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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 26, 2018 4:09 am

    Unlikely during Brezhnev times Soviet-Iranian relations were far from good.
    During World War II, Turkey’s control of the straits and the Soviet occupation of northern Iran led Moscow to renew discussions on a trans-Iran canal. These also went nowhere. But “in the 1960s, a Soviet-Iranian commission on a possible canal was established” and noted during visits to Tehran by Leonid Brezhnev and Aleksey Kosygin.
    Despite American, Turkish, and Saudi opposition, Soviet-Iranian conversations about such a canal continued albeit very quietly and slowly, Chirkin says.  But the project took on new life in the mid-1990s, when Russian and Iranian officials resumed regular meetings on the possible construction of such a canal.
    http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2016/04/russia-iran-again-discussing.html
    Update from 2016: https://vz.ru/economy/2016/4/8/804331.print.html
    https://vz.ru/economy/2018/5/31/925524.print.html

    Where did you hear this?!
    I watched a Russian talk show with Polish journalist saying this. That could well be another perceived threat by nationalists in power there.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu May 31, 2018 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat May 26, 2018 11:26 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    I watched a Russian talk show with Polish journalist saying this. That could well be another perceived threat by nationalists in power there.

    Apologies I forgot how many Rusophobic idiots were breed in Poland since US occupation Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Russia is threat to Europe. Its biggest economical partner?

    Not ot mention that Kinzhal is not cause but response of HATO actions. This one is pure example of ministry of truth.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 26, 2018 7:55 pm

    Russia's air and space forces will receive in October a new air strike complex, including a modernized long-range Tu-22M3M bomber with a new supersonic cruise missile Kh-32 of long range, Tass reported on Tuesday. The cruise missile Kh-32 is designed to destroy ground and sea targets, radar stations. It has a range of up to thousand kilometers, its speed is five times the speed of sound. Kh-32 were created on the basis of the Kh-22, which until the early 2000s were carried by Tu-22M3s. https://www.pnp.ru/politics/na-vooruzhenie-vks-rossii-postupit-neuyazvimyy-ubiyca-avianoscev.html

    According to expert Dmitry Kornev, the advanced cruise missile is designed, in the first place, to deal with enemy ships, radars and so-called radio-contrast targets, e.g. bridges, military bases, electric power plants, etc. After the launch by the Tu-22M3, the missile climbs to 40 km, transitions to level flight, approaches the target and dives toward it. Since the Kh-32 has an inertial navigation system and a radar homing head, its accuracy is independent of GPS/GLONASS navigation satellite updates. Presumably, the weapon has a range of 1,000 km and a speed of 5,000 km/h at the least. The combination of speed and flight path makes it virtually invulnerable to enemy surface-to-air missiles and fighter jets.
    The new cruise missile is a derivative of the Kh-22 family that has been until recently the mainstay of the weapons suites of both the Tu-22M3 supersonic bombers and the older, now-decommissioned Tu-22M2s. Designed to break the enemy's air defense and attack carrier battle groups, Russian media reported that the missiles are able to exchange information after launch via datalink and able to withstand 20mm gun fire as well as small surface to air missiles.
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/august-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4306-next-gen-kh-32-ant-ship-cruise-missile-tests-drawing-to-a-close-in-russia.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22M#Specifications_(Tu-22M3): unrefueled range: 6,800 km+1,000km AshM=7,800km,
    pretty impressive combination! Just with these & Kinzhals on MiG-31s, no-go zones can be created for enemy ships w/o having any TAKRs/CVNs going there.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu May 31, 2018 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link, text)
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat May 26, 2018 9:39 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Pretty impressive combination! Just with these & Kinzhals on Mig-31s, no-go zones can be created for enemy ships w/o having any TAKRs/CVNs going there.

    That's the idea. That's why aggressors form HATO (including Poland) feel threatened. I still beleive TAKR is best option for Russia but I am aware it is not gonna be implemented.



    BTW neither Kinzhal nor Kg-32 are not cruise missiles. They are aeroballistic missiles ot ALBM if anybody prefers Smile

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-launched_ballistic_missile
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:53 pm

    As I was saying:
    The President of Russia set the task: by 2024 the country should enter the top five of the world's largest economies. Similar orders by Vladimir Putin over the past ten years have sounded repeatedly, but Russia, with a GDP of $ 1.72 trillion ( IMF data ) in 2017, not only failed to enter the top five economies, but also to approach world leaders - USA, China, Japan, Germany and Great Britain. What can you not say about California - for the same ten years, the American state, which occupies only 2.4 percent of Russia's area, was ableto achieve great success and by the size of GDP (2.7 trillion dollars in 2017) to surpass not only Russia, but also larger economies. ..Russian authorities have been trying to introduce Russia into the world's top five economies for many years, but we have not succeeded in replicating the success of California, and Russia's nominal GDP lags behind the US state's gross domestic product by one trillion dollars. Despite this, the Kremlin does not lose its spirit: Vladimir Putin on May 7, 2018, on the day of his inauguration, signed a decree that Russia should enter the top 5 economies by 2024. Such statements the president made before: in 2007 the head of state said that Russia should enter the top five by 2017, in 2008 the border was pushed aside by the year 2020. In 2011, Putin made similar statements twice: according to the first (in June), the upper limit of Russia's entry into the top 5 economies of the world was postponed until 2021, according to the second (in September) - the head of state considered this task absolutely feasible by 2016 year. In 2012, Putin shortened this term: speaking to the State Duma , he said that "in the next two to three years, Russia will be among the five largest economies in the world" - that is, it should happen no later than 2015. However, against the backdrop of the global economic crisis of 2007-2008, sanctions against Russia, which followed in 2014 because of Ukraine and Crimea, the fall in oil prices and the weakening of the ruble, the task proved difficult to achieve. At the end of 2017, Russia's GDP grew by 1.5 percent, and inflation was the lowest in modern history (2.5 percent). .. However, despite these achievements, in the ten years that have passed since Vladimir Putin's first statement about Russia's entry into the top 5 economies, the country, according to the IMF, has not been raised in the list above the eighth position (in 2008, 2012, 2013), although it did not fall below the 12th (2009, 2015, 2016 and 2017). ..
    However, according to the Russian Minister of Economic Development Maxim Oreshkin , the speech in the presidential decree is it's not about joining the list of the five largest economies in the world in terms of nominal or real GDP, but about the top 5 countries with the largest gross product at purchasing power parity. This indicator is considered very conditional: it is calculated in US dollars and establishes the purchasing power of the countries' currency in relation to one set of goods (for example, bigaku), eliminating the difference in prices and leveling the jumps in the exchange rates. This indicator is published annually by the IMF and the World Bank only for states. According to the IMF data for 2017 and World Bank data for 2016, Russia ranks sixth in the PPP GDP rank, the United States was in second place. Thus, according to the GDP of PPPs, Russia really was on the threshold of the top five leaders of the rating, and only one position separates it from entering the top 5.
    However, the PPP GDP indicator, despite its widespread use, does not really give an idea of ​​the welfare of people living in the territory of a country, but shows how much in US dollars all goods and services produced by Russia or any other country for the year. In order to assess the welfare of the population, economists usually use GDP per capita at purchasing power parity - an indicator that is calculated in US dollars and allows you to see how much a country produces goods and services per person per year. ..
    Russia in this ranking does not fall even in the top 50 countries and takes, according to the IMF, 52nd place from 27.83 thousand dollars per person. The United States does not enter the top ten countries and takes 12th place from 59.5 thousand dollars per capita. https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/05/29/californication/
    59.5/27.83= Russia's per capita GDP is 2.13x < than USA's.
    IMO, capital (pun intended) ships, incl. new CVNs, will be very hard to justify building any time soon!
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:50 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:As I was saying:
    59.5/27.83= Russia's per capita GDP is 2.13x < than USA's.
    IMO, capital (pun intended) ships, incl. new CVNs, will be very hard to justify building any time soon!

    If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:58 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:..........

    If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?

    You have the answer to this question in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, that I posted for you multiple times, but you hate to read.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:10 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?

    You have the answer to this question in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, that I posted for you multiple times, but you hate to read.

    One thats says that they have 100k supercarrier already under construction?

    Sure, that's some quality material right there... lol1

    But even morons need to read something so enjoy I guess Razz
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:17 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:..........

    If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?

    Well the Kuz will need to be replaced, it really hasn't aged well, and the future looks bleak, so better to have 'em then not.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:32 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?

    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:You have the answer to this question in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, that I posted for you multiple times, but you hate to read.

    One thats says that they have 100k supercarrier already under construction?

    Sure, that's some quality material right there... lol1

    But even morons need to read something so enjoy I guess Razz

    The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is the "given Russia's defense doctrine" in the refered to the Navy. It was your reference.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:36 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:..........

    If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)

    And again, what for? In what way do carriers justify their price and investment given Russia's defense doctrine?

    Well the Kuz will need to be replaced, it really hasn't aged well, and the future looks bleak, so better to have 'em then not.

    The kuz wasn't used for anything worth its price. I join PD' view. They should figure what they carrier concept they need first and why they need it and then build it.

    All they have said till now is Shtorm is as capable as Nimitz if not more and it will be a supercarier. Reminds me soviet union building everything western countries build only because they build it with no need at all for soviets.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:02 pm

    Isos wrote:The kuz wasn't used for anything worth its price. I join PD' view. They should figure what they carrier concept they need first and why they need it and then build it.

    All they have said till now is Shtorm is as capable as Nimitz if not more and it will be a supercarier. Reminds me soviet union building everything western countries build only because they build it with no need at all for soviets.

    The reason it didn't do anything was because of Russia's decline.
    Now that Russia is reasserting itself, you honestly think they won't need carriers?

    Granted, not sure what the hell Naval Command was smoking, when they simply pushed for the Shtorm, without any back-up plans.

    It's not always that bad, making some SLCMs out of the Boreis like the U.S did with the Ohio, would be a great move.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:18 pm

    Now that Russia is reasserting itself, you honestly think they won't need carriers?

    Idk if they need it or not. They should know what they need carrier for, not me.

    But if the reason to have it is because US has them ... then Putin should change its admirals.

    And if the new missiles like tzirkon are so good at destroying carriers they shouldn't build them because more and more countries even the poorest can have antiship missiles, even armed groups like Houtis or hezbollah have some.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:27 pm

    If we're gonna go by that logic, then 10/2.13=~4.7.
    So 2 new carriers, should be very much doable for Russia.
    (10 currently deployed U.S carriers)
    There's no direct correlation as many other factors r involved & they must be included in that equation, incl., but not limited to:
    available/suitable shipyards; other shipbuilding plans & priorities; manpower (incl. pilots) & workforce; avail. port/base infrastructure or its absence; new aircraft production, escort/supply ships & subs needed; demographics; fluctuating oil prices; domestic political in/stability; international relations/sanctions; possible future costly interventions/relief on RF perimeter & in the M/FE/S.Asia/Africa/L. America; & new counter CVN weapons already being developed, to name a few. a case in point: they r building new base on the Caspian after completing 1 on the Black Sea, & they won't be used by CVNs:
    Why Russia needs a new military base on the "inner" sea
    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/42867?utm_source=24smi&utm_medium=referral&utm_term=2599&utm_content=1687732&utm_campaign=1291

    Doable isn't = beneficial after all the above things r considered. The doctrines may & will be changed as needed, they r not written in stone.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:

    The reason it didn't do anything was because of Russia's decline.
    Now that Russia is reasserting itself, you honestly think they won't need carriers?

    Surely before 2030s. Economy first. Read technology. Now as every child know a new economy cycle starts (Kondratiev wave if you prefer). either Russia gets on train or gets to league of Iran / North Korea (proud independent but not able to withstand US aggression dure to small economy and fairly low technology level) . IMHO thet's why first Russia developed Kiznhals & co to keep enemies at bay. Overseas operations are on hold till economy can sustain more effort.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:21 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:......
    The reason it didn't do anything was because of Russia's decline.
    Now that Russia is reasserting itself, you honestly think they won't need carriers?
    .......

    If they are serious about reasserting themselves they should focus on figuring out how to build more than handful of frigates and forget about money pits like carriers

    They never knew how to build them properly, they don't know how to operate them properly and above all they have no need for them whatsoever.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:53 am

    PapaDragon wrote:If they are serious about reasserting themselves they should focus on figuring out how to build more than handful of frigates and forget about money pits like carriers

    They never knew how to build them properly, they don't know how to operate them properly and above all they have no need for them whatsoever.

    Bhhahaha........ if they don't have anything to protect those Frigate, then those Frigates themselves will be money pits.

    BS, the union collapsed before they could build more, and that ain't a reason to not build 'em.
    The U.S says the same about the Chinese, is that deterring the Chinese, nope.
    Protect your ships from Enemy Air-power and AWACS to guide long range munitions.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:There's no direct correlation as many other factors r involved & they must be included in that equation, incl., but not limited to:
    available/suitable shipyards; other shipbuilding plans & priorities; manpower (incl. pilots) & workforce; avail. port/base infrastructure or its absence; new aircraft production, escort/supply ships & subs needed; demographics; fluctuating oil prices; domestic political in/stability; international relations/sanctions; possible future costly interventions/relief on RF perimeter & in the M/FE/S.Asia/Africa/L. America; & new counter CVN weapons already being developed, to name a few. a case in point: they r building new base on the Caspian after completing 1 on the Black Sea, & they won't be used by CVNs:
    Why Russia needs a new military base on the "inner" sea
    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/42867?utm_source=24smi&utm_medium=referral&utm_term=2599&utm_content=1687732&utm_campaign=1291

    Doable isn't = beneficial after all the above things r considered. The doctrines may & will be changed as needed, they r not written in stone.

    Semantics, either way it's doable, and the worsening geopolitical situation may force it's need.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Surely  before 2030s. Economy first. Read technology. Now as every child know a new economy cycle starts (Kondratiev wave if you prefer). either Russia gets on train or gets to league of Iran / North Korea (proud independent but not able to withstand US aggression dure to small economy and fairly low technology level)  . IMHO thet's why first Russia developed Kiznhals & co to keep enemies at bay. Overseas operations are on hold till economy can sustain more effort.

    The economy is at least capable of handling 1 more, and if they start in the 2020s by 2030s the can build another carrier.
    BTW how many Carriers will flippin India have by then, 4,5?

    Isos wrote:Idk if they need it or not. They should know what they need carrier for, not me.

    But if the reason to have it is because US has them ... then Putin should change its admirals.

    And if the new missiles like tzirkon are so good at destroying carriers they shouldn't build them because more and more countries even the poorest can have antiship missiles, even armed groups like Houtis or hezbollah have some.

    Not all Russia's allies will be close to Russia's borders.

    What, the Admirals want to protect their new Ships from enemy Air-power, get rid of them.

    If the MTCR didn't exist, then we'd be in agreement.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:14 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:If they are serious about reasserting themselves they should focus on figuring out how to build more than handful of frigates and forget about money pits like carriers

    They never knew how to build them properly, they don't know how to operate them properly and above all they have no need for them whatsoever.

    Bhhahaha........ if they don't have anything to protect those Frigate, then those Frigates themselves will be money pits.

    Yo "genius", do you know why US has all those destroyers floating about? They are there to protect aircraft carriers​, not the other way around.


    AlfaT8 wrote:BS, the union collapsed before they could build more, and that ain't a reason to not build 'em.
    The U.S says the same about the Chinese, is that deterring the Chinese, nope.
    Protect your ships from Enemy Air-power and AWACS to guide long range munitions....

    "Union" died and rotted away 30 years ago. Accept it already.

    Midway was 8 decades ago. In this day and age you fight aircraft with missiles.


    AlfaT8 wrote:Semantics, either way it's doable, and the worsening geopolitical situation may force it's need.

    Only thing that can force them to waste money on carriers is if someone travels back in time and stops missiles from being invented.

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Not all Russia's allies will be close to Russia's borders.

    What, the Admirals want to protect their new Ships from enemy Air-power, get rid of them.....

    In that case those allies are fucked because why bother with allies away from borders when even ones close to borders have notoriously​ shitty loyalty?

    As for ones away from the border I give you example of Angola back in CW. One of many.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:26 am

    The economy is at least capable of handling 1 more, and if they start in the 2020s by 2030s the can build another carrier.
    BTW how many Carriers will flippin India have by then, 4,5?
    Capable isn't = that 100% it will happen. In that decade, many events can derail/delay it. India has a huge trade surplus, but still builds her CVs even if she doesn't really need them much, as some suggested, to support domestic economy & industrial/naval shipbuilding base; her geopolitical situation is also very different.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:37 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Surely  before 2030s. Economy first. Read technology. Now as every child know a new economy cycle starts (Kondratiev wave if you prefer). either Russia gets on train or gets to league of Iran / North Korea (proud independent but not able to withstand US aggression dure to small economy and fairly low technology level)  . IMHO thet's why first Russia developed Kiznhals & co to keep enemies at bay. Overseas operations are on hold till economy can sustain more effort.

    The economy is at least capable of handling 1 more, and if they start in the 2020s by 2030s the can build another carrier.

    if you spend 5blns on CVN you dotn have it on other ships or missiles that keep US at bay. Or R&D.
    Besides did you look at map recently?! where around Russia do you have need for ACs?!  norther route? Kamchatka?! or Baltic/Caspian /Black /Mediterranean ?  Kiznahl makes safe zone more less 2000 form Russian borders.



    BTW how many Carriers will flippin India have by then, 4,5?

    Flippin?!  affraid  affraid  affraid  they by 2030 will be bigger then US and then challenge China.

    Russia GDP in 2017 is like 4000 blns $
    Growth 1,8%
    Putin wants to 2025 have 6000 BLns


    India's GDP PPP in 2017 was 9,459,002$
    growth 7,5%
    Modi wants to grow it 2x till 2025.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tingsay on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:07 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:

    Flippin?!  affraid  affraid  affraid  they by 2030 will be bigger then US and then challenge China.

    Russia GDP in 2017 is like 4000 blns $
    Growth 1,8%
    Putin wants to 2025 have 6000 BLns

    .

    India's GDP PPP in 2017 was 9,459,002$
    growth 7,5%
    Modi wants to grow it 2x till 2025.
    Unfortunately, India will most likely never surpass the US in GDP. You are severely overestimating India's economic might. The Indian middle class is a myth.

    The US (and China, to a lesser extent) has been very lucky in that it rose to superpower status at a time when natural resource depletion and overpopulation wasn't really that big of a problem.

    Ghandi once said "The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed".
    India will not be able to achieve a first world status unless the current middle class all the way up to the elites of the world gives away a huge chunk of their position. China will not let that happen.
    The world cannot support 7 billion middle class or even half that. There are only certain number of slots left and the fight will  not be about increasing it, but by kicking somebody else out(not necessarily by force)  so you can get in. We are at a point now where human progress is really just a conversion or rotation, unlike the past 2000 years.

    Interesting times are ahead.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 pm

    Russia is short of people & could allow mass immigration from India:
    According to a Wall Street Journal report, an estimated 65% of the Brahmin households in India, with about 40M [out of 61.5M total] people, lived on less than $100 a month in 2004; this number dropped to about 50% in 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin
    https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/brahmins-in-india/234783 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
    Then both will win: those who remain will have more opportunities to become the middle class, & Russia will gain more workforce that won't have a problem learning Russian- Hindi is an Indo-European language derived from Sanskrit. The RF military could also use them as the UK did. It happened before: the Gypsies from N. India been in the Russian Empire for centuries, many got Russified but they r from a different ethnic & cultural background. Russian Gypsy music:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIqc2OQ2qm0
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:13 pm

    Tingsay wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:

    Flippin?!  affraid  affraid  affraid  they by 2030 will be bigger then US and then challenge China.

    Russia GDP in 2017 is like 4000 blns $
    Growth 1,8%
    Putin wants to 2025 have 6000 BLns

    .

    India's GDP PPP in 2017 was 9,459,002$
    growth 7,5%
    Modi wants to grow it 2x till 2025.
    Unfortunately, India will most likely never surpass the US in GDP. You are severely overestimating India's economic might. The Indian middle class is a myth.


    like in USA or western Europe then Smile I live in Eu and trust me times are changing here. for worse fr most of population. After 2007 Smile


    The US (and China, to a lesser extent) has been very lucky in that it rose to superpower status at a time when natural resource depletion and overpopulation wasn't really that big of a problem.
    There are vast resources still, just western way is unsustainable. Overpopulation in India is indeed a problem though. 3,3 mln km2 is fairly tight for 1,4 blns of people. Perhaps underwater cities? India can be a leader of...


    Ghandi once said "The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed".
    no way Gandhi was so much anti American and antisemitic?! lol1 lol1 lol1



    India will not be able to achieve a first world status unless the current middle class all the way up to the elites of the world gives away a huge chunk of their position. China will not let that happen.
    like China has much of a choice ....


    The world cannot support 7 billion middle class or even half that. There are only certain number of slots left and the fight will  not be about increasing it, but by kicking somebody else out(not necessarily by force)  so you can get in. We are at a point now where human progress is really just a conversion or rotation, unlike the past 2000 years.
    Interesting times are ahead.

    depends on how would you define "middle class". In west gen really will go down. it is in making now. In China and India people are going up. at some poit botj levels can potentially meet. Besides India is only like 18% of world population and not necessarily will increase its % rate.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Yo "genius", do you know why US has all those destroyers floating about? They are there to protect aircraft carriers​, not the other way around.

    Yo ma man, when the enemy has air-power and you don't, guess who's Ships go to the bottom of the sea.

    "Union" died and rotted away 30 years ago. Accept it already.

    Midway was 8 decades ago. In this day and age you fight aircraft with missiles.

    How does the Union's death translate to, "they can't build 'em", reality is they can build it, Accept it already.

    And just like 8 decades ago, planes are still a threat, will you have enough missiles for both planes and ships.

    Only thing that can force them to waste money on carriers is if someone travels back in time and stops missiles from being invented.

    Or pick their ships off, as soon as they leave air-cover from land, forcing the matter.

    In that case those allies are fucked because why bother with allies away from borders when even ones close to borders have notoriously​ shitty loyalty?

    As for ones away from the border I give you example of Angola back in CW. One of many.

    Bhahaha...... right, their loyalty is sh%tty because you don't have what it takes to back your alliance up, you want influence, you need the ships to back it up.

    CW?


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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