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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:29 pm

    The draft design of "Super-Gorshkov" is completed

    The designers of the Northern Design Bureau completed the preliminary design of the ship of Project 22350M, an enlarged version of the frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type. About this Mil.Press FlotProm was informed by an informed industry source.The work was completed on time, a preliminary design was prepared by the end of autumn, he added.

    According to the interlocutor of the publication, the next stage is the acceptance of work by the relevant commission. This will happen before the end of the year, the source added.

    Mil.Press FlotProm does not yet have official confirmation of this information.

    It takes 12 to 18 months to complete the design of the frigate for Project 22350M, nicknamed "Super-Pots" in the industry. The construction of the lead ship of the new series will take 4-5 years.

    Given the timing of the development of design documentation, the construction can begin no earlier than 2020.

    According to a senior naval source of the publication, November 19 at the Academy of the General Staff passedscientific and practical conference of the Navy, which once again raised the question of a critical reduction in the number of ships in the ocean zone. "In this sense, the continued construction of both Admiral Gorshkov-type frigates and larger Project 22350M ships is vital for maintaining the presence of the Russian Navy in the far sea and especially ocean zones," said Mil.Press FlotProm interlocutor.

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    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA31/
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:06 pm

    dino00 wrote:The draft design of "Super-Gorshkov" is completed
    .............
    It takes 12 to 18 months to complete the design of the frigate for Project 22350M, nicknamed "Super-Pots" in the industry. The construction of the lead ship of the new series will take 4-5 years...........

    lol1

    Another jewel of machine translation: Super Pots (Super Gorshkov)

    But it will not dethrone the best one so far: Great Onions (Veliki Luki)



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    Post  dino00 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:12 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The draft design of "Super-Gorshkov" is completed
    .............
    It takes 12 to 18 months to complete the design of the frigate for Project 22350M, nicknamed "Super-Pots" in the industry. The construction of the lead ship of the new series will take 4-5 years...........

    lol1

    Another jewel of machine translation: Super Pots (Super Gorshkov)

    But it will not dethrone the best one so far: Great Onions (Veliki Luki)




    I didn't corrected because I thought was a new nickname that I never heard lol1

    Pack yes is good also.

    But it's incredible that we can understand Russians newspapers, without doing anything, the page automatically converts to English. Better than going to the Moon.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:31 pm

    So that means that design should be completed by mid 2021, and by end 2026 or mid 2027 the acceptance tests of the lead ship could start.

    This is consistent with what was announced earlier this year

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6415468


    MOSCOW, May 9. / TASS /. Russia plans to build 12 modernized project 22350M frigates, each of which will carry on board up to 48 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon cruise missiles.

    "The lead ship in the series is planned to be handed over to the Navy in 2027," a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS on Thursday.
    According to him, "by the end of 2019, a technical project for a ship with a displacement of 7 thousand tons should be developed, capable of carrying up to 48 strike missiles" Caliber "," Onyx "and" Zircon "." In total, it is planned to build 12 such frigates, 11 of which will be handed over to the customer within the framework of the new state armament program, "the agency’s interlocutor said.
    He added that the new frigates will also be equipped with the Poliment-Redut anti-aircraft missile system with an ammunition load of up to 100 missiles, anti-submarine and torpedo weapons. (...)



    In the meanwhile it would be worth to continue producing the "classic" 22350, maybe also in Yantar in Kaliningrad, that in the 80s built most of the 1155 Fregat (Udaloy class) destroyers and more recently the 11356 Grigorovich class frigates, and possibly also in Zvezda in the Far East, so that they get used to military shipbuilding before thinking about bigger ships (e.g destroyers, cruisers and aircraft carriers).
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:40 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:........
    In the meanwhile it would be worth to continue producing the "classic" 22350, maybe also in Yantar in Kaliningrad, that in the 80s built most of the 1155 Fregat (Udaloy class) destroyers and more recently the 11356 Grigorovich class frigates, and possibly also in Zvezda in the Far East, so that they get used to military shipbuilding before thinking about bigger ships (e.g destroyers, cruisers and aircraft carriers).


    Vanilla Gorshkov absolutely must remain in production

    Not only is it excellent ship that finally does the job that allows it to replace old Soviet frigates and destroyers but they finally managed to get production speed up to usable levels

    This is the ship that is to be backbone of the fleet according to new doctrine, old doctrine mandated corvettes to do that job but times have changed

    Missile ships and frigates are the new norm, corvettes are now niche segment


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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:........
    In the meanwhile it would be worth to continue producing the "classic" 22350, maybe also in Yantar in Kaliningrad, that in the 80s built most of the 1155 Fregat (Udaloy class) destroyers and more recently the 11356 Grigorovich class frigates, and possibly also in Zvezda in the Far East, so that they get used to military shipbuilding before thinking about bigger ships (e.g destroyers, cruisers and aircraft carriers).


    Vanilla Gorshkov absolutely must remain in production

    Not only is it excellent ship that finally does the job that allows it to replace old Soviet frigates and destroyers but they finally managed to get production speed up to usable levels

    This is the ship that is to be backbone of the fleet according to new doctrine, old doctrine mandated corvettes to do that job but times have changed

    Missile ships and frigates are the new norm, corvettes are now niche segment


    new Russian corvettes are quite capable ships, even if lacking in range and endurance, and are useful in brown and green water operations. As I said before I see a waste if Severnaya Verf continues to produce them, as they could use their resources to build additional frigates.

    Until now it was convenient for them to produce large corvettes 20380, since Saturn and Zvezda Motor had not yet mastered the production of gas turbines and reduction gears for the 22350, but now any new additional order for ship shorter than 110m should go to other shipyards, like Pella, as an example.

    Concerning the ammunition load up to 100 missiles for the poliment result system in 22350M it may mean 48 redut VLS cells (instead of 32 in 22350), that could be loaded normally with 32 cells containing long and medium range missiles, and the last 16 with 4 packed short rang e missiles, for a total of 32 +64=96missiles in the typical load (but this is just a speculation from me).

    I hope they carry also a couple of naval pantsir, it could be quite useful to have two independent short to medium range systems that use different radars and sensors (but that are integrated and may share target data it needed).
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:23 am

    Concerning the ammunition load up to 100 missiles for the poliment result system in 22350M it may mean 48 redut VLS cells (instead of 32 in 22350), that could be loaded normally with 32 cells containing long and medium range missiles, and the last 16 with 4 packed short rang e missiles, for a total of 32 +64=96missiles in the typical load (but this is just a speculation from me).

    I disagree. Gorshkov M is a destroyer of some 150-160m (the size of Arleigh burkes) so it may easily carry 96 cells (they come in 8 cells VLS so 100 is not possible) just like other modern destroyers.

    Gorshkov is only 130m and carries 48 cells.

    The only question is will those be a mix of redut and UKSK or just UKSK-M ? The later makes the ships much more powerful and useful and could 8 pack 9M100 and 4 pack 9M96 or carry 48N6 family that normal UKSK can't carry and is limited to only one 9m96.

    With 96 UKSK-M they can have max 384 9m96 or 96 cruise missiles. In reality it would be something like 24 cruise missile/anti ship missiles, 24 48N6, 48 4×9M96.

    9M100 is not needed if they have pantsirs.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:23 am

    If frigates will have 148 missiles then I wonder what how many a missile cruiser would carry.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:45 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:If frigates will have 148 missiles then I wonder what how many a missile cruiser would carry.
    well classic gorshkov has 48 VLS cells, divided into 16 UKSK and 32 Redut cells (or 56 cells (24 UKSK and 32 Redut starting from the 5th ship)

    They already announced that the larger 22350M ship will have 48 UKSK cells and I would expect also an increase in the number of Redut cells.

    I do not know if they will go for UKSK-M that can host antiship, land attack AND antiair too... In that case of course there will not be any Redut cell, so no crazy number of large missiles (but loading half of the cells normally dedicated to anti air quad packed 9M100 would easily bring the total number of missiles to 96+48 =144missiles, and this without counting the eventual Pantsir missiles)
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:37 am

    Well that is the thing isn't it... if the UKSK-M can carry SAMs as well then instead of having say 48 UKSK tubes and say 32 Redut tubes... that would be 6 UKSK launchers and perhaps two Redut launchers, it might have space for 10 UKSK-M launchers to replace both the UKSK and the Redut systems, but because all the tubes can take any missile combination it means the vessel will be much more flexible in the load it can carry... when reloading at port you could load the ship up with any combination of missiles you like... the ship might be used as an air defence vessel with a few tubes loaded for self defence from ships and subs and some land attack missiles just in case and the rest SAMs...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:34 am

    GarryB wrote:Well that is the thing isn't it... if the UKSK-M can carry SAMs as well then instead of having say 48 UKSK tubes and say 32 Redut tubes... that would be 6 UKSK launchers and perhaps two Redut launchers, it might have space for 10 UKSK-M launchers to replace both the UKSK and the Redut systems, but because all the tubes can take any missile combination it means the vessel will be much more flexible in the load it can carry... when reloading at port you could load the ship up with any combination of missiles you like... the ship might be used as an air defence vessel with a few tubes loaded for self defence from ships and subs and some land attack missiles just in case and the rest SAMs...

    That is true, but they already announced several times that it will have 48 UKSK cells and not more. That is the reason I believe it will have separate cells for antiair defense (Redut cells). Otherwise it will have less missiles than the 5th and 6th 22350, that will carry 56 VLS cells (24 UKSK and 32 Redut).

    The other big question is when and if the Redut cells will be able to host the long (200/250 Km) and extra long range s400 missiles (up to 400 km range) or a new long range missile derived from them. At the moment the poliment Redut system is limited to the 120 (or maybe 150km) range missile (9M96E2 /9M96M).

    And in case the missile would fit in the Redut cell, is the current radar adeguate for targeting aircraft at this range, or a new radar will be needed?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:33 pm

    Well that is the question... I personally think the only reason to make the UKSK-M able to carry SAMs is because the biggest SAMs they want to carry wont fit in the Redut launcher tubes... which are designed to carry the S-300 sized missiles (ie the big 250km and 400km ranged S-400 big missiles).

    I would suspect that the S-500 will be bigger than that like the larger S-300V missiles.

    The question therefore is... is the S-500 able to fit in the UKSK launch tube... I suspect not because otherwise why not just add extra UKSK launch bins to carry them as well... with the added bonus that if it is not expected to be WWIII and the intended opponents wont require S-500 missiles then you could carry extra land attack, anti sub, or anti ship missiles instead.

    The thing is that with the SAMs in question.... we have the tiny 9M100 missiles as used in the S-350 land based system where either standard 9M96 missiles as used on the Redut can be used one per tube or 9M100 missiles can be used with four per tube... there are 12 launch tubes in the system so either 12 9M96 missiles in any combination of 50km and 150km range missiles, or four missiles per tube for the 9M100 in any combination... so 12 tubes could carry anything from 12 x 50km range missiles, 12 x 150km range missiles or up to a maximum of 48 x 9M100 missiles or any combination.... 3 x 150km range missiles + 3 x 50km range missiles and 24 9M100 missiles etc etc.

    The thing is that the length of these new UKSK-M launch tubes is going to be at least 10m and possibly more for the S-500, so one launch tube has enormous volume in terms of width and depth so even if you assume that one UKSK-M tube that can hold a missile wider than the S-300 missiles, which means it should be able to hold 4 x 9M96 missiles and therefore also 16 9M100 missiles it is still a terrible waste of available space... and what value is there in carrying 4 of the 50km range 9M96 missiles in the tube when the 150km range missiles fit in the same tube.

    Surely it makes sense to stack them... these are all designed from the outset to be vertical launch missiles, so having a separator that ejects itself with the last missile in that layer to expose a second or even third layer would improve efficiency and make the smaller missiles more practical and useful.

    You might get only one S-500 missile in a single tube, but that is OK... how many satellites do you need to shoot down?
    S-400 250km range and 400km range full sized missiles might only fit one to a tube as well, which is also OK because they will mainly be carried by Cruisers and Destroyers and Carriers to defend groups of ships rather than just the ship they are on.
    The 9M96 however should allow four missiles per tube per layer and the bigger missile might allow two layers for 8 missiles per tube, while the shorter range missile might allow three layers per tube for 12 missiles per UKSK-M tube.
    The 9M100 should therefore allow 16 missiles per layer per tube, with perhaps four layers per tube meaning 64 missiles per tube... which would be valuable for dealing with swarm attacks as these are IIR lock on after launch weapons for CIWS self defence...

    These UKSK-M launchers might only be carried on Destroyer and Cruiser size and larger vessels, and I suspect because of the depth of deck needed for these launchers they might retain Redut launchers in shallower areas of the ship just to fill up some space and add capability.

    They might integrate TOR type missiles and Shtil type missiles into the UKSK-M launcher and they might have a Redut-M launcher that does too perhaps.

    For all we know the UKSK-M might add URAN and other weapons too... like Medvedev etc etc.
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    Post  kumbor on Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well that is the question... I personally think the only reason to make the UKSK-M able to carry SAMs is because the biggest SAMs they want to carry wont fit in the Redut launcher tubes... which are designed to carry the S-300 sized missiles (ie the big 250km and 400km ranged S-400 big missiles).

    I would suspect that the S-500 will be bigger than that like the larger S-300V missiles.

    The question therefore is... is the S-500 able to fit in the UKSK launch tube... I suspect not because otherwise why not just add extra UKSK launch bins to carry them as well... with the added bonus that if it is not expected to be WWIII and the intended opponents wont require S-500 missiles then you could carry extra land attack, anti sub, or anti ship missiles instead.

    The thing is that with the SAMs in question.... we have the tiny 9M100 missiles as used in the S-350 land based system where either standard 9M96 missiles as used on the Redut can be used one per tube or 9M100 missiles can be used with four per tube... there are 12 launch tubes in the system so either 12 9M96 missiles in any combination of 50km and 150km range missiles, or four missiles per tube for the 9M100 in any combination... so 12 tubes could carry anything from 12 x 50km range missiles, 12 x 150km range missiles or up to a maximum of 48 x 9M100 missiles or any combination.... 3 x 150km range missiles + 3 x 50km range missiles and 24 9M100 missiles etc etc.

    The thing is that the length of these new UKSK-M launch tubes is going to be at least 10m and possibly more for the S-500, so one launch tube has enormous volume in terms of width and depth so even if you assume that one UKSK-M tube that can hold a missile wider than the S-300 missiles, which means it should be able to hold 4 x 9M96 missiles and therefore also 16 9M100 missiles it is still a terrible waste of available space... and what value is there in carrying 4 of the 50km range 9M96 missiles in the tube when the 150km range missiles fit in the same tube.

    Surely it makes sense to stack them... these are all designed from the outset to be vertical launch missiles, so having a separator that ejects itself with the last missile in that layer to expose a second or even third layer would improve efficiency and make the smaller missiles more practical and useful.

    You might get only one S-500 missile in a single tube, but that is OK... how many satellites do you need to shoot down?
    S-400 250km range and 400km range full sized missiles might only fit one to a tube as well, which is also OK because they will mainly be carried by Cruisers and Destroyers and Carriers to defend groups of ships rather than just the ship they are on.
    The 9M96 however should allow four missiles per tube per layer and the bigger missile might allow two layers for 8 missiles per tube, while the shorter range missile might allow three layers per tube for 12 missiles per UKSK-M tube.
    The 9M100 should therefore allow 16 missiles per layer per tube, with perhaps four layers per tube meaning 64 missiles per tube... which would be valuable for dealing with swarm attacks as these are IIR lock on after launch weapons for CIWS self defence...

    These UKSK-M launchers might only be carried on Destroyer and Cruiser size and larger vessels, and I suspect because of the depth of deck needed for these launchers they might retain Redut launchers in shallower areas of the ship just to fill up some space and add capability.

    They might integrate TOR type missiles and Shtil type missiles into the UKSK-M launcher and they might have a Redut-M launcher that does too perhaps.

    For all we know the UKSK-M might add URAN and other weapons too... like Medvedev etc etc.

    Mean medvedka... I`m doubtful about that, for medvedka is a system for A/S torpedoes and not rocket/torpedoes as Vodopad etc... Medvedev Dmitry Anatolyevich is russian prime minister!
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:37 am

    Medvedevka are just small 91RE1 and 91RE2 ballistic rockets delivering an anti sub torpedo payload via a supersonic ballistic rocket... just much smaller and shorter ranged... for fitting to much smaller ships AFAIK.

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