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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:36 pm

    Some mess-hall shots
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 06-7380233-img-20190209-135710
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 06-7380249-img-20190209-135741
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 06-7380261-img-20190209-142153
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:25 pm

    2nd boat to start sea trials soon https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6339175
    The Pella Shipbuilding Plant (St. Petersburg) is finishing the commissioning work of the Typhoon main engines of the small rocket ship (MRK), the second representative of the 22800 Karakurt project, the carrier of the Caliber cruise missiles. The ship can begin sea trials already in mid-May, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS on Tuesday.

    “Now the main engines are connected to the ship. I think that until the ice comes down, the ship will not go anywhere, most likely the Typhoon will be running in mid-May,” the agency’s source said.

    Another TASS source in the industry said that the ship’s test of sea trials could take place on April 25, if the Pella had time to complete the installation and connection of the power plant.

    And some status pics
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 14-7405369-22800-tajfun-sovetsk-ssz-pella-14.04.2019
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 14-7405389-22800-shkval-ssz-pella-14.04.2019
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 14-7405401-22800-burya-ssz-pella-14.04.2019
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 14-7405405-22800-mrk-577-584-578-ssz-pella-14.04.2019
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:06 am

    Mytst... Mychtys... Mistch... first boat
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 26-7444621-img-4704
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 27-7444625-img-4716
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:55 am

    hoom wrote:Mytst... Mychtys... Mistch... first boat
    ...

    What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

    Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

    How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

    Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

    How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101

    The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.  I must ask them if they are tooling every piece by hand as no engine manufacture is that fucking slow.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:28 am

    What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name
    Well can't really blame the shipyard ppl, it was a late change so they did what they could to put the new name on for the Acceptance ceremony.
    In the above mess hall pics you can see some of the internal stuff has the new name, others the old.

    The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.
    Its Buyan-M & Rubin border patrol ships that are getting the Chinese diesels.

    22800s all have the Zvezda engines, at least the ones that actually have engines.
    I'm not going to argue that things got better in recent years here, the evidence is if anything it seems to have gotten worse silent
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:46 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

    Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

    How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101

    The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.  I must ask them if they are tooling every piece by hand as no engine manufacture is that fucking slow.


    the company was not producing that many engines before, so it's possible that they did not have the personnel and / or the facilities to produce at a higher rate. Increasing rate of production may mean investing and building new production facilities, hiring and training new people,etc.

    Furthermore an engine company does not produce everything on its own. in the west most parts are subcontracted to smaller companies/suppliers and the engine manufacturer build only the bigger parts and test and assembled the final product.


    Maybe one of the suppliers is the bottleneck. This would mean that they would have also to modify the whole supply chain. This is the problem caused by underinvestment in the sector for decades.

    Maybe a solution could have been to review all the manufacturing processes and supply chain, including all the suppliers and their capabilities, with some competent officials from the russian government, and see which of these companies would have needed special help or funding, maybe also via part nationalisation, to ensure an higher rate of production.


    It is more than possible that there was also quite a bit of incompetence, corruption and incorrect behavior from the company management, but it is only an aggravating factor, not the main reason.

    To be fully capable in all engine needs for all ships classes and sizes is not something that can be reached in 3/4 years. Something has to be prioritized and something else instead will be done later.

    Concerning buyan-m engines, as far as I understand there is at the moment no russian naval diesel engine model currently in production that is compatible with those ships, and the germans broke the contract and refused to supply their engines. The Chineses had in production a licenced older version of that german engine, so it was the only possible solution without completely redesign the ships (and maybe scrap the hulls already part built). Maybe they can study those engines, reverse engineer them and try to improve and start production, but it is a process that will take years and it was not the priority, since they had to concentrate on many other products (zvezda engine manufacturer is also building the reductor gear for the gorshkov class frigates).
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:26 pm

    They could improve stealth design in the next ships.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:34 pm

    A major issue with Zvezda is that simultaneously with this big engine order for 22800s they've been busy setting up a brand new gearbox production facility & tasked with developing/testing/building gearboxes for the whole slew of in production ship designs.

    Its still a really bad situation & desperately in need of getting sorted.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:40 pm

    Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:44 pm

    No Vlad is right, the Karakutt's are slated to have kolomna Penza RUMO engines just like Rubin boats, Hoom quoted.

    Not all of them but the shipyard cannot prepare engines fast enough so they are sticking some Chinese engines into the class, which is a shame since those Chinese engines will make the ships a bit slower than the other ones. Better than leaving them on the side of a dock for years.

    Could easily replace the engines when they have spares I guess.

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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:09 pm

    Not all of them but the shipyard cannot prepare engines fast enough so they are sticking some Chinese engines into the class, which is a shame since those Chinese engines will make the ships a bit slower than the other ones. Better than leaving them on the side of a dock for years.
    There was some talk about doing that but last I recall was official denial that they would go ahead with it.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:07 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

    They came under new ownership last year and the parts were subcontracted to Kalashnikov Group. The problem is the financial situation of the plant, they hardly posted a profit in 2017 and with the delays of 2018 have suffered over $100 million in late fees. The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery. In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk. Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:23 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

    They came under new ownership last year and the parts were subcontracted to Kalashnikov Group.  The problem is the financial situation of the plant, they hardly posted a profit in 2017 and with the delays of 2018 have suffered over $100 million in late fees.  The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery.  In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk.  Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.  

    I wasn't aware worse then I thought.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:08 pm

    And what about these engines?

    https://flotprom.ru/2015/Мвмс53/

    google translate wrote:

    July 2, 2015

    A new generation diesel engine, the DM-185, built at the Ural diesel engine plant, is presented at the Sinara-Transport Machines booth. They can equip both surface ships, in particular corvettes, and submarines. The engine is planned to replace another diesel engine - DM-21.

    As the FlotProm correspondent was told at the company's stand, the engine consists of half of the domestic parts and has a Russian control system. 





    "The engine was created to solve the problems that arise with the engine DM-21", - said the source publication. According to a company representative, the DM-21 is currently being operated on the Zvezdochka rescue ship and is being installed on submarines of the Yasen and Borey projects. 

    He noted that besides the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the potential customers of the engine are the enterprise that sees the BRICS countries. 

    "At the request of the customer, the engine can be completed with various modifications, including it can be converted into a gas one," said a company representative. 

    The engine is high-speed, its resource is designed for 70,000 hours without overhaul. In addition, it has a large cylinder capacity and was designed by the newest technologies. 

    At the same time, the engine has drawbacks, according to the source, it is slightly heavier in weight than the engines of the German company MTU. 


    The full capacity of diesel engines DM-185: 0.7-4.9 MW; 
    Rotational speed corresponding to the total power: 1500, 1800, 1900 rpm; 
    Specific fuel consumption: not more than 204 g / kWh; 
    Specific oil consumption for waste: 0.4 g / kWh; 
    Specific weight: 3.7-4.7 kg \ kW; 
    Resource: 40000-70000 hours; 
    Cylinder power: 120-234 kW.



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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:14 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:And what about these engines?

    https://flotprom.ru/2015/Мвмс53/

    As the FlotProm correspondent was told at the company's stand, the engine consists of half of the domestic parts and has a Russian control system. 

    The question is where are the other half of those parts coming from? If it isn't a friendly country there is not much to do with it.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:14 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:And what about these engines?

    https://flotprom.ru/2015/Мвмс53/

    As the FlotProm correspondent was told at the company's stand, the engine consists of half of the domestic parts and has a Russian control system. 

    The question is where are the other half of those parts coming from?  If it isn't a friendly country there is not much to do with it.

    I believe the other half was german... Neutral
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:21 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

    They came under new ownership last year and the parts were subcontracted to Kalashnikov Group.  The problem is the financial situation of the plant, they hardly posted a profit in 2017 and with the delays of 2018 have suffered over $100 million in late fees.  The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery.  In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk.  Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.  

    I wasn't aware worse then I thought.
    anyway kalashnikov is currently a very successful complex and already build several small patrol ships. If they are participating to the building process it is a very positive fact.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:08 am

    The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery. In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk. Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.

    What a crazy situation... sounds like the state is just shooting itself in the foot.

    Also sounds like a huge opportunity... a private retirement investment fund could make good money loaning the engine maker the money at 15% interest... the company could keep the money and continue to use it even after the government pays the funds to the engine maker... the engine maker can use the loan to pay everyone that needs to be paid and buy the materials they need to buy, and then when the government pays them they will have money to repay the loan with interest and expand production for the next order, to improve production tooling to make it cheaper to produce the engines next time so they make increased profit. When they get the next order they will still have the money the private retirement investment fund invested... which might be for a fixed term of perhaps 20 years... the trick will be to use the money wisely to maximise production and pay everyone on time so there are no financial penalties.

    Now if they are a good business there should be quite a bit of profit created in this sort of arrangement, so a portion of the profit goes to pay the investors their 15% which is peanuts compared with what normal investors buying shares in the company expect, but is a good return on a long period loan of 20 years.

    The investors get a return, the engine maker gets loans to buy products and components and materials when needed, and the government can continue to just pay 10% up front.

    The extra money should eliminate delays created by lack of available funds...

    Of course the government paying 50-75% of the value would also solve the problem... I suspect they don't pay out more to prevent fraud or CEOs disappearing with cash advances...

    Something must be going right because CK posted a profit increase of something like 280% recently... perhaps they are getting paid now...
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    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:51 am

    What a crazy situation... sounds like the state is just shooting itself in the foot.
    I presume its an anti-corruption thing.
    You get an advance but have to actually produce stuff to get the actual $$$.
    It seems to be why a lot of projects get financing (as opposed to 'funding') delays though.

    Edit: though I seem to recall Import Substitution programs get a much bigger or even full initial funding?
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    Post  hoom on Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:56 am

    Couple more pics
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 28-7448577-dsc04415
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 28-7448585-dsc04417
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 02, 2019 2:32 am

    Management shuffling at Zvezda https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F9/
    NPK "Star" headed by ex-director of "Barnaultransmash"
    April 30, 2019 at 19:27 Topic: Industry
    The Zvezda research and production concern, the management company of the St. Petersburg Diesel Building Plant of the same name, changed its manager. The corresponding entry in the register, according to the information-analytical service"Kommersant Card Index", made on April 19th.

    The new director of Zvezda was the ex-head of Barnaultransmash, Viktor Silivakin, who replaced Viktor Lesch on this post. Silivakin also headed the diesel plant of PJSC Zvezda as CEO-Managing Director. The previous head of the company, Kirill Kuklinsky, remains there as an adviser, an informed industry source told Mil.Press FlotProm.

    In PJSC "Zvezda", the publication was confirmed by the change of leadership, however, they refrained from additional comments.
    A second industry source familiar with the situation told Mil.Press FlotProm that the diesel and gear production assets of PJSC Zvezda and Zvezda Reducer JSC can be consolidated. Auction for the sale of 92.57% of the state shares of "Star Reducer", announced the "Russian auction house",canceled on behalf of the Federal Property Management Agency.
    The production chains of these two enterprises are linked to each other, ex-head of NPK Zvezda Viktor Lesh told the publication in February 2019.

    Viktor Silivakin headed Barnaultransmash (part of the GAZ Group). Victor Lesh was led by JSC "SPC" Star "with the May 2018 Kirill Kuklinsky to go to." Star "worked in JSC" Sinara-Transport Machines ".
    Hopefully means more 22800 engine building action?!
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    Post  hoom on Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm

    2nd shaping up for trials
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 10-7486129-22800-tajfun-ssz-pella-10.05.2019

    Edit: the 3rd still some way away
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 10-7486145-22800-burya-ssz-pella-10.05.2019

    Edit2: above is 4th, this is 3rd
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 12-7488093-22800-shkval-ssz-pella-10.05.2019
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 21, 2019 12:38 am

    2nd gone to Ladoga for tests



    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516917-2019-05-20-11-34-58-p1510229
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516917-2019-05-20-12-15-27-p1510426
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516917-2019-05-20-12-17-42-p1510484
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516917-2019-05-20-12-20-13-p1510526
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516997-2019-05-20-12-21-13-p1510587
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516997-2019-05-20-12-21-23-p1510593
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7516997-2019-05-20-12-23-06-p1510702
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7518501-22800-tajfun-sovetsk-neva-20.05.2019

    2 next to each other on the wall at Pella makes for good comparison of the radar/mast setup
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7518385-tjtoe7ljnoo
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 20-7518389-xvv-nolkoya
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 28, 2019 1:41 am

    At speed
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 28 27-7538745-uqjuh-o5mga

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