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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:04 pm

    I'm going to put this nonsense from people like flanker to rest:

    But but but Zhuk A? We're is it? Roosia too stupid to make AESA.

    Answer: because no MiGs for Russia. See how many MiG-35'd they ordered? 6 total. And to be used for acrobatics. Lol. Mikoyan jets are not needed beyond interceptor MiG-31.

    Russia has years of experience in making AESA. Nebo SVU is AESA as example. Pantsir S2 radar is also AESA. As I said before, Istok made thousands of modules already. Tens of thousands. Us, N036 is in much wider use. It may have something to do with Su-57 going to actually be fielded unlike MiG-35?

    Zhuk radar has never been on a Sukhoi.

    There, happy? Good. Now take false equivalency elsewhere.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:05 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Actually prototypes does exist, Rostec stated so and it was said in my link (link was in new technologies thread).

    http://tehnoomsk.ru/node/2522

    Fighter based radar maybe not.  But ground  based for sure.

    Yeah. so how about being real and stop relating ROFAR thing with Su-57 as we know that the radar wont be flying for maybe years or decades.



    Plus. please refrain from being stupid.  Zhuk-A radar and MiG-29/35 have nothing to do with this.  We have seen N036 fly a lot more than Zhuk, got more false equivalencies there Flanker?  Why not state that it is impossible to build such a radar in Russia while they are still using T-72 tanks?

    Problem i see here is alot of attempt of Leap of Faith by hyping stuff that are still in research or development. Quantum radar. yes.. does it make stealth fails ? Really ? Without even a single grain of explanation on how that fucking things work. Plus it's not a secret that the science behind it are still in infacy.

    My point is that Zhuk story can happen. and i believe we all must be aware of that and remain on the earth.

    As I said, you have zero idea.

    Like I said, no Zhuk a as there are no order for MiG-35's.

    Get that through your thick skull.

    Plus we know that Rostec opened two whole facilities for Rofar. PLUS, it was Bondarev who said it will have flying prototype by 2021.

    And it will be tested on Su-35 actually.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:08 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I'm going to put this nonsense from people like flanker to rest:

    But but but Zhuk A? We're is it? Roosia too stupid to make AESA.

    Answer: because no MiGs for Russia. See how many MiG-35'd they ordered? 6 total. And to be used for acrobatics. Lol. Mikoyan jets are not needed beyond interceptor MiG-31.

    Russia has years of experience in making AESA. Nebo SVU is AESA as example. Pantsir S2 radar is also AESA. As I said before, Istok made thousands of modules already. Tens of thousands. Us, N036 is in much wider use. It may have something to do with Su-57 going to actually be fielded unlike MiG-35?

    Zhuk radar has never been on a Sukhoi.

    There, happy? Good. Now take false equivalency elsewhere.

    and take away your ROFAR dream keep it for at least decade from now.

    MikeTheTerrible wrote:As I said, you have zero idea.

    Like I said, no Zhuk a as there are no order for MiG-35's.

    Get that through your thick skull.

    Too bad you seem to not taking my point is it.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:33 pm

    yeah, keep saying it. We all know you will just keep pushing false equivalencies like Zhuk Radar even though I already explained because no one wants expensive MiG-35 with AESA when its capabilities are lot less than that of Su-30SM with even PESA radar.

    As I pointed out, AESA is in wide use in Russia. And GaN modules already made even for 5G networks.

    But what the hell do I know, right?
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:25 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Well this is kinda hard to believe. Given the infacy of quantum radar technology. Research does exist yes, but no prototype so far.  Remember the Zhuk AE Saga... and we haven't see any serial production and this is a mature product which supposedly ready for flight.
    As a complete outsider my common sense tells me this should be way further in the future than 2021-22, that is why I say it would be a massive capability surprise for US. But again, we know little about strategic Russian developments until they decide to disclose it. They may have been working on it since Cold War days. BTW, as far as I understand it ROFAR is not a quantum radar is it?

    The question is not in detection but will you spent your precious RVV-SD warload on an AAM, especially it's AMRAAM which basically same price and same size.  Might be wasteful use of AAM.

    The Active system idea is attractive with some example developed for helicopter but a question can be asked whether the plane will have the space to carry the required number or whether the interceptors can be made small enough. Large aircrafts like AEW might have space but fighter aircraft would need to be built from the ground with that system in mind.  Upgrade older aircraft with it may pose challenge mainly to ensure safe separation of the interceptor munitions and to ensure the protection system does not eat up space or pylons.  
    Well, if you risk being shot down I guess you will prefer using your MRAAMs even when it means ending your mission there. The willingness to use your AAM on other missiles can be very different for (just to put an example) a F-35 on a strike mission with 2 x JDAM + 2 x AMRAAM or for a Su-35 with A2A load of 10 missiles.

    As for the interceptors, current efforts apparently are focused on creating small missiles that can be carried in big numbers. As Garry pointed our, cost of electronics decrease and with scale comes a further reduction of prices. So it makes sense to make more, smaller missiles for self defence. Do not see any fundamental obstacle to create containers for this smaller missiles and place them on older planes. It will always take space and weight so probably will limit the payload destined to attack, but that should not be a huge deal if it allows to perform missions you would not be capable of otherwise.

    Of course, big amounts of interceptors and DEW together open a whole new array of possibilities for bigger aircraft to be survivable, will be very interesting to see the fight between offensive and defensive means in the next years.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Well this is kinda hard to believe. Given the infacy of quantum radar technology. Research does exist yes, but no prototype so far.  Remember the Zhuk AE Saga... and we haven't see any serial production and this is a mature product which supposedly ready for flight.
    As a complete outsider my common sense tells me this should be way further in the future than 2021-22, that is why I say it would be a massive capability surprise for US. But again, we know little about strategic Russian developments until they decide to disclose it. They may have been working on it since Cold War days. BTW, as far as I understand it ROFAR is not a quantum radar is it?

    The question is not in detection but will you spent your precious RVV-SD warload on an AAM, especially it's AMRAAM which basically same price and same size.  Might be wasteful use of AAM.

    The Active system idea is attractive with some example developed for helicopter but a question can be asked whether the plane will have the space to carry the required number or whether the interceptors can be made small enough. Large aircrafts like AEW might have space but fighter aircraft would need to be built from the ground with that system in mind.  Upgrade older aircraft with it may pose challenge mainly to ensure safe separation of the interceptor munitions and to ensure the protection system does not eat up space or pylons.  
    Well, if you risk being shot down I guess you will prefer using your MRAAMs even when it means ending your mission there. The willingness to use your AAM on other missiles can be very different for (just to put an example) a F-35 on a strike mission with 2 x JDAM + 2 x AMRAAM or for a Su-35 with A2A load of 10 missiles.

    As for the interceptors, current efforts apparently are focused on creating small missiles that can be carried in big numbers. As Garry pointed our, cost of electronics decrease and with scale comes a further reduction of prices. So it makes sense to make more, smaller missiles for self defence. Do not see any fundamental obstacle to create containers for this smaller missiles and place them on older planes. It will always take space and weight so probably will limit the payload destined to attack, but that should not be a huge deal if it allows to perform missions you would not be capable of otherwise.

    Of course, big amounts of interceptors and DEW together open a whole new array of possibilities for bigger aircraft to be survivable, will be very interesting to see the fight between offensive and defensive means in the next years.

    Its Photonic. Which can be also called Quantum radar. But they may not necessarily mean the same. Radiophotonics is something Russia has indeed been working on a long time. But it has improved under Rostec when they created the TP "microwave technology" group which takes the best of Rostec assets including Ruselectronics assets, and they concentrate on development in the field of technology of Photonics and various other tech (GaN modules (Seems GaAS modules may have taken a back seat over GaN but GaN is done by Voronezh scientific institution rather than NPP ISTOK which does GaAS), high voltage MOSFETS, Lithography technology, etc).
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:32 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:yeah, keep saying it.  We all know you will just keep pushing false equivalencies like Zhuk Radar even though I already explained because no one wants expensive MiG-35 with AESA when its capabilities are lot less than that of Su-30SM with even PESA radar.

    As I pointed out, AESA is in wide use in Russia.  And GaN modules already made even for 5G networks.

    But what the hell do I know, right?

    Actually last zhuk aesa for mig is only 100kg and can see at 260km while first ones were in the range of 130-140km in range. The technology already exists. The use is non sense as it is not suited for sukhois and mig-29/35 are done with russian ir force. Maybe they will use the tech for improving mig-31 but even mig-31 uses a radar from another company than zhuk.

    Rafale and typhoon which are in the same class have radars with 200km in range
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:43 pm

    Zaslon radar's ownership is through Phazotron which makes the Zhuk radars.  But there is little interest in making the AESA radar for the MiG-31 simply because MiG-31 is an interceptor aimed at hitting larger targets and missiles from long ranges, and not trying to stealthily search and track targets (this is a big lol as it really doesn't work well with LPI mode as it uses too little of power to get a proper reflection back worth a damn and most modern sensors that can pick up radiation will identify such signal.  Maybe not as well though).  MiG-29 series is done in Russia.  There wont be MiG-35 in any numbers at all.  This 6 orders was just to keep Mikoyan afloat till they decide what to do with it or to help fund further development of the next projects (MiG-41, UCAV, etc).  But while Sokol plant has some work ahead of them with Yak-130, Mikoyan itself is more or less a done company.  And yes, their Zhuk radars are not suitable for anything else at the moment besides possibly making small radar for the Yak-130 and UAV's.  Phazotron is already merged with Rostec as with Tikhomirov NIIP which means that Rostec can decide what to do with the assets and I imagine Tikhomirov will eventually merge completely with Phazotron and the whole Zhuk and what not line will be removed for something else.  That would make sense.

    The whole purpose of the Zhuk-A series radars was to gain attraction by the government and foreign entities for their MiG fighter jets. Ended up being a bust not because of the radar but overall because what you get in the end is a jet that is still expensive, with performance still lacking compared to its competitor Sukhoi in both their Su-35 and Su-30SM. Yes, its latest iteration tested AESA radar Zhuk-AM had a range of 260km. Cool. Issue though is that it is still behind the competition from Sukhoi and Tikhomirov with their BARS line of radars. Even more so with the N036 radar being tested and used currently on Su-57 prototypes and pre-production models.

    What also adds insult to injury is that Mikoyan has lost most of its foreign customer base. Most of the nations using MiG-29's are looking to replace them with Sukhois or other big aircrafts of competitors (F-18's, F-15's, etc) and the nations that do have MiG-29's and plan to keep them (Egypt, Syria, India, Algeria, Serbia, etc) do not have the money to upgrade them as it would be very expensive or they too have unknown prospects in the future for their fleet of MiG-29's (well, exclude Egypt and Serbia as they just received their MiG-29's). Most to all MiG-29's in Russia are to be replaced eventually.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:11 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Its Photonic.  Which can be also called Quantum radar.  But they may not necessarily mean the same.  Radiophotonics is something Russia has indeed been working on a long time.  But it has improved under Rostec when they created the TP "microwave technology" group which takes the best of Rostec assets including Ruselectronics assets, and they concentrate on development in the field of technology of Photonics and various other tech (GaN modules (Seems GaAS modules may have taken a back seat over GaN but GaN is done by Voronezh scientific institution rather than NPP ISTOK which does GaAS), high voltage MOSFETS, Lithography technology, etc).
    Mmmm... I understand the ROFAR is based on using photonics for processing the signal, in order to get much bigger bandwidth and sensitivity, while quantum radar would based on an esoteric quantum phenomenon called entanglement.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:56 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    As a complete outsider my common sense tells me this should be way further in the future than 2021-22, that is why I say it would be a massive capability surprise for US. But again, we know little about strategic Russian developments until they decide to disclose it. They may have been working on it since Cold War days. BTW, as far as I understand it ROFAR is not a quantum radar is it?

    From what were available There are 2 interpretations

    1. It is a quantum radar
    2. It is a True Time Delay photonic phased array. This kind of phased array address bandwidth limitations of conventional phase shifter as magnetic device like what currently use in phased arrays does limit usable frequencies. With true time delay. In theory you can fully utilize the available frequencies assigned to your radar in other words only limited by your element spacing.

    Implementations however is difficult as currently it requires fiber optics of various length for each module. Hybrid implementation is possible but so far no real radar is being made for it.

    The range ? Of course the same physics as regular radar. Only the frequency bandwidth increased. But then that is not pretty much whatever the hype is.


    Well, if you risk being shot down I guess you will prefer using your MRAAMs even when it means ending your mission there. The willingness to use your AAM on other missiles can be very different for (just to put an example) a F-35 on a strike mission with 2 x JDAM + 2 x AMRAAM or for a Su-35 with A2A load of 10 missiles.

    Still you're wasting missiles.


    As for the interceptors, current efforts apparently are focused on creating small missiles that can be carried in big numbers. As Garry pointed our, cost of electronics decrease and with scale comes a further reduction of prices. So it makes sense to make more, smaller missiles for self defence. Do not see any fundamental obstacle to create containers for this smaller missiles and place them on older planes. It will always take space and weight so probably will limit the payload destined to attack, but that should not be a huge deal if it allows to perform missions you would not be capable of otherwise.

    Of course, big amounts of interceptors and DEW together open a whole new array of possibilities for bigger aircraft to be survivable, will be very interesting to see the fight between offensive and defensive means in the next years.

    There is of course a limit on how small and the smaller it gets.. the more expensive it can be. How can be so ? Guidance package. Plus there will be limit on how small it can be made by the required performance.

    If you desire multiple target capability, you will need seeker inside. This seeker can cost alot, especially if its radar (Desire for all weather capability) The higher frequency used (for resolution, you dont want X-band for missile probably smaller than coke bottle..) The more expensive it gets due to the required precision equipment to make the antenna and transmitter. AESA seeker will only make it worse. Thus why there are no real AESA seeker works in mm wave band. you can get economic of scale but.. i wonder how much.

    If one desire Command guidance, then a sensor must be used. This sensor will seek target and provide guidance for the missile. Problem is of course the weight and size of the sensor and whether one can provide power. and how many target channels can be made available.
    This will constrain the coverage, unless the protective sensor can "talk" and use the plane's radar or other aperture... This might necessitating plane to be build with the sensor in mind.

    In short.. need a new plane.

    In the other hand. Jamming technology are still relevant. We all know that current radar still use monopulse to derive target angle. This can be exploited and in fact exploited heavily by Russia with the advent of Cross eye jammers like Sorbitsya and tarantul. Those are still effective. Towed decoy also works for supposedly small warhead AMRAAM. See if Su-57 can have it.

    But for active hard-kill munitions.. kinda hard.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:00 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:yeah, keep saying it.  We all know you will just keep pushing false equivalencies like Zhuk Radar even though I already explained because no one wants expensive MiG-35 with AESA when its capabilities are lot less than that of Su-30SM with even PESA radar.

    As I pointed out, AESA is in wide use in Russia.  And GaN modules already made even for 5G networks.

    But what the hell do I know, right?

    and you keep insist on remaining out of the loop i see. My problem is people hyping up ROFAR which is.. not very helpful. I brought Zhuk story as example on what could happen on development.

    I never say anything on Russia cant make AESA radar.....
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:26 pm

    Lets try this example: F-35 vs. Su-35. F-35 fires one AIM-120 at the Su-35. The Su-35 fires one R-77-1 against the F-35 and another against the incoming AIM-120. I wouldn´t call this a waste of a missile.

    Also the russian air force tested the use of AAM´s against AAM´s in the 80´s and 90´s. One jet fired a missile and the other destroyed it with one of his.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:38 pm

    Hole wrote:Lets try this example: F-35 vs. Su-35. F-35 fires one AIM-120 at the Su-35. The Su-35 fires one R-77-1 against the F-35 and another against the incoming AIM-120. I wouldn´t call this a waste of a missile.

    Also the russian air force tested the use of AAM´s against AAM´s in the 80´s and 90´s. One jet fired a missile and the other destroyed it with one of his.

    How about more enlightnening example of use of Cross eye jammer against the AMRAAM so the Su-35 can take 2 F-35 with 2 R-77's

    Those pods on wingtips have meanings guys. They reduce number of R-73 that can be carried but those pods can handle almost unlimited number of ARH missiles. and they can be brought back in. Available today.



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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:03 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:How about more enlightnening example of use of Cross eye jammer against the AMRAAM so the Su-35 can take 2 F-35 with 2 R-77's

    Those pods on wingtips have meanings guys. They reduce number of R-73 that can be carried but those pods can handle almost unlimited number of ARH missiles. and they can be brought back in. Available today.
    No doubt they play a big role, but in case they fail you want a B plan. My question: at what point of the attack would you decide to switch from jamming to hard kill?
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    No doubt they play a big role, but in case they fail you want a B plan. My question: at what point of the attack would you decide to switch from jamming to hard kill?

    When you can be sure that you cannot kinematically evade the missile. Or destroy the opponent before they can shoot.

    This however can bring a point of using hardkill to engage nowdays's lethal dogfight missile. These dogfight missiles typically capable of 60G turns especially at close range. The dogfight can typically be as close as 300m or less or like 1-2 km. and well one may not as lucky that their flare works.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:14 am

    The question is not in detection but will you spent your precious RVV-SD warload on an AAM, especially it's AMRAAM which basically same price and same size. Might be wasteful use of AAM.

    Well for an Su-35 carrying 12 missiles against an F-22 with 6 that might work out OK... if the Su-35 or Su-57 can negate western missiles and it comes down to a dogfight then they will be grinning...

    Yeah. so how about being real and stop relating ROFAR thing with Su-57 as we know that the radar wont be flying for maybe years or decades.

    They have said they expect it to be on the Su-57 in 2024 as a working system...

    Answer: because no MiGs for Russia. See how many MiG-35'd they ordered? 6 total. And to be used for acrobatics. Lol. Mikoyan jets are not needed beyond interceptor MiG-31.

    They are going to be buying more than 6.... just like they are going to be buying more than 12 Su-57s.

    Russia has years of experience in making AESA. Nebo SVU is AESA as example. Pantsir S2 radar is also AESA. As I said before, Istok made thousands of modules already. Tens of thousands. Us, N036 is in much wider use. It may have something to do with Su-57 going to actually be fielded unlike MiG-35?

    Russia has almost 4 decades experience with PESA, but little experience with AESA radars in a fighter aircraft.

    Right now their main experience is with PESA, but they are smart... the problem for them is that while they are getting rather more out of PESA than the west ever got, they are now moving on to AESA, but they also have other options in the mix like photonic radar. Photonic radar might benefit from experience with AESA to make it even better, or it might not make any difference at all... they might know but we really don't.

    The simple fact is that they will likely have rather competitive radars when they enter service and if something even better is developed they will likely get that too eventually.

    Like I said, no Zhuk a as there are no order for MiG-35's.

    Get that through your thick skull.

    What do you think MiG-35s will be equipped with in service?

    They have bought 6 but do you think that is all they will buy?

    and take away your ROFAR dream keep it for at least decade from now.

    Even if it did take a decade... to render the F-22, F-35, and the B-2 totally vulnerable would be totally worth it...

    As a complete outsider my common sense tells me this should be way further in the future than 2021-22

    That that is because you haven't known anything about it for however long they have been working on it...

    I mean all the new weapons they revealed recently are near deployment stage before they were revealed but development started in 2002 when the US withdrew from the ABM treaty...

    Russia has been trying to catch up in electronics... why wouldn't they fund generational systems that leapfrog existing technologies in an attempt to not just catch up but even take the lead... sounds exactly like something Putin would do... while everyone either calls him weak, or the all powerful puppet master that decides every election everywhere...

    The use is non sense as it is not suited for sukhois and mig-29/35 are done with russian ir force.

    You might want to tell MiG that because they are getting ready to mass produce the plane for the Russian Air Force and foreign air forces...

    There wont be MiG-35 in any numbers at all. This 6 orders was just to keep Mikoyan afloat till they decide what to do with it or to help fund further development of the next projects

    The Russian Air Force is not a charity... only buying 6 planes would make them enormously expensive to own and to operate... it would just not make any sense at all.

    Mikoyan itself is more or less a done company.
    Of course it is... Mikoyan has never been a company... MiG on the other hand is part of UAC and is going nowhere... it has drones to make, and MiG-35s and of course MIG-31s to keep in service till the MiG-41 is ready... and of course it will be joint developing a light 5th gen fighter with the UAE...

    The whole purpose of the Zhuk-A series radars was to gain attraction by the government and foreign entities for their MiG fighter jets. Ended up being a bust not because of the radar but overall because what you get in the end is a jet that is still expensive, with performance still lacking compared to its competitor Sukhoi in both their Su-35 and Su-30SM. Yes, its latest iteration tested AESA radar Zhuk-AM had a range of 260km. Cool. Issue though is that it is still behind the competition from Sukhoi and Tikhomirov with their BARS line of radars. Even more so with the N036 radar being tested and used currently on Su-57 prototypes and pre-production models.

    You seem to be under the impression that an AESA is easy to make and everyone has them.

    Couple of facts for you... 1)there are no operational Russian AESA radars in fighters yet.
    2)AESA radars are pretty much the transmit and receive parts of a normal radar... but it is an array of thousands of them, so they are fucking expensive.
    3) mass production reduces the price over time and makes them easier and cheaper to make, but you have to make millions and millions of modules before you get to that place... Russia is developing all the necessary technology but simply is not there yet... it is like UAVs... you either spend lots of money and buy the technology or you spend a whole lot more money plus huge amounted of time to get actual experience and develop them yourself... and no one is selling Russia AESA technology.

    4)it is not the end of the world because Russian PESA radars are actually rather capable systems and the technology they are working with will either make excellent conventional AESAs, or mind blowingly amazing next gen radar... and possibly both.

    Most to all MiG-29's in Russia are to be replaced eventually.

    Likely eventually replaced with MiG-35s.

    Still you're wasting missiles.

    That is like saying TOR and Pantsir is stupid because having little short range missiles to defend SAM bases wastes missiles... you don't fire them at nothing... you fire them at actual threats that are about to destroy you... I would say missile well spent.

    There is of course a limit on how small and the smaller it gets.. the more expensive it can be. How can be so ? Guidance package. Plus there will be limit on how small it can be made by the required performance.

    They are in an aircraft and don't need excessive range... a MANPAD with thrust vectoring rocket motor, and IIR sensor, a datalink and a small proximity fuse warhead... they could be 12 kgs each and carried in bundles of 10 or more... half the length of a normal MANPAD...

    But for active hard-kill munitions.. kinda hard.

    You mentioned jamming, and towed decoys, but also DIRCMS, and why not self defence missiles... and in fact self defence missiles with jammers in them for use against home on jam mode missiles?

    Lets try this example: F-35 vs. Su-35. F-35 fires one AIM-120 at the Su-35. The Su-35 fires one R-77-1 against the F-35 and another against the incoming AIM-120. I wouldn´t call this a waste of a missile.

    Or an Su-35 is under attack from a ground based Patriot system... the Su-35 launches an AS-11 of the new model and Patriot fires back... the Su-35 could fire an R-77 to try to shoot down the Patriot missile or just hope their AS-11 hits first... I would want to defend myself... but the point is that the self defence missiles are small short range missiles so you might have three of these missiles on a pylon you would normally carry an R-77 on.

    It will have thrust vectoring rocket flight control so it wont need a lot of control fins or strakes so you could likely bundle a few together...

    How about more enlightnening example of use of Cross eye jammer against the AMRAAM so the Su-35 can take 2 F-35 with 2 R-77's

    Indeed that might work too... but if the AMRAAM goes into home on jam mode and starts turning towards the Su-35 instead of off into the sunset wouldn't it be nice to have a missile you could use to stop that threat?

    It will be doing the same job in the Russian Navy on board Russian ships... ie shooting down incoming missile threats... so it is not like you are just using it for that...

    Those pods on wingtips have meanings guys. They reduce number of R-73 that can be carried but those pods can handle almost unlimited number of ARH missiles. and they can be brought back in. Available today.

    But what if you are flying escort for another aircraft and your jammers make the missile stop tracking you but start tracking the aircraft you are escorting?

    Shoot it down then?

    These are standard missiles that have the capability to hit other missiles... the R-77 is a BVR missile and the R-7? is the new short range dogfight missile...

    No doubt they play a big role, but in case they fail you want a B plan. My question: at what point of the attack would you decide to switch from jamming to hard kill?

    Su-35 has automatic self defence ESM suite... it will likely decide.

    If it was fitted to the Il-22 and it was carrying R-77s or Morfeis then they might have detected the incoming S-200 and shot that down too...

    When you can be sure that you cannot kinematically evade the missile. Or destroy the opponent before they can shoot.

    Bombers, troop transports, Elint platforms, AWACS, MPAs, and a host of other types would never be able to evade an incoming missile... WVR or BVR... such defensive missiles might be their only hope... whether they shoot down the incoming missile or decoy it away with a jamming signal...

    PTURBG

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  PTURBG on Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:42 pm

    Speaking of the morfei, why is there no news from it in the last 6 years?


    The Su-57 might use the K-MD, an 80km range IR missile to replace the R-74, but nothing has been heard from it since 2015.


    Also, making different design bureaus specialize and have a monopoly in a specific type of aircraft is a recipe for failure, as shown in Lockheed's monopoly on procuring fighter aircraft(The boeing X-32 was only a testbed for drone technology, which Boeing has a monopoly in).


    MiG should be making 5th gen fighters, and sukhoi should, in a perfect scenario, design a prototype competitor for the PAK-DP competition.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:59 am

    PTURBG wrote:Speaking of the morfei, why is there no news from it in the last 6 years?


    The Su-57 might use the K-MD, an 80km range IR missile to replace the R-74, but nothing has been heard from it since 2015.


    Also, making different design bureaus specialize and have a monopoly in a specific type of aircraft is a recipe for failure, as shown in Lockheed's monopoly on procuring fighter aircraft(The boeing X-32 was only a testbed for drone technology, which Boeing has a monopoly in).


    MiG should be making 5th gen fighters, and sukhoi should, in a perfect scenario, design a prototype competitor for the PAK-DP competition.
    From what I know the SRAAM for the Su-57 was expected to be the K-74M2. Not much has been heard about it, but also not much was heard about the Kh-59MK2 for a long while and then MoD surprised us with some nice pictures of launching from internal bays. So many flights and years of testing surely aren't for nothing.

    In Russian MIC I guess the competence among design bureaus is not like in US one. In the end all companies belong the state through UAC. All design bureaus compete to a certain extent and cooperate also if needed. For all big programs as far as I know (I stand to be corrected please) several companies present their proposals. That ensures an honest effort from the main bureau in the involved field (fighters or bombers or whatever). But I agree that MiG is a fighter company, it is not clear for me what specialty within UAC could match them other than being a "competitor" of Sukhoi. Not much more has transpired about the supposed integration of both companies either.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:01 am

    Normally no news is good news... in the late 1980s the Mi-28s design was revealed and it was sent to the Paris Air Show to try to get sales, because the Ka-50 had been chosen to replace the Mi-24 as the armed attack helo of Russia.

    Of course the requirements were changed which muddled the results, but the design specs for the Morfei were rather ambitious, so a real delay in their introduction is to be expected.

    The new missiles for the Su-57 sound like just upgraded versions of existing missiles... ie R-74 is a better R-73, and the R-77 with triangular fins is just a less agile R-77, while the R-37M is supposed to be Su-57 compatible, but talk of real new missiles with TVC rocket motors that enable greatly enhanced flight performance and reduced external control surfaces (and reduced drag) along with mixed sensor seekers able to take on a wide range of threats...

    It should be interesting... if Morfei can be made small enough it might be loaded into rocket pod like structures for attack aircraft and helicopters and UAVs... or indeed AWACS airships... Twisted Evil

    The R-74 was supposed to be a TVC variant of the R-73... which faked TVC by pushing a plate into the rocket exhaust to allow extreme turns upon launch, with an IIR seeker, but AFAIK was still a 100kg+ missile.

    The Morfei was supposed to be a much smaller weapon intended to be widely used on aircraft for self defence... much the same as the R-60, but much more capable, but also by ground forces to replace the OSA and Strela-10M (SA-8 and SA-13) as well as a CIWS self defence missile.

    On one thread however there is a picture of the 9M100 with an ARH seeker instead of IIR...
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:21 pm

    Interview to Bondarev about the Su-57

    https://rg.ru/2018/10/16/istrebitel-su-57-na-ispytaniiah-prevzoshel-luchshie-amerikanskie-analogi.html
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 am

    Su-57 by Artyom Anikeev, October 2018
    https://russianplanes.net/id239689



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    dino00

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  dino00 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:44 am

    Su-57 will be able to land on ultrashort lanes and aircraft carriers

    One of the conditions outlined in the technical specifications for the Su-57 fighter was the possibility of its take-off and landing on the shortened lane.

    The new Su-57’s mileage will be two times shorter than that of the Su-35, which allows it to be used from short lanes without special devices. This was announced by Mikhail Strelets, Chief Designer-Director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, in a new release of the Military Acceptance program to the film crew of the Zvezda TV channel.

    The plane must land on a shortened lane without special means <...> I can’t give exact figures, because this is a secret thing, but they are two times smaller than those of the Su-35,” said Sagittarius.

    It is worth noting that on the model of the Russian aircraft carrier of the future, which was presented at a number of military exhibitions, Su-57 was designated as aircraft

    The ability to take off and land on shortened lanes is also necessary so that the aircraft can be used from aerodromes damaged during the fighting.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811081115-769z.htm
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:42 pm

    Wings being tested hardly on testbed.

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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:45 am

    dino00 wrote:Su-57 will be able to land on ultrashort lanes and aircraft carriers

    One of the conditions outlined in the technical specifications for the Su-57 fighter was the possibility of its take-off and landing on the shortened lane.

    The new Su-57’s mileage will be two times shorter than that of the Su-35, which allows it to be used from short lanes without special devices. This was announced by Mikhail Strelets, Chief Designer-Director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, in a new release of the Military Acceptance program to the film crew of the Zvezda TV channel.

    The plane must land on a shortened lane without special means <...> I can’t give exact figures, because this is a secret thing, but they are two times smaller than those of the Su-35,” said Sagittarius.

    It is worth noting that on the model of the Russian aircraft carrier of the future, which was presented at a number of military exhibitions, Su-57 was designated as aircraft

    The ability to take off and land on shortened lanes is also necessary so that the aircraft can be used from aerodromes damaged during the fighting.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811081115-769z.htm

    Amazing news, and hats-off to eehnie for correctly picking this up, this is a real breakthrough. Half the distance of the Su-35 would mean 300-350 m landing distance. Any ideas how they achieve this? Maybe they managed a really low minimum speed to start with, which would be the best also to minimize the stress to the airframe during landing. And hence reduce the extra weight needed for a naval version. Will be very interesting to understand how this is done and all the possibilities it opens up.

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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:30 am

    Maybe reverse thrust like on civilian planes. With such powerful engines it would stop the su-57 pretty easily in 300m.

    Even su-27 has a very low minimal speed. Su-57 should be even better thanks to its big surface.

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