Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:59 am

    Right you are.
    The older ones had it up on a pedestal for some reason.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13572
    Points : 14065
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:03 pm

    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1812
    Points : 1963
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:00 pm

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 2eyqhiu
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:53 am

    Some more recent pics via Balancer

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 04-6013657-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-04.03.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 26-5860641-234342
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 04-6012165-pella


    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 09-6033629-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-09.03.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 11-6039033-22800-uragan-nadstrojka

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 09-6033665-22800-tajfun-ssz-pella-09.03.2018
    avatar
    kumbor

    Posts : 286
    Points : 284
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Project 22800 SM craft

    Post  kumbor on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:27 pm

    hoom wrote:Some more recent pics via Balancer

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 04-6013657-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-04.03.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 26-5860641-234342
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 04-6012165-pella


    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 09-6033629-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-09.03.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 11-6039033-22800-uragan-nadstrojka

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 09-6033665-22800-tajfun-ssz-pella-09.03.2018


    Kalibr VLS gives possibility of targeting distant targets. 100mm gun is excellent and Pantsir-M enables adequate AA defence for such a small ship. There is no real AS defence, but you can not count for such a small ship to integrate capable AS suite.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:48 am

    100mm gun is excellent and Pantsir-M enables adequate AA defence for such a small ship. There is no real AS defence, but you can not count for such a small ship to integrate capable AS suite.
    Only a 76mm gun but its a new model.
    Pantsir is explicitly a missile defense system, in Syria the land version has proven able to shoot down small drones & mach 2 Grad rockets out to 20km range often with single missile launch claimed.
    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:53 am

    Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...
    avatar
    kumbor

    Posts : 286
    Points : 284
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Karakurt pr.22800

    Post  kumbor on Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:26 am

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...
    Yes but the point was about antiship capability.

    I really wish there would be some official statement on what those damn panel radars actually are.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3756
    Points : 3744
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:00 am

    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    New ships have Sigma battle management system. So they don't need a sonar. Bigger ships will provide them the coordinate of a underwater target through datalinks in real time and they will lunch the 91RE1.

    But it would be interesting to k ow if a small civilian sonar that should weight hundreds of kg which means nothing could detect a torpedo lunch to increase the defence awerness.
    avatar
    kumbor

    Posts : 286
    Points : 284
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Karakurt pr.22800 corvette

    Post  kumbor on Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    New ships have Sigma battle management system. So they don't need a sonar. Bigger ships will provide them the coordinate of a underwater target through datalinks in real time and they will lunch the 91RE1.

    But it would be interesting to k ow if a small civilian sonar that should weight hundreds of kg which means nothing could detect a torpedo lunch to increase the defence awerness.

    Maybe that assimetric response can work, but relying on several ships to exchange data is prone to jamming and simply to breakdown.I don`t think that russian navy is sufficiently trained to coordinate data exchange as to use full potential of their AS weapons (remember Rastrub on Karas and Udaloys - missiles with 50km+ range, and sonars that cannot track precisely at more that 10-20km). Russians hadn`t such a good coordination needed even in their heyday of early 80s. And, where is the guarantee that "bigger ships" will be somewhere near. Don`t say that russian navy is growing fast! They have only stopped dramatic decline in ship numbers!There is no proof that datalinks will work properly in crisis situation. Having in mind that western order of AS combat is worsening from day to day, russian squadrons have simpler job. E.g.,I think that 19, if not less major destroyer/frigates of RN not only cannot control any significant area of North sea or North Atlantic, they cannot control even "Western approaches" effectively- that is to say, their domestic waters. Bundesmarine at this moment has 0 subs operable, due to breakdowns. Western navies are lacking real training due to constant budget cuts.

    I remember, concerning Adriatic sea, that in 1999. during NATO intervention against Serbia and Montenegro, Us SSN captains said> "To dive in these shallow waters, patrol dived, maybe make some attack- you are nuts, in this puddle of sea!!!" Nevertheless, Yugoslavia maintained submarine squadron 1927-2000, they dived and patrolled normally, in that Adriatic "puddle'".

    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3756
    Points : 3744
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:09 pm

    European navies can't even control russian ships passing near them. Last british destroyers are detectable at hundreds of km by sonars because of their very advanced technology that actually is total bullshit. German frigates are inclined and will be probably destroyed by waves if deployed in the north. New French and italian ships are very good but they have little of them and they operates with charles de gaulles for frenchies which means they will be targeted by aviation and antiships missles rather than anti sub capabilities so karakurt are very good for that.

    US are sending most of their fleet in he pacific to counter the everyday growning chinese navy.

    Russian ships are also growning in numbers and in technology. They include sigma system so it means it is a very capable sytem and already tested because it is deployed. Jamming this would meant the jamming source is close to the ships so they will be able to destroy it.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4913
    Points : 4943
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:20 am

    hoom wrote:
    Pantsir is explicitly a missile defense system, in Syria the land version has proven able to shoot down small drones & mach 2 Grad rockets out to 20km range often with single missile launch claimed..

    Pantsir will be upgraded till 40km range and hypersonic missiles (~1800m/s) too.






    kumbor wrote:
    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.

    Second that. They are actually MRK - small rocket ships not corvettes in Russian naming convention. But true I'd love to see them having basic Paket for self defense and basic ASW tasks.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:47 am

    Yes but the point was about antiship capability.

    No. I think when he asked about AS defence he was talking about ASW defence... ie anti sub, not anti ship.

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    These are small vessels that wont be operating on their own in the north atlantic or north pacific for that matter.

    They will generally operate in Russian waters and sea bed arrays should be sufficient to give them warning of threats or targets.

    When hunting submarines they could easily operate unmanned sub vehicles with sonar and the helicopter they carry could use dipping sonar to find targets that could be engaged by the helicopter itself or rocket propelled torpedoes.

    remember Rastrub on Karas and Udaloys - missiles with 50km+ range, and sonars that cannot track precisely at more that 10-20km).

    Works both ways... the ASROC and SUBROC were supposed to be replaced by a missile called Sea Lance, but in the end the Soviet/Russian subs were getting their noise levels down to the point that without using active sonar as a matter of course the extra range of Sea Lance was useless because the extra range could not be exploited because Russian subs could not be reliably detected and identified at that extra range.

    Karas and Udaloys also had helicopters that could find targets that could then be rapidly engaged by ship based weapons.

    Russians hadn`t such a good coordination needed even in their heyday of early 80s.

    First of all those were Soviet ships and each was custom designed for a mission except the very big ships that had multiple roles with a variety of weapons.

    With the unification of launchers so anti ship and anti sub and now land attack missiles can be carried in mixtures in one unified launcher the new vessels are fully multirole so their sensors and equipment reflect that... one of the reasons why they are taking so long... in addition to problems with engines and SAMs.

    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.

    Sub hunting is serious business and no single vessel would do it on its own... even in Soviet times the Udaloys would have Sovremmeny escorts and other vessels operating with them too.

    Helicopters make vessels more flexible and having an anti sub helo on board gives it capabilities it would otherwise not have... variable depth sonar and the speed to move 30km away from the ship and have a look for an enemy sub that can be engaged directly from the ship by a 91E missile is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with underwater threats if enemy subs are suspected.

    Pantsir will be upgraded till 40km range and hypersonic missiles (~1800m/s) too.

    The hypersonic models are supposed to reach 60km and in flat open sea environments would be rather more effective because of lack of hills or trees.

    Second that. They are actually MRK - small rocket ships not corvettes in Russian naming convention. But true I'd love to see them having basic Paket for self defense and basic ASW tasks.

    They are multirole vessels but can't be expert in every area... that is just silly to expect that... it would be like expecting a new pistol to replace assault rifle and sniper rifle and belt fed machine gun...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8235
    Points : 8319
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:42 pm


    ''Uragan'' bridge:
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Yy5yYWRpa2FsLnJ1L2MxMi8xODAzL2M1LzU3NThjOGRjMjM4Yy5qcGc_X19pZD0xMDU0MTc=
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:51 am

    Another pic via Balancer
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 02-6122421-uragan
    Must be getting pretty close to starting sea trials.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:13 am

    New from Balancer
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 21-6192069-ssz-pella-21.04.2018
    2nd boat has caught up a lot with the 1st.

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 21-6192057-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-21.04.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 21-6192061-22800-tajfun-ssz-pella-21.04.2018
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1812
    Points : 1963
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:00 pm

    The third pr.22800 Karakurt class ship will be launched on the 5th of May at pella shipyard.

    Name is SHKVAL

    http://pellaship.ru/spusk-na-vodu-mrk-22800-253-23-04-2018.html
    Luq man
    Luq man

    Posts : 67
    Points : 69
    Join date : 2016-03-26
    Location : The Netherlands

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Luq man on Wed May 02, 2018 10:47 pm

    'SHKVAL' note the new faced array antennas also placed on the aft for full 360° coverage. And finally the sexy naval Pantsir installed aswell.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 DcNhWzbX0AMEaqP
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 DcNmvT9XUAAb4N6
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Wed May 02, 2018 11:03 pm

    (ninja'd!)

    Ooh er! bounce

    So that is indeed a 4 panel fixed version of the Pantsir-S2 radar.
    The dome is a subtly different shape, a bit taller vertical part before it goes hemispherical, more like on Nanuchka class (Monolith?)

    A Nanuchka
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Zyb%27-2008-Zeebrugge

    And first 2
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 02-6229077-22800-tajfun-ssz-pella-02.05.2018
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 02-6229053-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-02.05.2018
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 03, 2018 3:19 am

    The top view of the Pantsir system from the back I thought the flattened ball on top was a radar, but it looks like all the optics are there...

    Nice... looks much better organised and laid out and simpler... (Pantsir that is).
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu May 03, 2018 5:58 am

    Interestingly the Pantsir is up on a plinth like the silhouette plate after-all Suspect
    avatar
    kumbor

    Posts : 286
    Points : 284
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Karakurt pr.22800 corvette

    Post  kumbor on Thu May 03, 2018 7:56 am

    GarryB wrote:The top view of the Pantsir system from the back I thought the flattened ball on top was a radar, but it looks like all the optics are there...

    Nice... looks much better organised and laid out and simpler... (Pantsir that is).

    The flattened ball? If you think of an angled dome based on the top of the bridge, it`s a MR-123 Vympel array, FD radar for AK-630.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu May 03, 2018 5:03 pm

    Worth noting this is the first roll-out of a production Pantsir-M on a ship (this config has been seen on display on land a couple of pics), here is a recent pic of the boat that was supposed to be doing sea-tests...
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 03-6230057-shuya

    Also looking very complete, seeming like there is some hold-up that the 1st boat still hasn't started sea-trials...
    Wondering when we'll see the first Crimean boat launch, 3rd hull was laid down there before this ship.
    Speaking of the Crimean ones BMPD article has some info suggesting there are 5 currently in-build in Crimea, also expecting a 6 boat order for Pacific Fleet at Komsomolsk-on-Amur (I thought they'd been ruled out?) this year Shocked https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3183161.html
    The small rocket ship (MRK) of project 22800 Shkval (plant number 253) was laid at the Pella plant on July 29, 2016 and became the third ship of this project being built at the enterprise. Before him were initiated stroitestvom MRK "Hurricane" (serial number 251) and "Typhoon" (serial number 252), a bookmark which was held at the factory "Pella" December 24, 2015. The main ship "Hurricane" was launched on July 29, 2017 and should begin factory trials in May 2018. The second RTD Typhoon was launchedon November 24, 2017. Both these IRs do not carry the "Pantsir-M", and are equipped instead with two old 30-mm artillery munitions AK-630.
    ...
    December 24, 2016 at the factory "laid the fourth IRA of this project "Storm" (serial number 257).

    Since the Pella plant is the main investor of the Moret Shipyard in Feodosia (Crimea), and in November 2016 received the latter's capacity for lease until December 31, 2020, respectively, of the seven RTOs of Project 22800 ordered by the " Pellet ", three ships should be built at NW" Sea "in close cooperation with" Pella ", which led to the transfer of the construction of three units to Feodosia. The first RTD of this project " Storm " (plant number 254) was laid in Feodosia on May 10, 2016 year, the second "Okhotsk"(serial number 256) - was laid down on December 19, 2017. The RTOs under construction in Feodosia received construction numbers from 254 to 256 "in a row" of the building numbers of this project at Pellet.

    August 5, 2016 Russian Ministry of Defense contract to build the Navy for another five small missile ships of project 22800 receivedJSC Zelenodolsky Plant named after AM Gorky (Zelenodolsk). At the same time Zelenodolsk plant was actually received under temporary management of Zaliv Shipbuilding Plant LLC in Kerch (Crimea) from the end of 2014. According to unofficial information, the main Zelenodolsky IRC of Project 22800, called "Cyclone" (serial number 801), was without special publicity laid at the shipyard "Bay" in Kerch in the summer of 2016. According to the information currently in the factory "Bay" is already under construction next two IRs project 22800 with serial numbers 802 (was also founded in 2016) and 803

    summer 2017 was reported, that the Ministry of Defense of Russia is going to place an order in 2018 to build six more small missile ships of Project 22800 for the Pacific Fleet at JSC "Amur Shipbuilding Plant" (part of United Shipbuilding Corporation) in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1969
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri May 04, 2018 5:14 am

    And now Balancer provides updates on the Zaliv Kerch boats
    Satellite pic from 18 April https://prnt.sc/jddni9 and early March https://prnt.sc/jddxdq shows 2* 22160 at the bottom, 3* 22800 up top & looks like they're all Pantsir-M version which is interesting.

    Also another pic of new boat
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 03-6231609-shkval-15

    Sponsored content

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 15 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:31 pm