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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon May 13, 2019 9:42 am

    kvs wrote:Too bad the f*cktards running NATO don't understand this.

    I think they actually DO understand it, but they don't know how to leverage improved relations into gains in personal wealth and privledge, so they cling to what they know and peddle in hate and fear to maintain the status quo and protect what they see as their livelihoods.

    Of course you also have the NATOista fktards who are blind with hate and look askew at anyone who puts Russian dressing on their salad... Laughing
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    Post  Isos on Mon May 13, 2019 10:30 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Simple fact that Russia could nuke China and China would lose much more people than Russia in such a move, gives indication that China will only pick on the smaller weaker countries much like US.

    Only difference is, China is moving into smaller and weaker countries with handfull of money for development and doesn't come with a gun like US does.

    With China spending billions on ABM research it is only a matter of time before they can nullify ICBMs.  The only force that will matter will be conventional and as such we are heavily outnumbered.  China doesn't invade smaller countries because it will trigger the US to respond.  They couldn't care less if China invades Russia, they would cheer them on.

    US would definitly care. With Siberia, China would be ten times stronger. Something they don't want at all.

    ICBM are no longer the objectif for nuclear powers. Hypersonic cruise missiles and gliders are. Moreover tactical nuks like 152mm launched ones are a nice way to destroy invading Chinese.

    I watched a documentary about military invasion. They compared old Hitler's invasion of USSR and US invasion of Iraq. In both cases, they had difficulties after the first 300km because supply lines are getting too long to sustain big formations. With russian nuking their home bases and armatas decimating their vehicles, Chinese won't go that far. EU will support Russia just like all Asia.

    Doing the same to chinese as to Napoleon will work too. Let them come closer and closer and just destroy supplies. They will start eating themselves.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 13, 2019 12:49 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Simple fact that Russia could nuke China and China would lose much more people than Russia in such a move, gives indication that China will only pick on the smaller weaker countries much like US.

    Only difference is, China is moving into smaller and weaker countries with handfull of money for development and doesn't come with a gun like US does.

    With China spending billions on ABM research it is only a matter of time before they can nullify ICBMs.  The only force that will matter will be conventional and as such we are heavily outnumbered.  China doesn't invade smaller countries because it will trigger the US to respond.  They couldn't care less if China invades Russia, they would cheer them on.

    LOL ok, now you are just being ridiculous.

    First off, no ABM system is 100%. Second, what already exists out there can barely shoot down an old Scud A. Being able to shoot down a Topol-M which doesn't fly at a standard ballistic trajectory is something not done and won't be for years. No matter much "$Billions" they are spending. And by the time they do, Avangard and replacement for yars will exist.

    And if only a couple of nukes goes off in Beijing or Shanghai, a huge portion of China's capabilities and a huge portion of it's population goes with it.

    It's funny whenever someone with zero knowledge talks about missile defense and how they are effective. My father gets a damn good laugh at such thoughts since he worked on such projects. As he said, it works well for ignorant folks. Well, we know who those are Laughing
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 13, 2019 12:54 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:...

    With China spending billions on ABM research it is only a matter of time before they can nullify ICBMs.  The only force that will matter will be conventional and as such we are heavily outnumbered.  China doesn't invade smaller countries because it will trigger the US to respond.  They couldn't care less if China invades Russia, they would cheer them on.

    I am getting nsome mixed messages here, are Chinese:

    A) Subhuman primitives who are dying in the streets and can't even build an engine

    or

    B) Technological superpower that will soon be capable of shooting nuclear missiles out of the sky with 100% accuracy


    Because if latter is the case I wouldn't want to get on their bad side, no sir...

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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 12:58 pm

    People forget that if China starts invading countries all of a sudden the current world economy will totally change and their booming economy stops... why would they risk that happening?

    To invade Russia for what?

    Do they think they could seize parts of Russia and Russia would be OK with that?

    That is the westerners thinking everyone else thinks the same way they do... like the fucking idiotic claims that the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan because they wanted warm water ports for fucks sake... if that was true then why didn't they invade Pakistan... who was not only supporting their opponents in Afghanistan (a little game they play with every country that invades Afghanistan) but are an enemy of their allies India... every reason to continue on through and get those ports they wanted but they didn't even consider it because they were aware that US CIA groups that were kicked out of Iran in 1979 were moving into Afghanistan, and having Iran as a western puppet regime was bad enough, they would not tolerate the west doing that to Afghanistan, who was a Soviet ally at the time.

    The ideas of China invading Siberia for resources might be based on the history of Japan who tried to go that way and got their asses handed to them by the Soviets and instead turned south for oil and resources just before WWII started in the Pacific.

    Of course in this US centric scenario I am sure they see themselves as the peace keepers and will rush in to Siberia to police the situation... maybe put in a few oil wells and dig some minerals etc etc while they are there.

    But as usual they are just dreaming... China is relatively wealthy and they can buy resources from Siberia and not destroy their economy in the process... when you read about India fighting China or China fighting Russia, it is an American wish list... BRICS is their greatest fear and they have undermined the democratic process in Brazil to damage that... lets see how permanent that damage is... of course there are plenty of countries interested in joining anyway... Brazil can rejoin later when it has shaken off the strings of America...

    US would definitly care. With Siberia, China would be ten times stronger. Something they don't want at all.

    The US would be encouraging each side to destroy the other and do all sorts of things to facilitate it.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 13, 2019 1:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:The ideas of China invading Siberia for resources...


    This "idea" is just an urban legend/comfort story Europeans and various Euro-liberal fanboys like to tell themselves and to Russians hoping that they will somehow be able to redirect attention from what they are trying to do to Russians, not directly of course but through Americans as proxies.

    Also they would love nothing more than having another batch of willing morons like Chinese doin their work for them because safety and well-being of precious European darlings must not be placed under any risk, absolute unacceptable. So precious they are...

    Problem is that it's not happening. Chinese are facing demographic collapse and are already having problems keeping their population from migrating from interior and into the Pacific coastline.

    And there is always desire not to get exterminated in war.

    30 years from now they will have problems with even properly staffing the military which will coincide with Islamic takeover of Europe so neither will be an issue for Russia (not that chincoms ever were...)

    Let's just hope that our resident "Frenchman's" cousins pick up the pace and hit those rafts harder and in larger numbers that so far, 30 years is good but 20 is even better thumbsup


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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 13, 2019 3:11 pm

    Arrow wrote:Chinese ABM is less advanced than Russian. Russian ICBM and SLBM and new wepons like Poseidon, Burevestnik, Cirkon weapons are the most advanced in the world.

    Once China can nullify our ICBMs it doesn't really matter what the ABM disparity is. It is only a matter of time and selling them S-400 was stupid.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 13, 2019 3:13 pm

    No one, I repeat, no one can nullify anyone's ICBM's. Period.

    ABM systems been in development since 50's. Missiles change and so do the ways to counter them but never nullified anything.
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Mon May 13, 2019 4:30 pm

    All of this is irrelevant as 22350 will do jack shit if China or USA want to fight Russia. Any provocations on land by either one would be crushed. Russian battle performance at debaltsevo and ilovaisk spoke for itself, the Russians beat the Ukrainians ass, with US guys in with them. Many contractors died in Ilovaisk and Debaltseve. Who has performed these kind of battles in recent memory? USA? China? They are infants at this warfare, USA was crushed in Fallujah, and China has 0 experience with this warfare. Russians are fucking beasts, the number of recent battles fought is ridiculous, they are real continental ground power.

    Debalseve
    Ilovaisk
    Palmyra
    Grozny
    Sevastopol Molniya(Lightning)
    Tshkinvali
    Gori Ridge
    Al Rukban Hills
    T4 Airbase
    Deir Ez Zour
    Latakia

    Fucking ground beasts, Там, где мы, там — победа! These guys work the grinders and beat you with sheer force. In brest battle these crazy fuckers wrote on the wall "we are dying but we never surrender", Alexander Prokhorov, Roman filipov. Where do you see this kind of fighting spirit in the world? You talk about espirit de corps, I give you the Russians. The portuguese pilot bailed and surrendered. That ain't no Stalingrad Iron Shock Army badass mofo.

    These ground dogs of war wear you down in grinders, sucking your life away in hellish nightmare fighting, day in and day out. Thermobarics, heavy arty, jamming, armored strikes. Its a nasty enemy to fight, and you can get sucked into basically a fight that will end your nationhood if you let yourself get sucked in deep with them.

    They strike fear into anyone facing them. This behemoth spans 14,000km. You think 22350 will make a difference when they beat your ass on the yard?

    These guys almost fight as if they did not have fear. Debaltseve and Ilovaisk were the real deal, not many would know what to do in that situation. US would want to end it by air. Russia handled it in the dirt like men. With AD, they force you to fight their fight. On the ground, its punishing and unfair. Побеждает сильнейший

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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Chinese ABM is less advanced than Russian. Russian ICBM and SLBM and new wepons like Poseidon, Burevestnik, Cirkon weapons are the most advanced in the world.

    Once China can nullify our ICBMs it doesn't really matter what the ABM disparity is. It is only a matter of time and selling them S-400 was stupid.


    Americans couldn't accomplish it in over half a century and still can't but Chinese will magically do it and with 100% accuracy as well?

    Check the map, they are all jammed on the coastline, their civil infrastructure is completely interdependent and beyond fragile, 0.5% of incoming warheads passing through is enough to annihilate them all.

    It's 5% with Americans​ and even for them it's unacceptable risk.

    S-400 is joke in this equation.


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    Post  Tingsay on Mon May 13, 2019 5:18 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Once China can nullify our ICBMs it doesn't really matter what the ABM disparity is.  It is only a matter of time and selling them S-400 was stupid.    

    The idea behind America's ABM shield is that instead of losing 100 of it's largest cities they only lose 90.
    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    China's abm shield is a non factor
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    Post  walle83 on Tue May 14, 2019 12:50 am

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:All of this is irrelevant as 22350 will do jack shit if China or USA want to fight Russia. Any provocations on land by either one would be crushed. Russian battle performance at debaltsevo and ilovaisk spoke for itself, the Russians beat the Ukrainians ass, with US guys in with them. Many contractors died in Ilovaisk and Debaltseve. Who has performed these kind of battles in recent memory? USA? China? They are infants at this warfare, USA was crushed in Fallujah, and China has 0 experience with this warfare. Russians are fucking beasts, the number of recent battles fought is ridiculous, they are real continental ground power.

    You are seriosly comparing fighting the entire US armed forces with some local fighting in Ukraine?
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 14, 2019 1:51 am

    walle83 wrote:
    MiamiMachineShop wrote:All of this is irrelevant as 22350 will do jack shit if China or USA want to fight Russia. Any provocations on land by either one would be crushed. Russian battle performance at debaltsevo and ilovaisk spoke for itself, the Russians beat the Ukrainians ass, with US guys in with them. Many contractors died in Ilovaisk and Debaltseve. Who has performed these kind of battles in recent memory? USA? China? They are infants at this warfare, USA was crushed in Fallujah, and China has 0 experience with this warfare. Russians are fucking beasts, the number of recent battles fought is ridiculous, they are real continental ground power.

    You are seriosly comparing fighting the entire US armed forces with some local fighting in Ukraine?

    Ukrainians fought with American assistance, equipment, weapons, radios, counter battery radars, javelin, and advisors and special forces. What would be the difference? They would still be subjected to the same limitations as UAF.

    What invisible murikan planes will fly just fine? I think Syria exposed this misconstrued fallacy for what it really is, oversimplification which cost the USA its operation in Syria.  

    2000 dudes and 12 planes beat the American invisible Avengers army. 22350, SU57, armata, made 0 difference in the outcome. SU-24, T64/T72, Kub, S-200, S-125, and pantsirs and tors basically held NATO off in 2018, and today what do we see?

    American incompetence and operational ineptitude. I say it how it is, as an American, to be bested this way shows me the other arguments are bogus. Equipment does not mean anything, what matters are two things Putin said on Victory Day which are very true. You need courage, real courage like Vietnamese, Russians, Koreans, Iranians, and you need intelligent military planners. Guys like Valeriy Asapov are a dime a dozen in the US military. But in the Russian military it seems they crank guys like that out daily.

    What it means is that the most important asset is the individual himself. His fighting spirit, mentality, and his dedication to the cause. 10 carriers, and all the kings knights and all the kings men will not change this cold hard fact. The west is swallowing that bitter pill, and its sliding into cognitive dissonance and outright denial.

    Scary if you want to fight a real war, to be in denial. As I said before, the nationhood is at stake.

    If soviet era sams bested modern NATO airforces, than equivocally we could say the soviet fleet would best the modern NATO Navies. If they have the same planners, strategists and tacticians then no amount of carriers will save us. 22350 makes less a difference than the commander of the Northern Fleet.

    If we have the same stupid planners, we will lose no matter the ship, plane, or tank involved, Stupid is stupid is stupid, and you cannot fix stupid.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue May 14, 2019 7:33 am

    miketheterrible wrote:No one, I repeat, no one can nullify anyone's ICBM's. Period.

    ABM systems been in development since 50's. Missiles change and so do the ways to counter them but never nullified anything.

    That is wishful thinking. The days of ICBMs being an effective deterrent are quickly coming to an end. Like everything, technology becomes obsolete and so will ballistic missiles. It isn't a matter of if but a matter of when.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 14, 2019 8:32 am

    Once China can nullify our ICBMs it doesn't really matter what the ABM disparity is. It is only a matter of time and selling them S-400 was stupid.

    Yeah, in Russias list of problems that wouldn't even be in the top 1,000.

    The S-400 they bought would not be the same as the S-400 that Russia uses, but it will likely shoot down a few Japanese and USN F-35s... so it is well worth helping to cover that direction from US attack.

    China will remain vulnerable to ICBM attack, just like Russia and the US and the EU... once they find a way of defeating, then those methods of defeating become a target first, or some way of bypassing them will be developed... the idea that any side could get a superiority to allow them victory without enormous losses and complete destruction of everyones economy is a little naive... Even if the US replaced the moon with their own death star... how could they use it to kill everyone but them?

    American incompetence and operational ineptitude. I say it how it is, as an American, to be bested this way shows me the other arguments are bogus. Equipment does not mean anything,

    The biggest failing of America is that it is trying to fight Russia and China when they don't want to fight. US sanctions have cut ties with Russia and you are pushing China to look for alternatives too... if you had just ignored all the shit that you keep bleating about... like Crimea and Syria and Georgia and other crap that really didn't mean anything to the west, then Russia could be cooperating in lots of areas with the west and making the west stronger and more cohesive... if the Russians were friends the solutions to problems like Iran and North Korea and Syria might have been solved by now... not completely in a way the west wants, but in a way that both sides can live with so perhaps some compromises in areas the US and the west probably don't give a shit about anyway.

    But instead Russia and China are the enemy and you have made them separate and stronger than they could ever been if you had just treated them with respect like normal countries, which is what they are, but US international relations are not normal... look at how you treat the EU and your other allies.

    Ahhh well... a missed opportunity for the west because China and Russia have some ways of doing things that the west could certainly learn from, and vice versa, but for the last few decades the west is set to transmit and not receive... Russia and China are going to grow and get stronger no matter what you do, but what you have done means they wont feel any need to show you any respect or gratitude for your part in their struggle from near collapse in the 1990s to today...

    If soviet era sams bested modern NATO airforces, than equivocally we could say the soviet fleet would best the modern NATO Navies. If they have the same planners, strategists and tacticians then no amount of carriers will save us. 22350 makes less a difference than the commander of the Northern Fleet.

    The Soviets had good weapons and good planners and strategists and tacticians, and Russia... post 1990s seems to have the same and certainly a rational leader in Putin, but as the Germans found during WWII having a powerful army that can trash anyone elses with brand new tactics is not enough. Their army was good enough even if it started with inferior material like the early Panzers, their layout saved them from the fate of the T-26... but over the period of the war their enemies learned to match and then be superior to them. Their airforce started out as king and some of their pilots racked up enormous kill scores, but with no strategic bombing capacity then the production beyond the Urals was safe and their navy was not sufficiently powerful to cut europe off from the US... or the UK from the US...

    Right now Russia is not threat to the US in terms of navy except SSBNs. The US has the potential to threaten Russia with its carrier groups, but developments in terms of Kinzhal and Zircon and Kh-32 potentially rather costly.

    But you are not thinking straight... a navy isn't a war winning or fighting weapon in this situation... Americas navy means it can move forces and apply force anywhere in the world relatively quickly and maintain a serious presence there for as long as they want... Russias navy can't do that to anything like the same extent. A couple of carriers will allow that but they will never give them the capacity to fight the US let alone NATO on equal terms at sea.

    Very simply it will enable them to force their will in places like Venezuela because the US wont start WWIII over Venezuela no matter how attractive all that oil seems to be.

    Of course if Russia starts trying to throw its weight around all over the place then the US might push back, so they need to pick and choose...
    That is wishful thinking. The days of ICBMs being an effective deterrent are quickly coming to an end. Like everything, technology becomes obsolete and so will ballistic missiles. It isn't a matter of if but a matter of when.

    For every measure there is a countermeasure. ATGMs don't make tanks or armour useless but you need the correct tactics to make them effective.

    The AH-64 Apache is a potent platform but if you just fly into enemy airspace without caring what defences are around you are going to lose aircraft... especially when it seems that even small arms fire can penetrate their cockpit canopies...
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    Post  Gazputin on Wed May 15, 2019 9:19 am

    these are coastal ships ....
    the Russian navy strategic ships for at least 20yrs are nuke-subs ..... namely SSGNs
    end of story .... forget "nuke destroyers" and nuke "aircraft carriers" ... and all the other crap you guys go on with ....

    I'm so tired of saying this .... you guys are living in the wrong century .... a bunch of frustrated Napoleons and Hitlers ....

    what does Russia care about "sea lanes" .... except grain from the Black Sea for wheat exports
    they are almost 90% self sufficient ....
    and they have a base at Tartus .... in Syria

    for you dumb-arses .... they are turning the Arctic port of Sabetta ... into a multi-cargo port ....
    yes you morons .... the rail line to Sabetta is mega-strategic ......

    yep the railway to Sabetta is the big one .....
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    Post  jhelb on Wed May 15, 2019 10:45 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:That is wishful thinking.  The days of ICBMs being an effective deterrent are quickly coming to an end.  Like everything, technology becomes obsolete and so will ballistic missiles.  It isn't a matter of if but a matter of when.    

    Can the PLA start a full scale war with Russia and win ? When was the last time they fought a full scale war ?

    What if China invades Russia and Vietnam, India taking advantage of the situation goes inside China & occupies territory that they claim to be their own ?

    What if Russia, starts to support secessionist movements inside China in places like Tibet and Xinjiang ?

    China's threshold for taking in casualties is probably the highest in the world. And despite this, they have never invaded Russia. Invading Russia is not all that simple. Chinese can't afford to.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 15, 2019 2:27 pm

    Off Topic much. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 15, 2019 2:41 pm

    these are coastal ships ....

    Not really... technology and capability wise these are small Destroyers despite their frigate designation.

    I would agree if they were actually Frigates like the old Krivak class that these ships together with Corvettes would be coastal green water vessels, but in terms of fire power their new Corvettes are actually as powerful as their cold war era Destroyers... in terms of guns and missiles in many ways they are rather better, it is only the endurance of a larger ship that the new ships lack that make them coastal.

    The frigates on the other hand are bigger and the new ones will be 7K tons so they will actually have better armament than the Kirov cruisers of the Cold war, so this class of so called Frigates are Frigates with twice the fire power of cold war Destroyers and the second generation upgrades will be as powerfully equipped as the cold war cruisers... Slavas and Kirovs.

    The first few Gorshkovs will be useful for green water operations supported by corvettes, but the 7K ton Gorshkovs plus the new 20K ton ships will be Blue Water navy ships that will be able to operate anywhere in the world... the 20K ton destroyers will be super battle cruisers that are not as big as the old Kirovs but will be much much better armed... an aircraft carrier will extend its vision and reach enormously and make them rather formidable in attack and defence... a CVN with AWACS support and 50-60 5th gen fighters like a naval Su-57 or equivalent will make them the most powerful forces at sea even if they don't match the west in numbers, the quality will make them fierce. Anything approaching them will need to be very tough because they will have all sorts of hypersonic attack and defence missiles and weapons...

    what does Russia care about "sea lanes" .... except grain from the Black Sea for wheat exports

    The US and the EU doesn't want to trade with them in anything like a fair and free way, so they need to be able to reach markets beyond their land borders and they can do that by sea. Export prospects for nonGMO food will only increase, but the US Navy might want to stifle exports to boost their own export potential...

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    Post  Gazputin on Mon May 20, 2019 9:19 am

    the interesting thing I was reading a while ago was that the Krylov? design guys said they had perfected a new hull design that provided larger displacement and less drag …. resulting in no need to increase the engine sizes ….

    now we see bigger displacement Gorshkovs and 20386 and Ivan Gren Mk2s
    coming out with presumably the same power level drive systems …. but all quite a bit bigger displacements

    that tells me they are not comfortable green water ships for extended patrols ..
    otherwise why would they make them bigger ?
    they are already heavily armed for their size …. it has to be about crew comfort























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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2019 5:25 am

    There is no advantage to using green water ships for blue water missions... it is a question of endurance... having to spend ten times more on support ships and having dozens of them following them around the planet does not save any money at all, in fact it not only makes it much more expensive, it also gives any potential enemy a lot more easy targets to deal with.

    In comparison a decent ship of 7K ton weight or the new 20K ton destroyers they are talking about would be vastly more independent and much better able to defend themselves and other vessels... if you send a dozen small ships with three dozen support ships, it does not matter if your dozen heavily armed ships survive... if the enemy takes out your support ships you have to go home as fast as you can...

    In comparison 8-10 large ships can defend themselves and strike back at the attacker and get their job done and not have to rush home after every engagement depletes their weapon stores.
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    Gazputin

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    Post  Gazputin on Tue May 21, 2019 7:59 am

    I've always said …. nuke SSGNs are the real capital ships ….

    the rest, a big fleet of small surface ships with v.long range weapons ….
    are quite logically …. an "internet" of small widely distributed launch platforms …

    I agree with Russia's strategy …. what you think ? whatever ….
    fly over there and tell them they are idiots and see how you go …. good luck
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2019 2:56 pm

    Their current new build vessels are Corvettes and Frigates, but their future plans include a CVN design, a helicopter landing ship design and a 7 thousand ton upgraded frigate design and a nuclear powered 20 thousand ton destroyer design.

    SSGNs were originally intended to push US carrier groups away from Russian soil so they could not launch air strikes against Russian land based targets... their job was to sink ships.

    The current ones however can now carry a variety of weapons including land attack and soon hypersonic anti ship or land attack which makes them vastly more flexible, but in war time their primary mission will be to defeat US/NATO carrier groups.

    Using one Oscar class loaded with 72 Calibre land attack missiles means just one sub could attack all the targets all those corvettes were used to attack, and still with enough missiles to remain on station and wait for more orders to attack new targets if they appeared... unlike the corvettes who had to withdraw and reload.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue May 21, 2019 3:14 pm

    Using one Oscar class loaded with 72 Calibre land attack missiles means just one sub could attack all the targets all those corvettes were used to attack, and still with enough missiles to remain on station and wait for more orders to attack new targets if they appeared... unlike the corvettes who had to withdraw and reload.

    If they upgrade them to launch kalibrs from torpedo tubes, the theorical max number would be 100 kalibr missiles as they can carry 28 torpedos.
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    Gazputin

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    Post  Gazputin on Thu May 23, 2019 5:27 am

    I think the Russian plan is to have an "internet" of smaller Kalibr launchers …. widely distributed and therefore impossible to take out
    they've already shown they can lob them from the Caspian …. all centrally controlled … and the subs

    they spoke recently (assuming the translator worked properly) about having patrol ships with variable systems that could protect Russian trade routes
    it mentioned the Bykov and the 20386 type ships …. so they seem to have made up their minds on these ….





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