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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

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    Isos

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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:58 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    As a Russian general said "if US wants to test us, we can prove to them how stealthy their jets really are".

    They are not stealth to kalibr missile ...many here think in a war it is f-22 against su-57, yassen against vieginia, kalirb against tomahawk ....

    The reality is destroy the more by any means. A good sniper can destroy some f-22 on the ground.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:32 pm

    It's not just that. Stealth isn't stealth against VHF or UHF band as they light up like a Christmas tree on radar. Add in passive sensors like radiation detection if stealth jet using radar to triangulate position of enemy, or IRST system.

    Regardless, getting a low observable, cheaper and overall very agile fighter is better imo.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:34 pm

    havok wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I remember in the 1980s the US boasting that the radar on their AEGIS class cruisers were so amazing that they could count the engine blades of a target and identify the type of aircraft just from the radar return...
    That is technically true and proven many times over...

    https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8121117/


    GarryB wrote:I actually believed them at the time but then they shot down an iranian airbus...
    But only if the radar is looking directly at the engine, front or rear.

    GarryB wrote:But why would we assume the Russians know anything about Physics or design.
    We could assume the Russians knows a great deal. Too bad they ain't got the money to execute what they know.

    Face reality. The 57 is good design, only that it is not good enough.
    You pathetic fucking moron. It is way better than the F-35 just by capability as we can see and better than the F-22.


    If Germany built the su 57 the thing would be praised to high heaven.

    Tell me one thing that is better on the F-22 other than the rear stealth ? The su 57 has fully composite all moving vertical stabilizers at the back. So even the back is better in general
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:37 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Not good enough by who's standards? And not enough money? The Russians are pumping out trillions of Rubles for their defence purchases. Su-57 no exception.

    As a Russian general said "if US wants to test us, we can prove to them how stealthy their jets really are".

    Not good enough according to Business Insider. That's what. Everything that's been said about the su 57 is bullshit, once you dig a little deeper.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:42 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:Tell me one thing that is better on the F-22 other than the rear stealth ? The su 57 has fully composite all moving vertical stabilizers at the back. So even the back is better in general

    Su-57 isn't anything. There's like 10 or 12 of them, prototypes and basically this thing isn't operational and can't go to war.
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    Militarov

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:43 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:Tell me one thing that is better on the F-22 other than the rear stealth ? The su 57 has fully composite all moving vertical stabilizers at the back. So even the back is better in general

    Su-57 isn't anything. There's like 10 or 12 of them, prototypes and basically this thing isn't operational and can't go to war.

    But its better in its back than F-22 judging by experts.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:47 pm

    Imagine the F-22 had vertical stabs that were half the size of 4th gen ones, were made of composite material and were all-moving & doubled as the air brake
    And then imagine that the su 57 had 4th gen sized verticals, made of metal with only the leading edge movable ?
    Which jet would be "not advanced enough" ?

    It's unreal how the kool aid drinking myths about how great the F-22 is, migrate their way over to forums like this. It's the madness of crowds. Right now, the crowd is dissing the su 57, that's the cool place to be. Regardless of the facts.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:56 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:Su-57 isn't anything. There's like 10 or 12 of them, prototypes and basically this thing isn't operational and can't go to war.

    That is why it's not on this cover either:

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    I actually wonder was a Su-57 supposed to be there originally (there's space between those American fighters, sort of), but they removed it at the last minute, with the "cancellation" of the program (and yes, I know that's total nonsense).

    They (HATOstani, MSM, whatever...) are really trashing the Su-57 for all it's worth right now. Mostly undeserved of course, but at the same time inevitable with those delays.

    You don't change the initial order of 60 planes by the end 2020 to 12 (maybe, possibly, or is that 12 by 2023?), while talking BS about "unnecessary mass production" and "upcoming 6th generation fighters". Don't do that. Any of that. Terrible PR, and no one but the most clueless fanboys are going to believe it.  

    How quickly things change. I don't want to rub it in, but their China coverage is actually improving, slowly...

    Shouldn't Russia also order additional Su-35s instead? That's what they keep talking about, Su-35 being good enough and all that. I mean additional orders with the money they "save"? So "easily" 160 Su-35s instead of 100 by 2021. Can't manufacture enough of them? After all, around half of the annual Su-35 production is for export atm.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:51 am

    But the J-20 is? A jet that barely flies, has a few in service, passed "trials" in very very short time, was spotted by Su-30MKI over Tibet?

    Keep talking, cause you guys sound like retards.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:06 am

    Kimppis wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Su-57 isn't anything. There's like 10 or 12 of them, prototypes and basically this thing isn't operational and can't go to war.

    That is why it's not on this cover either:

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:[img]httpg]

    I actually wonder was a Su-57 supposed to be there originally (there's space between those American fighters, sort of), but they removed it at the last minute, with the "cancellation" of the program (and yes, I know that's total nonsense).

    They (HATOstani, MSM, whatever...) are really trashing the Su-57 for all it's worth right now. Mostly undeserved of course, but at the same time inevitable with those delays.

    You don't change the initial order of 60 planes by the end 2020 to 12 (maybe, possibly, or is that 12 by 2023?), while talking BS about "unnecessary mass production" and "upcoming 6th generation fighters". Don't do that. Any of that. Terrible PR, and no one but the most clueless fanboys are going to believe it.  

    How quickly things change. I don't want to rub it in, but their China coverage is actually improving, slowly...

    Shouldn't Russia also order additional Su-35s instead? That's what they keep talking about, Su-35 being good enough and all that. I mean additional orders with the money they "save"? So "easily" 160 Su-35s instead of 100 by 2021. Can't manufacture enough of them? After all, around half of the annual Su-35 production is for export atm.

    Who would be dumb enough to take anything out of the fact that it didn't make the cover of a random magazine ? I hope you aren't that dumb.

    But I think whats happening with this cover is the madness of crowds. It is hip today, to diss the su 57. What happens almost every time with the madness of crowds is the crowd is always wrong. One day , it will probably come out definitively , that the su 57 has best in class frontal stealth.

    No NATO or US official has ever said that they are not dealing with a stealth aircraft from Russia in the su 57. This is just a stupid f--ing hype from the dopey western defense media. I think deep down, they know its better. And that's what these spazms are about.


    Last edited by Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:11 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:Tell me one thing that is better on the F-22 other than the rear stealth ? The su 57 has fully composite all moving vertical stabilizers at the back. So even the back is better in general

    Su-57 isn't anything. There's like 10 or 12 of them, prototypes and basically this thing isn't operational and can't go to war.

    Russia already explained why they don't need it in big numbers yet. It will be years before the bugs are worked out of the F-35 and its a piece of shit even in full working order. The F-22 is a F-15 with LO features, is discontinued, is not being modernized and is only 40% available.


    F-35 pilots better hope Russia doesn't mass produce it yet.




    ^This is what the western media and some f-tards on this forum are calling a failed jet that's not good enough.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:16 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:F-35 pilots better hope Russia doesn't mass produce it yet.

    I'm sorry Russians themselves put it on hold. So there's nothing to hope for F-35 pilots, RuAF shot themselves on the foot.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:17 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:F-35 pilots better hope Russia doesn't mass produce it yet.

    I'm sorry Russians themselves put it on hold. So there's nothing to hope for F-35 pilots, RuAF shot themselves on the foot.

    Sorry dumbass, it isn't on hold.

    Keep up with your bullshit. Really shows the true quality of this forums.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:48 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:F-35 pilots better hope Russia doesn't mass produce it yet.

    I'm sorry Russians themselves put it on hold. So there's nothing to hope for F-35 pilots, RuAF shot themselves on the foot.

    How many times do you need to be told ? Russia doesn't need it in big numbers yet. Certainly not to fight half baked bugged up F-35's and F-22's with 40% availability.

    Here it is from a non partisan source.

    from Military Watch magazine that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70750


    - The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

    -The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

    -Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

    -Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

    -Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.


    Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small su 57 fleet, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc that they will be cautious about challenging the Russian fleet openly - in Syria, Eastern Europe, the Pacific or elsewhere.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  LMFS on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:56 am

    It is absurd and self-defeating that even in this forum we keep buying and taking for granted the PR-oriented, hollow US arguments about the criticality of stealth for a modern fighter design, or about the Russian incapacity to field their 5G plane.

    So-called VLO is ineffective against modern IADs. PAK-FA is several steps ahead of both F-22 and F-35 in most relevant parameters. First batch has been ordered and 2nd stage engine progresses steadily. And yet we keep foolishly accepting for discussion any spurious issue that may be used to put the fighter down. We should not allow to be controlled by such pathetic externally implanted ideas IMO
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:58 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:How many times do you need to be told ? Russia doesn't need it in big numbers yet. Certainly not to fight half baked bugged up F-35's and F-22's with 40% availability.

    lol1

    You can't be serious. Following your logic, the Soviets shouldn't have bothered with the MiG-15 because F-80 sucked and F-86A was facing issues.

    LMFS wrote:It is absurd and self-defeating that even in this forum we keep buying and taking for granted the PR-oriented, hollow US arguments about the criticality of stealth

    It's not about ''stealth''. They are not procuring any fighters in meaningful nubers, giving weak excuses. Meanwhile vintage Flankers are on their way out.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:32 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:How many times do you need to be told ? Russia doesn't need it in big numbers yet. Certainly not to fight half baked bugged up F-35's and F-22's with 40% availability.

    lol1

    You can't be serious. Following your logic, the Soviets shouldn't have bothered with the MiG-15 because F-80 sucked and F-86A was facing issues.

    LMFS wrote:It is absurd and self-defeating that even in this forum we keep buying and taking for granted the PR-oriented, hollow US arguments about the criticality of stealth

    It's not about ''stealth''. They are not procuring any fighters in meaningful nubers, giving weak excuses. Meanwhile vintage Flankers are on their way out.

    The backbone of the US air force and all naval aviation are F-15, F-16 and F-18's. 1970's designs. The F-22 is a glorified hanger queen.


    Flankers are a later model (80's) and its just a fact that they are more aerodynamically advanced than things like F-15's. Anyone with eyes can see that. Anyone with access to YouTube can see that too.





    F-15's really are creations of the early 70's. Boxy ugly fuckers. The Flanker looks graceful in comparison.

    So you are douching it up about Russia being behind on 5th gen production without acknowledging that Russia's 4th gens are newer than the US's.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:24 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:F-35 pilots better hope Russia doesn't mass produce it yet.

    I'm sorry Russians themselves put it on hold. So there's nothing to hope for F-35 pilots, RuAF shot themselves on the foot.

    Sorry dumbass, it isn't on hold.

    Keep up with your bullshit.  Really shows the true quality of this forums.

    You remind me Cartman in south park with you profil picture and the way you talk lol1 lol1 lol1 and its not an insult.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:14 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:But the J-20 is? A jet that barely flies, has a few in service, passed "trials" in very very short time, was spotted by Su-30MKI over Tibet?

    Keep talking, cause you guys sound like retards.

    And you base that BS on what?

    There are already atleast a few dozen of them in service. At this rate it will take Russia until the mid-20s to reach similar numbers.  

    You seriously believe those random Indian repots!? LMAO, by the same standards Su-57 sucks ass. After all, the Indians and their media is totally reliable.

    Also, all those rumours about the Chinese air combat exercises must be true as well. According to some forum posts, the J-20 totally dominated other (read: 4th generation) fighters, including Su-35s!... 20:0 kill ratios, shooting down AWACS, game over.

    American propaganda is very similar. Those must be totally true (note, if it isn't obvious enough: I have my doubts, to say the least).

    Regarding those 12 planes. Well, I hope we'll see 12 by the end of 2020, but that is not looking too good either. They need to hurry the fuck up.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:28 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:So you are douching it up about Russia being behind on 5th gen production without acknowledging that Russia's 4th gens are newer than the US's.

    USAF F-16C/D Block 50s were built way into late 90s and USN's F/A-18E/F well into mid '00s.
    Although I do acknowledge the F-15C/C Eagle is older than vintage Su-27s (by ~8 years or so), I hardly see how it counters my initial point. Russia is not building fighters in meaningful numbers anymore and delaying Su-57 isn't helping.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:45 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:So you are douching it up about Russia being behind on 5th gen production without acknowledging that Russia's 4th gens are newer than the US's.

    USAF F-16C/D Block 50s were built way into late 90s and USN's F/A-18E/F well into mid '00s.
    Although I do acknowledge the F-15C/C Eagle is older than vintage Su-27s (by ~8 years or so), I hardly see how it counters my initial point. Russia is not building fighters in meaningful numbers anymore and delaying Su-57 isn't helping.

    They got 100 su-30, almost 50 su-35, about 100 su-34 in matters of ten-fifteen years while european countries and china didn't get more than 100 new fighters in all and rafale and eurofighter are older than su-35 and started geting them first.

    Add another 100 ka-52 and 100 mi-28, this is huge.

    You claim is bullshit here.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:56 pm

    @kimpiss you dipshit. There as far as we know. all the J-20's we see are prototypes. Just like all the the su 57's we see. I can't believe you are that gullible. Last I checked China was buying more su 35's. Not J-20s.

    But hey nobody is keeping track of that program. Nobody seems to care. It's su 57 all the time at most of the big aviation forums. (there's 3-4 su 57 threads on F16.net. None on J20) Where's all the fuss about the old engines in the J20 ? Or the non stealth engine tips ? There is no fuss about anything because it just doesn't capture the interest like the su 57 does.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:04 pm

    Those insults again... Pathetic.

    They are not prototypes. And I can't believe you people keep repeating that BS. But whatever, keep believing that, it clearly makes you guys feel better.

    They are buying both. There are probably already more J-20s in active service than Su-35s by the end of 2020. China still has hundreds of J-7s and J-8 they need to replace. (Although they already have more 4th generation fighters than Russia anyway, because their fighter fleet is considerably larger, being a larger country and economy, and all that. TRIGGERED, right?)

    Regarding those forums, that is nonsense as well, and irrelevant. China is much more secretive about their military in general. Russia is also more followed in the West, the Russian-Western relations are worse, China is far away from Europe. The there's the language barrier, very few Chinese/China-focused posters on English-language forums. And don't you contradict yourself there a little bit? Previously you complained how China supposedly gets a free pass nowadays, that the Western propaganda only focuses on the Su-57 program. So now that's a good thing? Whatever...

    Isos wrote:They got 100 su-30, almost 50 su-35, about 100 su-34 in matters of ten-fifteen years while european countries and china didn't get more than 100 new fighters in all and rafale and eurofighter are older than su-35 and started geting them first.

    Add another 100 ka-52 and 100 mi-28, this is huge.

    You claim is bullshit here.

    Mostly agree. And aren't there already like 70 Su-35s and more than 100 Su-30s, etc.?

    But what is that "China didn't get more than 100 new fighters in all" supposed to mean!? You're only including the imported Su-30s or something? Very Happy (Of course...) They probably have almost 200 J-10B/Cs with PESAs and AESAs at this point (not to mention another 200 J-10As, which I think are getting upgraded, the airframes are obviously quite new), almost 100 J-16s and you should really include J-11Bs, J-15s, etc. as well.

    China's annual fighter production has been slightly higher than Russia's on average throughout the period, plus the fact that it was already at a modestly high level before the Russians (early to mid 2000s, instead of 2010s).

    But again, I'm done talking about China, don't worry.

    George1 wrote:Next time someone will insult will receive a temporary ban. Last warning for all

    Good. I edited my post and removed the term "fanboy", which I think is an insult, don't want to go down to that level. However, that is nothing compared to stuff from Pierre Sprey, miketheterrible and kvs.


    Last edited by Kimppis on Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:08 pm

    Next time someone will insult will receive a temporary ban. Last warning for all
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:19 am

    So now stealth is not anymore fundamental for US?

    And they are upgrading their F-15 while telling that Su-35 is a old generation plane and Su-57 is not advanced enough?...

    Ahahhaah


    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/07/looks-like-f-15-will-stick-around-for.html?m=1

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/07/heres-look-new-f-15x-boeing-pitching-us-air-force/150039/

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