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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Luq man
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    Post  Luq man on 11/11/17, 08:07 pm

    EASA Panels definitely installed. What is the model and specifiation of it?

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    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf on 11/11/17, 08:23 pm

    Luq man wrote:EASA Panels definitely installed. What is the model and specifiation of it?

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    Lets hope they get some knowledge out of this and fix some panels on the Kuz (which currently sports concrete plates No )
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    Post  Luq man on 11/11/17, 09:00 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Luq man wrote:EASA Panels definitely installed. What is the model and specifiation of it?

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    Lets hope they get some knowledge out of this and fix some panels on the Kuz (which currently sports concrete plates No )

    In my opinion the Kuznetsov is not worth extensive upgrades. The ship is from the inside as well outside a total piece of shit. They will upgrade the propulsion system starting next year, wich is actually not a waste of resources. The thing can then be used for basic training for naval pilots but that's it. The most important thing for the Russian navy is get your shit together and start ordering/pumping out frigates of one type across multiple shipyards ASAP.


    Last edited by Luq man on 11/11/17, 09:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on 11/11/17, 09:00 pm

    You mean lacks the Pantsir-M? Thats only coming on 3rd or 4th boat.

    That's stupid. They should have let a whole and put the pantsirs when they are ready. It's like the Steregoutchy with Kashtans.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on 11/11/17, 09:18 pm

    EASA Panels definitely installed. What is the model and specifiation of it?
    Thats the big question, doesn't appear to have ever been a clear statement.
    I believe its a subset of the Zaslon/Barrier system going on 20385/20386 due to similar size & absence of other publicly mentioned systems.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 11 Snimok_4_0
    But it could be something completely different dunno

    They should have let a whole and put the pantsirs when they are ready.
    Thats what I'd have done too but dunno
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on 11/11/17, 09:43 pm

    hoom wrote:They should have let a whole and put the pantsirs when they are ready.
    Thats what I'd have done too but dunno

    I don't think Naval Pantsir was originally part of the ship's design. It was added later. And Naval Pantsir is just getting into production.

    Besides if these first 2 are going to Black Sea then they will most likely be filling in for Buyans and doing long range land attack jobs from safe zones. They'll manage without Pantsirs easily. Besides it's just Pantsir not Redut, Shtil or anything capable.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on 11/11/17, 10:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:I don't think Naval Pantsir was originally part of the ship's design. It was added later. And Naval Pantsir is just getting into production.

    Besides if these first 2 are going to Black Sea then they will most likely be filling in for Buyans and doing long range land attack jobs from safe zones. They'll manage without Pantsirs easily. Besides it's just Pantsir not Redut, Shtil or anything capable.

    Woow their, how is the Pantsir not capable???
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    Post  PapaDragon on 11/11/17, 10:31 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:I don't think Naval Pantsir was originally part of the ship's design. It was added later. And Naval Pantsir is just getting into production.

    Besides if these first 2 are going to Black Sea then they will most likely be filling in for Buyans and doing long range land attack jobs from safe zones. They'll manage without Pantsirs easily. Besides it's just Pantsir not Redut, Shtil or anything capable.

    Woow their, how is the Pantsir not capable???

    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.

    When combined with S-300/400 or Buk then it's useful but all by itself on a ship? Not that much.

    Good set of CIWS is more or less good enough in comparison.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on 11/11/17, 11:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:I don't think Naval Pantsir was originally part of the ship's design. It was added later. And Naval Pantsir is just getting into production.

    Besides if these first 2 are going to Black Sea then they will most likely be filling in for Buyans and doing long range land attack jobs from safe zones. They'll manage without Pantsirs easily. Besides it's just Pantsir not Redut, Shtil or anything capable.

    Woow their, how is the Pantsir not capable???

    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.

    When combined with S-300/400 or Buk then it's useful but all by itself on a ship? Not that much.

    Good set of CIWS is more or less good enough in comparison.

    Not really. Many corvettes armed only with ciws were destroyed by missiles like maverick or harpoons.

    Pantsir is not a magic weapons but it gives you ability to shot down missiles at medium ranges and deal with the remainings with canons. Plus it has very good AESA radar.

    20 km range and more for future missiles is mire than very good for a ship. with 10 ship you can defend 400 km of costline ... and you can have lot of missiles for reloads because they are small and cheap.

    CIWS are good if you have some other air defence system with it to keep the bomber far away of the ship. Alone they are not really usefull.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on 12/11/17, 01:49 am

    Hermes K should be more than good enough that having a VLS launch of that would be great! Anyway, wonder why shtil-1 is taking sidelines? Its ready, it works well, and its already in use. Use newer radar and its better.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on 12/11/17, 01:52 am

    PapaDragon wrote:For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.

    When combined with S-300/400 or Buk then it's useful but all by itself on a ship? Not that much.

    Good set of CIWS is more or less good enough in comparison.

    Come on, it's specs are pretty close to the Shtil, and you got the guns too, although it could use more CIWS.
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    Post  hoom on 12/11/17, 08:18 am

    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.
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    Post  PapaDragon on 12/11/17, 09:15 am

    hoom wrote:
    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.

    After some googling all I can say is shame on Royal Navy for slacking off. When did standards drop so low?

    As for these two Karakurts I stand by what I said: for land attacks from friendly waters of Black Sea they'll do fine.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on 12/11/17, 10:03 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.

    After some googling all I can say is shame on Royal Navy for slacking off. When did standards drop so low?

    As for these two Karakurts I stand by what I said: for land attacks from friendly waters of Black Sea they'll do fine.

    Yeah but they are meant to be part of naval group to fight other ships. If you want to lunch only 2500km Kalibr from oyour homeland and homewaters, you can use the container version on a truck or use the already build Buyan-M.

    Having a system like Pantsir and in big numbers in the middle of your naval group is really a bonus because it protects your bigger ships and you won't need to use the missiles of Redut from a the gorshkov class for exemple.
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    Post  KiloGolf on 12/11/17, 01:56 pm

    Shtil can eat this naval Pantsir's lunch when it come to point defense.

    Unfortunately the Karakurt patrol boat concept (or better contraption) has been chosen by RuN instead of proper frigates like the Grigorovich. Why they can't evolve their frigates with the tech seen in this Karakurt is beyond me.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on 12/11/17, 02:32 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:Shtil can eat this naval Pantsir's lunch when it come to point defense.

    Unfortunately the Karakurt patrol boat concept (or better contraption) has been chosen by RuN instead of proper frigates like the Grigorovich. Why they can't evolve their frigates with the tech seen in this Karakurt is beyond me.

    these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.
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    Post  KiloGolf on 12/11/17, 02:38 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to have stalled too.


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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on 12/11/17, 02:46 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to gave stalled too.

    Yes that is their problem, even if they just had mostly frigates right now that would be fine. Still they seemed to stop laying them down, which is a shame.

    Russian DD's tho are just basically frigates now if you mean the sorv and Uda's their weapons aren't comparable to modern day DD's.
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    Post  Isos on 12/11/17, 04:20 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to have stalled too.

    they have Grigorovitch and project 21956 but russian navy wants more modern ships to make them the backbone for their navy. They don't really know how to design their futur ships. We had gorshkov but now they want something bigger. We have lider design but its unlikly to see them anytime soon. So they build Karakurt to replace at least their old small corvettes and missiles boats with a ship that has UKSK, which is not bad at all.

    But I would love to see a more modern 21956 with more UKSK. Because they have a real S-300 on board (or S-400F if they could navalize the S-400) with long range missiles or quad pack 9M96 missiles.
    The design is based on Udaloy I think so they won't have issues building them.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on 12/11/17, 08:56 pm

    Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on 12/11/17, 08:58 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.

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    Post  miroslav on 12/11/17, 09:31 pm

    Easy everybody, we all know the problems that they are facing in the shipbuilding industry, from the technical neglect of the 90s to the general corruption, thing are nevertheless moving in the right direction, at slow pace but moving.

    By the start of 2020 we will see a significant increase if the Russian Navy's potential, more importantly the "update program" of the smaller FAC and "missile boat" fleet will be mostly over at that point (75%+) and the shipyards will be able to concentrate their efforts on bigger ships.

    We will see a significant amount of ships being commissioned in these year alone and in the next.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on 13/11/17, 12:39 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.


    and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.
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    Post  KiloGolf on 13/11/17, 01:33 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.

    Type 45 is an example to avoid, globally.
    Álvaro de Bazán or Fridtjof Nansen are good examples for Russia to follow. Check the induction rate/time and you will be surprised. Realistic designs, a tad bit expensive, sure, but nothing Russia can't handle.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on 13/11/17, 02:03 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.


    and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.

    Depends on the DD type 45 is meh, I do not defend it. However that doesn't justify this frigate mess either.

    Ask Spain like kilo said floated out their frigates which are equally armed and in size in two years.

    How would I fix it? Cannot really answer this, you'd have to start the kremlin tho.

    Frankly, these shipyards are getting away with it because the government is allowing it.

    Corrupt guys etc, list goes on and on.

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