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    Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

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    Austin
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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:03 am

    INF treaty was signed because of growing weapons in Europe that could target Moscow within a short time or rather the time was so short that Moscow would not be able to react , so though SU lost more in INF then US/Europe did it was still thought a good deal to keep edgy fingers calm.

    Backing out of INF will lead to same situation , infact they can still deal with Europe via 500 km range Iskander like system and air/sub launched cruise missile since INF does not restrict them , in future hypersonic missile would let them strike key C&C and Radar of ABM system if required to do so.

    Probably they will not end up in this and Europe and Russia will find a middle ground on ABM system.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:02 am

    The situation was that Western Missiles in Turkey could reach Moscow in 5 minutes so that meant Moscow had practically no time to make a decision as to whether it was a computer glitch or the start of a full scale attack designed to cut the head off the enemy.

    The missiles in question like LANCE II had a long range and high speed and excellent accuracy.

    Today however such a weapon could be shot down by S-400 and soon S-500 missiles as well as the ABM missiles around Moscow.

    Also the ability to command a full scale retaliation launch of Russian strategic weapons is much much quicker and easier now too, so there is no longer any need to limit Russian land based weapons to less than 500km or more than 5,500km.

    The point is that because of the INF treaty Russia can only have short range land based weapons or strategic weapons limited by START treaties with the US.

    With INF gone they can maintain their strategic weapons limits but those weapons can be reserved to use only on the US. They can build thousands... or however many shorter ranged missiles they need to cover targets in Europe and Asia that will not be limited by the START treaty.

    The US can react to this by moving theatre ballistic missiles to Russias borders, but even the S-300 system was designed to kill TBMs and the S-300V4 and S-400 will be even better at handling such targets... not to mention the S-500 when it is ready.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:54 am

    The problem was time was still a factor then and time is still a factor now , it was the Perishing missile with speed and accuracy that was a problem which gave Soviets high command little time to react.The S-300V were well capable of dealing with tactical missile like Perishing.

    But situation does not change that much , it would be back to square one . INF does not bar air launch cruise missile and submarine launched cruise missle which are flexible and covert. Plus with 500 km restriction they can cover good part of Europe.

    I really do not see Russia moving out of INF in a hurry , it is the 3rd leg of NATO ABM program which has the capability to intercept ICBM that is giving Russia tough time and third leg decision will be taken by 2020 , which is plenty of time.

    Lets see how this works out , instead of withdrawing for INF they can well move out of new start and build more missile that can target US and Europe

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:56 am

    NATO and Russia: Vigilant in the skies, evasive on missile defense

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20110607/164500531.html

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:04 am

    Garry , it is this missile that has the Russians got worried on NATO missile defence , the previous one are just IRBM specific types , the SM-3 Block 2B is the real source of worry for Russia as it can intercept ICBM from ground based launchers , check this news

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A8ae4c4fa-1c52-4c3c-855a-40441c2d3359

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:08 am

    The problem was time was still a factor then and time is still a factor now , it was the Perishing missile with speed and accuracy that was a problem which gave Soviets high command little time to react.The S-300V were well capable of dealing with tactical missile like Perishing.

    The late model Pershing II was believed to have a range of 2,500km... the S-300V could not intercept such a target reliably enough at the time and the decision making process in place could not react fast enough to take a decision before they started landing in Moscow. Also the S-300V is an Army system, not a PVO system.

    There was the Moscow ABM but it was never to stop a full scale attack on Moscow, it was to delay direct nuclear attack long enough to get the right people into bunkers and to get retaliation orders out.

    They were also worried about cruise missiles which were also a serious threat and with accuracy good enough to hit point targets.


    But situation does not change that much , it would be back to square one . INF does not bar air launch cruise missile and submarine launched cruise missle which are flexible and covert. Plus with 500 km restriction they can cover good part of Europe.

    Why restrict yourself at all? There are no restrictions on British or French military forces regarding IRBMs.

    I really do not see Russia moving out of INF in a hurry

    They are extending the range of Tender-M (Russian Iskander) and are working on a missile with even greater range. Sounds to me like they will be outgrowing the INF treaty fairly soon.

    Lets see how this works out , instead of withdrawing for INF they can well move out of new start and build more missile that can target US and Europe

    But it is useful to retain START... ICBMs are expensive. IRBMs are much cheaper.
    Tieing down the US on ICBMs and SLBM numbers has value. The fact that NATO is spending money on cruise missiles and the US has tactical nukes in Europe clearly shows Russia could do with some IRBMs.

    Garry , it is this missile that has the Russians got worried on NATO missile defence , the previous one are just IRBM specific types , the SM-3 Block 2B is the real source of worry for Russia as it can intercept ICBM from ground based launchers , check this news

    The missiles that were going to be put in Poland were much more capable than the SM-3 Block 2B missiles the USN uses. The SM-3 is a very large SAM on a solid rocket booster. The missiles that were going to be put in Poland were the size of IRBMs and would have had ranges in excess of 3,000 miles and were designed to hit targets outside the atmosphere in mid flight on their way over Europe to hit the US. That is why the US didn't bother talking to other countries in Europe about it because it had nothing to do with protecting Europe.

    The threat the Russians saw was that because of the INF treaty they only have missiles with a range of more than 5,500km to use on all their enemies. This means that the missiles they fired over the pole are exactly the same missiles they would fire at France and the UK. The fact that the missiles they were firing at Europe were only travelling half or even less of their max flight range meant that the missiles would fly much higher than they otherwise would so the missiles in Poland would have plenty of time to line up and hit the missiles on their way to Europe. They couldn't do anything about the missiles going to the US over the north pole, but the US has interceptors in Alaska for that.

    Such ABM missiles are a threat when the number of ICBMs is restricted and the number of ABM interceptor missiles is not restricted. Removal of the INF treaty means that for every ABM interceptor the Russians can simply make a IRBM to take out the ABM platform.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Austin on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:56 pm

    Fly-by-photo’ Iskander missile test-fired

    Russian rocket artillery troops have equipped Iskander missiles with a terminal guidance system using photos of the target to greatly improve precision. The tactical ballistic missiles are Russia’s answer to NATO’s controversial European ABM shield.

    The upgraded missile designated 9M723 for the Iskander system was tested last week by an artillery use and research center, reports Izvestia newspaper citing a source in the General Staff.

    The guided missile is homed ‘by photo’, that is compares the actual view to a pre-loaded digital image of the target,” the source explained.

    The technology is similar to Pentagon’s Digital Scene-Mapping Area Correlator (DSMAC). In the case of the Iskander it helped improve the missile’s accuracy twofold. The versions currently deployed have Circular Error Probable (CEP) of 10 meters, while for the new missile it was lowered to merely 5 meters.

    The improved precision makes the Iskander more efficient against highly fortified underground targets, the source says.

    Iskander is a mobile theater-level ballistic missile system. It is a designated replacement for the older Tochka missiles, which had been deployed since 1970s. The first brigade armed with the missiles was formed in October this year. A total of 120 Iskander launchers are to be deployed by Russia by 2020.

    The missile can be armed with different loads, including tactical nuclear warheads. Its estimated maximum range is 280 kilometers. An Iskander launcher can also potentially fire cruise missiles.

    In 2008 amid the heated dispute over American plans to deploy an Antiballistic Missile system (ABM) in Eastern Europe, President Medvedev threatened to deploy Iskanders in the Russian western exclave, the Kaliningrad Region. It would allow for the attack of ABM sites in Poland and Czech Republic, which were to become part of the system.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:58 am

    Actually the optical guidance for Iskander and Tochka-U is not really new.

    A scanned image from a satellite or aircraft is all that is needed to target assets... even if the target is not visible its position in relation to other more visible things can be used for guidance too.

    In other words a very well camouflaged or even buried target can be targeted based on objects near it.

    Ie the camouflage net might completely conceal a tank, but an aimpoint between the two trees on either side of the tank can be used to aim for and hit it.


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    Iskander The Great

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:43 pm



    Found this photo in the hornet's nest caleed Militaryphotos. It was posted by Andy_UA.
    We see a cruise missile being launched by the Iskander complex.

    It prompted me to start this dedicated thread to this interesting system which apparently has at least 2 versions Iskander-M and Iskander-K.

    Lots of great photos can be found on this Russian website: http://military.tomsk.ru/blog/topic-185.html

    Including this photo of the K model:



    Would like to know more about the various versions, guidance modes and ABM-defense evading features.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:06 am

    The cruise missile model is basically Klub.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:26 am

    Looks similar to Bastion anti-ship complex. Are those land attack cruise missiles?

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:The cruise missile model is basically Klub.

    But with 500km range.

    medo wrote:Are those land attack cruise missiles?

    Yes.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:11 pm





    -Looks similar to Bastion anti-ship complex. Are those land attack cruise missiles?


    Medo your in-built Mark-1 optical system is not perfectly calibrated Very Happy , ask to GarryB to correct it to aim in its same direction. Wink


    The R-500's launcher module for Iskander-K is ,simply, no more than a domestic Klub-M launcher ; it is slightly adapted for complete 9P78's compatibility and to allow 9T250 reloader vehicle transporting the cruise missile module to replace ,in the field, the two ballistic missiles of an Iskander TEL with a launcher of six R-500 missiles .

    In an article of some years ago ("Iskander the Great " by Mikhail Barabanov) are present several informations on the subject in question .Those are some extracts of interest :

    "Further development of the warfighting capabilities of the Iskander missile system should include the integration of the high-precision R-500 (3M14) subsonic cruise missile, developed by the Novator Design Bureau in Yekaterinburg. The R-500 missile is actually a conventional version of the Soviet 3M10 (RK-55) long-range cruise missile, which was the analogue of the U.S. Tomahawk cruise missile. The 3M10, is installed as the Granat (SS-N-21) system with a range of up to 2,600 km on the Russian Navy’s nuclear-powered attack submarines and was previously deployed as the Relief (SSC-4) ground-based long-range mobile cruise missile system, eliminated by the 1987 INF Treaty."


    Medo image that you are perfectly capable to identify what domestic missile (accidentally just the land attack version of this missile Wink ) developed by Novator Design Bureau respond to the denomination of 3M14.....
    Moreover you can also easily see what domestic missile has been revealed the last year in public accessible media by russian authorities, to have a range in the 2000-2500 km area....have you detected the missile in question ?


    "The Iskander missile system with the R-500 cruise missile is designated Iskander-K. Six R-500 cruise missiles with vertical launch canisters can be installed in place of the two ballistic missiles on a standard 9P78 TEL vehicle."


    ....well , now control how many missiles contain the land-based launcher module of those cruise missiles... Wink


    The problem ,at now, turn exclusively around compliance or not compliance with the INF Treaty and, obviously, the possibility to use ,on the international diplomatic chessboard, the "freezing" of Iskander-M complex's potentially devastating capabilities ,(including the operational range of its ballistic missile component, at now within 500 Km )within the limits imposed by INF Treaty as an heavy exchange coin in foreign politics with NATO. Those are the words of Commander of the Missile Troops and Artillery of the Russian Ground Forces Colonel General Vladimir Zaritsky on the subject from the same article:


    «at present the Iskander-M missile system fully complies with the conditions of the INF Treaty, but if a political decision were made to withdraw from the Treaty, we would increase the fighting capabilities of the system, including its range


    As anyone know ,in fact, ground based Theatre and Intermediate ballistic/cruise missile launchers are the most strictly controlled and limited in Arms Control Agreement just for theirs capability to deliver dozen of times more destructive power than an equal weapon system air or naval based .

    Ground based launchers,in fact, have virtually no limits to theirs ammunition's stock imposed, as in ships or aircraft, by the limits dictated by the carrying platforms and can therefore continue, reloading, to attack over and over and over with the only limit being the entire national reserve of similar weapons and show immeasurably greater survivability - each ground based launchers can count, naturally, on the defence structures of the entire national IAD architecture, moreover can disperse widely from a brigade level to single unity, employ without problem fixed and mobile decoys and camonets, render itself invulnerable or undetectable for long periods using underground sites or tunnels ,mask or disappear in any existing civilian structure (from the hay loft of an insulated factory to a civilian building's park ); ship or submarine based launchers ,instead, cannot count on an entire national IAD structure for defend themselves ,neither can employ any type of decoy ,neither render itself momentarily invulnerable/undetectable ,neither disperse when necessary each of its missile launchers neither mask themselves with civilian assets , aircraft based cruise missiles (ballistic missiles aren't present as air delivered weapons) are the most frail against an advanced opponent ,because over the shortcomings of sea based launchers have as theirs prerequisite assets fixed and very frail structures full of soft skin vehicles -airfields- ,very easy to obliterate by part of an advanced opponent employing nothing more than a concentrated saturating attack .


    Anyone can realize as ,for Russia, the potential and almost instantaneous possibility to "convert" the ,by far, most advanced and unstoppable tactical ballistic missile at world at today in its -not-INF-Treaty-compliant version capable to employing also Klub missile launchers represent a very, very good "exchange good" for eventual diplomatic agreements with NATO ,in perspective, on the question of ABM shield in East Europe

    Just to give an idea of what we talk here is sufficient to say that a pair of brigades of those not-INF-compliant Iskander-M will be capable to release 48 virtually unstoppable missiles with HE unitary, fuel-air explosive, high explosive earth penetrator, area denial submunitions, antiradar blast/fragmentation or .....nuclear warheads against well defended primary enemy targets, likely well over 1000 Km far ,disperse, reload with R-500 launchers and deliver 144 Klub cruise missiles versus secondary targets at 2000-2500 km range, disperse reload with ballistic missiles and fire other 48 ballistic missiles at different primary targets, all of that in less than 45 minutes !!!!

    Any of those missiles could be delivered 24/24 seven days at week, literally from any position : from a "shoot and scout" open field position or just outside a redeploying tunnel, to an abandoned hangar or railcar deposit outside a city or a totally hidden silo-like shooting positions near a mountain, etc..etc...under the full cover of national IAD structure and Air Forces Smile Smile



    Best regards.





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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:51 pm

    Thanks Mindstorm.

    Bonus photo from MAKS show (2007 year I think).


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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:06 am

    Plus it all fits in with the unification of systems as the 3M14 is used on ships and subs and I think it was Cyberspec that posted a thread on the air launched 3M14... which is ironic isn't it?

    Many western observers saw the Kh-55 (Nato codename AS-15 Kent) and when they heard about land based launchers and ship and sub launched subsonic cruise missiles they assumed they were all the same missile.

    The Klub is actually based on the Granat which was the old ground and naval surface and sub launched cruise missile, but expands the family to include a land attack missile with a subsonic and a supersonic anti ship missile and a supersonic ballistic rocket for delivering a torpedo up to 50km from the launch platform. Now there are also air launched models and land based models, and there are seperate ship and sub versions of the ballistic torpedo delivery system... in other words they have equivalents to ASROC and SUBROC that are different and not compatible... the ASROC equivalent has a range of 40km while the SUBROC delivers the torpedo up to 50km from the launch platform.

    The same truck vehicle used for the Iskander family system is also to be used as the SMERCH replacement in the Tornado family with two reloadable pallets for 122, 220, and 300mm calibre rockets.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:52 pm

    hmm .. why do we have this thread : http://www.russiadefence.net/t75-iskander-e-ss-26-stone?

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:21 am

    Fixed... Smile

    Please search for topics before posting new threads. Smile

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:23 pm

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0-500_%28%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0%29

    P-500 - Russian medium-range cruise missile, designed for complex Iskander [3], capable, according to First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov, to overcome all existing and future missile defense system [4].

    According to wikileaks, precision subsonic cruise missile, P-500 - is a modern version of the Soviet 3M10 «Garnet" with a radius of 2600 km, which was created to arm Soviet submarines. As of 2011, produced six F-500 [5] [6].


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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:00 am

    If I remember correctly the Soviet Union had a 555km range cruise missile called P 500 which bore a close physical resemblance to the P6 and P35 series . This missile entered service in the mid seventies.The P 1000 Vulcan was subsequently designed as a replacement for the P 500 in the Soviet arsenal.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:48 am

    The weird thing is that the P-500 and P-1000 are naval missiles and the Granat they are talking about is the 2,500km range cruise missile the Klub system is based on.

    I remember reading an article about the Iskander about various planned upgrades including one to take its range well beyond the 500km allowed by the INF treaty.

    I rather suspect that if the US persists in its ABM in Europe that the INF treaty will go and we will see 2,000km range Iskander missiles and 2,500km range cruise missiles deployed by Russia.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:The weird thing is that the P-500 and P-1000 are naval missiles and the Granat they are talking about is the 2,500km range cruise missile the Klub system is based on.

    I remember reading an article about the Iskander about various planned upgrades including one to take its range well beyond the 500km allowed by the INF treaty.

    I rather suspect that if the US persists in its ABM in Europe that the INF treaty will go and we will see 2,000km range Iskander missiles and 2,500km range cruise missiles deployed by Russia.

    That's right . Just second guessing here , but I think the wiki source was referring to the R 500 misile ( and not the P 500).The R 500 was previously used only with tactical ballistic missiles. It is designed to operate at ranges of up to 280 km, flying a radar-evading trajectory, and has a reported CEP of 3 meters. But then the R 500 was already successfully test fired in 2008 itself and displayed in MAKS 2011. It was derived from the 3M 10 long range cruise missile of the USSR (The Chinese DH 10 is also said to be copied from the 3M 10 as well).

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:45 pm

    I think P-500 is a land-based cruise missile possibly armed with a nuclear warhead like RK-55 Granat

    S-10 Granat was a version of RK-55 launched from submarines, like today Klub missiles

    The ground-launched variant was subject to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed in December 1987 and had been tested but not deployed by that time.

    I think this missile is an answer to US ABM and its deployment will be clearly a strategic political decision.

    What do u think?

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:45 pm

    George1 wrote:I think this missile is an answer to US ABM and its deployment will be clearly a strategic political decision.

    What do u think?


    Which missile P500 or R 500 ? Sorry for sounding dense.

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:46 pm

    R 500

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    Re: Iskander-E (SS-26 Stone):

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:13 pm

    George1 wrote:R 500

    The US ABM program is already in jeopardy . Czech Republic is not going to allow it's soil to be used for the ABM systems. None of the countries in Europe are interested in a Missile Crisis engulfing Europe.

    Technically , you may say Russia's reprisal options are not restricted to the Iskander K / R 500 . Topol M still remains the post potent reply .

    Even if the United States expands the system, say, by increasing the number of interceptors, it would not be able to
    neutralize the retaliatory capability of the Russian military force .Overall, the European system in the configuration that is proposed by the United States today cannot present a significant direct threat to the Russian strategic force. The location of the radar in the Czech Republic ( if at all it comes about) would not allow the US to detect missiles launched from any of the Russian test sites used for launches of sea or land-based ballistic missiles. The curvature of the Earth prevents this. Thus the radar cannot be used to gather intelligence on Russian missiles. Technically it is possible to equip interceptors with nuclear warheads. Yet it is pointless from military and political points of view.

    One of the most difficult thing to do is to intercept a cruise missile . That's why the R 500 is important . Since it is derived from a long range cruise missile it is reasonable to expect that it will have a range of 2500 kms .

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