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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:42 am

    There was some talk of removing at least one 130mm gun from the Sovremmeny design, to increase the missile stocks, but I think the two turrets and the reportedly thousands of rounds they carried were later considered to be the better option.

    Ironically the 152mm guns offer an enormous increase in range and shell weight and accuracy... but I suspect they will be kept for Destroyer sized vessels.

    Would love to see a 203mm weapon developed for cruisers... but have not seen any evidence that this might be the case.

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    Post  kumbor on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:There was some talk of removing at least one 130mm gun from the Sovremmeny design, to increase the missile stocks, but I think the two turrets and the reportedly thousands of rounds they carried were later considered to be the better option.

    Ironically the 152mm guns offer an enormous increase in range and shell weight and accuracy... but I suspect they will be kept for Destroyer sized vessels.

    Would love to see a 203mm weapon developed for cruisers... but have not seen any evidence that this might be the case.


    Following USN ideas of MK-71 203mm deck gun, Soviet union made certain development of naval 203mm Pion/Malka, But as USN development was cancelled, corresponding soviet deck gun was cancelled also. Firing rate of up to 15rounds/min has been achieved, which was close to ballistic thermic maximum. Range of standard 2S7 is about 40km with ordinary projectile, and much more could be achieved with ERFB. New developments of powder and RA guided projectiles would give about 100km with ease. Russians are ingenious gunsmiths. If they assume it as a need, they will build it.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:There was some talk of removing at least one 130mm gun from the Sovremmeny design, to increase the missile stocks, but I think the two turrets and the reportedly thousands of rounds they carried were later considered to be the better option.

    Ironically the 152mm guns offer an enormous increase in range and shell weight and accuracy... but I suspect they will be kept for Destroyer sized vessels.

    Would love to see a 203mm weapon developed for cruisers... but have not seen any evidence that this might be the case.


    Modern gun would more be use for anti air and destroying small fast boats than in old way of fighting other ships. For such role big guns are more limited than smaller like 76mm specially for firing rates.

    Those 130mm guns on Sovremeny were made for assisting landing operations while Udaloys had smaller ones for anti air.

    Once you land ypur forces you let them care of any threats with the tanks.

    203 mm would be good for land attack and nothing more.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:23 pm

    And to scare pirates. Or Greenpiss. Very Happy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:09 pm

    kumbor wrote:

    Following USN ideas of MK-71 203mm deck gun, Soviet union made certain development of naval 203mm Pion/Malka, But as USN development was cancelled, corresponding soviet deck gun was cancelled also. Firing rate of up to 15rounds/min has been achieved, which was close to ballistic thermic maximum. Range of standard 2S7 is about 40km with ordinary projectile, and much more could be achieved with ERFB. New developments of powder and RA guided projectiles would give about 100km with ease. Russians are ingenious gunsmiths. If they assume it as a need, they will build it.

    actually last RG report about Russian 70km+ guided ammo was info. Projectilew will be offered in 2 calibers. 152mm i 203mm
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:35 am

    Following USN ideas of MK-71 203mm deck gun, Soviet union made certain development of naval 203mm Pion/Malka, But as USN development was cancelled, corresponding soviet deck gun was cancelled also.

    Yeah, the USN is one for Russia to follow... perhaps they can make a 7.5 billion dollar stealth destroyer too, or perhaps LCS?

    The Russians put the Sverdlov back into service so it could use its 152mm guns into use for NGS roles... they joint developed the 152mm Coalition with the Russian Army, presumably to reduce development costs, and one expects the naval 152mm gun to be put on destroyers... the question is... what will they put on upgraded cruisers?

    The Russian Army has kept their 203mm guns and 240mm mortars in service for specific ops where heavier guns are suited and developed guided shells for both weapons... why not develop a new long range 203mm gun with guided rounds too?

    Would likely be more use for the navy than the army... but sharing the costs should make it useful for both.

    Modern gun would more be use for anti air and destroying small fast boats than in old way of fighting other ships. For such role big guns are more limited than smaller like 76mm specially for firing rates.

    Actually using guided shells the rate of fire becomes irrelevant, and payload and calibre become more important because you can put a bigger guidance package into a larger calibre round.

    Instead of base bleed you could mount a ramjet motor to greatly extend range performance...

    Those 130mm guns on Sovremeny were made for assisting landing operations while Udaloys had smaller ones for anti air.

    With guided shells and airburst technology the 130mm shell could be ideal for all sorts of aerial targets... the extra HE capacity allowing much bigger targets to be engaged effectively.

    203 mm would be good for land attack and nothing more.

    A 110-120kg HE shell is a decent fraction of a common air delivered bomb (250kg bombs)... and would be fairly devastating against a wide range of land and sea based structures including air bursts for use against aircraft and weapons.

    actually last RG report about Russian 70km+ guided ammo was info. Projectilew will be offered in 2 calibers. 152mm i 203mm

    Well that is interesting...

    They used the 120mm guidance system for the Gran guided mortar fired missile as the basis of the Kitilov 122mm guided artillery missile and the Krasnopol 152mm guided shell too, so it would make sense to use the guidance package for the 152mm rounds for larger calibre weapons too... 203mm and 240mm rounds on land as well as at sea.

    I could see the 152mm ammo being used on destroyers quite widely... 3-4 hits on a small boat is the equivalent of 120-160kgs of HE hitting in 3-4 different places on a ship... which would be at least as effective as a 120kg HE warhead from a Kh-35... and likely rather quicker and cheaper.

    For a cruiser sized vessel a 203mm gun firing 110kg rounds... maybe to 80-90km range would be a useful way of dealing with some threats at good standoff ranges.

    It could even have a reduced payload extended range round... perhaps a 60-70kg HE round with double the range... perhaps 150-200km...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    actually last RG report about Russian 70km+ guided ammo was info. Projectilew will be offered in 2 calibers. 152mm i 203mm

    Well that is interesting...

    They used the 120mm guidance system for the Gran guided mortar fired missile as the basis of the Kitilov 122mm guided artillery missile and the Krasnopol 152mm guided shell too, so it would make sense to use the guidance package for the 152mm rounds for larger calibre weapons too... 203mm and 240mm rounds on land as well as at sea.

    I could see the 152mm ammo being used on destroyers quite widely... 3-4 hits on a small boat is the equivalent of 120-160kgs of HE hitting in 3-4 different places on a ship... which would be at least as effective as a 120kg HE warhead from a Kh-35... and likely rather quicker and cheaper.

    For a cruiser sized vessel a 203mm gun firing 110kg rounds... maybe to 80-90km range would be a useful way of dealing with some threats at good standoff ranges.

    It could even have a reduced payload extended range round... perhaps a 60-70kg HE round with double the range... perhaps 150-200km...


    https://rg.ru/2017/11/14/rossijskij-snariad-s-raketnym-dvigatelem-porazit-protivnika-za-70-km.html

    By the time of adoption, it will not only significantly surpass the ammunition currently used, but will also be at the level of the best foreign advanced developments. It is expected that the product will appear in two versions, one of which will have a caliber of 152 mm. According to military experts, this will allow it to be used both on the promising howitzer 2S35 "Coalition-SV" and on the Msta-S self-propelled guns and Msta-B towed guns that are currently used.

    According to some data, it is also planned to create a version of a 203 mm caliber for the Pion and Malka self-propelled guns.

    The record range of shooting - 70 kilometers or more - is achieved by supplementing the design of the ammunition with a direct-flow rocket engine of a bottom or head location. The engine turns on some time after the shot, at the moment when the fired projectile is already stabilized by rotation, and increases its speed on the trajectory.

    Military experts make assumptions that to improve the accuracy of the characteristics of these munitions will be equipped with special modules of satellite guidance.




    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 6 1529440050_3


    In Russian original they said:
    прямоточным ракетным двигателем  - ( with )direct flow rocket engine. What makes little sense to me.

    in turn Прямоточный воздушно-реактивный двигатель = direct flow jet engine = Ramjet.  Taking into account ring along warhead It looks more like ramjet to me. In atmospherics flight + 2-6Ma velocity ramjet has by order f magnitude better specific impulse. I bet on ramjet.




    AFAIKn 152mm shipborne Kolaitsya was cancelled some time ago but perhaps when Liders will go on,line this makes ense 152mm "long arm"  as cheapo alternative to land bombings.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:21 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    actually last RG report about Russian 70km+ guided ammo was info. Projectilew will be offered in 2 calibers. 152mm i 203mm

    Well that is interesting...

    They used the 120mm guidance system for the Gran guided mortar fired missile as the basis of the Kitilov 122mm guided artillery missile and the Krasnopol 152mm guided shell too, so it would make sense to use the guidance package for the 152mm rounds for larger calibre weapons too... 203mm and 240mm rounds on land as well as at sea.

    I could see the 152mm ammo being used on destroyers quite widely... 3-4 hits on a small boat is the equivalent of 120-160kgs of HE hitting in 3-4 different places on a ship... which would be at least as effective as a 120kg HE warhead from a Kh-35... and likely rather quicker and cheaper.

    For a cruiser sized vessel a 203mm gun firing 110kg rounds... maybe to 80-90km range would be a useful way of dealing with some threats at good standoff ranges.

    It could even have a reduced payload extended range round... perhaps a 60-70kg HE round with double the range... perhaps 150-200km...


    https://rg.ru/2017/11/14/rossijskij-snariad-s-raketnym-dvigatelem-porazit-protivnika-za-70-km.html

    By the time of adoption, it will not only significantly surpass the ammunition currently used, but will also be at the level of the best foreign advanced developments. It is expected that the product will appear in two versions, one of which will have a caliber of 152 mm. According to military experts, this will allow it to be used both on the promising howitzer 2S35 "Coalition-SV" and on the Msta-S self-propelled guns and Msta-B towed guns that are currently used.

    According to some data, it is also planned to create a version of a 203 mm caliber for the Pion and Malka self-propelled guns.

    The record range of shooting - 70 kilometers or more - is achieved by supplementing the design of the ammunition with a direct-flow rocket engine of a bottom or head location. The engine turns on some time after the shot, at the moment when the fired projectile is already stabilized by rotation, and increases its speed on the trajectory.

    Military experts make assumptions that to improve the accuracy of the characteristics of these munitions will be equipped with special modules of satellite guidance.




    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 6 1529440050_3


    In Russian original they said:
    прямоточным ракетным двигателем  - ( with )direct flow rocket engine. What makes little sense to me.

    in turn Прямоточный воздушно-реактивный двигатель = direct flow jet engine = Ramjet.  Taking into account ring along warhead It looks more like ramjet to me. In atmospherics flight + 2-6Ma velocity ramjet has by order f magnitude better specific impulse. I bet on ramjet.




    AFAIKn 152mm shipborne Kolaitsya was cancelled some time ago but perhaps when Liders will go on,line this makes ense 152mm "long arm"  as cheapo alternative to land bombings.

    Yes there is no anything as "direct flow rocket engine - motor. Obviously we are discussing ramjet, and view of proposed shell looks like ramjet assisted. I hope that there will be some kind of "resurrection" of "big gun" shipboard artillery. Russians are keen on that as it is also less expensive, by my opinion, than pure missile!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:04 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    Yes there is no anything as "direct flow rocket engine - motor. Obviously we are discussing ramjet, and view of proposed shell looks like ramjet assisted. I hope that there will be some kind of "resurrection" of "big gun" shipboard artillery. Russians are keen on that as it is also less expensive, by my opinion, than pure missile!




    I've found a bit more here, IMHO much more informative then the one on RG. Russians call "god of war" artillery ;-)


    https://topwar.ru/143276-chey-bog-voyny-poluchit-bonus-na-evropeyskom-tvd-gonka-za-sozdanie-unikalnogo-snaryad-nachata.html


    Whose "god of war" will receive a bonus on European theater? Race of unique shells

    Despite the fact that the 26th International Exhibition of Arms and Defense Technologies “Eurosatory-2018” ended in Paris three days ago, the news flow about the promising weapons samples announced on it continues to be actively disseminated and discussed in military analytical blogs and on other platforms of the masses -media, attracting an increasing number of fans and specialists in the field of armored vehicles, navy, artillery and combat aircraft. One of such samples was a demonstrator of a 155-mm high-explosive fragmentation projectile with a rocket-ramjet engine, represented by an open-type solid propellant gas generator. The product called "155 mm Solid Fuel RamJet", developed by the Norwegian-Finnish company "Nammo",


    Obviously, the creation of this project by Nammo specialists was driven by the realization that the work on designing a hybrid rocket launcher and a one-component rocket engine for the prototype of the British Supersonic Car supersonic car is only a one-time commercial deal that is incapable of giving neither significant economic growth of the company as a whole, nor further strengthening in the arms market in particular. After all, the project "Bloodhound SSC" provides mainly for obtaining research experience in the field of motion of ground-based supersonic objects. Another thing - artillery shells with a ramjet engine, capable of providing their operators with a mass of tactical "buns" in modern theater of operations against the enemy, using conventional high-explosive or active-rocket projectiles. Such products really can bring real success to a small, little-known company.




    It is noteworthy that even in the distant 50s and 60s. Twentieth century, Soviet specialists carefully worked out the design and principle of action of direct-flow air-projectiles for the M-24 and BM-21 “Grad” salvo systems in the hope of significantly increasing the range of the MLRS to achieve complete domination in theaters during the exchange of artillery strikes with adversary, but the queue at that time did not reach the implementation of such developments “in the gland”, because at that time there was experience in the manufacture and refinement of only large liquid ramjet engines, designed to For example, for the first intercontinental supersonic KR 4K80 “Storm”, the project of which was closed due to the low low efficiency of the RD-012U ramjet ramjet and the impossibility of 100% overcoming existing American missile defense systems amid 5, 5 times faster MBR 8K71 (R-7) and 8K74 (R-7A). However, scientific and technological progress led to the appearance in the mid-60s. The Circle anti-aircraft missile complex, the basis of which was a more compact than the Burya cruise missile, the 3M8 missile, equipped with a ramjet with a single air intake. It is this air duct design that will become the main one in the development of promising solid-fuel rocket-direct-flow projectiles.

    The active work of the specialists of the Tula “Scientific and Production Association“ Splav ”on the creation of a ramjet / RPD for missile systems of volley fire was announced in the 14th year by the representative of the association Igor Ivanov. After just three years, in August 2017, within the framework of the Army-2017 military-technical forum, a demonstrator of a standard 152-mm projectile with a ramjet engine for the Msta-S self-propelled missile sited at the stand of the Baltic State Technical University "Coalition-SV", as well as towed howitzers "Msta-B" and "Hyacinth-B", which indicates the conduct of work in two "branches" at once: for both the barrel and rocket artillery, which is in service with the Russian army. So the Norwegians with their rocket-ramjet projectiles "155 mm Solid Fuel RamJet" can hardly be called pioneers in this direction,



    The demonstrator of the Russian artillery projectile with a forward ramjet, unfortunately, is currently represented only by a mockup.


    It is worth noting that if the standard ZOF61 active-rocket shells for the Msta-S self-propelled gun (gun 2A64M2) and ZOF44 for the Pion (gun 2A44) can only achieve a 15% and 23% increase in firing range compared to conventional high-explosive 152-mm ZOF64 and 203-mm ZOF43, the new direct-flow projectiles increase this figure either by 80% or more than 2 times (depending on the type, quantity and intensity of solid fuel gas generator in the combustion chamber ramjet / RPD). In particular, our specialists say that the equipment of a 152- / 203-mm projectile ramjet or rocket-propulsion engine of the head or bottom type will increase the range to more than 70 km, which will already become a record figure for these calibers. Meanwhile, the “head” configuration (front engine location) raises some doubts about a 2-fold increase in range, because in this case there is simply no place to place a large and “long-playing” fuel charge on the gas generator. Such an arrangement of the engine will increase the range of the projectile, but only 1.5-1.7 times, or the use of liquid fuel supplied from the tanks built into the body of the projectile will be required.

    The most optimal variant is the “bottom” configuration of the placement of the rocket-ramjet engine with a large charge of solid or pasty fuel, which will make these figures (70-80 km) more realistic. The engine will start a few seconds after the gun leaves the cannon with an oncoming air flow and maintain a high flight speed of the artillery projectile for a long time, at a level of 3–3.5M, increasing the flight range and, accordingly, kinetic energy when a remote ground object is hit. There is also a negative point in the presence of a ramjet / RPD projectile: the inevitable decrease in the mass of explosives due to the volume allotted to the central body, the duct, the charge of solid fuel, the gas generator and the combustion chamber
    .

    However, this problem will be partially compensated due to the small circular deviation of the projectile (within 5 m), achieved due to the presence of a control system represented by small-sized nasal aerodynamic control wheels, and high kinetic energy at the moment of hitting the target. Another advantage of such ammunition will be a reduction in the likelihood of interception by enemy missile defense systems such as the Israeli Iron Dome anti-missile system, the British Land Ceptor air defense system, or the German 6-module anti-aircraft artillery complex MANTIS: the missile defense capability is increased due to the high speed of the projectile on the final leg of the flight, which complicates the process of capturing radar / opto-electronic guidance stations, leaving the calculation a minimum time.

    According to the well-known military expert Joseph Trevetik, representatives of the US armed forces instantly showed interest in the Norwegian 155 mm Solid Fuel RamJet. This is not surprising, since at a similar or slightly higher cost in comparison with the M982 “Excalibur” shtatovskim projectile, the Norwegian air-projectile projectile will provide a 50–60% range increase from 40 to 60–70 km (when used with M777 howitzers M109A6). When used from guns longer than 50 calibers, the range can increase to 85–90 km. Trevetik claims that such shells can provide a ton of tactical advantages to the US Marine Corps in case of an escalation of large-scale conflict in the western part of the Asia-Pacific region,

    For example, in the event of a conflict with Beijing, the 155-mm howitzer M777 with old OFS and even Excaliburs, delivered to the islands by LCAC air-cushion boats, will not be able to provide artillery support to marines advancing deep into the island network, while “155- mm Solid Fuel RamJet "will provide this opportunity. Of course, Joseph Trevetik did not take into account such circumstances as the Chinese fortified areas already erected on the islands, covered by the HQ-9B air defense system and anti-ship complexes YJ-12B, but from the point of view of the capabilities of the artillery, he is completely right.

    Direct impact air projectiles will have a greater impact on the course of a possible large-scale conflict in the European theater of military operations, especially in the Suvalki corridor (the area between Belarus and the Kaliningrad region). In the event of a collision between the Russian Armed Forces and the NATO Joint Armed Forces at this site, all of our artillery units stationed in the Kaliningrad region will be diverted to counter-battery work in the Polish and Lithuanian operational areas, while the main item on the Russian and Belarusian gunners task list will be to provide support motorized rifle and tank divisions that keep Suvalki corridor under control to save Kaliningrad. The length of this “corridor” is just 65 km, which means that it can only be covered by new “straight-through” artillery shells, announced at the Army 2017 forum, because spending hundreds of expensive strategic Calibers and tactical Ovodov-M for this purpose is not the best idea. But won't it happen that the Norwegian project from Nammo, backed up by billions of Pentagon injections, will enter the stage of large-scale production faster than our samples? This perspective is really alarming.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:09 am

    The nose position of the ramjet reminds me of the mounting they used for testing scramjets in the 1990s... they put the scramjet on the nose of an SA-5 SAM.

    It looked rather unusual, but was very interesting.

    Very simply the missile was launched normally and all the solid rocket boosters fell away and it kept climbing and accelerating till it got to about 12km altitude and about mach 4 in speed and then the scramjet took over.

    The scramjet accelerated the missile to about mach 6 and ran for about 133 seconds and ran out about 180km down range...

    An important point is that these ramjets don't need to get the shell airborne and moving... they could simply operate in an idle mode and reduce air drag to zero with a very low throttle setting to extend fuel burn time and maximise range...

    BTW they are putting 130mm guns on frigates... I would think a destroyer would need a bigger and better gun, and certainly a cruiser could do with something better too...

    A 152mm gun for destroyers, and a 203mm gun for cruisers makes sense...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:30 am

    GarryB wrote:

    An important point is that these ramjets don't need to get the shell airborne and moving... they could simply operate in an idle mode and reduce air drag to zero with a very low throttle setting to extend fuel burn time and maximise range...

    BTW they are putting 130mm guns on frigates... I would think a destroyer would need a bigger and better gun, and certainly a cruiser could do with something better too...

    A 152mm gun for destroyers, and a 203mm gun for cruisers makes sense...

    with 180 range ti definitely would make sense to have a piece of artillery on board. El cheapo replacement for Kh-25 or any cruise missile to bomb shore installations. I've never heard about 203 mm on ships now, although Russian destroyers will have likely close ~2x "Washingtonian" heavy cruisers' displacement lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:59 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    An important point is that these ramjets don't need to get the shell airborne and moving... they could simply operate in an idle mode and reduce air drag to zero with a very low throttle setting to extend fuel burn time and maximise range...

    BTW they are putting 130mm guns on frigates... I would think a destroyer would need a bigger and better gun, and certainly a cruiser could do with something better too...

    A 152mm gun for destroyers, and a 203mm gun for cruisers makes sense...

    with 180 range ti definitely would make sense to have a piece of artillery on board. El cheapo replacement for Kh-25 or any cruise missile to bomb shore installations.  I've never heard about 203 mm on ships now, although Russian destroyers will have likely close ~2x "Washingtonian" heavy cruisers' displacement lol1 lol1 lol1

    Some 40 years ago USN experimented with Mk71 8 in gun, mounted on Forrest Sherman DDG 945 -"USN Hull", but it was cancelled due to cost and structure cracking below deck,
    Soviets experimented with naval version of 2S7 203mm mounting, but it was also cancelled. There was also a project of low ballistics 406mm gun/missile mounting with 30-90 deg. elevation in a simple turret, never mounted aboard.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:36 am

    Well as I said they have 130mm guns on frigates... what are they going to put on destroyers... and cruisers?

    Guns are versatile dual purpose weapons... I mean you could even use a 152mm gun to deliver 40kg depth charges if you wanted to... the gun is the delivery system but the range of different rounds and projectiles you could deploy is limited only by your imagination.

    For a 203mm gun you could have Jamming rounds that emit signals to confuse an attacking force as to where your carrier is or your cruisers, or it could pretend to be a submarine and make all sorts of noises in the water.

    It could actively ping in the water to sniff out enemy subs... or with that calibre and range put a nuke depth charge in it to clear a choke point ahead of a surface action group on its way somewhere.

    A 203mm shell could be 110kgs with a 20kg payload and the rest could be fuel and control surfaces for an unmanned aircraft to attack incoming threats or penetrate deep into the target and explode inside an enemy ship.

    The options are only limited by the imagination...

    Some 40 years ago USN experimented with Mk71 8 in gun, mounted on Forrest Sherman DDG 945 -"USN Hull", but it was cancelled due to cost and structure cracking below deck,
    Soviets experimented with naval version of 2S7 203mm mounting, but it was also cancelled. There was also a project of low ballistics 406mm gun/missile mounting with 30-90 deg. elevation in a simple turret, never mounted aboard.

    The point is that now costs can be halved as the army and navy will be using this ammo, and if they are developing a landing ship like a Mistral then naval gun support becomes an issue too... the Soviets kept the Sverdlov in service for its 152mm guns... now such calibre weapons would be useful on destroyers and possibly on cruisers too, though I would think the bigger calibre offers better features without being too expensive... I mean it is only half the calibre of the guns of the Iowa class battleships so it is not even near the edge of the envelope really...

    EMALS could also be used for accelerating objects to high velocities and launching them relatively cheaply at targets... I mean for landing and launching 30 ton aircraft, if you drop the weight to a 250kg or a rather small fraction of 30 tons, then how high can you get the velocity? And what angle could you get it up to...

    Rockets take up a lot of space and use a lot of fuel to deliver their payload.

    Guns are more efficient and all weather day night capable, but EMALS would be even better still...
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:53 am

    GarryB wrote:Well as I said they have 130mm guns on frigates... what are they going to put on destroyers... and cruisers?

    Guns are versatile dual purpose weapons... I mean you could even use a 152mm gun to deliver 40kg depth charges if you wanted to... the gun is the delivery system but the range of different rounds and projectiles you could deploy is limited only by your imagination.

    For a 203mm gun you could have Jamming rounds that emit signals to confuse an attacking force as to where your carrier is or your cruisers, or it could pretend to be a submarine and make all sorts of noises in the water.

    It could actively ping in the water to sniff out enemy subs... or with that calibre and range put a nuke depth charge in it to clear a choke point ahead of a surface action group on its way somewhere.

    A 203mm shell could be 110kgs with a 20kg payload and the rest could be fuel and control surfaces for an unmanned aircraft to attack incoming threats or penetrate deep into the target and explode inside an enemy ship.

    The options are only limited by the imagination...

    Some 40 years ago USN experimented with Mk71 8 in gun, mounted on Forrest Sherman DDG 945 -"USN Hull", but it was cancelled due to cost and structure cracking below deck,
    Soviets experimented with naval version of 2S7 203mm mounting, but it was also cancelled. There was also a project of low ballistics 406mm gun/missile mounting with 30-90 deg. elevation in a simple turret, never mounted aboard.

    The point is that now costs can be halved as the army and navy will be using this ammo, and if they are developing a landing ship like a Mistral then naval gun support becomes an issue too... the Soviets kept the Sverdlov in service for its 152mm guns... now such calibre weapons would be useful on destroyers and possibly on cruisers too, though I would think the bigger calibre offers better features without being too expensive... I mean it is only half the calibre of the guns of the Iowa class battleships so it is not even near the edge of the envelope really...

    EMALS could also be used for accelerating objects to high velocities and launching them relatively cheaply at targets... I mean for landing and launching 30 ton aircraft, if you drop the weight to a 250kg or a rather small fraction of 30 tons, then how high can you get the velocity? And what angle could you get it up to...

    Rockets take up a lot of space and use a lot of fuel to deliver their payload.

    Guns are more efficient and all weather day night capable, but EMALS would be even better still...

    EMALS is an aircraft catapulting system. not designed to substitute gunpowder/liquid propellant in a gun. These are completely different things!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:13 pm

    kumbor wrote:EMALS is an aircraft catapulting system. not designed to substitute gunpowder/liquid propellant in a gun. These are completely different things!

    GB is just big fan or EMALS a bit like Chinese with soy sauce, good for everything lol! lol! lol!


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well as I said they have 130mm guns on frigates... what are they going to put on destroyers... and cruisers?

    there will be no cruisers, in RuN and on Lider so far there is planned 130mm. Perhaps they will return to Kolatsya in some time.



    GB wrote:The point is that now costs can be halved as the army and navy will be using this ammo, and if they are developing a landing ship like a Mistral then naval gun support becomes an issue too... the Soviets kept the Sverdlov in service for its 152mm guns... now such calibre weapons would be useful on destroyers and possibly on cruisers too, though I would think the bigger calibre offers better features without being too expensive... I mean it is only half the calibre of the guns of the Iowa class battleships so it is not even near the edge of the envelope really...

    or make BM21 with extended range ramjet guded missiles, what can be even cheaper





    GB wrote:EMALS could also be used for accelerating objects to high velocities and launching them relatively cheaply at targets... Guns are more efficient and all weather day night capable, but EMALS would be even better still...

    I am afraid you mix EMALS with railguns, that's not the same principle. In case of both you need ennormous amount of enrgy so basically nuclear power source. Which is not cheap.
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:44 pm

    Well, projected displacement of Lider will be somehting around 12.000 tons. They can call it a patrol boat, if they want to, but in fact it would be a cruiser.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:22 am

    EMALS is an aircraft catapulting system. not designed to substitute gunpowder/liquid propellant in a gun. These are completely different things!

    Accelerating a 30 ton aircraft to flight speed... say 200km/h is energy applied at a specific rate to avoid ripping off the nose wheel, but also getting the aircraft to speed within the allotted space available.

    There is no reason why the same mechanism could not be used to catapult lighter objects at higher speeds over longer distances... the catapult actually was a weapon before a gun did you know...

    Of course modern technology can overcome the limitations of string and weights to accelerate masses these days.

    GB is just big fan or EMALS a bit like Chinese with soy sauce, good for everything

    Yeah, those evil chinese took gunpowder and made fire crackers to scare away evil spirits... europeans used it in guns to murder people more efficiency... them damn evil chinese...

    The amusing thing is that you were complaining that the technology behind EMALS was a waste of money because it has no other use... did you also sabotage water powered cars and anti gravity technology... do you work for the oil companies?

    there will be no cruisers, in RuN and on Lider so far there is planned 130mm. Perhaps they will return to Kolatsya in some time.

    So the light small gun they are putting on Frigates will be the same gun they use on all their bigger ships you say... even after spending money and time developing Coalition with the Army... well you are all for efficiency aren't you...

    or make BM21 with extended range ramjet guded missiles, what can be even cheaper

    Extra range for Grad would not mean much as the payload would be 20kgs or less... Hermes would be better if that were the case... 100km range and 30kg payload and terminal guidance to make it effective.

    I am afraid you mix EMALS with railguns, that's not the same principle. In case of both you need ennormous amount of enrgy so basically nuclear power source. Which is not cheap.

    Duh.... the vessels you would be putting it on will require nuke power sources anyway... that is like saying you can't have a big powerful radar on your biggest fighter because the electricity requirements will make it expensive...

    Well, projected displacement of Lider will be somehting around 12.000 tons. They can call it a patrol boat, if they want to, but in fact it would be a cruiser.

    Just looking at the development of their Army, I suspect most of their ships of Destroyer and larger will be nuclear propelled and rather bigger than they have ever had before.

    The Army could simply have gone with an Armata MBT, a Kurganets BMP, a Boomerang BTR, and a Typhoon BRDM... what they actually went with was 3-4 full vehicle families... much more expensive initially because all existing vehicles would need to be replaced, but the pay off is that an armata division will now only have one engine type and one track type and one transmission type within the entire force. It wont have BMP based vehicles it wont have BTR based vehicles, and it wont have T-80 based vehicles like MSTA artillery vehicles. It will be the same for Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon divisions... each vehicle in the force will have very similar levels of armour and very similar mobility... it will be rather expensive, but when it is done it will be worth it.

    I suspect the same for the Russian Navy... they are not rushing things into service just to have lots of stuff in production... they have limited resources, but they are working out what they actually need and are moving towards getting that.

    They have Kirovs and Slavas, so the current need for new cruisers does not really exist yet.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:15 am

    GarryB wrote:There is no reason why the same mechanism could not be used to catapult lighter objects at higher speeds over longer distances... the catapult actually was a weapon before a gun did you know...


    It's not that kind of catapult and no, it can't be used as weapon.

    It like saying that you can cook soup with a toaster just because it's also food preparation device.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:35 am

    PapaDragon wrote: It's not that kind of catapult and no, it can't be used as weapon.

    It like saying that you can cook soup with a toaster just because it's also food preparation device.

    and if you are a Chinese you add in both cases soy sauce lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:23 am

    Before stoning GarryB, read this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
    Electromagnetic aircraft catapults are planned, including on board future U.S. Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carriers. An experimental induction coilgun version of an Electromagnetic Missile Launcher (EMML) has been tested for launching Tomahawk missiles.[22]

    Many more examples are given of ideas similar to those proposed by Garry, some of them actually tested

    EMALS is a nothing but a type of coil gun. Railguns are built differently but also operate based on Lorentz's force.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:31 am

    It's not that kind of catapult and no, it can't be used as weapon..

    And what kind of catapult is it?

    It is a linear acceleration device... WTF do you think a gun is?

    EMALS are designed to accelerate large heavy aircraft from zero to about 200km/h in the space of 30-50 metres depending upon the design.

    The mechanism uses electricity to accelerate masses... why do you think it could not be adapted to other purposes?

    On the moon such a machine could be spread horizontally on the ground and be 3-4km long and accelerate objects to moon escape velocity... there is no air friction so although it will be moving horizontally eventually it will leave the Moons gravity and enter moon orbit... without using any fuel.

    It like saying that you can cook soup with a toaster just because it's also food preparation device.

    Actually you can cook soup in a toaster.

    You can get silicon bags that fit into the slots of a popup toaster for cooking cheese on toast... you could easily fill one with soup, though you might have to put it back "down" a couple of times to make sure it is properly heated...

    Before stoning GarryB, read this:

    But no.... America does not do it that way so it cannot and will not be done that way...

    Get rid of the AK series of weapons, and of course the IFV class of vehicles, and indeed smoothbore tank guns, and tank gun fired guided missiles, rocket powered torpedoes, hypersonic missiles, ICBMs for that matter... all Soviet propaganda...
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:41 am

    GarryB wrote:
    It's not that kind of catapult and no, it can't be used as weapon..

    And what kind of catapult is it?

    It is a linear acceleration device... WTF do you think a gun is?

    EMALS are designed to accelerate large heavy aircraft from zero to about 200km/h in the space of 30-50 metres depending upon the design.

    The mechanism uses electricity to accelerate masses... why do you think it could not be adapted to other purposes?

    On the moon such a machine could be spread horizontally on the ground and be 3-4km long and accelerate objects to moon escape velocity... there is no air friction so although it will be moving horizontally eventually it will leave the Moons gravity and enter moon orbit... without using any fuel.

    It like saying that you can cook soup with a toaster just because it's also food preparation device.

    Actually you can cook soup in a toaster.

    You can get silicon bags that fit into the slots of a popup toaster for cooking cheese on toast... you could easily fill one with soup, though you might have to put it back "down" a couple of times to make sure it is properly heated...

    Before stoning GarryB, read this:

    But no.... America does not do it that way so it cannot and will not be done that way...

    Get rid of the AK series of weapons, and of course the IFV class of vehicles, and indeed smoothbore tank guns, and tank gun fired guided missiles, rocket powered torpedoes, hypersonic missiles, ICBMs for that matter... all Soviet propaganda...

    @GarryB, I can say only that you should talk to some friend who is electric engineer, or you should read any student`s book on applied electromagnetic principles. There you can find answers and find that EMALS and electromagnetic railgun are two veeryy different things.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:00 pm

    Off Topic Gents guns here emals and all but 22350 and soy sauce is off topic. Please open EMALS thread instead. Off Topic


    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA38/


    Northern PKB began preliminary design of a frigate of the project 22350M


    On December 25, the Northern Design Bureau (SPKB) signed a contract for preliminary design of the frigate of the project 22350M. About this on Friday, December 28, Mil.Press FlotProm said an industry source familiar with the situation.


    The work will be completed by November 2019 or earlier, another source told the publication.


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 6 1491453938_yayayaya

    one of variants 22350M,

    Designing an enlarged version of Admiral Gorshkov will take 2-2.5 years, and construction will take 4-5 years, added the source Mil.Press FlotProm. The proposed construction works are the St. Petersburg "Severnaya Verf" or the Kaliningrad factory "Yantar" (both enterprises are part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation - USK).
    The journalists of the publication could not officially confirm the signing of the contract either in the Special Design Bureau, or in the USC, or in the Main Committee of the Navy. At the same time, the design frigate bureau has already conducted certain pre-design works in accordance with the wishes of the Russian Navy, including on an initiative basis. The beginning of the design of the Northern PKB of the modernized frigates of the project 22350M was announced on July 28, 2018 by the Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk.

    A series of ships of the project type 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" limited to only four ships. It is planned to be completed by the end of 2022.

    Chief Advisor to the President of USC Viktor Chirkov ratedthe need of the Russian Navy in frigates of the project 22350 in 18 units. He made such a statement on August 22 at the round table "The Role of Shipbuilding in Strengthening Russia's Naval Potential and Its Economic Power" at the Forum-2018 forum. He also criticized the short series, calling them harmful to the industry and the fleet. Admiral Chirkov from May 2012 to April 2016 served as commander in chief of the Russian Navy.
    Help Mil.Press FlotProm

    Project 22350M frigates will have a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Northern Shipyard will be able to build them if it completes the modernization of production facilities on time.

    Earlier it was reported that the Russian fleet needs about 10 ships of the project 22350M, which will take an intermediate position between the frigates of the traditional displacement of 4,500-5,000 tons and destroyers.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:09 pm

    LMFS wrote:Before stoning GarryB, read this:


    Many more examples are given of ideas similar to those proposed by Garry, some of them actually tested

    EMALS is a nothing but a type of coil gun. Railguns are built differently but also operate based on Lorentz's force.

    well, why shall we stop in em generalization? classic AC/DC electric motor can be coupled with centrifugal grenade launcher and is also kind of gun right?

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