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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:30 am

    Pantsir is 3 in 1. CIWS, short and medium range sam with new missiles. Tor is very good but expensive and doesn't bbring much more in terms of capacities compare to pantsir.

    Last version tested is a module that you put on a flat surface on the ship and works by itself. Which is very good on tanker, landing ships or carriers without increasig the ship's price. 1 tor for two ships.just put it on the one that is deployed and trasfert it on the other one when the first goes in its homebase.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:03 am

    Supposedly this should be 22350M?
    Its the same model we saw previously in 2016 or 2017.

    While its '22350 style' there is no way in hell its a serious representation of an 8000ton 22350M, could be a Lider concept.
    The represented firepower would make even upgraded Nakhimov desperately start searching for ways to 'improve potency'.

    Thats 96 cells of probably Redut then 120 UKSK cells and a further 192 cells of what looks like naval Tor aft, plus 64 Pantsir-M missiles & from recollection there are even more VLS aft of the hangar that we can't see from this angle.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  kumbor on Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Gun looks rather small for the size of the ship too...

    If there are no difference in combat capabilities between Tor and Pantsir, I think that they should work out those minor differences in stealth, range and weight.

    Both use command guided missiles, but TOR is mostly focussed on anti munition use... ie shooting down incoming enemy threats... Hellfire missiles and the Apache helicopters that are launching them for example. It normally operates with armoured vehicles but when on a ship or located with a large SAM system its purpose is to defeat incoming HARMs, which would make it useful to have with an S-300V4 battery and also on board a ship.

    Pantsir is also able to engage incoming missiles and weapons of all types, but also includes guns to deal with surface targets out to about 5km, and of course in the latest models the range is rather astounding... 40-50km.

    Personally I would say if you can carry both then do so... the 3D search radar and AESA tracking radar system of the TOR could be replaced with the ships own organic AESA arrays, so the system could be fully integrated into the ships infrastructure...

    Of course the EO systems and AESA radar could also be used with Pantsir, but I would keep the Pantsirs organic sensors as a useful addition to the systems already fitted to the ship.

    The TOR missile is relatively short and very compact so you could put bin launchers all over the ship... unlike Redut and UKSK launchers which are 8-12 metres deep and need to be positioned near the centre of the vessel where the deck space is deepest.

    In fact you could fit an extra deck level at the middle section of the ship and fill it with TOR launchers...

    So, UKSK & Redut don`t need as much "deck space" as they need more HULL DEPTH and HULL VOLUME. Deck space is linked with area - площадь, in square meters or square feet, while usable hull depth is more linked with height/length and volume in cubic meters or feet. These are two different measures - as we learn in the initial grades of elementary school, dear Garry B!
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:Both use command guided missiles, but TOR is mostly focussed on anti munition use

    So this explains why Tor is used on larger ships, where missile defence is more important than CIWS. Using also Pantsir would be great on frigates that might engage in battles with other ships or coastal defence. Using only Tor would on the other hand make sense on CVNs, that are only likely to be engaged with missiles (and torpedoes).
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:52 pm

    So, UKSK & Redut don`t need as much "deck space" as they need more HULL DEPTH and HULL VOLUME. Deck space is linked with area - площадь, in square meters or square feet, while usable hull depth is more linked with height/length and volume in cubic meters or feet. These are two different measures - as we learn in the initial grades of elementary school, dear Garry B!

    What you say is not totally true. UKSK takes more deck space than some other VLS because it weights more. Look US ships with VLS and compare to uksk and you will see they are much more compact than uksk.

    New tor VLS with the new smaller missile would allow a great volume of missile for a small deck space. Something like two dozens instead of one uksk.

    Russia had a shtill version with 24 tubes per vls but isn't build because of weight.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  kumbor on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 pm

    Isos wrote:
    So, UKSK & Redut don`t need as much "deck space" as they need more HULL DEPTH and HULL VOLUME. Deck space is linked with area - площадь, in square meters or square feet, while usable hull depth is more linked with height/length and volume in cubic meters or feet. These are two different measures - as we learn in the initial grades of elementary school, dear Garry B!

    What you say is not totally true. UKSK takes more deck space than some other VLS because it weights more. Look US ships with VLS and compare to uksk and you will see they are much more compact than uksk.

    New tor VLS with the new smaller missile would allow a great volume of missile for a small deck space. Something like two dozens instead of one uksk.

    Russia had a shtill version with 24 tubes per vls but isn't build because of weight.

    I didn`t say that it does not need deck space, but that it doesn`t need as much. I`ve also noticed that UKSK is much bulkier than US VLS Mk.41 or equivalent. E.g. Kinzhal/Klinok as early soviet VLS has a drum for eight missiles. One firing unit normally comprises four such drums. Fully loaded it weighs some 50 tons - short range AA missile system of a substantial weight.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:12 am

    All those fantastic weapon systems will be of little use if ship spends half of its duty in dock.

    But even the US does this... the last time the USAF and the USN had the same fighter was the F-4 Phantom... and even today the F-35s they use are not the same and not really that compatible.

    There were attempts at unification... the S-300 missile systems were all supposed to be the same, but the requirements were too different, so there was the S-300F, S-300V, and S-300P, for Navy, Army, and Air Force respectively.

    Today, there are still cross department systems, but often modified for the service... so Army and Navy use TOR and while the Army has a Tunguska gun/missile system and the Navy has a Kashtan gun/missile system, and the Air Force has the Pantsir gun/missile system... it is rather likely that the Tunguska will be replaced by a Pantsir system on an Army chassis and that Kashtan will be replaced by two types of Pantsirs (one stealthy for new vessels and one less stealthy for upgrades to existing ships).

    The Manpad is shared across the services... Verba/Igla-S, and new models SOSNA also seem to be going to be offered across the board... having a small container launch tube and laser beam riding guidance it would be rather suitable as a UCAV armament too...

    New Russian ships are multi function and modular, and while they might introduce different ships in each category, the sensors and propulsion and weapons are being standardised into more and more unified launch systems.

    It is important to bear in mind that in the mid 1970s the US was just about to introduce a couple of missiles into service... (Harpoon and Tomahawk) the soviets had at least 7 missiles already in service...

    If there are no difference in combat capabilities between Tor and Pantsir, I think that they should work out those minor differences in stealth, range and weight.

    They are different and have different performance against different targets... both are command guided, but the TOR could be directed in any direction no matter where the launcher is by directing a climb at launch...

    Americans seem to have also acknowledged the advantage of having several destroyer and frigate classes in service at the same time. But still it's only two classes each. Extremes are never good.

    The Russian navy has a different situation... from inland seas to ocean going needs including in the arctic.

    Pantsir is 3 in 1. CIWS, short and medium range sam with new missiles.

    With the new missiles with four missiles in each tube they offer seriously good anti swarm performance too...

    Tor is very good but expensive and doesn't bbring much more in terms of capacities compare to pantsir.

    To be clear the system for TOR is expensive because it has high quality radars... but the latest Pantsir also has AESA arrays too... and sophisticated and expensive optics...

    Last version tested is a module that you put on a flat surface on the ship and works by itself. Which is very good on tanker, landing ships or carriers without increasig the ship's price. 1 tor for two ships.just put it on the one that is deployed and trasfert it on the other one when the first goes in its homebase.

    Would be nice to give an otherwise unprotected ship some self defence capacity, but integrated systems make sense on military ships.

    When you go into real battle and need to take otherwise civilian ships into combat it would be very useful to add such systems as otherwise they would be sitting ducks... but I don't think they would do this on a military ship except possibly to boost performance otherwise found lacking...

    So, UKSK & Redut don`t need as much "deck space" as they need more HULL DEPTH and HULL VOLUME. Deck space is linked with area - площадь, in square meters or square feet, while usable hull depth is more linked with height/length and volume in cubic meters or feet. These are two different measures - as we learn in the initial grades of elementary school, dear Garry B!

    Shame they don't teach manners too. Razz

    Irrespective of the technical terminology I think I was clear about what I was talking about and lets leave it at that shall we.

    So this explains why Tor is used on larger ships, where missile defence is more important than CIWS. Using also Pantsir would be great on frigates that might engage in battles with other ships or coastal defence. Using only Tor would on the other hand make sense on CVNs, that are only likely to be engaged with missiles (and torpedoes).

    The thing is that the Soviets and Russians have a lot of experience with anti ship missiles of a huge range of types, so if you look at the weapon load outs for their ships, you will see that naval TOR is only on Destroyers, Cruisers, and Carriers, but you will also see those vessels also have 30mm AK series gun turrets and Kashtan or Kashtan-M... which is pretty much naval Pantsir...

    I rather suspect any CVN that they actually put into service (would be their first), will have Pantsir, naval TOR, S-350, S-400, and S-500 on board... and it will likely have at least 4 UKSK launchers... even just for the anti submarine role. It will also very likely have PAKET anti torpedo torpedos too.

    I keep telling GD... these wont be western type carriers... they will be Russian carriers.

    . Kinzhal/Klinok as early soviet VLS has a drum for eight missiles. One firing unit normally comprises four such drums. Fully loaded it weighs some 50 tons - short range AA missile system of a substantial weight.

    New missiles smaller and lighter with twice the capacity and likely packed in fixed launch tubes, with better performance.

    I didn`t say that it does not need deck space, but that it doesn`t need as much.

    Depending on the ships there are only limited places they will fit because of the depth of the systems...

    They had similar issues with Kashtan vs AK turrets... you can pretty much bolt an AK turret almost anyway but it needs below deck ammo handling space.

    The Kashtan on the other hand requires a lot more under deck space for ammo including missiles.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:23 am

    In fact in a sense the Soviets had better crossover development of SAMs than the west...

    The only naval SAM with no ground based equivalent would be the Goblet SA-N-3, but otherwise the rest are land based systems including both air force and army based systems.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:20 pm

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/october-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6579-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-qualifies-poliment-redut-sam-against-air-surface-targets.html

    Nice article that describes poliment redut. It seems there is two long range missile 9M96E2 and 9M96E2-1 that have same capacities but not the weight and size.

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Labrador on Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:52 pm

    Isos wrote:https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/october-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6579-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-qualifies-poliment-redut-sam-against-air-surface-targets.html

    Nice article that describes poliment redut. It seems there is two long range missile 9M96E2 and 9M96E2-1 that have same capacities but not the weight and size.
    What size do one cellule ? and same for UKSK (i have 9 m long ) i search also for others Russians VLS all even old design exist a topic please ?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:34 pm

    9M96 shooting vid, presumably the previously noted exercise.

    Quite a bit of roll there, makes me curious about quite how much motion various VLS systems are actually capable of working in? (partly also because there has been some questions at Balancer about whether 22800 will actually be able to launch Kalibr in offshore conditions)
    Presumably they must be able to operate with quite a lot of motion or navies would have stuck with arm launchers but it strikes me I've never really seen VLS launches (including US ones) in notably rough weather.
    The old arm launchers at least were able to lock relative to the ship for loading & then operate stabilised like a gun mount pointing at target.

    The turnover to horizontal seems maybe a bit different/quicker than I remember from 20380 firings? Maybe just that we have a side angle.

    Couple of stills via Balancer, looks like 2 different versions used

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:25 pm

    Launch looks fast.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:45 am

    AFAIK the TOR system just blows the missile up into the air and then the side thruster rocket motors in the nose fire a side thrust to yaw the missile in the direction of the target and then the opposite side rockets fire to stop the yaw and the main motor fires up to get the missile on its way... I would expect if the launcher is seriously moving the system would still be effective... the missile manouvers in flight so it does not need to point super accurate at precisely where the missile needs to go... a few degrees here or there can be compensated in flight...

    In a heavy roll I would be more worried about the sensors keeping a lock on a small manouvering target rather than how safe it is to launch...
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:28 pm

    Can we expect pantsir instead of kashtan for the next gorshkovs being build ? It seems to be the same size as kashtan and is introduced on karakurt so it passed all the necessary tests (or will in a short period of time).
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Hole on Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:36 pm

    I hope so.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:41 am

    Gorshkovs have Palma/Palash rather than Kashtan.
    Kasatonov at least is still using them.
    Palash/Palma don't have the automatic missile reload underneath the mount (apparently only manual reloads) & rumor has it the missiles its supposed to have don't work.

    22350M almost certainly will use Pantsir-M.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:26 am

    Kashtan seems to be being replaced... either with the cheaper simpler Palash/Palma, which uses simple laser beam riding SOSNA missiles with a range of 10km, or the new Pantsir system with new missiles that are reloaded from below deck magazines...

    They are very close to introducing the SOSNA missiles into army service to replace the ZU-23-2 and SA-13/SA-9 systems.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:52 pm

    Second Admiral Gorshkov frigate nears completion

    Construction of the Russian Navy’s second Project 22350 frigate is almost complete, with the ship poised to begin factory trials in November, Severnaya Verf shipyard’s director general has told Jane’s .

    “The second Project 22350 frigate, Admiral Kasatonov , is now 99% complete,” Igor Ponomaryov said. “The first phase of the ship’s factory trials is scheduled for November, and both factory and state trials will be completed next year. We’re planning to deliver the ship to the navy by the end of 2019 or even earlier.”

    Construction of the third and fourth Project 22350 ships, Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov , is also well under way, he said.



    https://www.janes.com/article/83458/second-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-nears-completion?fbclid=IwAR17mcI9Qcb1AXszOTd7EHscqtQTWj8EKCF9MxSuZhPV_CwbecqBltunSx0

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:39 pm

    Apparently Navy is looking into ordering 2 or 4 more Gorshkovs unshaven
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8432/

    If Gorshkov is actually working properly now & with 20386/22350M some way away it makes sense.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:51 pm

    hoom wrote:Apparently Navy is looking into ordering 2 or 4 more Gorshkovs unshaven
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8432/

    If Gorshkov is actually working properly now & with 20386/22350M some way away it makes sense.


    Could it be that they are finally coming to their senses?

    If they do this it will be decision almost on par with ordering 6 more Borei-A subs in it's intelligence and wisdom!!!

    Stopping vessel production after couple of hulls (which they do routinely) is idiotic approach and if they finally managed to get these things to work they should definitely order as many as possible.

    4 for North Fleet and 4 for Pacific Fleet are more than enough to get Navy through rough patch until they get their stuff in order, one Gorshkov easily fills in for one Udaloy.

    Now they need to stop looking into ordering and start ordering.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:17 pm

    i remind that we have already 2 of 6 Gorshkovs ordered but not laid down yet.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Could it be that they are finally coming to their senses?

    If they do this it will be decision almost on par with ordering 6 more Borei-A subs in it's intelligence and wisdom!!!

    Stopping vessel production after couple of hulls (which they do routinely) is idiotic approach and if they finally managed to get these things to work they should definitely order as many as possible.

    4 for North Fleet and 4 for Pacific Fleet are more than enough to get Navy through rough patch until they get their stuff in order, one Gorshkov easily fills in for one Udaloy.

    Now they need to stop looking into ordering and start ordering.

    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:20 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:..............
    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.

    I know but they were talking about discontinuing Gorshkovs and switching to Super-Gorshkovs (their usual MO)

    If this latest news about 2-4 more is true then it means that they finally dropped their usual BS method, at least for now
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:25 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:..............
    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.

    I know but they were talking about discontinuing Gorshkovs and switching to Super-Gorshkovs (their usual MO)

    If this latest news about 2-4 more is true then it means that they finally dropped their usual BS method, at least for now

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:32 pm

    George1 wrote:.........

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer

    I know and will be ready for production God knows when

    Keep making standard ones until then

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