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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

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    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:30 am

    ...Now back to the discussion:

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 10 Foto_su57_s_vosemyu_boevyimi_zvzdami_vyizvalo_diskussiyu_v_seti-0687h19m-1542805376.t
    That many stars makes no sense confused
    They were only there 2 days & from my understanding each star is supposed to be 10 combat sorties, maybe if its only 1 sortie per star?

    What's interesting is that they carried several sorties under heavy ECM environment
    Kinda should be a given really...
    Still think it was not wise to expose them to the mass of US/pawns spy stuff in the area like that.


    Has there been a rough ETA for when the first production airframe is expected?
    Any confirmation of it being notably different from the prototypes/pre-production models?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:05 am

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:46 am

    At the 15:26 minute mark they get in to the computing aspect of the Su-57, and how the 'radio-optical' components sufficiently increased performance. At the 28:50 mark they say the goal for Su-57's munitions is to increase the range by 2-fold, and it wont necessarily double the rate of error probability.


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:19 am

    I guess this stars have more to do with weapons tests then the sorties flown in Syria.

    We only learned of the deployment to Syria from Shoigu afterwards. If the west with all his recon assets had got wind of it he would have leaked it to the media.

    It could also mean that the Su-57 worked much better in Syria then the west thought.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:30 pm


    About sortie marks, we know that two Su-57 were there just for two days and that they were all sent back when news broke in media but there have been two more aircraft in Syria who were there for longer, this could be one of them
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:07 pm

    The thing is that Russian weapons are weapons of war, so sending prototypes to Syria to see what works and what does not makes rather more sense than Israel having operational F-35s but refusing to fly them in Syrian airspace because the risk is too great...

    Spend well over 100 million dollars on a plane you are too afraid to use?

    Perhaps they wont use their SAM systems either in case the enemy finds out a bit about their performance.... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:26 pm

    Hole wrote:I guess this stars have more to do with weapons tests then the sorties flown in Syria.

    We only learned of the deployment to Syria from Shoigu afterwards. If the west with all his recon assets had got wind of it he would have leaked it to the media.

    It could also mean that the Su-57 worked much better in Syria then the west thought.
    There are many interesting theories one can entertain about the deployment, indeed.

    I tend to think the planes went there, did their thing (test in hot conditions / real ECM environment / test own EW and radioelectric systems etc.), probably more than two days, and then the presence was discovered or allowed to leak. Planes were removed immediately afterwards (or even before the leak?). The matter of telling the world abut the deployment both serves as promotion of Russian military prowess and accomplishments of the PAK-FA program and sends a message to the West, in case they were not aware of the deployment in advance. And there agree with you, if they could have noticed the deployment they would have had a wonderful opportunity to announce it and seriously and effortlessly discredit the plane, and by extension the whole MIC, for developing a "fake" stealth fighter.

    I wonder though how the serious risk of exposing the fighter's signature was evaluated. If no RAM covering on them, they would be much easier to detect but the signature not really representative of serial plane. With RAM, less probability of detection but higher risk of revealing final RCS. On the other hand, it would be a prime place to test Himalaya. Or simply they could have operated under cover of Russian jamming, who knows.
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    Post  Nibiru on Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 am





    Su-57 jets will be equipped with hypersonic missiles similar to Kinzhal — source

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 10 1209477

    MOSCOW, December 6. /TASS/. Russia's fifth-generation jet fighter Su-57 will be equipped with hypersonic missiles with characteristics similar to that of the Kinzhal missile, a source in the aircraft industry told TASS on Thursday.

    "In accordance with Russia's State Armament Program for 2018-2027, Su-57 jet fighters will be equipped with hypersonic missiles. The jet fighters will receive missiles with characteristics similar to that of the Kinzhal missiles, but with inter-body placement and smaller size," the source said.

    The source did not provide details on specific characteristics of the new missiles or clarifications on when they will be tried.

    No official confirmation of this information was obtained by TASS.

    Russian Aerospace Defense Forces' MiG-31K jet fighters are equipped with Kinzhal hypersonic missiles. Kinzhal missiles are practically impossible to detect with moden air defense systems. Their range exceeds 2,000 km.

    According to open sources, the Kinzhal missile was designed on the basis of Iskander ground-based missile defense systems.

    http://tass.com/defense/1034559
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:46 am

    Great news!

    Su-57 gets even more interesting, Will not be compared with another fighter!

    4 mini khinzal per plane?
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:33 am

    dino00 wrote:Great news!

    Su-57 gets even more interesting, Will not be compared with another fighter!

    4 mini khinzal per plane?
    That's what it seems indeed. Range and warhead of the missile will suffer (by how much?) but internal carriage is a big advantage for drag and RCS of course. Had thought the Kinzhal itself would be adapted but if they develop a new weapon for the Su-57 it is even better thumbsup
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    Post  Hole on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:58 pm

    More like one in each bay.

    Even a range of 1.000km would be very good.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:52 am

    If they develop a mini kinzhal they could redesign it to make it more efficient.

    The original Kinzhal seems to be Iskander, so solid rocket propulsion... AFAIK it uses two fuel propellant stages with a fast burning high energy fuel to get it airborne and up to speed and then a slower burning solid rocket fuel to reduce drag and allow the missile to retain speed better.

    With a customised air launched model some sort of ramjet or scramjet engine could be added instead of the slower burning solid rocket fuel to allow full throttle control... low fuel burn for cruising and then high throttle for extra energy in the terminal phase to allow manouvering without losing speed.

    Most importantly a smaller missile able to be carried internally means a smaller missile that could be carried in quite large numbers on other platfoms... the MiG-31 could carry a conventional Kinzhal under its belly and four smaller missiles on wing pylons... Tu-22M3M could carry four Kinzhals externally plus another 6 missiles in the internal rotary launcher...

    Su-30/34/35 and MiG-35 could carry them too.

    Even with the modest performance of mach 4-5 and 800-1,000km range they would still be rather potent weapons.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:08 pm

    dino00 wrote:Great news!

    Su-57 gets even more interesting, Will not be compared with another fighter!

    4 mini khinzal per plane?


    1)it's weapons bay length is  ~5m right?

    2) Kh-50 (subsonic) and GZUR (hypersonic) missiles with 1,500km were to fit to Tu-22M revolver launcher i.e. to have ~ 5m...


    Let me guess what will this new missile could be? i only wonder why 6m is here? Ks-15 was <5m

    http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/189449/

    However, this is no news. About the project GZUR, which is also called "product 75", it became known 4 years ago. Length - 6 m, diameter - 1.5 m. Weight - 1500 kg. That is almost the same as that of the X-50, since the rocket is also supposed to be placed in the bomb compartments of our strategic missile carriers. The engine, of course, hypersonic direct-flow air-jet (scramjet). The range is 1500 km. GOS - active-passive radar.

    It is curious that the Americans, without any doubt, cite a statement by Colonel-General Alexander Zelenin, the former Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force , that starting from 2020, 50 GURZ missiles will be produced annually. And this is despite the fact that a much more prepared "Zircon" should come to the army two years later.

    There are plans to create by 2030 the second stage of the PLSM, which they are going to overclock to 12 M and significantly increase its range.


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 10 F35_fiziologicheskij_urod_2
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:24 pm

    Weapons bay of the Su-57 seems to be capable for 4.2 x 0.4 m ordnance. The Kh-59MK2 is probably the load that uses up the available space the most and is reported to weight 770 kg. So a hypersonic missile would not be much different in dimensions, and its range would probably be closer to 500 km than to 1500 IMHO, given the substantial reduction in volume compared to the missiles you are referring.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:02 pm

    LMFS wrote:Weapons bay of the Su-57 seems to be capable for 4.2 x 0.4 m ordnance. The Kh-59MK2 is probably the load that uses up the available space the most and is reported to weight 770 kg. So a hypersonic missile would not be much different in dimensions, and its range would probably be closer to 500 km than to 1500 IMHO, given the substantial reduction in volume compared to the missiles you are referring.


    4,2x0,38m is more less size of R-37 but frankly speaking  I've never found any size estimates of Su-57 internal weapons bay size.  Look ~5m to me.  From the other side
    Ks-15 had 4,8m x 0,46m and 1,200kg and was fir for Tu-22M launcher.

    So no that far form missiles what already fit in.  

    Logically would be to build universal missile to all fighters/bombers especially that GZUR is to be airborne only. But of course we need to live to see  results.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:19 pm

    Even with the modest performance of mach 4-5 and 800-1,000km range they would still be rather potent weapons.

    Even old kh-59 is immune against NATO air defence or any country that adopted the nato standard of "air force rather than air defence".

    This thing is overkill.
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:50 pm

    You a damn right. This is exactly the point. Twisted Evil
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:22 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:4,2x0,38m is more less size of R-37 but frankly speaking  I've never found any size estimates of Su-57 internal weapons bay size.  Look ~5m to me.  From the other side
    Ks-15 had 4,8m x 0,46m and 1,200kg and was fir for Tu-22M launcher.

    So no that far form missiles what already fit in.  

    Logically would be to build universal missile to all fighters/bombers especially that GZUR is to be airborne only. But of course we need to live to see  results.
    4.2 x 0.4 is also the size of Kh-58UShKE, Kh-38M is 4.2 m long also but only 0.3 min diameter. It is "highly likely" that this is not a coincidence, logically those missiles, specially the 59MK2, should have been developed to use up the space the most, so I would not count on bigger ordnance to fit in the bays. They are already remarkably big for a fighter.

    Paralay made some pretty detailed drawings of the bays, do not know how precise they are for the internal dimensions but the external ones should be relatively easy to check:
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5 - Page 10 Missil10
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:31 am

    LMFS wrote:
    4.2 x 0.4 is also the size of Kh-58UShKE, Kh-38M is 4.2 m long also but only 0.3 min diameter. It is "highly likely" that this is not a coincidence, logically those missiles, specially the 59MK2, should have been developed to use up the space the most, so I would not count on bigger ordnance to fit in the bays. They are already remarkably big for a fighter.


    true, with small remark: R-37 and Kh-58 were conceived way before PAK FA started.

    Paraly according to your quoted pic estimated size of weapons bay to ~4,68 m what is damn close to Ks-15 size 4,78m. Thus also anticipated GZUR one. But you're right we need to live and see how it goes.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:45 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    4.2 x 0.4 is also the size of Kh-58UShKE, Kh-38M is 4.2 m long also but only 0.3 min diameter. It is "highly likely" that this is not a coincidence, logically those missiles, specially the 59MK2, should have been developed to use up the space the most, so I would not count on bigger ordnance to fit in the bays. They are already remarkably big for a fighter.


    true, with small remark: R-37 and Kh-58 were conceived way before PAK FA started.  

    Paraly according  to your quoted pic estimated size of weapons bay to ~4,68 m what is damn close to Ks-15 size 4,78m. Thus also anticipated GZUR one. But you're right we need to live and see how it goes.


    Kh-15 was conceived in the mid-1970's, so a slightly smaller but a much more capable system is very much doable.
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:21 am

    Always nice to have grand plans and the plane as a platform is a solid achievement but fleet size also matters.

    I wouldn't really worry much about whether it can fit these missiles on the internal bays or not. If the fleet size of this plane stays horrendously low the overwhelming majority of the planes carrying this ordinance will be Su-30s, Su-34s and Su-35s on external hardpoints. Might as well be on the Su-57s as well.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:03 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:true, with small remark: R-37 and Kh-58 were conceived way before PAK FA started.  
    Both Kh-58UShKE and Kh-38M apparently presented at MAKS 2007 and meant for internal carriage on the PAK-FA. Original Kh-58 was 4.8 m long. With the R-37 I don't know, some say the specific long range AAM for the PAK-FA is the izd. 810 of which I know nothing but rumours. In any case R-37M seems to be 4.2 m long too, but maybe it is not optimized for internal carriage (it was hinted previously that it would be carried by the Su-57 externally)

    Paraly according  to your quoted pic estimated size of weapons bay to ~4,68 m what is damn close to Ks-15 size 4,78m.
    That is the size of the covers, not the internal space acc. to his drawings (4.38), but cannot say whether he is right.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:56 am

    The Kh-59MK2 is probably the load that uses up the available space the most and is reported to weight 770 kg

    Are you sure that it can be carried internally and is not an external weapon option, because according to the people who make it the Kh-59MK2 is 5.7m long...

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/multipurpose_missiles/aircraft_guided_missile_kh-59mk2.html

    In any case R-37M seems to be 4.2 m long too, but maybe it is not optimized for internal carriage (it was hinted previously that it would be carried by the Su-57 externally)

    My understanding was that the Su-57 could carry four R-37Ms internally... two side by side in each main weapon bays... plus two small missiles in the internal wing bays, leaving four wing pylons and two engine positions for 6 more weapons externally if stealth is not important.
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:23 pm

    GarryB

    The only missile That we saw being launched from Su-57 internal bays was the kh-59MK2

    They presented in MAKS 2015 a export version with 4.2m.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t6570p25-russian-tactical-air-to-surface-missiles-asm

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    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:13 pm

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