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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

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    LMFS
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  LMFS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:10 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.   thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup  
    Don't be a moron, I was talking about STOBAR /CATOBAR type carriers, almost all of which have streamlined hulls and speeds close to 30 kt, while LHDs have big fat hulls with as much internal space as possible and speeds hardly above 20 kt. The type Russia has announced is compatible with carrying STOVL to support an expeditionary force but to my knowledge is not meaning a sudden alteration of naval strategy which clearly indicates the development of new carriers, detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.
    QE2 can carry up to 900 Marines
    De Gaulle can carry up to 800
    Do they have well decks? Space for land vehicles and ramps to load them into the ship? They can transport as many marines as you want but they are not amphibious assault vessels, a cruise ship could do that too.

    kumbor wrote:Fact that Kuz. is registered as "aircraft carrying cruiser" dates from the times when shipbuilding department was hardly opposed to "aircraft carriers" as the "Nests of american aggression". Now these days are over, marshall Ustinov died long time ago, and there are no principal opponents to the idea of aircraft carrier as such. In every way except political idiocy, Kuz. is an aircraft carrier.
    Nevskoye has said that they don't think a carrier needs to be armed to the teeth, since that will only make it more expensive. While I think Russia will not want a defenceless carrier, I have to agree that if you are lacking hangar space it does not make sense to load huge amounts of big ASMs for instance.


    Last edited by LMFS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:36 am

    Do they have well decks? Space for land vehicles and ramps to load them into the ship? They can transport as many marines as you want but they are not be amphibious assault vessels, a cruise ship could do that too.
    LHDs can do it better, while this new ship can also put dozens of marines & some of their gear ashore with Mi-38s, Ka-29/-52s, & future tilt-rotors.
    http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/kamov_ka29_helix_b.htm
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/december-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4737-russia-s-navy-receives-first-batch-of-overhauled-ka-29-helicopters.html
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  LMFS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:04 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Do they have well decks? Space for land vehicles and ramps to load them into the ship? They can transport as many marines as you want but they are not be amphibious assault vessels, a cruise ship could do that too.
    LHDs can do it better, while this new ship can also put dozens of marines & some of their gear ashore with Mi-38s, Ka-29/-52s, & future tilt-rotors.
    Of course, LHDs are the tool for the amphibious assault mission.
    BTW, Russia is developing also the Minoga, if it turns to be a high-speed design of enough size it would be extremely useful as transport helicopter. Maybe even Mi-26 could be used in certain cases too, but deck would need to be specially strong.

    I am thinking that this new vessel class could be something like the America class but with built-in multifunctionality. For instance, two first ships of the America class have no well deck and are meant rather as light carriers, while the subsequent units will have well decks again. A modular ship that could be configured according to the mission would allow to minimize the number of hulls to be built:
    1) Light carrier: internal space configured for hangars and magazines
    2) Transport ship: land vehicles, marines and supplies.
    3) Landing ship: well dock + landing craft

    Other potential configurations could be thought like floating hospital etc.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:59 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.   thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup  
    Don't be a moron, I was talking about STOBAR /CATOBAR type carriers, almost all of which have streamlined hulls and speeds close to 30 kt, while LHDs have big fat hulls with as much internal space as possible and speeds hardly above 20 kt. The type Russia has announced is compatible with carrying STOVL to support an expeditionary force but to my knowledge is not meaning a sudden alteration of naval strategy which clearly indicates the development of new carriers, detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.


    Dont be a moron. Russia has announced absolutely nothing so far. The on announcement from Rkahmanov is no official statement. Perhaps only one of proposals for spring competition.
    Only MoD or Boriosv can name official statements. We like them or not. The only official so far was replacement of MiG-29k and Su-33 with better VSTOL fighter.

    Will this ship be chosen one ? only MoD can give an answer. None of us.


    LMFS wrote:detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.

    so who precisely of MoD said it and when ? a quote perhaps? Better wait till spring 2019. No need to make up stories now  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup






    kumbor wrote:
    Fact that Kuz. is registered as "aircraft carrying cruiser" dates from the times when shipbuilding department was hardly opposed to "aircraft carriers" as the "Nests of american aggression".

    really no differences in design?

    Kuz 58,600tonnes - 24 fighters
    6 × AK-630 AA guns (6×30 mm, 6,000 round/min/mount, 24,000 rounds)
    8 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS (each 2 × 30 mm Gatling AA plus 32 3K87 Kortik SAM)
    12 × P-700 Granit SSM
    24 × 8-cell 3K95 Kinzhal SAM VLS (192 missiles; 1 missile per 3 seconds)
    RBU-12000 UDAV-1 ASW rocket launchers (60 rockets)


    Carrier QE2 - up to 50 fighters (65,000tonnes)
    At least 3 × Phalanx CIWS[11]
    30-mm DS30M Mk2 guns
    Miniguns
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:19 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    4 missions. Let's count '
    1) Aircraft Carrier
    2) helo carrier
    3) LHD
    4) ???? what is 4th? a cruiser?
    The 4th mission of the new ship is anti-surface, BMD & land attack, i.e. what cruisers r for.

    Looks like, say hybride of ASW carrier/carrier/LHD + cruiser so actual TAKR. But will it materialize? that's more question of doctrine, AShMs or airwing. Since there wont be really parity on high seas AShMs IMHO are better solution but lets wait till decision is made.



    Tsavo wrote:
    Kuz is TAKR with removed missiles though still VLS tubes are still there AFAIK.
    In keeping with its designation, it will have Ash/LACMs after the refit.


    Unlikely unless you've heard something. Have you from MoD?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:52 am

    OK, Lads you wanted official statements of MoD? here it comes.:
    the Chief of Naval Aviation of the Navy, Hero of Russia, Major General Igor KOZHIN , talks about upgrading and modernizing the fleet, improving the infrastructure and the development prospects in general  

    Krasnya Zvezda is an official MoD paper.

    generally the whole interview is interesting but I quoted only part related to this thread:

    1) new deck fighter before 2030...
    2) new aircraft AEW/AWACS le's see what platform it will be based on
    3) new deck helo - also used as assault one.


    in third stage a long-range amphibious helicopter!!!! affraid affraid affraid




    http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/



    - Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
    - As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.



    At the first stage (until 2020)
    , an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out. We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB). In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.


    At the second stage (2021-2030 years)
    will continue to upgrade the entire fleet of aircraft and helicopters of naval aviation and re-equipment of fighter-assault aircraft coastal-based, there will begin mass production of advanced aviation patrol complex, a promising multi-purpose helicopter complex coastal and ship-based combat helicopter ship-based.
    The naval aviation, should receive:
    shipborne radar patrol aircraft
    shipborne unmanned aerial vehicles,
    promising aviation complex of naval aviation.




    In the third stage (2031-2050 years)
    in naval aviation is expected to move to a new generation of multi-functional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapon systems, the combat capabilities of anti-submarine and multi-purpose patrol aircraft will be increased due to the re-equipment of anti-submarine regiments to a multi-purpose ship helicopter and a patrol aircraft of the far zone.

    Search and rescue helicopters of amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and Arctic sea shelves.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:15 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:OK, Lads you wanted official statements of MoD? here it comes.:
    the Chief of Naval Aviation of the Navy, Hero of Russia, Major General Igor KOZHIN , talks about upgrading and modernizing the fleet, improving the infrastructure and the development prospects in general  

    Krasnya Zvezda is an official MoD paper.

    generally the whole interview is interesting but I quoted only part related to this thread:

    1) new deck fighter before 2030...
    2) new aircraft AEW/AWACS le's see what  platform it will be based on
    3) new deck helo - also used as assault one.


    in third stage a long-range amphibious helicopter!!!!  affraid  affraid  affraid




    http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/



    - Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
    - As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.



    At the first stage (until 2020)
    , an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out. We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB). In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.


    At the second stage (2021-2030 years)
    will continue to upgrade the entire fleet of aircraft and helicopters of naval aviation and re-equipment of fighter-assault aircraft coastal-based, there will begin mass production of advanced aviation patrol complex, a promising multi-purpose helicopter complex coastal and ship-based combat helicopter ship-based.
    The naval aviation, should receive:
    shipborne radar patrol aircraft
    shipborne unmanned aerial vehicles,
    promising aviation complex of naval aviation.




    In the third stage (2031-2050 years)
    in naval aviation is expected to move to a new generation of multi-functional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapon systems, the combat capabilities of anti-submarine and multi-purpose patrol aircraft will be increased due to the re-equipment of anti-submarine regiments to a multi-purpose ship helicopter and a patrol aircraft of the far zone.

    Search and rescue helicopters of amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and Arctic sea shelves.



    The reality coming again over those saying that the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is not working. The words of the official fit very well the published about the doctrine, like you can see:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#211908

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

    For the Russian Naval Aviation is very important to work in the development of unmanned platforms. I expect to be unmanned:

    - The future Maritime Patrol / Airborne Early Warning and Control platforms (most of them shipborne, adapted to the different ship weight categories, to achieve maximum range for every ship size category).

    Very likely both roles can be unified, with more powerful features in the bigger platforms.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.   thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup  
    Don't be a moron, I was talking about STOBAR /CATOBAR type carriers, almost all of which have streamlined hulls and speeds close to 30 kt, while LHDs have big fat hulls with as much internal space as possible and speeds hardly above 20 kt. The type Russia has announced is compatible with carrying STOVL to support an expeditionary force but to my knowledge is not meaning a sudden alteration of naval strategy which clearly indicates the development of new carriers, detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.


    Dont be a moron. Russia has announced absolutely nothing so far. The on announcement from Rkahmanov is no official statement. Perhaps only one of proposals for spring competition.
    Only MoD or Boriosv can name official statements. We like them or not. The only official so far was replacement of MiG-29k and Su-33 with better VSTOL fighter.

    Will this ship be chosen one ? only MoD can give an answer. None of us.


    LMFS wrote:detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.

    so who precisely of MoD said it and when ? a quote perhaps? Better wait till spring 2019. No need to make up stories now  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup






    kumbor wrote:
    Fact that Kuz. is registered as "aircraft carrying cruiser" dates from the times when shipbuilding department was hardly opposed to "aircraft carriers" as the "Nests of american aggression".

    really no differences in design?

    Kuz 58,600tonnes - 24 fighters
    6 × AK-630 AA guns (6×30 mm, 6,000 round/min/mount, 24,000 rounds)
    8 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS (each 2 × 30 mm Gatling AA plus 32 3K87 Kortik SAM)
    12 × P-700 Granit SSM
    24 × 8-cell 3K95 Kinzhal SAM VLS (192 missiles; 1 missile per 3 seconds)
    RBU-12000 UDAV-1 ASW rocket launchers (60 rockets)


    Carrier QE2 - up to 50 fighters (65,000tonnes)
    At least 3 × Phalanx CIWS[11]
    30-mm DS30M Mk2 guns
    Miniguns

    QE - 0 fighters combat operational until 2026, and with new mad idea of SSBN building, surface fleet will be crippled beyond any chance of repair in anytime. Or UK, or England itself "after secession of Scotland" will be unable to support any kind of navy beyond simple coast guard! Small, stinky, joke of a state island if not only as an "Airstrip one" from Orwell`s 1984.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  LMFS on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:01 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/
    Thanks for the interview, very interesting

    Sincere question: where is the part of the new deck fighter? He talks about new fighters until 2020 (MiGs) and then until 2030 to upgrade the ones shore-based (modernize Su-30SM?) dunno
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:09 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/
    Thanks for the interview, very interesting

    Sincere question: where is the part of the new deck fighter? He talks about new fighters until 2020 (MiGs) and then until 2030 to upgrade the ones shore-based (modernize Su-30SM?) dunno


    На втором этапе (2021–2030 годы) будут продолжены модернизация всего парка самолётов и вертолётов морской авиации и переоснащение самолётов истребительно-штурмовой авиации берегового базирования,будет начато серийное производство перспективного авиационного патрульного комплекса, перспективного многоцелевого вертолётного комплекса берегового и корабельного базирования, боевого вертолёта корабельного базирования. На вооружение морской авиации должны поступить корабельные самолёты радиолокационного дозора, беспилотные летательные аппараты корабельного базирования, перспективный авиационный комплекс корабельной авиации.



    At the second stage (2021–2030), the modernization of the entire fleet of naval aviation aircraft and helicopters and the retrofitting of coast-based fighter aircraft will be continued.
    There is going to begin a serial production of a promising aviation patrol complex, a promising multipurpose coastal and ship-based helicopter complex, and a ship-based combat helicopter.The naval aviation should be supplied with a shipborne radar patrol aircraft, ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles, and a prospective airborne complex of shipborne aviation.


    By analogy to PAK FA

    Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, lit. ''prospective aeronautical complex of front-line air forces
    Перспективный авиационный комплекс фронтовой авиации,

    he was talking about
    перспективный авиационный комплекс корабельной авиации- Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Korabelnoy Aviatsii - prospective airborne complex of shipborne aviation (PAK KA ?)
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:17 am

    kumbor wrote:
    QE - 0 fighters combat operational until 2026,

    any official data?



    Kumbor wrote: and with new mad idea of SSBN building, surface fleet will be crippled beyond any chance of repair in anytime.

    after wiki

    The Royal Navy is the principal naval warfare service branch of the British Armed Forces. As of November 2018, there are 75 commissioned ships in the Royal Navy. 20 of the commissioned vessels are major surface combatants (six guided missile destroyers, 13 frigates and one aircraft carrier), and 10 are nuclear-powered submarines (four ballistic missile submarines and six fleet submarines). In addition the Navy possesses two amphibious transport docks, 13 mine countermeasures vessels, 23 patrol vessels, four survey vessels, one icebreaker and two historic warships (Victory and Bristol).


    nto that bad to me.

    Or Russia where perceptive of 22350 building look rather good? There is no "chance of repair anytime" , thsi is the matter of couple of years and money only.




    kumbor wrote: Or UK, or England itself "after secession of Scotland" will be unable to support any kind of navy beyond simple coast guard! Small, stinky, joke of a state island if not only as an "Airstrip one" from Orwell`s 1984.

    There will be no secession of UK. Regardless on whether Scots want or not. Same with Brexit. So what that the majority was for EU?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:29 am

    eehnie wrote:
    For the Russian Naval Aviation is very important to work in the development of unmanned platforms. I expect to be unmanned:

    - The future Maritime Patrol / Airborne Early Warning and Control platforms (most of them shipborne, adapted to the different ship weight categories, to achieve maximum range for every ship size category).

    Very likely both roles can be unified, with more powerful features in the bigger platforms.

    Chief-in-Commnad Naval Aviation Kozhin said PAK KA till 2030 - in 10 years i doubt new VSTOL unmanned fighter will be developed.


    As for AWACS - still question manned or not, VSTOL ot no tis open, if all ships then tiltrotor would be a logical solution. Not that much worse performance than classic shipborne AWACS but much mor emodest runaway requirements.





    And for all drama queens reading "noo Russian fleet cannot develop OR naval aviation is in shambles OR MoD doesne know how to do their job" . Check article below:
    https://army-news.ru/2018/11/slomannye-krylya-vozroditsya-li-morskaya-aviaciya/


    November 12

    Broken wings Will naval aviation revive?


    There is one, one might say, fatal flaw in the minds of naval commanders who emerged from the crew: misunderstanding the role of naval aviation . This problem cannot be considered purely Russian, in many fleets of the world there was and is a mutual dislike between aviators and sailors. But only in Russia it took truly pathological forms, and only for Russia this can be fraught with disastrous consequences, even the most terrible.


    then an interview with Kozhin lol1 lol1 lol1

    10 December

    http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/

    Along the road to renwal

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:28 am

    really no differences in design?

    Kuz 58,600tonnes - 24 fighters
    6 × AK-630 AA guns (6×30 mm, 6,000 round/min/mount, 24,000 rounds)
    8 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS (each 2 × 30 mm Gatling AA plus 32 3K87 Kortik SAM)
    12 × P-700 Granit SSM
    24 × 8-cell 3K95 Kinzhal SAM VLS (192 missiles; 1 missile per 3 seconds)
    RBU-12000 UDAV-1 ASW rocket launchers (60 rockets)


    Carrier QE2 - up to 50 fighters (65,000tonnes)
    At least 3 × Phalanx CIWS[11]
    30-mm DS30M Mk2 guns
    Miniguns

    Excellent, so you clearly agree the Russians don't make their carriers like western carriers, so they need a much bigger carrier to get enough fighters on board to be useful... I knew you would come around.

    Or are you suggesting they build American style carriers with F-35s... in which case you are clearly a 5th columnist and should be ignored...
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  LMFS on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:15 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/
    Thanks for the interview, very interesting

    Sincere question: where is the part of the new deck fighter? He talks about new fighters until 2020 (MiGs) and then until 2030 to upgrade the ones shore-based (modernize Su-30SM?) dunno


    На втором этапе (2021–2030 годы) будут продолжены модернизация всего парка самолётов и вертолётов морской авиации и переоснащение самолётов истребительно-штурмовой авиации берегового базирования,будет начато серийное производство перспективного авиационного патрульного комплекса, перспективного многоцелевого вертолётного комплекса берегового и корабельного базирования, боевого вертолёта корабельного базирования. На вооружение морской авиации должны поступить корабельные самолёты радиолокационного дозора, беспилотные летательные аппараты корабельного базирования, перспективный авиационный комплекс корабельной авиации.



    At the second stage (2021–2030), the modernization of the entire fleet of naval aviation aircraft and helicopters and the retrofitting of coast-based fighter aircraft will be continued.
    There is going to begin a serial production of a promising aviation patrol complex, a promising multipurpose coastal and ship-based helicopter complex, and a ship-based combat helicopter.The naval aviation should be supplied with a shipborne radar patrol aircraft, ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles, and a prospective airborne complex of shipborne aviation.


    By analogy to PAK FA

    Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, lit. ''prospective aeronautical complex of front-line air forces
    Перспективный авиационный комплекс фронтовой авиации,

    he was talking about
    перспективный авиационный комплекс корабельной авиации- Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Korabelnoy Aviatsii - prospective airborne complex of shipborne aviation (PAK KA ?)
    Oh thanks. By elimination of other roles we could think it will be a fighter but it is a bit uncertain yet
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:48 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Excellent, so you clearly agree the Russians don't make their carriers like western carriers, so they need a much bigger carrier to get enough fighters on board to be useful... I knew you would come around...

    yes! and those carriers were called TAKRS and were built to carry VSTOL lol1 lol1 lol1




    LMFS wrote:Oh thanks. By elimination of other roles we could think it will be a fighter but it is a bit uncertain yet

    of course it could be a drone fighter (like this tiny one on Sukhoi R&d form TV) , but I dont think 6gen will come so quick.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:12 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    QE - 0 fighters combat operational until 2026,

    any official data?



    Kumbor wrote: and with new mad idea of SSBN building, surface fleet will be crippled beyond any chance of repair in anytime.

    after wiki

    The Royal Navy is the principal naval warfare service branch of the British Armed Forces. As of November 2018, there are 75 commissioned ships in the Royal Navy. 20 of the commissioned vessels are major surface combatants (six guided missile destroyers, 13 frigates and one aircraft carrier), and 10 are nuclear-powered submarines (four ballistic missile submarines and six fleet submarines). In addition the Navy possesses two amphibious transport docks, 13 mine countermeasures vessels, 23 patrol vessels, four survey vessels, one icebreaker and two historic warships (Victory and Bristol).


    nto that bad to me.

    Or Russia where perceptive of 22350 building look rather good? There is no "chance of repair anytime" , thsi is the matter of couple of years and money only.




    kumbor wrote: Or UK, or England itself "after secession of Scotland" will be unable to support any kind of navy beyond simple coast guard! Small, stinky, joke of a state island if not only as an "Airstrip one" from Orwell`s 1984.

    There will be no secession of UK.  Regardless on whether Scots want or not. Same with Brexit. So what that the majority was for EU?

    Please compare with the status of early 70s -
    2 fleet carriers
    4 other carriers - centaur, hermes, albion, bulwark
    approx 80 destroyers/frigates
    20+ smaller A/S vessels - light frigates/corvettes
    4 SSBNs
    10 SSNs
    13 SSKs
    Viable amphibious and transport force of various ships.

    Today, with 19 destroyers/frigates. no matter how cosmically advanced and equipped they are, RN cannot defend even their homeland shores, not to mention strategically important Western approaches and vast area of North Atlantic. UK SSNs are among finest, but there are too few of them! Think logically... one ship cannot be on two places at the same time. Sea is vast. sea is cruel, and many ships need refit in regular intervals.
    Not to mention RNs incapability to man even existing naval force. No men to man the ships, low salary, problems with training, lack of funding. Richard Compton Hall and John E Moore even in 80s predicted time when RN will not be capable to support itself. That time has come!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  eehnie on Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:55 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    For the Russian Naval Aviation is very important to work in the development of unmanned platforms. I expect to be unmanned:

    - The future Maritime Patrol / Airborne Early Warning and Control platforms (most of them shipborne, adapted to the different ship weight categories, to achieve maximum range for every ship size category).

    Very likely both roles can be unified, with more powerful features in the bigger platforms.

    Chief-in-Commnad Naval Aviation Kozhin said PAK KA till 2030 - in 10 years i doubt new VSTOL unmanned fighter will be developed.


    As for AWACS - still question manned or not, VSTOL ot no tis open,  if all ships then tiltrotor would be a logical solution. Not that much worse performance than classic shipborne AWACS but much mor emodest runaway requirements.



    The following references bolded in green, in both the interview to Kozhin and from the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 open the door to what I commented:

    http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/

    - Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
    - As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.

    The daily routine of sea pilots.  Photo Vadim Savitsky.

    At the first stage (until 2020), an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out.  We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB).  In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.

    At the second stage (2021–2030), the modernization of the entire fleet of naval aviation aircraft and helicopters and the re-equipment of coastal-based fighter-assault aviation aircraft will be continued. home base.  Naval aircraft of the radar patrol, ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles, and a promising naval aviation complex should come into service with naval aviation.

    At the third stage (2031–2050), naval aviation is expected to switch to a new generation of multifunctional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapons systems; and patrol plane far zone.  Search and rescue helicopters of the amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and offshore Arctic seas.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#211908

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft.

    During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

    Russia is creating, and will create, multiple prototypes and models of sipborne UAVs, that will be mostly VTOL, unless you think only the aircraft carrier will be able to use them. Every ship will have them. As example the Project 22800 that has not helicopters included, is including Orlan-10 UAVs.

    It will be several models of shipborne UAVs that mostly will have reconnaissance, surveillance, maritime patrol and early warning roles, with different equipment depending of the size. Also it will be some combat UAVs with anti-ship and anti-submarine armament.

    Ships without helipad will have small UAVs, ships with helipad can use UAVs until the size of an helicopter, and the aircraft carriers can have even bigger UAVs of enough size to allow strong Early Warning equipment. And this will make every ship significantly more autonomous in its level.

    At same time, there nothing that allows to assure that the new fighter of the naval aviation will be VTOL or STOVL.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:40 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    For the Russian Naval Aviation is very important to work in the development of unmanned platforms. I expect to be unmanned:

    - The future Maritime Patrol / Airborne Early Warning and Control platforms (most of them shipborne, adapted to the different ship weight categories, to achieve maximum range for every ship size category).

    Very likely both roles can be unified, with more powerful features in the bigger platforms.

    Chief-in-Commnad Naval Aviation Kozhin said PAK KA till 2030 - in 10 years i doubt new VSTOL unmanned fighter will be developed.


    As for AWACS - still question manned or not, VSTOL ot no tis open,  if all ships then tiltrotor would be a logical solution. Not that much worse performance than classic shipborne AWACS but much mor emodest runaway requirements.



    The following references bolded in green, in both the interview to Kozhin and from the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 open the door to what I commented:

    http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/

    - Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
    - As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.

    The daily routine of sea pilots.  Photo Vadim Savitsky.

    At the first stage (until 2020), an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out.  We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB).  In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.

    At the second stage (2021–2030), the modernization of the entire fleet of naval aviation aircraft and helicopters and the re-equipment of coastal-based fighter-assault aviation aircraft will be continued. home base.  Naval aircraft of the radar patrol, ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles, and a promising naval aviation complex should come into service with naval aviation.

    At the third stage (2031–2050), naval aviation is expected to switch to a new generation of multifunctional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapons systems; and patrol plane far zone.  Search and rescue helicopters of the amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and offshore Arctic seas.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#211908

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft.

    During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

    Russia is creating, and will create, multiple prototypes and models of sipborne UAVs, that will be mostly VTOL, unless you think only the aircraft carrier will be able to use them. Every ship will have them. As example the Project 22800 that has not helicopters included, is including Orlan-10 UAVs.

    It will be several models of shipborne UAVs that mostly will have reconnaissance, surveillance, maritime patrol and early warning roles, with different equipment depending of the size. Also it will be some combat UAVs with anti-ship and anti-submarine armament.

    Ships without helipad will have small UAVs, ships with helipad can use UAVs until the size of an helicopter, and the aircraft carriers can have even bigger UAVs of enough size to allow strong Early Warning equipment. And this will make every ship significantly more autonomous in its level.

    At same time, there nothing that allows to assure that the new fighter of the naval aviation will be VTOL or STOVL.

    I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  eehnie on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:21 pm

    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!

    Everyone reading my comments regularly knows that my bet for the next generation manned fighter aircraft for the Russian Naval Aviation is the Su-57.

    Combat UAVs can be a solution for smalller ships that have only some helicopter of the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 family or have not aerial combat means now. To note that in my previous comment VTOL UAVs include unmanned aircrafts of different configurations like tiltrotors, helicopters,...

    Technologically the main effort to obtain it would be in the development of unmanned control technologies, but this is coming.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:28 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!

    Everyone reading my comments regularly knows that my bet for the next generation manned fighter aircraft for the Russian Naval Aviation is the Su-57.

    Combat UAVs can be a solution for smalller ships that have only some helicopter of the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 family or have not aerial combat means now. To note that in my previous comment VTOL UAVs include unmanned aircrafts of different configurations like tiltrotors, helicopters,...

    Technologically the main effort to obtain it would be in the development of unmanned control technologies, but this is coming.


    USN experience with DASH unmanned small helicopter for ASW was a disaster, but it was almost 50 years ago!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 am

    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!


    Kubor, I m not sure what is your background in design of jet fighters to support your claims? First of all Russians already decided to replace MiG-29k and Su-33 by new VSTOL fighter.
    Chinese are developing own VSTOL fighter too.

    BTW MiG-29k performance? is just  slightly over 30 yold Yak-141. with 30% stronger engines.  Range is the same (OK Yak had a bit longer ;-) and Mi g has 25 years of improvements. Get real mate.





    kumbor wrote:
    Please compare with the status of early 70s -
    {}

    Today, with 19 destroyers/frigates. no matter how cosmically advanced and equipped they are, RN cannot defend even their homeland shores, not to mention strategically important Western approaches and vast area of North Atlantic. UK SSNs are among finest, but there are too few of them! Think logically... one ship cannot be on two places at the same time. Sea is vast. sea is cruel, and many ships need refit in regular intervals.
    Not to mention RNs incapability to man even existing naval force. No men to man the ships, low salary, problems with training, lack of funding. Richard Compton Hall and John E Moore even in 80s predicted time when RN will not be capable to support itself. That time has come!


    But defending from whom? Only Russia is potential threat. No need for bigger fleet.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:52 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!


    Kubor, I m not sure what is your background in design of jet fighters to support your claims? First of all Russians already decided to replace MiG-29k and Su-33 by new VSTOL fighter.
    Chinese are developing own VSTOL fighter too.

    BTW MiG-29k performance? is just  slightly over 30 yold Yak-141. with 30% stronger engines.  Range is the same (OK Yak had a bit longer ;-) and Mi g has 25 years of improvements. Get real mate.





    kumbor wrote:
    Please compare with the status of early 70s -
    {}

    Today, with 19 destroyers/frigates. no matter how cosmically advanced and equipped they are, RN cannot defend even their homeland shores, not to mention strategically important Western approaches and vast area of North Atlantic. UK SSNs are among finest, but there are too few of them! Think logically... one ship cannot be on two places at the same time. Sea is vast. sea is cruel, and many ships need refit in regular intervals.
    Not to mention RNs incapability to man even existing naval force. No men to man the ships, low salary, problems with training, lack of funding. Richard Compton Hall and John E Moore even in 80s predicted time when RN will not be capable to support itself. That time has come!


    But defending from whom? Only Russia is potential threat. No need for bigger fleet.

    @Gunship Democracy MiG-29, especially very advanced K, and MiG-35 variants completely outclass Yak-141 in speed, climbing, manoeuvrability and armament. No need for detailed argumentation. Look any reference data and compare. Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    I am talking about potential threat also. So called GIUK gap - vast area between Greenland, Iceland and UK was for last 70 years the main area of strategic engagement for RN. Western approaches also! Solely these two areas are a couple million square miles. Irish sea, Channel and half of North sea added. Royal Navy has not even slightest possibility of effective control of these areas of "life importance". Shame! If you aren`t aware of that, it`s your problem.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:58 pm



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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:18 am

    Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    And they did it several times before and ended up with mediocre aircraft that had no military value...

    The Yak-36 was probably the worst with no combat capability at all... so they needed a complete redesign... the Yak-38, which was pitiful.

    Next came the Yak-41 which was not really much of an improvement and was not better than contemporary aircraft of the time... MiG-29K and Su-33... the former was rejected and the Su-33 was used despite being slightly too big for the carrier.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  kumbor on Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    And they did it several times before and ended up with mediocre aircraft that had no military value...

    The Yak-36 was probably the worst with no combat capability at all... so they needed a complete redesign... the Yak-38, which was pitiful.

    Next came the Yak-41 which was not really much of an improvement and was not better than contemporary aircraft of the time... MiG-29K and Su-33... the former was rejected and the Su-33 was used despite being slightly too big for the carrier.


    Until F-35 emerged there was no supersonic STOVL aircraft, GarryB. In 1994 Russia commercially sold COMPLETE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION FOR YAK-41 TO USA. Without that foolish action, development of F-35B could have been postponed for at least five years! Russia gave full technical solution for main engine, for thrust vectoring nozzle and much more. Yak 41/141 was 1,6M multipurpose aircraft with full fighter capability, with a capable fighter radar (type of Zhuk) and sufficient 2.000kg normal / 4.000kg. overload armament carrying capability.
    SU-33 was adopted as Pogosyan`s bulldozer like business policy was successful. Otherwise, MiG-29K was completely up to the role - and much smaller.

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