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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:07 am

    They reference TASS http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5412853
    Which quotes Borisov
    "Now the construction of the first three of these ships has begun at the Eastern shipyard, I think that with the release of new models interest in them will increase,"

    But the paragraph before seems to have him saying they are already in service in several fleets...
    According to him, currently the "Karakurts" are equipped with units of the Russian Navy, in particular, the Baltic, Northern, Black Sea fleets, the Caspian Flotilla.
    And its not just a Google translate thing, Yandex gives same translation Suspect

    Honesroc

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Honesroc on Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:32 am

    Tingsay wrote:I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.

    I understand the Steregushchiy class to be an ASW platform

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:00 am


    That 2nd boat must be pretty damn close to starting trials.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 am

    Honesroc wrote:
    Tingsay wrote:I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.

    I understand the Steregushchiy class to be an ASW platform

    What about this one?

    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/new-project-23420-small-anti-submarine-warfare-ship/

    miroslav

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  miroslav on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:48 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Honesroc wrote:
    Tingsay wrote:I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.

    I understand the Steregushchiy class to be an ASW platform

    What about this one?

    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/new-project-23420-small-anti-submarine-warfare-ship/

    Complete BS, the Bykov class, an existing ship that is in production, is 25% larger with all the room needed for all the bells and whistles necessary for ASW.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 am

    miroslav wrote:Complete BS, the Bykov class, an existing ship that is in production, is 25% larger with all the room needed for all the bells and whistles necessary for ASW.

    Not convinced.  The Bykov is a great vessel and carries the pre-requisite helo, but she lacks bow sonar, and despite what some think, adding such is a big engineering change.  A true ASW ship should also have a towed sonar array, torpedo launchers, a short-range MLRS like an RBK/RBU (don't underestimate these things in littoral settings...), and preferably a UKSK for an 8-pack of long range ASW missiles.  The Bykov can carry some of these, but not all, and while a suitably kitted-out Bykov can be a very useful long duration sub-hunter (PDragons idea of a Bykov working the SSBN bastions is a great example), there would still be a need for specialised fast-reaction ASW vessels with more comprehensive sensors and weapons.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:34 am

    3* 22800s at Zaliv, sometime about Feb/March via Yandex

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  kumbor on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:45 pm


    Project 23420 looks very interesting, but such a ship, of more than 1300tonsD must have dedicated SAM missiles, not only short range Gibka mount. Say, Pantsir-M.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:59 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    Project 23420 looks very interesting, but such a ship, of more than 1300tonsD must have dedicated SAM missiles, not only short range Gibka mount. Say, Pantsir-M.

    Nah, that project is dead-end. It doesn't even have helicopter hangar. A non-starter for anti-sub ship these days.

    ...........

    Bykov-class would be able to have RBK/RBU installed behind main gun instead of AA VLS or marine housing.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  miroslav on Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:04 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    miroslav wrote:Complete BS, the Bykov class, an existing ship that is in production, is 25% larger with all the room needed for all the bells and whistles necessary for ASW.

    Not convinced.  The Bykov is a great vessel and carries the pre-requisite helo, but she lacks bow sonar, and despite what some think, adding such is a big engineering change.  A true ASW ship should also have a towed sonar array, torpedo launchers, a short-range MLRS like an RBK/RBU (don't underestimate these things in littoral settings...), and preferably a UKSK for an 8-pack of long range ASW missiles.  The Bykov can carry some of these, but not all, and while a suitably kitted-out Bykov can be a very useful long duration sub-hunter (PDragons idea of a Bykov working the SSBN bastions is a great example), there would still be a need for specialised fast-reaction ASW vessels with more comprehensive sensors and weapons.


    I generally agree but I also think that Bykov can be updated to carry all those things.

    Installing a bow sonar is not easy, that's true, but not all ships meant for ASW have them or need them, many of them like the smaller Russian ASW corvettes and the Gepard class frigates have a hull mounted sonar and a variable depth sonar (the dipping kind) along with a towed array (frigates).

    Gepard class has the Zarnitsa sonar suite and the MGK-335EM-03 sonar, if any one has more info on these please share it!

    Bykov has plenty of speed and endurance and considering its a long patrol vessel it must be stable in high seas. It also has plenty of room.

    I do agree about the RBU-6000, is mandatory in all cases. With the new "smart-active" mines it is a very good system. In case of bigger ships, the British Duke class frigates only carry small caliber torpedoes, the Stingray, and use the helicopter as the main offensive platform for ASW, the 4 torpedo tubes (2 on each side) are more for self defense that anything else.  

    Bykov can be easily (relative term) updated to have a hull mounted sonar, towed array or dipping sonar at least, 2X4 launchers for Paket-NK torpedoes , RBU-6000, and there is the hello that can carry 1-2 torpedoes on its on plus a dipping sonar.

    The only think that troubles me about the Bykov class is that the superstructure is very weird, having a large open space at he back. A ship like this at the open sea will need a Pantsir-M for decent air protection but I don't know where they would put it and place the other stuff like the RBU-6000.

    Another thing that I would mention is that we still do not know how the back side of the ship is actually confgured, what are the dimension, will the top side be able to open like doors for a containerized launcher beneath etc.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:14 am

    I am surprised they have not developed a more modern stealthy version of the RBU-6000 launchers... I mean SAM arm launchers are now gone, so why not vertical launch RBU rockets... or even retractable launch bins that can be angled to fire rockets in specific directions...

    I remember seeing a mockup of a small patrol vessel that had a tiny VLS that certainly could have been decoy and jamming rockets...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:08 pm

    Testing continues


    Edit: another


    Edit2: again at the wall
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:35 pm

    Russian defense firm expects Iran to show interest in Karakurt-class missile corvettes

    The Project 22800 ships can expect strong demand on the market

    MOSCOW, August 20. /TASS/. The developers of Project 22800 ‘Karakurt’ missile corvettes expect a whole group of countries, including Iran, to display their interest in the warship’s export version, CEO of the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau Alexander Shlyakhtenko told TASS on Monday.

    "In experts’ estimates, the Project 22800 ships can expect strong demand from a considerable part of our traditional partners in the field of military and technical construction. These are countries of the Asia-Pacific region: Vietnam, China, India, and also Indonesia, Algeria, Iran and others," he said.

    The Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau is carrying out work jointly with Russia’s state arms seller Rosoboronexport and domestic shipyards for promoting the warship’s export version, the Project 22800E ‘Karakurt-E’, to foreign markets, he said.

    As was reported earlier, one of the contractors building this type of warships, the Leningrad Shipyard ‘Pella’, will feature three Karakurt-E export versions at the Army-2018 international military and technical forum. One version is furnished with the Pantsyr-ME air defense missile system while the second variant is armed with the Kashtan-M surface-to-air missile/artillery complex and the third option is equipped with the Palma seaborne automated short-range air defense artillery guns.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1017879
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:54 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    Project 23420 looks very interesting, but such a ship, of more than 1300tonsD must have dedicated SAM missiles, not only short range Gibka mount. Say, Pantsir-M.

    Nah, that project is dead-end. It doesn't even have helicopter hangar. A non-starter for anti-sub ship these days.

    ...........

    Bykov-class would be able to have RBK/RBU installed behind main gun instead of AA VLS or marine housing.

    Paket torpedoes on sides, Pantsir -M instead of Gibka. The question wherw to put VLS for Kaibrs? Sonar can be perhaps towed with some basic in bow.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    Project 23420 looks very interesting, but such a ship, of more than 1300tonsD must have dedicated SAM missiles, not only short range Gibka mount. Say, Pantsir-M.

    Nah, that project is dead-end. It doesn't even have helicopter hangar. A non-starter for anti-sub ship these days.

    ...........

    Bykov-class would be able to have RBK/RBU installed behind main gun instead of AA VLS or marine housing.

    Paket torpedoes on sides, Pantsir -M instead of Gibka. The question wherw to put VLS for Kaibrs? Sonar can be perhaps towed with some basic in bow.

    Kalibrs go into containers​ as usual. As for towed sonar they already have room specifically for that (container version as usual), you can see the doors on photo below that "terrace" in the back.

    Pantsir would not be necessary since these would be replacing old Soviet anti-sub boats for local waters. Kalibr containers would carry torpedo version of missile. Job done.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:42 am

    Russia to mount Pantsyr seaborne air defense missile systems on Karakurt-class corvettes

    MOSCOW, August 20. /TASS/. The third serial-produced (the fourth-built) Project 22800 ‘Karakurt’ missile corvette will get the Pantsyr-M seaborne air defense missile system, Head of the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau (the project’s developer) Alexander Shlyakhtenko told TASS on Monday.

    "Beginning from the third serial-produced ship [the fourth in succession], they will be armed with the shipborne Pantsyr-M air defense missile/artillery systems," he said.

    Project 22800 missile corvettes are distinguished from similar small displacement projects (less than 900 tonnes) by their compact design (about 70 meters in length) and their speed (30 knots), Shlyakhtenko said.

    "And the main thing is that they carry standardized launchers for various types of missile armament on their board… As their advantages, the ships of this Project are characterized by their high maneuverability and their enhanced seaworthiness achieved through the hull’s optimal shape," he said.

    Currently, the state trials of the first ship of this type, the Uragan, are nearing completion. The trials have confirmed all the stated characteristics and indicators, Shlyakhtenko said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1017907
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:05 am

    GarryB wrote:I am surprised they have not developed a more modern stealthy version of the RBU-6000 launchers.
    They can be stealty by casing launcher, I bombs in RGB are dumb, gravitational not sure what value besides increased cost would add VLS system here



    Honesroc wrote:
    I understand the Steregushchiy class to be an ASW platform

    22160 i cheaper I'd presume. And can be build in longer series.   Not sure about specific ASW variant then rocket topedoes hall be used and choppers) but basic Paket/RGB just for self defense.





    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Paket torpedoes on sides, Pantsir -M instead of Gibka. The question wherw to put VLS for Kaibrs? Sonar can be perhaps towed with some basic in bow.

    Kalibrs go into containers​ as usual. As for towed sonar they already have room specifically for that (container version as usual), you can see the doors on photo below that "terrace" in the back.

    the ones on sides of Kalibrs?! OK but we do nt talk about specialized ASW as this was ejected in Russia but universal corvette.





    Pantsir would not be necessary since these would be replacing old Soviet anti-sub boats for local waters. Kalibr containers would carry torpedo version of missile. Job done.

    on the contrary Pantisris best what ships such class can get. AShM or just any air threats can occur also in Baltic or Black Sea. With 20/15km range for such a small ship good enough. Besides Pantsir is smaller and much lighter then VLS for Shtil1 and outclasses any Gibka.

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    dino00

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  dino00 on Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:52 pm

    The Far Eastern shipyards will build six "Karakurts" for the Ministry of Defense

    The first two ships until 2023 will build the "Eastern shipyard" in Vladivostok

    More:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5480253

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:30 pm

    Finally an official confirmation of radars, I believe this is from the official display at Army 2018.

    Thats Positiv in the dome, Mineral-M in the mast.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:21 am

    Nice promo vid
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    dino00

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  dino00 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:29 pm

    Karakurts" will equip with a complex of detection and guidance, which will allow them to "see" three times farther

    https://iz.ru/767554/aleksei-ramm-aleksandr-kruglov/nastroilis-na-pozitiv-voennye-korabli-poluchat-sovremennye-rlk

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:02 am

    Weird.
    Talks about new Positiv version being used as anti-ship radar like Monolith type active/passive OTH scratch
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    dino00

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:11 pm

    Prefabricated superstructures for ships "invisible" plan to build in the Far East

    Technology that allows the creation of fiberglass superstructures for the ships of project 22800 "Karakurt" in a short time, developed a state university in Komsomolsk-on-Amur

    the problem is that the production is overloaded, and the technological process of manufacturing one panel is quite long and is about 45 days.


    The rector emphasized that the development of KnAGU will significantly reduce the time of creation of these products.

    "Our scientists together with the engineering staff have developed a technology that allows two employees to produce one panel within three days,"


    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201809051256-7wmj.htm
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:57 am

    That is a serious improvement... 45 days vs 3 days that should literally transform the production rate...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:17 am

    I really don't understand how it would take as long as 45 days to make a flat composite panel  dunno
    3 days seems about what it should be (give or take certain assumptions about size/layup complexity)

    Edit: also there is talk of equipping (some?) future 22800s with Chinese CHD622V20CR diesels https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B518/

    Apparently Zvezda is capable of (but I think not actually) producing 10 engines per year atm but its not enough since each ship needs 3.
    CHD622V20CR are same as are going into Buyan-M & 2 new ones on a Rubis broke recently.

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