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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:11 am

    Hole wrote:There is a video on Zvezda that shows some of these new weapons/systems. You can see that these Karakurt version does not only have 16 silos for cruise missiles but another VLS system behind the funnel.

    It must be for 9m100 or tor since you can see there is no pantsir in the back as in the original design.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:27 am

    Hole wrote:There is a video on Zvezda that shows some of these new weapons/systems. You can see that these Karakurt version does not only have 16 silos for cruise missiles but another VLS system behind the funnel.

    This is quite a healthy approach provided that they keep majority of components from vanilla Karakurt

    They will get much superior platform for practically same price and build time

    With Zircon coming around something like this will be quite welcome, basically a small vessel that will pose huge risk for much larger and expensive enemy ships which would require a lot of resources dedicated to keeping track of them thus reducing pressure on other much more valuable vessels and especially locations



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    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:55 am

    Ship will be a few metres longer, that´s it.

    To the air defence system: as the first ship was put into water and I saw the first pic from above I noticed that instead of the Pantsir-M system there was enough space to fit a Redut VLS system. It seems, someone is listening to me. Laughing
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:46 am

    Ship will be a few metres longer, that´s it.

    Then they should build all the already started ships to this level if it is only a matter of lenght. They are small ship, it must easy to make them longer even if they are already started as it is the same design. Even the one finished could go back in shipyard, be cut and add the second uksk.

    They could have proposed this design since the start of the project. Actually they shoukd have shown even a Gorshkov with different numbers of VLS to the MoD so that they decide the best design instead of making one.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 am

    Isos wrote:
    Ship will be a few metres longer, that´s it.

    Then they should build all the already started ships to this level if it is only a matter of lenght. They are small ship, it must easy to make them longer even if they are already started as it is the same design. Even the one finished could go back in shipyard, be cut and add the second uksk.

    They could have proposed this design since the start of the project. Actually they shoukd have shown even a Gorshkov with different numbers of VLS to the MoD so that they decide the best design instead of making one.

    Adding double the amount of VLS tubes plus entire new AA system is not something you can do on the fly


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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:14 pm

    Hole wrote:There is a video on Zvezda that shows some of these new weapons/systems. You can see that these Karakurt version does not only have 16 silos for cruise missiles but another VLS system behind the funnel.

    Here is video:
    (not much else there)

    And here is still from that video, it looks like it's a bit longer than just several meters, most likely they will add another central hull segment and modify rear superstructure. Could have more range as well but who knows.

    There are 2x4 AA launchers (Redut most likely) and two CIWS.

    And are those torpedo tubes in the back?

    This looks like very well rounded package and with readily available components, hopefully the go with it.   thumbsup
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:32 pm

    8 redut cells for 32 9m100 or 8 9m96 which would be hard to use with its small radar at max range unless if they want to use the 150km version against patrol aircraft and cover subs with it. Their radar should have no problem tracking a p8 at 150km.

    The 2×6 boxes seems to be paket nk which suppose a sonar in the front.

    It's a little frigate. Will need many more crew to operate compare to original Karakurt. But the role it has is mostly done by Steregoushy class variants which have paket redut and uksk.

    So they want the smaller karakurt to do the role of bigger corvettes while those corvettes would do the work of frigates while frigates is what they really need but in the same time they say corvette can replace them whike they never left russian territorial waters.

    I think they are kinda lost.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:40 pm

    Isos wrote:.....It's a little frigate. .

    It's barely a corvette



    Isos wrote:....Will need many more crew to operate compare to original Karakurt. But the role it has is mostly done by Steregoushy class variants which have paket redut and uksk. .

    They will need extra 10 people at most

    Karakurt has complement of 39 while Steregushi has 99

    It's not even close



    Isos wrote:....I think they are kinda lost.

    I think they know exactly what they are doing

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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:51 pm

    They will need extra 10 people at most

    Karakurt has complement of 39 while Steregushi has 99

    It's not even close

    Depend how long you want to use during deployment.
    If you plan to use it for days like a corvette is used you will need crew rotation inside the ship so you can multiply by 2 the total crew.

    Missile boats are use for a couple of hours just to fire their missiles and their air def system is just to defend themselves during those couple of hours.

    I think they know exactly what they are doing

    If they knew so well they would have asked the original karanurt to be increased in size to fit 2 uksk.  And they would have asked to increase the number of uksk on gorshkov from the start. And they wouldn't have 3 or 4 different steregouchshy variant in service.

    They are screwing up and it's time to replace the decision makers because if those mistakes happen with destroyers, cruisers and carriers there won't be a new serie of ship to correct them. They will have unwanted big ships for the next 40 years.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:03 pm

    Isos wrote:......If you plan to use it for days like a corvette .....

    It's a missile ship with extra features not a corvette

    Two weeks same as always



    Isos wrote:.....They are screwing up and it's time to replace the decision makers because if those mistakes happen with destroyers, cruisers and carriers there won't be a new serie of ship to correct them. They will have unwanted big ships for the next 40 years.

    There won't be any destroyers, cruisers and carriers for decades to come

    Large frigates in foreseeable future




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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:37 pm

    The model features an exhaust stack on the upper superstructure instead of the usual near-waterline exhaust ports. Indicative of a propulsion upgrade to MGTs instead of diesels?

    Its a significant increase in length, maybe 30% on the standard 22800, so an engine upgrade would be needed to maintain performance.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:16 am

    The armament includes:
    2x8 UKSK universal vertical launchers, 9M100 anti-aircraft missiles in vertical launchers on the aft superstructure, 2X4-launchers of the Paket-NK anti-torpedo protection complex, one 76-mm artillery mount and two modified 30-mm anti-aircraft artillery systems

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3892028.html
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:25 am

    George1 wrote:The armament includes:
    2x8 UKSK universal vertical launchers, 9M100 anti-aircraft missiles in vertical launchers on the aft superstructure, 2X4-launchers of the Paket-NK anti-torpedo protection complex, one 76-mm artillery mount and two modified 30-mm anti-aircraft artillery systems

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3892028.html


    That looks more like 2x6 Paket launchers with two top tubes being larger than others for some reason

    Some folks call this anti-sub version but I don't think it would fit the bill because it has no helicopter which would be far more useful for anti-sub work than anything else which was added

    Plus there don't seem to be any sonars on it

    This looks more like anti-ship/land-attack boat with Paket-NK added for self protection against enemy torpedos

    They could have decided to change propulsion because diesel engines have been delivered at very unsatisfactory pace so they decided to use benefits provided by CODAG and add some features

    This new version if built will be doing same job as vanilla Karakurt while being much better at it





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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:27 am

    They talked about a ASW karakurt. Maybe it is this one.

    Plus there don't seem to be any sonars on it

    And how would they use paket nk if there is no sonar ? Put their heads into water and listen with their ears ?! lol1
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    Post  Hole on Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:38 am

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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 am

    Isos wrote:They talked about a ASW karakurt. Maybe it is this one.

    Plus there don't seem to be any sonars on it

    And how would they use paket nk if there is no sonar ? Put their heads into water and listen with their ears ?! lol1

    Detecting torpedo coming at you is lot simpler than looking for submarines

    Torpedos aren't exactly quiet

    But if you see a sonar on that thing do share because there's nothing on it

    Wasting all that space on what supposed to be anti-sub ship at the expense of helicopter is epic stupidity

    You hunt subs with helicopters





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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:01 pm

    If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:07 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    It's must of been a full year and a half since you last posted, welcome back! I also agree, the INF is dead so keep on 'trucking!'
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    Post  william.boutros on Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:14 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    They should probably sell those Buyan-Ms and build Karakurt with missles. They are good for Vietnam, Algeria, Syria, Indonesia and co.
    They also need to invest in a dozen stretched Gorshkov and stop producing short series of vessels.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:50 pm


    These new Karakurts are simple evolution of regular ones not a replacement for larger vessels

    It all comes down to new missiles

    New Karakurts would be cheap floating missile trucks capable of defending themselves against torpedos and missiles/planes long enough to retaliate with Onix/Zircon against closest enemy vessel

    For enemy it would mean trading a destroyer for a tiny missile ship in the best case scenario while the worst case scenario would be... unthinkable and unacceptable

    As for land based component they need to keep making missile trucks, ones with six missiles per truck and six times as many trucks than originally planned

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    It's must of been a full year and a half since you last posted, welcome back! I also agree, the INF is dead so keep on 'trucking!'

    Ships offers more flexibility in the use of kalibr than a truck that is limited to mai land borders.

    That becomes less and less important as the range of missiles increase but it is still important as we can see in Syria, operations can be far away and surrounded by enemy countries above which you can't use your weapons.

    Missile boat are a cheap way of having 8 or 16 ready to fire missiles anywhere you want.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:28 am

    Wow thats a really interesting change.

    Reverts to the first version of the mast with apparently Positiv radar.
    8* Redut seems a weird choice for SAMs, fine if its quad-packed 9M100 but why make that change unless Pantsir-M development is in trouble? (Which I think it may well be given the non-appearance of production modules at the wall of Pella)
    The new Tor shown next to the Udaloy model in the other thread seems like a better fit.
    Or they are Tor modules?
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:14 am

    Interesting aerial angle of one of the Kerch ships
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:39 am

    hoom wrote:Wow thats a really interesting change.

    Reverts to the first version of the mast with apparently Positiv radar.
    8* Redut seems a weird choice for SAMs, fine if its quad-packed 9M100 but why make that change unless Pantsir-M development is in trouble? (Which I think it may well be given the non-appearance of production modules at the wall of Pella)
    The new Tor shown next to the Udaloy model in the other thread seems like a better fit.
    Or they are Tor modules?


    Whichever they are I think that their primary purpose is missile defense not anti-aircraft work

    Basically this ship would be Karakurt on steroids, twice the UKSK and enough anti-torpedo and anti-missile defenses to last long enough to all launch those missiles at the closest available target group even in worst case scenario

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    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:18 am

    Must have happened one day or another. Contrary to what many say here, delays are an issue for russian navy.

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    The Russian MoD has taken the Pella Shipyard to court seeking 2.93 billion rubles over the delayed delivery of the  Mytishchi Project 22800 Karakurt-class small missile ship.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1214328586037071873

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