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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:29 pm


    Is there a ship class in production in Russia now that has engines available?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:04 pm

    20380/5 & 22160 with Kolomna diesels?
    Notably the early 20380s had significant teething issues with the engines but seems to be sorted now.
    But 20385s are expected to be underpowered (were supposed to be getting more powerful MAN).
    Buyan-M with the Chinese import if the fixes for Vyshny Volochek worked out.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:29 pm

    hoom wrote:20380/5 & 22160 with Kolomna diesels?
    Notably the early 20380s had significant teething issues with the engines but seems to be sorted now.
    But 20385s are expected to be underpowered (were supposed to be getting more powerful MAN).
    Buyan-M with the Chinese import if the fixes for Vyshny Volochek worked out................]

    So of all classes and one-off models only ship that can be properly built is Bykov-class patrol vessel?

    Funny thing especially how anyone and everyone keeps calling them underarmed, useless and redundant money laundering schemes.

    Especially since it's usually same crowd that rants about nuclear destroyers and supercarriers and dismiss submarines as inferior platforms.

    Missile ships were supposed to be one saving grace of Russian surface fleet but it's pretty obvious that whole thing will not be going anywhere in first half of this century. Probably not ever given INF termination.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:48 am

    Missile ships were supposed to be one saving grace of Russian surface fleet but it's pretty obvious that whole thing will not be going anywhere in first half of this century. Probably not ever given INF termination.

    The loss of the INF treaty will likely stimulate growth in the development of short and intermediate range weapons... the more platforms you have able to use such weapons is the key to getting them into service quickly... in that sense the Navy will have a huge advantage, though the Army does have a lot of Iskander units deployed too.
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    medo

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Is there a ship class in production in Russia now that has engines available?

    Kilo submarines, Steregushi corvettes, Ivan gren landing ships, Yurij Ivanov inteligence ship, Alexandrite minesweepers.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:25 pm

    medo wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Is there a ship class in production in Russia now that has engines available?

    Kilo submarines, Steregushi corvettes, Ivan gren landing ships, Yurij Ivanov inteligence ship, Alexandrite minesweepers.

    Kilo is submarine, they have no issues with subs

    Gren is cancelled and Ivanov and Alexandrit are not combat ships

    Steregushii is underpowered with Russian engines, they were designed for MTU

    Question: why would they design ship around an engine that is made by nation that the ship in question is potentially supposed to fight? And if they didn't expect geopolitical situation to be like this then why did they design ship around obsolete doctrine?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:31 pm

    It was designed by Yeltsin in 1990s during the dream of east-west eternal friendship...who knows what was he drinking...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:39 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:It was designed by Yeltsin in 1990s during the dream of east-west eternal friendship...who knows what was he drinking...

    Thing is that in situation where there is east-west eternal friendship there is absolutely no need whatsoever for this type of heavily armed short-range ships that focus on anti-sub operations

    So they didn't even do that version of the job properly
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:42 pm

    the engine isn't really holding it back since they still use the same two powerplants but the desiel electric units are now 4 I believe over the initial 2.

    AT least until they complete the other engines.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:49 pm

    Better underpowered than not working like Ford one year in commission
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:49 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Better underpowered than not working like Ford one year in commission

    They aren't actually really underpowered. Not sure were papa got that from. Unless he means because it now has to use 4 desil electric generators rather than 2 MTU ones. Then he is correct.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:13 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Better underpowered than not working like Ford one year in commission

    Causing comparing a very small missile ship to a Supercarrier makes total sense.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:01 pm

    Of course, you can complain that Russia... that does not make anything and has an economy that compares with Texas, is having some problems with ship engines, but you can't complain that the worlds only self proclaimed hyper power can't get aircraft carriers right even though it has two dozen carriers in service right now... and that is without sanctions...


    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:13 pm

    More launch



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3389208.html has a bunch of pics

    Also big galleries at http://foto-i-mir.ru/22800-burya-181023-1/ & http://foto-i-mir.ru/22800-burya-181023-2/

    Good close up of the radar, looks a bit different? Maybe just the paint.


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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm

    Pella needs a larger dry dock and larger cranes.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:18 pm

    This is "Burya" the 5th ship





    Pantsyr-M


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:Of course, you can complain that Russia... that does not make anything and has an economy that compares with Texas, is having some problems with ship engines, but you can't complain that the worlds only self proclaimed hyper power can't get aircraft carriers right even though it has two dozen carriers in service right now... and that is without sanctions...


    I figured you would come riding in to defend, always do.

    First off I simply said comparing a ship less than 1000 tons to a ship that is what 90 times bigger and a ship class that IS much more complex oh and they don't even use the same propulsion type.

    It's a silly comparison, There is nothing similar about the vessels to warrant it.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:00 am

    Two programmes to build ships... both having problems...

    If Russia has no excuses because building small ships is easy, and the US can have all the problems in the world because making aircraft carriers is hard then I understand... hyperpowers are pussies and need their comfort blankies... why are you making excuses for the companies making carriers for the US Navy?

    I figured you would come riding in to defend, always do.

    I wouldn't need to defend if you weren't attacking... as usual. Razz
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Two programmes to build ships... both having problems...

    If Russia has no excuses because building small ships is easy, and the US can have all the problems in the world because making aircraft carriers is hard then I understand... hyperpowers are pussies and need their comfort blankies... why are you making excuses for the companies making carriers for the US Navy?

    I figured you would come riding in to defend, always do.

    I wouldn't need to defend if you weren't attacking... as usual.  Razz

    US has deeper problems with the litoral ships.

    They delivered a lot of them without working weapons systems.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  kumbor on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:27 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Two programmes to build ships... both having problems...

    If Russia has no excuses because building small ships is easy, and the US can have all the problems in the world because making aircraft carriers is hard then I understand... hyperpowers are pussies and need their comfort blankies... why are you making excuses for the companies making carriers for the US Navy?

    I figured you would come riding in to defend, always do.

    I wouldn't need to defend if you weren't attacking... as usual.  Razz

    US has deeper problems with the litoral ships.

    They delivered a lot of them without working weapons systems.

    A lot... there are a few LCS in service, 5-6. Overpowered, with high sped of over 40kts not needed, undergunned, underequipped, too big. Say they are stealth, but how to make invisible a warship with 3.000 tons D? Impossible. They are not enough stealth to act as MCM ships.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Two programmes to build ships... both having problems...

    If Russia has no excuses because building small ships is easy, and the US can have all the problems in the world because making aircraft carriers is hard then I understand... hyperpowers are pussies and need their comfort blankies... why are you making excuses for the companies making carriers for the US Navy?

    I figured you would come riding in to defend, always do.

    I wouldn't need to defend if you weren't attacking... as usual.  Razz

    Yes because saying it's silly to compare a small missile ship to a supercarrier is attacking.

    Now did I ever make any excuses? No I did not. supercarriers are much much much much more complex to build then Small Missile Ships, I am not excusing any issues merely that if you need to compare something at least make it an equal comparison. If you cannot handle criticism for Russia stop being an admin, I see people here all the time bash the carrier and other things and I mostly say nothing.

    singular, for example, mention the Litoral ships, that is a much better comparison.

    Two totally different ships, different functions, and max different size, propulsion etc the only things those boats have in common is they float.

    Oh girl you kill me sometimes, when the russians make their own Super then you can Compare the Ford class with that because then it's a fair comparison.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:21 pm

    singular, for example, mention the Litoral ships, that is a much better comparison.

    It also has issues. Zumwalt also has issues. Ford has issues. UK destroyers have such bad engines they can be heard at hundreds of km. They are all put in service with something that sucks and need costly reparations.

    At least russia solves the problem on the first unit that takes time to be ready but at least the follow on ships are just like expected. That happened with all their classes. Also with su-57, contrary to f-35 which hundreds have been paid and will need upgrades to be ready and that will costs huge ammount of money.

    Russian way of doing things is better.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:51 pm

    it's silly to compare a small missile ship to a supercarrier

    It's silly to commission a ship only to stick to a schedule, even if it's not ready. Zumwalt suffered two engine breakdowns after commissioning. LCS suffered engine breakdown one month after commissioning and mission modules aren't working properly.

    Why have Russians taken a lot of time to commission Ivan Gren or Gorshkov?  

    Russians don't care how late they commission a ship and how big is their navy. It's better to be realistic, rather then idolise planned commission deadlines and 355-ship navy, even if it means keeping old non-modernised Ticonderogas and Arleigh Burkes "in service", even if not operational, so public doesn't get angry and you don't lose the elections.

    Russians navy is trended upward since 2000, while US is only dreaming about keeping status quo - world domination. But the world is changing. And it's time to start changing the strategy towards multipolarity, because in the world where combined Russian and Chinese navies are stronger than the US navy and Iran has huge fleet of submarines, the defensive powers are simply to strong to stick to offensive 11-CVN dream of world domination.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:11 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Yes because saying it's silly to compare a small missile ship to a supercarrier is attacking.

    Now did I ever make any excuses? No I did not. supercarriers are much much much much more complex to build then Small Missile Ships, I am not excusing any issues merely that if you need to compare something at least make it an equal comparison. If you cannot handle criticism for Russia stop being an admin, I see people here all the time bash the carrier and other things and I mostly say nothing.

    singular, for example, mention the Litoral ships, that is a much better comparison.

    Two totally different ships, different functions, and max different size, propulsion etc the only things those boats have in common is they float.

    Oh girl you kill me sometimes, when the russians make their own Super then you can Compare the Ford class with that because then it's a fair comparison.

    The US struggling /failed to develop the new Ford carrier ,the new destroyer and the new littoral ships.

    To make things worst the US stick to the original shipping schedule to make the numbers nice, but all ship built for unmatured/unfinished weapon systems, so they risking to have useless/not warcapable ships.

    It is better to make later the second/third / fourth/sixth carrier than the have five unusable .
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:21 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:..............
    The US struggling /failed to develop the new Ford carrier ,the new destroyer and the new littoral ships.
    ....

    Smallest of which dwarfs Karakurt and is still built faster so lets keep things in perspective

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