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    MiamiMachineShop
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Thu May 09, 2019 3:29 pm

    12 is a good number, there were 17 Sovremmenys in service, 12 22350M with 6 22350 is 18 ships, so Sov will be replaced fully. 22350/M will perform same blue water tasks. Excellent news. This means 20380 is necessary and fulfills adequate role that is needed. Building more 22350 did not mean they would have to cancel 20380 as many here continually suggested.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:12 is a good number, there were 17 Sovremmenys in service, 12 22350M with 6 22350 is 18 ships, so Sov will be replaced fully. 22350/M will perform same blue water tasks. Excellent news. This means 20380 is necessary and fulfills adequate role that is needed. Building more 22350 did not mean they would have to cancel 20380 as many here continually suggested.

    Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

    Of course all those ships  do not.need to by replaced 1 vs 1, but 20380s cannot replace the udaloys...

    Edit:

    I.did not say that they.need to cancel 22380 to produce 22350s, but that if they are building both of.them at the same shipyard, building more large corvettes would delay the frigates produced by severnaya verf.


    It would be different if 22380 would be produced by other shipyards, of course, and if pella could produce them it would be ideal. They are however probably too big for.the smaller shipyards like Pella and more (feodosia).
    The other larger shipyards in west of the country that produce warships (yantar and zaliv) are already working at full capacity.
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 3:57 pm

    According to the source, "a project plan for a vessel with a displacement of 7,000 tons and a capability of carrying up to 48 Kalibr, Oniks and Tsirkon cruise missiles will be finalized by the yearend."
    Well jebus the Russian language version of that goes further

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6415468
    According to him, “by the end of 2019, a technical design for a ship with a displacement of 7 thousand tons, capable of carrying up to 48 Kalibr, Onyx and Zircon missiles.” which will be handed over to the customer as part of the already new state armament program, "said the agency’s source.

    He added that the new frigates will also be equipped with the Poliment-Redut anti-aircraft missile system with ammunition up to 100 missiles, anti-submarine and torpedo weapons.
    Plain reading thats 48* UKSK + 96* Redut?! pale

    Assuming its not really 144* VLS maybe more realistically 48 + 64 or 48 + 48 (+ Pantsir-M)?
    Either of those is still pretty extreme for 7Kton.

    Though also its an unnamed source so could be pure bollocks dunno

    I still like the idea of 48* UKSK-M with quad-pack 9M96 in typical split of 24* Kalibr etc + 96* 9M96 as a relatively restrained way to fit various rumours scratch


    Last edited by hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 4:03 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 09, 2019 3:58 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:12 is a good number, there were 17 Sovremmenys in service, 12 22350M with 6 22350 is 18 ships, so Sov will be replaced fully. 22350/M will perform same blue water tasks. Excellent news. This means 20380 is necessary and fulfills adequate role that is needed. Building more 22350 did not mean they would have to cancel 20380 as many here continually suggested.

    12 is a a good half way point. I say extend 23850 to 24 units and build 6 Super Gorshkovs. I doubt they will ever get the money for Leader. You can still center the CVN around Super Gorshkovs if they specialise in the AAW role.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu May 09, 2019 4:13 pm

    48* UKSK + 96* Redut?! pale

    I think he is saying 100 weapons in total without the pantsirs. Something like 48 UKSK and 48 redut.

    Until 2030, consider that russian navy = UKSK.

    Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

    In terms of fire power Gorshkov is equal to 1 udaloy plus 1 sov with its 16 cells and 120km anti aur redut. Paket nk are good defences.

    But interms of ASW it lacks the bigger sonar and the 2nd ka-27 of udaloy.

    12 is a a good half way point. I say extend 23850 to 24 units and build 6 Super Gorshkovs. I doubt they will ever get the money for Leader

    You wanted 12 nuclear cruisers last week. Did my "numbers matters" worked on you Very Happy ?
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 4:17 pm

    Some more/higher res Gorshkov in Vladivostok from Balancer user Johnkey
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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu May 09, 2019 4:20 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

    In terms of fire power Gorshkov is equal to 1 udaloy plus 1 sov with its 16 cells and 120km anti aur redut. Paket nk are good defences.

    But interms of ASW it lacks the bigger sonar and the 2nd ka-27 of udaloy.

    if needed they could do a version of 22350M optimized for ASW with 2 helicopters and a bigger sonar, sacrificing something else. The Italians and French did that with their fremm frigates, building them in two versions, one multipurpose and one more specialized in antisub work.
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    Post  Hole on Thu May 09, 2019 5:35 pm

    The sonar of Udaloy was developed in the 70´s. The sonar of Gorshkov in the 2000´s. Why shouldn´t the smaller bow sonar of Gorshkov not be as good as that of Udaloy?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu May 09, 2019 6:36 pm

    Hole wrote:The sonar of Udaloy was developed in the 70´s. The sonar of Gorshkov in the 2000´s. Why shouldn´t the smaller bow sonar of Gorshkov not be as good as that of Udaloy?

    Subs also evolved and became quiter. Bigger somar are still better than smaller.

    It is better than 70s Udaloy's radar but not than a modern radar of same size as Udaloy's.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 09, 2019 7:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    You wanted 12 nuclear cruisers last week. Did my "numbers matters" worked on you Very Happy ?

    I said 4-6 nuclear Leaders.  We would never afford 12. I think Super Gorshkov is the reality and Leader is the wishful thinking.
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Thu May 09, 2019 8:25 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    MiamiMachineShop wrote:12 is a good number, there were 17 Sovremmenys in service, 12 22350M with 6 22350 is 18 ships, so Sov will be replaced fully. 22350/M will perform same blue water tasks. Excellent news. This means 20380 is necessary and fulfills adequate role that is needed. Building more 22350 did not mean they would have to cancel 20380 as many here continually suggested.

    Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

    Of course all those ships  do not.need to by replaced 1 vs 1, but 20380s cannot replace the udaloys...

    Edit:

    I.did not say that they.need to cancel 22380 to produce 22350s, but that if they are building both of.them at the same shipyard, building more large corvettes would delay the frigates produced by severnaya verf.


    It would be different if 22380 would be produced by other shipyards, of course, and if pella could produce them it would be ideal. They are however probably too big for.the smaller shipyards like Pella and more (feodosia).
    The other larger shipyards in west of the country that produce warships (yantar and zaliv) are already working at full capacity.

    They won't be replace 1 v 1, but will be close

    20380/22800/Buyan is replacing tarantul, grisha, nanuchka, parchim, and yet many of these will be upgraded and kept in service.

    22350 is replacing Sov. Udaloy will not be replaced until 2030, 5 will be upgraded with angled launchers for Uran, and VLS will be installed for Kalibr. Of Udaloy 15 served, 9 remain. They are in good condition, and will receive upgrades. Some more 22350 can take the place of Udaloys which were decommissioned. Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are receiving upgrades.

    2 lider + 2 kirov is enough

    then 2 carriers
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    Post  dino00 on Fri May 10, 2019 12:09 am

    George1 wrote:

    "In all, 12 frigates of this class are planned to be manufactured, with 11 out of them to be commissioned to the customer within the frames of the new state arms procurement program," the source added.


    What this means? 1 commissioned until 2027, 12 until 2030?(if it's 2023-2030 the new program)
    Sounds unrealistic. Don't understand what the source means.
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    Post  Gazputin on Fri May 10, 2019 9:17 am

    Vladimir is right Nuke Destroyers ? for what ? …. total waste of money … to me a total wanker …. nuke carriers …. a total wank

    interesting thing I read was "super Gorshkov" has a big increase in displacement

    sounds like the 20386 …..

    somewhere I read the geeks at the Naval research lab said they have found a new hull form that will allow a bigger displacement for the same size drive system to run it … Krylov ?

    something has happened …. for sure ….
    some hull breakthrough has happened …. and as I've said a few times before on earlier posts. ….
    everyone should be looking at the 20386 …. .that thing is the real future of the Russian surface fleet

    forget all this crap about carriers and destroyers …. and nuke power
    its a monumental wank ….

    I wouldn't waste 1 cent/ruble on a nuke surface fleet …



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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 10, 2019 12:11 pm

    If Russia wants any say economically or politically or militarily and if it wants a say in how it grows economically then it needs global reach and that means large surface ships and aircraft carriers to protect them.

    If they are only going to have a couple of them, they might as well be nuke propelled, it makes little sense to try to save a small amount of money and limit the top speed of your carrier groups because while the big ships are all nukes and can run at top speed for years if needed their carrier is conventionally powered and slow.

    The time frame they are talking about for the 7K ton improved Gorshkovs and the amount of time it would take to make the new 20K ton nuke destroyers they are also talking about I would expect them all to be nuclear electric drive vessels. By separating the NPP from the propulsion you can use NPPs like batteries and they can be replaceable... making refuelling the NPP super easy... a case of simply replacing the battery.
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    Post  Arrow on Fri May 10, 2019 12:55 pm

    https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/4-5-768x576.jpg
    This is how the real naval power is created. 15 destroyers at a time under construction. Russia will build 12 Gorshkovs M for the next 20 years.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 10, 2019 2:29 pm

    Arrow wrote: https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/4-5-768x576.jpg
    This is how the real naval power is created. 15 destroyers at a time under construction. Russia will build 12 Gorshkovs M for the next 20 years.

    Russia is currently building 4 22350 frigates (their capabilities, even with smaller size, are comparable to those of type 052D destroyers).

    The capabilities of type 055 destroyers will be more similar to 22350M than to the lider class or the nakhimov cruiser.

    Concerning the type 54A frigates, they are not bad ships, but a bit inferior to grigorovich class. The issue is that they were able to build a lot of them in a relatively short time, while Russia has only 3 of them.

    Russia does not need an oversized navy for which would not have the time to train the crews either.

    Anyway China benefited incredibly by the shipbuilding infrastructure realized in the last 30 years that made them one of the leaders in civil shipbuilding.

    Russia went in the opposite direction for many years.

    As China was not able to build warships at this pace and quality.in the 90s, Russia will need more time to get there.

    All.the investment will be very important, anyway, because at the moment the vast majority of (civilian) ships (except icebreakers of course) build for Russia are produced abroad.



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    Post  Tingsay on Fri May 10, 2019 5:13 pm

    China is supposed to have a larger navy than Russia.

    China is very dependent on trade. Without it, the country would literally starve to death and be forced to use horses for transport because their natural resources just do not match their humongous population. The Navy they are building is not done just so morons like Arrow can masturbate to it. It actually has a purpose and coincides with what their nation needs to survive. This obsession for hurr durr Naval might durr is nothing but fanboi and ego-stroking.

    Russia is a bit more on the self-sustainable side. If every nation in the world were to turn to a North Korea, China and India would probably be the very first to collapse aside from tiny nation states like Singapore.

    This is just one of many reasons why Russia shouldn't really rush a blue water navy. Russia just doesn't have enough assets/infrastructures to protect way beyond it's shores. It is also not very dependent on the natural resources of other Nations like France because it has a lot of it's own.
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    Post  Arrow on Fri May 10, 2019 6:39 pm

    eir capabilities, even with smaller size, are comparable to those of type 052D destroyers). wrote:

    Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 10, 2019 7:12 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.
    Edited

    the first 4 gorshkov frigates have better sensors and radars than type 052D and 48 VLS (16 UKSK + 32 Redut).
    From the 5th ship they will have 56 VLS (24 UKSK +32 redut)

    Furthermore, the Russians have more experience with both SAMs and cruise missiles, and better weapons.
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    Post  Hole on Fri May 10, 2019 9:45 pm

    What most people tend to forget is that Russia is surrounded by smaller seas. Smaller ships are better suited for this areas. Also land-based missiles and aircraft have a large impact in the Baltics, Black Sea, Sea of Okhotsk, Barents Sea and so on.

    Another important point: through to its location in the (more or less) core of Eurasia Russia doesn´t need a lot of big ships, because the endurance of small ships is more then enough to reach most flashpoints of today.

    Amiland needs big ships because it is in the midst of nowhere. A big ocean to the right, another to the left. It takes them a few days to reach anything.

    China has only one ocean on its shore, but two thirds of all Chinese live close to the coastline. That´s why the Navy is there No. 1 priority. Plus all this small islands in the South China Sea.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 10, 2019 10:57 pm

    Tingsay wrote:China is supposed to have a larger navy than Russia.

    China is very dependent on trade. Without it, the country would literally starve to death and be forced to use horses for transport because their natural resources just do not match their humongous population. The Navy they are building is not done just so morons like Arrow can masturbate to it. It actually has a purpose and coincides with what their nation needs to survive. This obsession for hurr durr Naval might durr is nothing but fanboi and ego-stroking.

    Russia is a bit more on the self-sustainable side. If every nation in the world were to turn to a North Korea, China and India would probably be the very first to collapse aside from tiny nation states like Singapore.

    This is just one of many reasons why Russia shouldn't really rush a blue water navy. Russia just doesn't have enough assets/infrastructures to protect way beyond it's shores. It is also not very dependent on the natural resources of other Nations like France because it has a lot of it's own.

    You will refrain from personal attacks and insults to forum members.

    Now, if the Russian navy was ever to face off against the PLAN we would have two advantages Our AShMs are vastly superior to the Chinese. Not only are they supersonic but they greatly outrange them. The listed figures of Chinese AShMs are actually quite fake. The reason is that China uses license produced 1st gen Microturbos used on the first gen Exocets. It is possible to extend the range by making a bigger missile but it still faces the law of diminishing returns. France never exported the engines used in Block 3 Exocet much less Scalp that give it greater range with more efficient engines. It is an export controlled technology China would never get. Another factor would be reliability, as the Indonesian president was humiliated during a navy demonstration both Chinese missiles fired failed to hit their targets.

    The second and most clear advantage is our submarines. Our nuclear submarines are vastly more stealthy than Chinese that are loud enough to alter the migration patterns of dolphins. Any navy with quiet nuke subs could put PLAN at the bottom of the ocean in days. Their ASW capabilities are totally inadequate to the task.

    In order for PLAN to threaten a carrier strike group they would have to get fairly close, so close they would be within range of Exocet Blk 3. The French and American carriers have buddy refueling capability and can operate from the 2nd island chain leaving very few mainland aircraft able to reach them. Only the operators of F-35B like the British would be unable to operate that far and would be subject to mass attacks by Chinese aircraft within the 1st island chain. When the Chinese carrier battle group goes out to meet them, they would have no viable aircraft to fly from it but helicopters as the J-15 is a complete failure.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 11, 2019 3:35 am


    MiamiMachineShop wrote:...They won't be replace 1 v 1, but will be close

    20380/22800/Buyan is replacing tarantul, grisha, nanuchka, parchim, and yet many of these will be upgraded and kept in service.

    22350 is replacing Sov. Udaloy will not be replaced until 2030, 5 will be upgraded with angled launchers for Uran, and VLS will be installed for Kalibr. Of Udaloy 15 served, 9 remain. They are in good condition, and will receive upgrades. Some more 22350 can take the place of Udaloys which were decommissioned. Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are receiving upgrades.

    2 lider + 2 kirov is enough

    .....


    Construction lineup should be:

    - Karakurts for tight areas and padding, replaces everything you listed. Cheap, fast and useful.

    - Bykov offshore patrol ships for precisely what their name says, they need less than dozen anyway so this should be quick. If Coast Guard keeps having problems with engines for Rubins then just keep making Bykovs for Coast Guard, same thing more or less.

    - Ivan Gren for transport, keep making them until they replace every single one of Ropuchas and Alligators 1 for 1.

    - Derzkii/Mercury for littoral zone and before anyone says it, no they are not under-armed, they are more than well armed for task they are designed for, they are flexible and if Navy wants to play in blue water with frigates they will need something to hold the fort back home even more. And I am sure that those new 100m production halls in Pella can deal with several meters of metal sticking out. Fishing boats already stick out. Move production there.

    - Standard Gorshkov should stay in production alongside bigger ships, they are both useful and will complement other ships efficiently.

    - Super Gorshkov instead of Lider for heavy work, if they have this one they don't need Liders especially if they would only build two like you suggest. Too much hassle for too few boats.



    For every one of these ships price will keep falling the more of them get made, just compare prices of first and last Steregushi.

    That's about it, keep it simple. Especially if they are so hell bent on getting those carriers.

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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 11, 2019 10:22 am

    The second and most clear advantage is our submarines. Our nuclear submarines are vastly more stealthy than Chinese that are loud enough to alter the migration patterns of dolphins. wrote:

    But now Russia has only two very stealth multipurpose atomic submarine. Project 885 and 885M and only another five submarine this class in the coming years.

    order for PLAN to threaten a carrier strike group they would have to get fairly close, so close they would be within range of Exocet Blk 3. wrote:


    China has a ballistic missile against aircraft carriers DF-21 and DF 26.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 11, 2019 12:30 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    But now Russia has only two very stealth multipurpose  atomic submarine. Project 885 and 885M and only another five submarine this class in the coming years.

    China has a ballistic missile against aircraft carriers DF-21 and DF 26.

    We have plenty of Akula IIs in service until then which are more than a match for Chinese ASW.

    China has only demonstrated the ability to hit a parking lot the size of a carrier deck. That is a long way from an operational missile that can hit a moving ship.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 11, 2019 12:42 pm

    Russia has only one Akula II class K-157 Vepr and one Akula III class Gepard. These submarine will not stay long in service.

    hina has only demonstrated the ability to hit a parking lot the size of a carrier deck. That is a long way from an operational missile that can hit a moving ship. wrote:

    Kh-47M2 Kinzhal probably can hit ships.

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