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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sun May 12, 2019 9:56 pm

    It says Kinzhal like not Kinzhal.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun May 12, 2019 10:04 pm

    Hole wrote:It says Kinzhal like not Kinzhal.

    Exactly

    SU-57 will have a hypersonic air launched cruise missile launched from the weapons bay.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 6:16 am

    It would need to be carried down the centreline.... there were plans for it to carry Onyx type weapons, so I would suspect they would adapt it to carry an air launched Zircon missile.

    @Vann, getting a fighter aircraft to hypersonic speed would need a lot of fuel and would require a lot of energy, and would mean any radar or optics would need to be minimised because of friction heating during normal operations... it would make the aircraft an excellent interceptor but pretty shit at everything else.

    Notice the SR-71 wasn't adapted for a wide range of roles... it stayed a recon aircraft and didn't operate over certain territories because of the risk.
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    Post  marcellogo on Mon May 13, 2019 11:29 am

    Vann7 wrote:


    I really think Russia did a mistake in not building PAK_FA as a hypersonic missile carrier..
    and a longer ,larger and wider bay ,  By the time their mig-41 goes to retail will be too late .. Needs to modify Pak-fa for a hypersonic missile strike capability.. even if the same missile range cut in half..
    a special version for Su-57.. will be very important.. with 300km range.. at least.

    but the more i think on it.. a mistake to build Pak-fa first.. they should have done Mig-41 first instead.. is much more deterrence a Hypersonic nuke carrier than a redundant plane ,than the previous su-35 can do the job.  If Russia don't take advantage of Hypersonic+stealth combo now,, it will be a fucking waste of opportunities ,if they wait 10 -15 years later.. for a mig-41 or pak-da carrier..  Putin is the king of missing Opportunities. with all the scientific talent Russia have, is for Russia to have a significantly more lethal Airforce ,and stop focusing so much in surface warships..
    with the money Putin wasted in stupid olympics is for him to have Pak-da and Mig-41 in mass production already in big numbers.. plus a real serious space civilian and military program..

    The correct thing that Putin , if he had any brains , will have been to counter US navy with Space bombers and interceptors new stealth Airforce.. + hypersonic missile force.. Whatever is a above in near space earth orbit ,will dominate whatever is below.. That is to build stealth Interceptors and and BIG stealth bombers,that US patriot defendes and Aegis can't counter..  that fly at 50km altitude at least..  This will deny traditional planes like F-16 or F-35 or F-22 completely unprepared to counter planes flying so high above them.. and will turn obsolete US , any aircraft carrier air defense.. vs targets above their air defenses capabilities...  NATO standard space interceptors for example are
    just mines they deploy in high altitude in space.. that can be easily evaded if a plane don't fly in
    a straigh line ,trayectory.. stealth  Space Bombers/interceptors > that any aircraft carrier group of NATO..

    Yes, because the F-22 built with a missile bay tailored for Amraam and the F-35 that would carry just the Jdam version of the 907kg bomb because the one with PaveWay guidance kit didn't just fit and that cannot carry nor the standard ARM than the anti-ship ordinance and that is still waiting for ad hoc designed weapons for such roles are in a much more better situation in that regard...really?

    About ordnances there is however this strange situation that the weapons that US and Rus VLO planes are designed to carry just greatly differ of size.

    On the F-35 they pass from the 2000lbs (but in case of laser guide they are limited to 1000lbs ones) to miniature size SDB and, in future, the SPEAR while the actual Ru guided bombs are at least 500kg heavy as they are still waiting for KAB-250, they however have missiles like the Kh-38 and Kh-31 without any western modern equivalent.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 12:44 pm

    You can't design a plane so fast it would be 100% safe.. hypersonic weapons are very difficult to intercept because of their high speed and the fact that they are not flying a predictable ballistic curve... if they fly straight and level they can of course be shot down... it is just a question of getting the lead right.

    The advantage of a hypersonic bomber is tiny because making an object that size move that quickly requires an enormous amount of energy so it will be burning a lot of fuel.

    Also keep in mind defending a point target from a hypersonic missiles means enormous closing speed, but a fighter shooting down a hypersonic fighter that is perhaps running away just means your missile just needs to be slightly faster than the aircraft you are shooting down... imagine an SR-71 running away from you at mach 3.5 and you are in a MiG-31 and you are at the altitude of the SR-71 but you are moving at mach 2.83 and so the target is gradually moving away... so of course you launch a mach 6 R-37M which catches up to the SR-71 and destroys it.

    The SR-71 has nothing like the manouver performance of an R-37M which is designed to hit subsonic targets pulling 8 gs.

    It is easy to make a missile... which is basically a tiny aircraft that is all engine and fuel and a little bit warhead and seeker faster than any manned aircraft... a missile is much lower drag and lighter weight than any aircraft especially a long range fighter or bomber to it will always be faster and modern ones with scramjet motors will be much much faster too.

    If you wanted a hypersonic PAK FA then they would not have any prototypes yet because they don't have the engine to drive the aircraft... and probably wont have it for a few years yet... they would have nothing in terms of stealth fighters.

    Even if they did a deal with the devil and magically got a hypersonic bomber... WTF use is it... it is basically Avangard but with a shorter range for goodness sake.... but all the new technology and systems going in to the MiG-35 and Su-35 and even Mi-28NM and Ka-52 would not have been developed... because hypersonic bombers are expensive.... and bloody useless... because in a real conflict the enemy will just fit a SAM or an AAM with a nuclear warhead and bludgeon you out of the sky.... look at its general trajectory and launch a 1 MT nuke and detonate it in the targets flight path... they might not be vapourised by the fireball but the shockwave will rip the wings off the aircraft and it will crash...

    So you have a hypersonic bomber that you can't really use because it is too expensive to use in places like Syria and anywhere you might want to use it NATO will nuke you... but now you don't have a 5th gen fighter or any of the technology developed for it that you have used in other programmes too.
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    Post  Gazputin on Tue May 14, 2019 10:03 am

    nobody in their right mind would build a hypersonic manned aircraft ....
    thing is with the Mig-31 and Dagger .... it is fast enough to launch it above Mach 1 and powerful enough to lift such a big missile
    its an airborne version of a land missile ... " a patch up job" .... a very very good one
    giveaway is the aerodynamic cone on the rear of the missile for the carrying phase

    thing is they will do a smaller one for the Su-57 ..... to fit in the weapons bay
    so shorter range and smaller warhead .... (do you actually even need a warhead if you hit something at Mach 10 ? )

    Su-57 will kill AWACs .... tankers ..... then pick off the smaller ships .... no doubt they will make sure it can kill a destroyer ....
    anything bigger .... Mig-31 or Tu-22 ....

    I've said numerous times .... I think the carriers are your last target .... I'd be hitting the guided missile cruisers and destroyers first ....
    what sort of a "strategic threat" are F-18s and F-35s ? .... seriously

    biggest threat in the oceans is the SSGNs .... surface ships are for "police actions"
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    Post  Vann7 on Wed May 15, 2019 12:35 am

    GarryB wrote:You can't design a plane so fast it would be 100% safe.. hypersonic weapons are very difficult to intercept because of their high speed and the fact that they are not flying a predictable ballistic curve... if they fly straight and level they can of course be shot down... it is just a question of getting the lead right.

    The advantage of a hypersonic bomber is tiny because making an object that size move that quickly requires an enormous amount of energy so it will be burning a lot of fuel.

    Also keep in mind defending a point target from a hypersonic missiles means enormous closing speed, but a fighter shooting down a hypersonic fighter that is perhaps running away just means your missile just needs to be slightly faster than the aircraft you are shooting down... imagine an SR-71 running away from you at mach 3.5 and you are in a MiG-31 and you are at the altitude of the SR-71 but you are moving at mach 2.83 and so the target is gradually moving away... so of course you launch a mach 6 R-37M which catches up to the SR-71 and destroys it.

    The SR-71 has nothing like the manouver performance of an R-37M which is designed to hit subsonic targets pulling 8 gs.

    It is easy to make a missile... which is basically a tiny aircraft that is all engine and fuel and a little bit warhead and seeker faster than any manned aircraft... a missile is much lower drag and lighter weight than any aircraft especially a long range fighter or bomber to it will always be faster and modern ones with scramjet motors will be much much faster too.

    If you wanted a hypersonic PAK FA then they would not have any prototypes yet because they don't have the engine to drive the aircraft... and probably wont have it for a few years yet... they would have nothing in terms of stealth fighters.

    Even if they did a deal with the devil and magically got a hypersonic bomber... WTF use is it... it is basically Avangard but with a shorter range for goodness sake.... but all the new technology and systems going in to the MiG-35 and Su-35 and even Mi-28NM and Ka-52 would not have been developed... because hypersonic bombers are expensive.... and bloody useless... because in a real conflict the enemy will just fit a SAM or an AAM with a nuclear warhead and bludgeon you out of the sky.... look at its general trajectory and launch a 1 MT nuke and detonate it in the targets flight path... they might not be vapourised by the fireball but the shockwave will rip the wings off the aircraft and it will crash...

    So you have a hypersonic bomber that you can't really use because it is too expensive to use in places like Syria and anywhere you might want to use it NATO will nuke you... but now you don't have a 5th gen fighter or any of the technology developed for it that you have used in other programmes too.


    Russia needs very fast bombers.. to counter than the idiot putin don't have military bases near US eastern Coast.. he should have pushed to build a giant naval and airforce base in Venezuela decades ago.. So by having hypersonic/or supersonic fast stealth + long range Bombers , you can deploy them any part of the world in very little time. and launch a hypersonic missile.. If for example Venezuela is invaded , Russia could send a hypersonic bomber and arrive Venezuela from Moscow in just an hour or two.. instead of 12 hours.. Remember than in wars Times is critical. it can't make the difference between saving a warship ,under attack by mysteryous pirates armed by NATO with Torpedos.... Russia needs a long range stealth bomber fast airforce with the capability to be anywhere on the world , in just 1-2 hours.. that will allow Russia ,to position in little time their Bombers ,in the most strategic zones ,they need.. the fast speed.. of the bombers , the faster the better ,it will also allow Russian planes to escape.. if they chased..

    if it takes Russia half a day ,to mobilize their bombers in a hot zone far from home, it might be too late to save any warship or allied country . Militarization of Space , a real serious Space force , based on stealth fast long range bombers , that fly beyond the range of 99% of NATO air defenses.. should be priority for Russia.. Russia can opportunities to win a war against NATO will increase dramatically ,
    if they build a fast stealth bomber force.. that can be anywhere in the world in 1-2 hours with nuclear armed hypersonic missiles.. Russia is eating big shit with their Pak-fa .. that plane is not deterrence
    for NATO.. will not win any war..at best only control a zone.. near Russia.. But a hypersonic Mig-41 ,armed with a nuclear hypersonic missile ,that can be very serious threat to any Nation either US or Israel...or maybe UK , Because Russia can fly near any nation borders very fast , and enemies will not have the time to intercept the plane ,for not having planes that fly as fast or as high as Russian ones.. NATO will to invest a fortune in new generations planes ,if Russia rules the near space orbit..
    Because Any NATO Aircraft carrier formation ,will be very very vulnerable to a hypersonic missile launched from Space in a surprise attack.. and NATO will have no way to catch or lock the plane.. it will be too fast for them to catchup.. Cool

    High altitude near space bombers that are very fast.. and travel any part of the world.. will force
    US to sign a new treaty ... and remove their missiles from Europe.. in chance for Russia not flying
    near their territory.. this is not mentioning the capabilities of those planes to shot down satellites.
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    Post  Vann7 on Wed May 15, 2019 12:57 am

    Gazputin wrote:nobody in their right mind would build a hypersonic manned aircraft ....

    Russia is building one.. according to Sputnik...
    You need SPEED the faster the better , and Long Range , if you want to have the best possible
    quick response to an Enemy attack. anywhere in the world..

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201708271056829517-mig-31-41-russia-interceptor-aircraft-features/



    The MiG-41 will be hypersonic (reported speed — 4,500 km) and will be able to carry hypersonic missiles. It is also designed for the Arctic and could possibly be turned into a drone.

    The MiG director general told earlier the Russian Zvezda TV channel that the aircraft will have unique combat capabilities, in particular, it will be invisible to enemy radars and even be able to work in outer space. He provided no further details.  



    So it seems that Russia military agree with me on this.. we are on the same page..
    my major complain is that they should have pushed for Mig-41 first.. than Pak-fa..
    Far more important , far far more deterrence.. the Su-57 is just a dog fighter with stealth..
    Russia airspace will be safe.. with S-400s..and Su-35s// will do well..  So if Putin was limited
    its budget..consequences of his incompetence and wasting money is useless olympics.. then
    at very least , he should have realized , that he screwed big time ,the priorities , Military and space is more important than a stupid Sport medal..  So at very least. he will have pushed to release first Mig-41 and or a long range stealth fast bomber.. instead of investing in another redundant Dog fighter plane that Russia don't need.   Mig-41 can do the hit and Run tactics better ,the plane will fly faster than missiles..  Wink  at least this is what Russia military claims.. better in every way  than Su-57 is supposed to do... since is far more faster and should fly way higher ..away of US navy air interceptor  defenses.. and carry more weapons and longer range too..

    The only thing that Su-57 will do better is in close combat dogfight.. But if Russia allows NATO airforces to get close ,to their stealth  planes and miss their stealth advantages ,then they are doing something wrong..  Dogfight should be last resort .when there is no risk.. lets say 1 vs 1 and the long range missiles fails.. and have no choice but to go close combat.. Going dogfight vs an Airforce that will surpass Russia airforce 10 vs 1.. in numbers will be a mistake..   Hit and Run tactics.. standoff
    weapons.. and speed and stealth is the best way , for Russia to counter enemies and take advantage of their long range missiles.. other wise a big waste of stealth ,if Su-57 goes visual combat.. it might dominate one or two  plane ,but will always overwhelmed by NATO in numbers.. means a high risk of losing planes.. if go close combat fight.. So Su-57 is not really need , if they have Mig-41.. which can do much more damage and finish a fight before it  start... ie.. sink an aircraft carrier more easily..
    and run away untouched and safely..  Cool   Mig-41 could be the most important weapon for Russia ,for turning the tide in any war.. While Su-57 ? mehh.. is just another Sukhoi plane but with stealth. and a bit more abilities for dog fight.. which is a wrong tactic anyway.. when you can go distance fight and be safer.

    if i was in charge of Russia military..and budget.. the most important projects will be
    the militarization of Space.. and the domination of civilian space exploration too..
    1) build a couple of dozens mig-41 , hypersonic stealth near space plane interceptor.. armed
    Kinzhal like missiles..
    2) build a multi use space shuttle/ space bomber like a stealth Space Shuttle ,armed with a dozen of Avangard nuke gliders.. that will definitively raise eyebrows in the west , and scare the hell of them.. and will force US ,into a new arms treaty ,and with Russia having the upper hand , Russia could demand US to dismantle NATO and remove all military bases in Europe ,and other bonus, if it wants to negotiate a world wide ban of hypersonic planes and missiles.

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    Post  Gazputin on Wed May 15, 2019 4:03 am

    due to the small build numbers - you will have to use as much existing componentry as possible
    so it will have at its core the Su-57 flight computer and probably the Mig-31 intercept computer
    probably the Su-57 engines with a ramjet bypass duct ....
    and will probably look a lot like the Su-57 or YF-23

    given that the Su-27 and Mig-29 look pretty much the same both being done by Tsagi
    I'd bet the Mig-41 and Su-57 will look similar too ... via Tsagi

    I may well be that the Mig-41 ends up being a 4 engined "Su-57"
    to lug those big missiles .... internally
    and that is possibly why there isn't a 2-seat Su-57 ..... yet

















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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 15, 2019 10:37 am

    Russia needs very fast bombers.. to counter than the idiot putin don't have military bases near US eastern Coast..

    Putin has a fast bomber... Avangard moves at mach 27 both in and outside the atmosphere and delivers a nuclear bomb...
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 15, 2019 10:48 am

    New engine with supercruising capability to tu-160 would make their nuclear capability increase. As long as its missiles have stand off ranges and are stealth/fast, tu 160 will be enough. It is easier to make a hypersonic missile of 2-3 tons than a huge hypersonic bomber.

    With mach 5-6, s-400 missiles are already hypersonic.

    Mig-41 is an interceptor. The faster it goes the better it will do its work.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 15, 2019 2:05 pm

    Also the MiG-41 is described as to be able to fly at mach 4.3 or so, which means it is not technically a hypersonic aircraft... Hypersonic is generally considered to be a flight speed above mach 5 where you can use a lifting body shape for efficient cruising flight...

    The MiG-31 already carries hypersonic weapons in the form of the Kinzhal and of course the space launch rocket they have developed for it.

    If they could manage to get the Tu-160 to supercruise it would be absolutely ideal as a bomber because such speeds would greatly shorten the distance at which an interceptor could effectively intercept it... F-35s would be unable to effectively intercept a target moving at more than mach 1.2, and for an F-22 to reasonably intercept it it would need to go full AB and mach 2, which would dramatically shorten its effective flight radius and dramatically reduce its all round performance.

    You don't just push a button and all of a sudden you are flying at max speed... you have to climb to at least medium altitude and maintain full AB for several minutes to get to top speed... which burns a hell of a lot of fuel.

    If the Blackjack could operate at mach 1.6 or faster it would cover its normal flight range in half the time and be rather difficult to intercept with any conventional interceptor... the exception would be the MiG-31 ironically because it is designed to operate at mach 2.4 for its entire flight duration... newer models can fly rather faster...
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    Post  Arrow on Wed May 15, 2019 4:45 pm

    vangard moves at mach 27 both in and outside the atmosphere and delivers a nuclear bomb... wrote:

    But only at the beginning of the flight. Maneuvers and flight in the atmosphere limit speed very much. In the terminal phase of the Avangard, probably a few Machs fly
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 15, 2019 7:06 pm

    Arrow wrote:But only at the beginning of the flight. Maneuvers and flight in the atmosphere limit speed very much. In the terminal phase of the Avangard, probably a few Machs fly

    Really? You were there during tests? Got pics?

    If they wanted a missile that hits target at couple of machs they could have just pulled something out of Cold War museum
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    Post  Arrow on Wed May 15, 2019 7:19 pm

    These are the laws of physics. The warhead flying in the atmosphere and maneuvering faster loses energy.
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    Post  ult on Wed May 15, 2019 7:20 pm

    Straight from Putin.

    New contract for 76 Su-57 till 2028 will be signed soon. Plus weapons and ground infrastructure under the same contract.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6434341
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 15, 2019 7:27 pm

    ult wrote:Straight from Putin.

    New contract for 76 Su-57 till 2028 will be signed soon. Plus weapons and ground infrastructure under the same contract.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6434341


    I wonder what new talking point among reddit stealth fanboys will be after this Cool
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 15, 2019 7:34 pm

    Good start. If the production goes better than expected just stop SU-30SM.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 15, 2019 7:39 pm

    Agreed. This first order for 78 is just a general order till a certain point. Adjustments are made and guaranteed they will just up the orders in the other MAKS in coming years.
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    Post  ult on Wed May 15, 2019 8:01 pm

    In English: http://tass.com/defense/1058494

    "The 2028 arms program stipulated the purchase of 16 such jets," Putin recalled. According to him, having assessed the situation, Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu reported that manufacturers reduced prices for both the aircraft and the equipment by 20%, which provided the opportunity to purchase more of these jets. "We have agreed to purchase 76 such fighters without the increase in prices in the same period of time," Putin said.

    The Russian leader underlined that the Russian defense industry had not done anything like that in terms of the scale and on the new platform in 40 years. He expressed hope that the updated plans would be fulfilled. "In the nearest future we will sign a package contract to supply 76 such jets equipped with modern weapons of destruction and provided with the necessary land infrastructure," Putin pointed out.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm

    We will get to know what the contract price is so we can determine how much the jet really cost.
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 15, 2019 8:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:We will get to know what the contract price is so we can determine how much the jet really cost.

    Not really as they talk about ground equipment and weapons. Unless they give details.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 15, 2019 8:37 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:We will get to know what the contract price is so we can determine how much the jet really cost.

    Not really as they talk about ground equipment and weapons. Unless they give details.

    I sure hope they do.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 15, 2019 8:52 pm

    Tass got it wrong

    It's not 2028( there's no armament program 2028) it's 2027

    From Kremlin website

    http://kremlin.ru/

    Interfax

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=508303&lang=RU

    Nitpicking... More SU-57 it's good. attack
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    Post  marcellogo on Wed May 15, 2019 10:59 pm

    Man!affraid affraid affraid 76 planes in a single order is an absolute enormity for Russian (non Soviet) standard!
    And not, it's not 76 until 2027, it's as usual an order "in the framework"of the SAP 2018-2027, every five years there is a review, so next one SAP will be the 2023-2032.cheers

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