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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:43 pm

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:31 am

    I always viewed the use of Palash/Palma CIWS on the 22350s as a bit of a placeholder, to be replaced when a more capable system (such as Pantsir-M) becomes available. I'd expect the 22350M would make this trade, and wouldn't be surprised if one or both of the Golovko and Isokov gets upgraded?

    While on the subject, anyone have any idea on the future of the navalised Tor-M2KM? AFAIK there aren't any prospective vessels that are slated to carry it as standard fit. Are we to assume that it is a mission-specific add-on to be fitted to "modular" vessels like Bykov?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:29 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:While on the subject, anyone have any idea on the future of the navalised Tor-M2KM?

    Why? Tor M2KM has a range of 15 km, while Pantsir M 20 km.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:31 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:I always viewed the use of Palash/Palma CIWS on the 22350s as a bit of a placeholder, to be replaced when a more capable system (such as Pantsir-M) becomes available.  I'd expect the 22350M would make this trade, and wouldn't be surprised if one or both of the Golovko and Isokov gets upgraded?

    While on the subject, anyone have any idea on the future of the navalised Tor-M2KM?  AFAIK there aren't any prospective vessels that are slated to carry it as standard fit.  Are we to assume that it is a mission-specific add-on to be fitted to "modular" vessels like Bykov?

    The last version is more than modular. You just need to put it on a flat deck and it can work alone. While pantsirs and other VLS are mounted on frigates, destroyer and corvettes, tor can just be mounted on auxilliaey vessels that are part of a task force.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:39 am

    Why? Tor M2KM has a range of 15 km, while Pantsir M 20 km.

    Tor is vertical launch and therefore the launcher is stealthy... plus does not need the launcher turned in the direction of the target before launch... and the missiles are single stage and much smaller and likely cheaper command guided missiles.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:58 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Why? Tor M2KM has a range of 15 km, while Pantsir M 20 km.

    Tor is vertical launch and therefore the launcher is stealthy... plus does not need the launcher turned in the direction of the target before launch... and the missiles are single stage and much smaller and likely cheaper command guided missiles.

    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:05 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Why? Tor M2KM has a range of 15 km, while Pantsir M 20 km.

    Tor is vertical launch and therefore the launcher is stealthy... plus does not need the launcher turned in the direction of the target before launch... and the missiles are single stage and much smaller and likely cheaper command guided missiles.

    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.

    Because Pantsir is a gun/missile CIWS that represents an evolutionary upgrade to the older Kashtan/Klintoks. Pantsir-M is is the marinised Pantsir gun, missiles and radars from land forces mounted onto a Kashtan launcher.

    Tor doesn't include a gun.

    Russian/Soviet capital ships use both as part of a layered defense. Tor for all-aspect coverage, Kashtan for specific arcs as point-defense.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:45 pm

    Apparently success with test launches https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3365386.html
    Googletranslate wrote:Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov” [project 22350], performing scheduled tasks of a combat training course in the Barents Sea, successfully conducted a series of practical shooting anti-aircraft missile system of the sea-based vertical launch "Polyment-Redut".

    The crew of the ship three times successfully hit air targets at various altitudes and distances with anti-aircraft missiles. Also noted accurate hit on a sea shield, simulating a small surface target.
    Could be just a confirmation of existing capabilities rather than success in stuff its failed at previously.
    Hopefully the latter though sunny
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:37 pm

    multiple altitudes is a dead give away.

    Short, medium and high altitude. 3 targets. Makes sense.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  LMFS on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:14 pm

    hoom wrote:Apparently success with test launches https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3365386.html
    Googletranslate wrote:Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov” [project 22350], performing scheduled tasks of a combat training course in the Barents Sea, successfully conducted a series of practical shooting anti-aircraft missile system of the sea-based vertical launch "Polyment-Redut".

    The crew of the ship three times successfully hit air targets at various altitudes and distances with anti-aircraft missiles. Also noted accurate hit on a sea shield, simulating a small surface target.
    Could be just a confirmation of existing capabilities rather than success in stuff its failed at previously.
    Hopefully the latter though sunny

    This is good news indeed thumbsup
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:14 am

    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.

    TOR... or the naval Klintok has traditionally not been fitted to small ships... it has generally been mounted on medium (Destroyer size... ie Udaloy) and really big ships like Kuznetsov and Kirov and Slava class carriers/cruisers as a point defence missile... normally in addition to Kashtan gun/missile systems.

    The missiles are relatively cheap but the guidance and tracking systems are sophisticated expensive 3D systems... the ground based TOR is expensive, but relatively cheap to use and new models use smaller longer ranged missiles that are much more accurate... ideal systems to co-locate with large SAMs for defence from ARMS and other munitions...

    The vertical launch also makes them rather more stealthy than external steerable mounts like Panstir or Kashtan or Palma.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:15 am

    Hence why it should be used instead imo.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:45 pm

    Gorshkov and Kazan have conducted exercises in the Arctic ahead od NATO large scale exercises in south Norway.

    GarryB wrote:
    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.

    TOR... or the naval Klintok has traditionally not been fitted to small ships... it has generally been mounted on medium (Destroyer size... ie Udaloy) and really big ships like Kuznetsov and Kirov and Slava class carriers/cruisers as a point defence missile... normally in addition to Kashtan gun/missile systems.

    The missiles are relatively cheap but the guidance and tracking systems are sophisticated expensive 3D systems... the ground based TOR is expensive, but relatively cheap to use and new models use smaller longer ranged missiles that are much more accurate... ideal systems to co-locate with large SAMs for defence from ARMS and other munitions...

    The vertical launch also makes them rather more stealthy than external steerable mounts like Panstir or Kashtan or Palma.

    This stealthiness makes Tor more suitable for modern missile corvettes than Pantsir. Small vessels' poor defensive capabilities require using as stealthy features as possible. Besides, those 3D systems are now developed and money already spent, so it makes sense to start mass production to bring cost per unit down. Except if I'm missing something and Pantsir's capabilities are more universal.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Hole on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:27 pm

    Tor in all its forms is produced in mass since the 80´s.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:30 am

    This stealthiness makes Tor more suitable for modern missile corvettes than Pantsir. Small vessels' poor defensive capabilities require using as stealthy features as possible. Besides, those 3D systems are now developed and money already spent, so it makes sense to start mass production to bring cost per unit down. Except if I'm missing something and Pantsir's capabilities are more universal.

    TOR is a very good system, but don't underestimate the Pantsir/Kashtan system... it is more flexible and offers rather better EO systems so it would be rather good against a variety of targets...

    Making a small boat slightly more stealthy might not be worth it.

    Also keep in mind that the radar and sensor tower for the TOR in naval form is not exactly stealthy even if the missiles are.

    Some of those small vessels are getting multiple AESA radar arrays mounted on their masts... I would suggest they are better equipped in terms of 3D radar coverage than any Soviet ship before them within 10K tons displacement...

    Considering equivalent western ships would have MANPADS and perhaps a 50 cal HMG mount, I would say Pantsir is pretty good.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Labrador on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:06 pm

    Cool

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom on Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:09 am

    Kasatonov expected to start seatrials 2nd half of Nov
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C50/

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  kumbor on Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:36 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Gorshkov and Kazan have conducted exercises in the Arctic ahead od NATO large scale exercises in south Norway.

    GarryB wrote:
    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.

    TOR... or the naval Klintok has traditionally not been fitted to small ships... it has generally been mounted on medium (Destroyer size... ie Udaloy) and really big ships like Kuznetsov and Kirov and Slava class carriers/cruisers as a point defence missile... normally in addition to Kashtan gun/missile systems.

    The missiles are relatively cheap but the guidance and tracking systems are sophisticated expensive 3D systems... the ground based TOR is expensive, but relatively cheap to use and new models use smaller longer ranged missiles that are much more accurate... ideal systems to co-locate with large SAMs for defence from ARMS and other munitions...

    The vertical launch also makes them rather more stealthy than external steerable mounts like Panstir or Kashtan or Palma.

    This stealthiness makes Tor more suitable for modern missile corvettes than Pantsir. Small vessels' poor defensive capabilities require using as stealthy features as possible. Besides, those 3D systems are now developed and money already spent, so it makes sense to start mass production to bring cost per unit down. Except if I'm missing something and Pantsir's capabilities are more universal.

    Shipboard Klinok/Kinzhal is much heavier and bulkier than pantsir-M. Pantsir can be some 20 tons fully equipped, Klinok is more than 50 tons, so it can fit only in corvette/frigate sized ship. Tor-M is a vehicle based module put aboard, so, although lighter it must be specially modernised for shipboard use, and it packs less missiles.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:39 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:Gorshkov and Kazan have conducted exercises in the Arctic ahead od NATO large scale exercises in south Norway.

    GarryB wrote:
    So why not put Tor instead of Pantsir also on Karakurts and other ships? There shouldn't be that much difference in price and size.

    TOR... or the naval Klintok has traditionally not been fitted to small ships... it has generally been mounted on medium (Destroyer size... ie Udaloy) and really big ships like Kuznetsov and Kirov and Slava class carriers/cruisers as a point defence missile... normally in addition to Kashtan gun/missile systems.

    The missiles are relatively cheap but the guidance and tracking systems are sophisticated expensive 3D systems... the ground based TOR is expensive, but relatively cheap to use and new models use smaller longer ranged missiles that are much more accurate... ideal systems to co-locate with large SAMs for defence from ARMS and other munitions...

    The vertical launch also makes them rather more stealthy than external steerable mounts like Panstir or Kashtan or Palma.

    This stealthiness makes Tor more suitable for modern missile corvettes than Pantsir. Small vessels' poor defensive capabilities require using as stealthy features as possible. Besides, those 3D systems are now developed and money already spent, so it makes sense to start mass production to bring cost per unit down. Except if I'm missing something and Pantsir's capabilities are more universal.

    Shipboard Klinok/Kinzhal is much heavier and bulkier than pantsir-M. Pantsir can be some 20 tons fully equipped, Klinok is more than 50 tons, so it can fit only in corvette/frigate sized ship. Tor-M is a vehicle based module put aboard, so, although lighter it must be specially modernised for shipboard use, and it packs less missiles.

    So Pantsir M is lighter with longer range and Tor is more stealthy.

    Perhaps we should see a fusion of very short and short range AAD systems that could offer all 3 advantages in one. This could enable a general shift in Russian armed forces from 4 layer to 3 layer AAD, consisting of Pantsir/Tor merge, Buk and S300/S500.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:59 pm

    Actually I don't expect that to actually happen... air defence layers are good... the more the better.

    Otherwise you would say S-500 is perfect and they don't need anything else because it should be able to stop everything from ICBM MIRVs down to cruise missiles and ARMs... except the S-500 will be big and expensive and not likely carried in large enough numbers to be used against everything a ship in combat will come up against in terms of numbers.

    It is important to note the Russian Army also uses both TOR and Tunguska... they have a missile regiment for air defence which used to be equipped with OSA, that is in the slow process of being replaced by the far more capable TOR, while in the gun/missile regiment they used to have Shilka and first SA-9 and then the more capable SA-13, but now they have Tunguska, which will no doubt be replaced with something based on the upgraded Pantsir on a tracked chassis for mobility with tracked forces...

    They are also introducing Pine... or SOSNA-R to pretty much replace the SA-13s in airborne use, but I also suspect in some areas of lower readiness they will also use them there to replace both ZU-23-2 and SA-13.

    (BTW Pine is quite an interesting system... relatively small two stage missiles with high velocity acceleration and low drag second stage missiles with a range of 10km and laser beam riding guidance that is pretty difficult to jam or interfere with... so also rather cheap missiles with all the high tech EO in the launcher so it can be reused over and over again...)

    They have mentioned two new versions of Pantsir for naval use, and I suspect one is for upgrades of old vessels and one is for new vessels... the latter being more stealthy I guess, though both would be more stealthy than the original.

    This could enable a general shift in Russian armed forces from 4 layer to 3 layer AAD, consisting of Pantsir/Tor merge, Buk and S300/S500.

    Actually things are only getting worse... Palma adds Sosna, or Pine, plus a new short range IIR guided missile called 9M100 or Morfei is being developed for the air force(air and space defence force), army and navy, and of course there is the Verba MANPAD...

    So in terms of layers for the navy there will be Verba on deck mounts as well as hand held, Sosna-R on Palma mounts, Pantsir, Klintok (TOR), BUK, S-350, S-400, and S-500... so 8 layers, not including aircraft.

    For the Army, that would be Verba, Morfei, Pine, TOR, Tunguska, BUK, S-300V4, and S-500, so 8 layers not including aircraft.

    Aerospace forces would be Verba, Morfei(though this might be a short range AAM only in this force... but with ground launched models for the other services I will include it here), Pantsir, S-350, S-400, S-500, which is only 6 layers plus of course aircraft layers in greater numbers... you could probably add Nudol and other heavy ABM missiles in this category too however, and if the Pine system is as cheap as it seems they might use it as well... it looks like a rather good cheap low emission system that should also be rather effective.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm

    It sounds complicated and expensive and extravagant... there are probably fewer system types in NATO, but it is like small arms... you could replace pistols and SMGs and rifles and even light machine guns with assault rifles, but sometimes it is better to have the right tool for the job...
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:36 pm

    Point taken, however, I hope they can achieve high modularity and find some common ground between all those weapon systems at least. Otherways it will be hard to produce and operate them effectively. One of the reasons why US can put 50 % of their commissioned ships at sea at any time and Russia 15 %, is that every Russian ship is so highly specialised and thus unique. This means that production, trials, maintainance, modernization is costly and takes time. All those fantastic weapon systems will be of little use if ship spends half of its duty in dock.

    If there are no difference in combat capabilities between Tor and Pantsir, I think that they should work out those minor differences in stealth, range and weight.

    Americans seem to have also acknowledged the advantage of having several destroyer and frigate classes in service at the same time. But still it's only two classes each. Extremes are never good.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  LMFS on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:20 pm

    Supposedly this should be 22350M?


    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/army-2018-korabli-foto-1/
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:Supposedly this should be 22350M?


    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/army-2018-korabli-foto-1/

    Number of VLS looks weired. With the pantsirs on the front crew can't walk to the front. The vls on the back looks like old ones for s-300.

    It seems to be commercial design with many weapons that will have nothing to do with the real one.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:20 am

    Gun looks rather small for the size of the ship too...

    If there are no difference in combat capabilities between Tor and Pantsir, I think that they should work out those minor differences in stealth, range and weight.

    Both use command guided missiles, but TOR is mostly focussed on anti munition use... ie shooting down incoming enemy threats... Hellfire missiles and the Apache helicopters that are launching them for example. It normally operates with armoured vehicles but when on a ship or located with a large SAM system its purpose is to defeat incoming HARMs, which would make it useful to have with an S-300V4 battery and also on board a ship.

    Pantsir is also able to engage incoming missiles and weapons of all types, but also includes guns to deal with surface targets out to about 5km, and of course in the latest models the range is rather astounding... 40-50km.

    Personally I would say if you can carry both then do so... the 3D search radar and AESA tracking radar system of the TOR could be replaced with the ships own organic AESA arrays, so the system could be fully integrated into the ships infrastructure...

    Of course the EO systems and AESA radar could also be used with Pantsir, but I would keep the Pantsirs organic sensors as a useful addition to the systems already fitted to the ship.

    The TOR missile is relatively short and very compact so you could put bin launchers all over the ship... unlike Redut and UKSK launchers which are 8-12 metres deep and need to be positioned near the centre of the vessel where the deck space is deepest.

    In fact you could fit an extra deck level at the middle section of the ship and fill it with TOR launchers...

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