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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:56 am

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3548133.html
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 6589861_original
    BMPD thinks this one is actually going to be built in Zelenodolsk.

    The big question now is if Zvezda can manage to start putting out the engines at reasonable rate.
    I'd like to see more hulls brought up to near complete status in the meantime though so that engines can be slotted in when available & nearly immediately start trials.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:03 pm

    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3548133.html
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 6589861_original
    BMPD thinks this one is actually going to be built in Zelenodolsk.

    The big question now is if Zvezda can manage to start putting out the engines at reasonable rate.
    I'd like to see more hulls brought up to near complete status in the meantime though so that engines can be slotted in when available & nearly immediately start trials.

    Ship`s plate says clearly it will be built at Zelenodolsk shipyard. Engines are still a problematic issue! They are light, powerful, but they have certain service limitations. I don`t understand. At their heyday, they were capable of producing about 100 engines a year, no less. What happened?!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:[
    'Tucha' should mean 'hale' (in Serbian it means 'brawl' pwnd lol1 )

    in Russian ( туча ) AFAIK "heavy dark cloud" which is likely start to intense rain" but best would be ask native, but not form NZ lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:21 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3548133.html
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 6589861_original
    BMPD thinks this one is actually going to be built in Zelenodolsk.

    The big question now is if Zvezda can manage to start putting out the engines at reasonable rate.
    I'd like to see more hulls brought up to near complete status in the meantime though so that engines can be slotted in when available & nearly immediately start trials.

    Ship`s plate says clearly it will be built at Zelenodolsk shipyard. Engines are still a problematic issue! They are light, powerful, but they have certain service limitations. I don`t understand. At their heyday, they were capable of producing about 100 engines a year, no less. What happened?!

    Source on engine issue.  Cause engine issue has been resolved since last year.

    The issue actually has to do with MTU engines of a specific type were being built by one company.  Only recently they were forced to allow other companies to also manufacture the same engine.
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    Post  kumbor on Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:04 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3548133.html
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 6589861_original
    BMPD thinks this one is actually going to be built in Zelenodolsk.

    The big question now is if Zvezda can manage to start putting out the engines at reasonable rate.
    I'd like to see more hulls brought up to near complete status in the meantime though so that engines can be slotted in when available & nearly immediately start trials.

    Ship`s plate says clearly it will be built at Zelenodolsk shipyard. Engines are still a problematic issue! They are light, powerful, but they have certain service limitations. I don`t understand. At their heyday, they were capable of producing about 100 engines a year, no less. What happened?!

    Source on engine issue.  Cause engine issue has been resolved since last year.

    The issue actually has to do with MTU engines of a specific type were being built by one company.  Only recently they were forced to allow other companies to also manufacture the same engine.

    @ Mike the terrible... Sorry, what MTU engines... Germans are complying to sanctions against Russia. DagDizel JSC had a licence to build some models of 396 range, which are outdated. Russia didn`t resolve huge problems of gas turbines, for the production of which it has full documentation. Four years of standstill! Shame! And state of the art diesels, fast revving, are not in production in Russia, except Zvezda 7 row radials, There is a chinese alternative of suspicious quality. Russia to rely on imported high speed diesels, do not joke with me, it is simply PROHIBITED IN SUBSTANCE!
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    Post  hoom on Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:12 pm

    Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

    Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

    Also '2nd' boat is apparently still waiting for engines...
    (I think its 2nd serial = 3rd overall or the actual 2nd had a fault requiring replacement)
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    Post  hoom on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:58 am

    2nd boat earlier in the month
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 09-7273349-22800-tajfun-sovetsk-ssz-pella-08.03.2019
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    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:51 pm

    1st @Baltysk
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 23-7328477-img-3062-kopiya
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 23-7328597-img-3069

    2nd, 3rd & 4th @Pella
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 28-7348177-pella

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    Post  hoom on Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:23 pm

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 29-7354353-img-3300
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 29-7354357-img-3345
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 29-7354365-img-3384
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 27 29-7354369-img-3419
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:39 am

    hoom wrote:Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

    Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

    And why is zvezda constantly delaying? We may be seeing izd.30s arriving in service earlier than any Russian warship engine at this rate.
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    Post  southpark on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:53 am

    It takes time to develop engines and test their reliability...typically 4 to 10 years with decent funding and whether it has a base platform already or not.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:04 am

    southpark wrote:It takes time to develop engines and test their reliability...typically 4 to 10 years with decent funding and whether it has a base platform already or not.
    The zvezda M507 diesel engines for the karakurt are old soviet era engines that were already in service for decades.


    Last edited by bolshevik345 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:05 am

    It takes time to develop engines and test their reliability
    Except the M-507 is an existing Soviet era design with 2* 56 cylinder M-504 linked together.
    The problem is Zvezda were producing single digit numbers of M-504 per year in the post-Soviet era, suddenly got an order for 18*3*2 = 108 M-504 engines (6048 cylinders) ASAP.
    The Management made apparently unsustainable (possibly outright fraudulent) claims about their ability to scale-up production.

    On top of that (& partially excusing) they've been in parallel developing an entirely new ship gearbox manufacturing facility and design/building gearboxes and test-stands for a whole slew of ships.
    Not just ships but Naval ships expected to do ASW work -> be significantly more quiet than normal ship gearboxes.

    Has been big concern that a lot of institutional knowledge has been tied up in very senior & even post-retirement staff.
    Recent post at Balancer forum indicates several of those have recently quit silent
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:10 am

    hoom wrote:
    It takes time to develop engines and test their reliability
    Except the M-507 is an existing Soviet era design with 2* 56 cylinder M-504 linked together.
    The problem is Zvezda were producing single digit numbers of M-504 per year in the post-Soviet era, suddenly got an order for 18*3*2 = 108 M-504 engines (6048 cylinders) ASAP.
    The Management made apparently unsustainable (possibly outright fraudulent) claims about their ability to scale-up production.

    On top of that (& partially excusing) they've been in parallel developing an entirely new ship gearbox manufacturing facility and design/building gearboxes and test-stands for a whole slew of ships.
    Not just ships but Naval ships expected to do ASW work -> be significantly more quiet than normal ship gearboxes.

    Has been big concern that a lot of institutional knowledge has been tied up in very senior & even post-retirement staff.
    Recent post at Balancer forum indicates several of those have recently quit silent
    So the problem is lack of good mechanical engineers in Zvezda and lack of enough plant machinery? Machinery for producing soviet era engines should be very simple to come by, since they're not cutting edge technology.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:45 am

    I think mainly the staff.
    But the Soviet gearbox manufacturing was in Ukraine -> that is a brand new facility with modern machines & presumably nobody/few with experience making naval gearboxes.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:51 am

    hoom wrote:Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

    Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

    Also '2nd' boat is apparently still waiting for engines...
    (I think its 2nd serial = 3rd overall or the actual 2nd had a fault requiring replacement)

    Engines are being produced by more than one company now. Unless it's referring to other turbines.  But as you said, possibly not ready for full production yet.

    I think everyone will be happy to know that the rules on getting things delivered on time or face legal consequences is now being applied everywhere in the MiC. So Zvezda will have no choice but to find third party companies to make the engines.

    From what I read months ago was M50 engines class can be built by other plants and that other plants were already geared to manufacture them.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:17 am

    Engines are being produced by more than one company now.
    There has been talk of doing that, there is no announcement or pics of it actually happening.
    Meanwhile there are a bunch of boats sitting at pier floating way above waterline & persistent suggestion that they have no engines yet because only Zvezda is building them and very slowly.

    Its still better than relying on imported engines.
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    Post  kumbor on Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:01 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    hoom wrote:Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

    Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

    Also '2nd' boat is apparently still waiting for engines...
    (I think its 2nd serial = 3rd overall or the actual 2nd had a fault requiring replacement)

    Engines are being produced by more than one company now. Unless it's referring to other turbines.  But as you said, possibly not ready for full production yet.

    I think everyone will be happy to know that the rules on getting things delivered on time or face legal consequences is now being applied everywhere in the MiC.  So Zvezda will have no choice but to find third party companies to make the engines.

    From what I read months ago was M50 engines class can be built by other plants and that other plants were already geared to manufacture them.

    That`s totally untrue. You obviously mingle M50 engine range with M500 engine range. M50 is typically e.g. 12ЧСПН18/20, while M500 is e.g. 56ЧСПН16/17 - М504 /112ЧСПН16/17 -М507.Means No of cyl.,4tact, supercharged, with built-in reverse-reduction gear, bore x stroke 160x170mm.Long term reliance on import engines is impossible and prohibited by law! Even procurement of MTU4000 for some hulls has been made in order to copy it and arrange domestic production in the future, but the sanctions were tightened earlier. Maybe new range of Chelyabinsk diesels could be marinised perspectively!?
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:22 am

    They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

    The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines. I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:46 am

    Experience is a good teacher, but sometimes innovation is helped by a lack of experience.

    An aspect is reliability with a brand new (for them) product... it does not matter if you make a dozen if the first three you put in to ships reveals a problem that needs fixing on all 12 engines and the design and production of future engines... sometimes it is better to just make 3-4 engines and put them into ships for normal operational use for a period of time and then examine them and see what is wearing and what is not and modify the design and production materials and then make some more engines and update the existing models with new more durable parts and continue from there... it is by no means a quick process, and rushing into mass production is actually very stupid if it turns out they all need complete redesigns... which would be embarrassing because of all the break downs and expensive because you need to take ships out of service and fix them when you should be cranking out new ships with new engines...
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    Post  kumbor on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:18 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

    The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines.  I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.

    Pr.20380 corvettes (light frigates) use completely different engines of Kolomna plant (Коломенский завод дизельных двигателей). These engines are something like well known Pielstick PA6V280, marked as 10D49, in 12 or 16 cylinders in V arrangement and running at full power @1100rpm.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:27 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

    The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines.  I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.

    Pr.20380 corvettes (light frigates) use completely different engines of Kolomna plant (Коломенский завод дизельных двигателей). These engines are something like well known Pielstick PA6V280, marked as 10D49, in 12 or 16 cylinders in V arrangement and running at full power @1100rpm.

    Premise holds the same though. Engines may be different but solution is the same. If one plant cannot produce, it will be moved to other locations. Since these shipyards are no longer individuals but under USC and Rostec. There was an article from vpk.name here somewhere that links to about expanding production of corvette turbines to multiple companies. I just do not remember which model to be exact.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:01 am

    What they need to do is develop engine families and expand their practical uses... unify engine design so the engine for the train is able to be used on a ship or as a generator engine on a bigger vessel.

    They should be getting to the point where they are exporting diesel engines to China...
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:What they need to do is develop engine families and expand their practical uses... unify engine design so the engine for the train is able to be used on a ship or as a generator engine on a bigger vessel.

    They should be getting to the point where they are exporting diesel engines to China...

    It goes like that when little Garry dreams!!! Engines cqn be high speed, medium speed and slow speed, slow revving. Every peculiar type of engine is optimal for peculiar type of vessel, or combat ship. FAC/corvette is never propelled with MAN B/W engine of 500 tons, 30.000SHP at 100rpm! Marine engines are specially built with seawater cooling system etc. Rail traction engines need relatively small intervention for on board use. Much depends also on load factors...
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:09 am

    Garry's point may have some validity if the propulsion primarily heads towards electric otherwise what you said is generally true except engines are designed to scale with in some parameters basically a platform to support various workloads and output's just like some automobile engines are much more tunable than others. But they will still be separate platforms marine vs terrestrial vs aircraft for the reasons you mentioned...

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