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    Russian Naval Aviation: News

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:42 pm

    I think Russia needs a new naval transport helicopter, sth like EH101 Merlin
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    Post  franco on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:46 pm

    George1 wrote:I think Russia needs a new naval transport helicopter, sth like EH101 Merlin

    Maybe the Ka-60 if and when it shows up.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:30 am

    I think he is a bit confused as the Ka-29 is a troop transport with some support capabilities with cannon/HMG and rocket capability, whereas the Ka-52 is a recon attack helo with no troop transport capacity...

    I rather suspect that if they do develop a helicopter carrier that those landing ships the French had could probably deliver troops faster and with their own armoured vehicle...

    The problem with a transport helo is that it drops off troops and then leaves to collect more troops leaving the troops with no constant support or protection... the special high speed landing ships on the Mistral on the other hand can deliver the troops and an armoured vehicle that offers both fire support and protection if needed that remains with the troops...
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:09 pm

    George1 wrote:Ship-based UAVs to be designed for Russian Navy

    Naval aviation’s aircraft will be modernized and replaced with newer models in the coming years

    MOSCOW, January 2. /TASS/. Ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will be designed for the needs of the Russian Navy’s naval aviation, the Russian naval aviation chief, Maj. Gen. Igor Kozhin, said Monday.

    "One of prospective directions for specialists of leading design bureaus is research and design aimed at creating an unmanned ship-based aircraft," Kozhin said, without giving any details or timeframe of the research.

    He said the naval aviation’s aircraft will be modernized and replaced with newer models in the coming years.

    "In particular, the carrier-based fighter aviation units will get MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB fighter jets in 2017-2020. The fleet of naval aviation combat helicopters will also be seriously renewed. The Ka-29 helicopters currently in service will be replaced by the newest Ka-52K reconnaissance and combat helicopter," Kozhin said.

    Both the MiG-29K (single seat) and MiG-29KUB (double seat) aircraft are the "4++" generation multi-role fighters intended for air defense missions. They can destroy targets at sea and ground with high-precision guided weapons day and night, in any weather conditions.

    The Ka-52K Katran attack helicopter is a ship-based version of the baseline Ka-52, initially designed for basing on French-built Mistral-class helicopter carriers.


    Two good news, and expected.

    For me shipborne UAVs of different ranges will be the most likely option to succeed for the role of maritime patrol. As commented before, long range shipborne UAVs plus some fast strategic bombers with anti-submarine capabilities are a right combination to replace the current fleet of maritime patrol aircrafts (Be-12, Il-38 and Tu-95/142). Note that the last is a strategic bomber adapted.

    Also to see the Ka-50/52 entering in naval roles is positive. I tend to think that this helicopter will also be selected for anti-submarine role, increasing the standardization of the fleet. The Ka-29 and the Ka-52K may not be exactly of the same role, but it is possible to do a replacement adapting also the roles better to the real needs.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:13 pm

    Russia’s naval aviation receives 8 upgraded Ka-27M deck-based helicopters

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/923825
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:33 am

    For me shipborne UAVs of different ranges will be the most likely option to succeed for the role of maritime patrol. As commented before, long range shipborne UAVs plus some fast strategic bombers with anti-submarine capabilities are a right combination to replace the current fleet of maritime patrol aircrafts (Be-12, Il-38 and Tu-95/142). Note that the last is a strategic bomber adapted.

    I appreciate what you are suggesting, and to a degree I agree... unmanned platforms have a significant future in terms of long range patrol and surveillance.

    The issue I have is a ship based system will need to be rather small and short ranged even though it can move with the ship it is based upon.

    To replace an MPA you will need a rather larger aircraft with bigger sensors and heavy equipment... something you wont get in a ship based system.

    Of course that does not mean it can't be done... some large land based patrol aircraft of modular design that can perform each of the roles of manned MPAs would allow a reduction in size by not making them capable of doing everything.

    Land basing means larger platforms with bigger sensors and the option for rearming or loading mission specific weapons fairly readily.

    The ship based UAVs could link up with the long range UAVs and share data and cooperate in various situations... in fact... imagine a situation where sensor data is not good enough... you would not risk a manned MPA as they are too expensive and risk capture of crew, and a large land based UAV would compromise technology and also not be cheap but having a small ship near the contested waters that launches a smaller more disposable UAV with sensors and weapons that could innocently get lost and stray into the wrong area to either collect data or be shot down... if you know what I mean... sharing data right up the destruction with any long range UAVs in international air space nearby.... sort of like the way the US military used its recon aircraft built from modified bombers to test and probe Soviet defences... record procedures and frequencies and to look for force levels etc.

    Also to see the Ka-50/52 entering in naval roles is positive. I tend to think that this helicopter will also be selected for anti-submarine role, increasing the standardization of the fleet. The Ka-29 and the Ka-52K may not be exactly of the same role, but it is possible to do a replacement adapting also the roles better to the real needs.

    The different roles require very specific and very different equipment, sensors and weapons. For the Ka-52 to be used as an anti submarine helo it would need a lot of extra equipment like a dipping sonar. Its radar would be excellent for detecting things like snorkels and periscopes already, and it would already be able to carry anti sub torpedoes and depth charges including guided ones.

    Personally I think a better solution would be a modular helo like a scaled up Ka-226T where the engines and rotors and front cabin are standard but a range of rear pods could be attached or adapted depending upon the role.

    That way you could have a transport module for a boarding team to be carried or an anti sub module with dipping sonar and sonabouys and even a MAD detector.

    For rescue you can have onboard medical equipment and a hoist.

    For attack you can have something that looks like the Ka-52.

    You could even use the base model as a flying crane that could fly out and lock on to surfaces mini subs to fly them back to the mother ship or to recover used sonobouys or divers...
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    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:08 pm

    Russia’s Northern Fleet to receive six Ka-27M helicopters this year

    More:
    http://tass.com/politics/923860
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    Post  Guest on Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    George1 wrote:Ship-based UAVs to be designed for Russian Navy

    Naval aviation’s aircraft will be modernized and replaced with newer models in the coming years

    MOSCOW, January 2. /TASS/. Ship-based unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will be designed for the needs of the Russian Navy’s naval aviation, the Russian naval aviation chief, Maj. Gen. Igor Kozhin, said Monday.

    "One of prospective directions for specialists of leading design bureaus is research and design aimed at creating an unmanned ship-based aircraft," Kozhin said, without giving any details or timeframe of the research.

    He said the naval aviation’s aircraft will be modernized and replaced with newer models in the coming years.

    "In particular, the carrier-based fighter aviation units will get MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB fighter jets in 2017-2020. The fleet of naval aviation combat helicopters will also be seriously renewed. The Ka-29 helicopters currently in service will be replaced by the newest Ka-52K reconnaissance and combat helicopter," Kozhin said.

    Both the MiG-29K (single seat) and MiG-29KUB (double seat) aircraft are the "4++" generation multi-role fighters intended for air defense missions. They can destroy targets at sea and ground with high-precision guided weapons day and night, in any weather conditions.

    The Ka-52K Katran attack helicopter is a ship-based version of the baseline Ka-52, initially designed for basing on French-built Mistral-class helicopter carriers.


    Two good news, and expected.

    For me shipborne UAVs of different ranges will be the most likely option to succeed for the role of maritime patrol. As commented before, long range shipborne UAVs plus some fast strategic bombers with anti-submarine capabilities are a right combination to replace the current fleet of maritime patrol aircrafts (Be-12, Il-38 and Tu-95/142). Note that the last is a strategic bomber adapted.

    Also to see the Ka-50/52 entering in naval roles is positive. I tend to think that this helicopter will also be selected for anti-submarine role, increasing the standardization of the fleet. The Ka-29 and the Ka-52K may not be exactly of the same role, but it is possible to do a replacement adapting also the roles better to the real needs.

    Strategic bombers have nothing to do in ASW role unless built from the scratch for that specific role. ASW requires remarkably heavy and specific array of sensors and equipment which if fitted to "normal" strategic bomber would badly affect its "normal" role capabilities. ASW aircraft these days are based either on militarised civilian liners or purpose built turboprops (better option).

    Ka-52K will have some ASW capabilities but it cant and will never be main ASW platform in the Navy.
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    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:49 pm

    Going through the thread and reading on Russia's ASW/MPA fleet, it seems they're only left with a dozen of Tu-142s and another dozen (or two?) of Il-38s. How/when exactly did the drop the ball? Huge capability gap in a field where they can't afford to be complacent. Countries like Japan do better than that. And Russia's territorial waters/EEZ are not exactly small, world's 3rd longest coastline and all that jazz Shocked
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    Post  Guest on Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:Going through the thread and reading on Russia's ASW/MPA fleet, it seems they're only left with a dozen of Tu-142s and another dozen (or two?) of Il-38s. How/when exactly did the drop the ball? Huge capability gap in a field where they can't afford to be complacent. Countries like Japan do better than that. And Russia's territorial waters/EEZ are not exactly small, world's 3rd longest coastline and all that jazz Shocked

    Even in USSR times ASW aviation and maritime patrol was a weak spot. Japan is doing it ALOT better actually, at peak they had 120 ASW fixed-wing aircraft. Even now they have about 80.
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    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:57 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Going through the thread and reading on Russia's ASW/MPA fleet, it seems they're only left with a dozen of Tu-142s and another dozen (or two?) of Il-38s. How/when exactly did the drop the ball? Huge capability gap in a field where they can't afford to be complacent. Countries like Japan do better than that. And Russia's territorial waters/EEZ are not exactly small, world's 3rd longest coastline and all that jazz Shocked

    Even in USSR times ASW aviation and maritime patrol was a weak spot. Japan is doing it ALOT better actually, at peak they had 120 ASW fixed-wing aircraft. Even now they have about 80.

    It seems there are no of such planes in the Black Sea and possibly even Baltic.
    Not sure what were/are they thinking. USN, MN, RN, SwRN and NATO SSKs are having a free ride all over. Not to mention ROKN and JMSDF in the Pacific.

    Literally hundreds of subs dunno
    Last time a Tu-142 was seen near the Med was one that was tasked with ELINT/SIGINT over Syria, i.e. not even performing its primary mission (as if they had ASW assets to spare).
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:20 am

    Are these planes still good at searching submarines ? It's already hard for a sub to detect another sub.

    In the Black Sea and Baltic they would be destroyed quickly from long distances by a fighter. NATO Aircraft can do shoot and run tactics too.

    In pacific and in the north, they have something like SOSUS that will detect aproching subs so no need to have lot of them. Japan's P-8 will be destroyed at 300 by a Su-35 easily too if it operates near Kurils.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:27 am

    Isos wrote:Are these planes still good at searching submarines ? It's already hard for a sub to detect another sub.

    In the Black Sea and Baltic they would be destroyed quickly from long distances by a fighter. NATO Aircraft can do shoot and run tactics too.

    In pacific and in the north, they have something like SOSUS that will detect aproching subs so no need to have lot of them. Japan's P-8 will be destroyed at 300 by a Su-35 easily too if it operates near Kurils.

    They are very good at detecting subs if they are given... area in which sub is to be expected, lets put it that way, so that is the reason why you need them in decent number.

    So are all kinds of transport, AWACS, air tankers, liners, ELINT platfroms etc etc, that does not mean you should stop using, building and developing them.

    ASW aviation is more of defensive than offensive measure, thats why aircraft are often doubled as "ASW and maritime patrol". US has SOSUS too, yet they operate huge amount of ASW platforms other than that, SOSUS cant destroy subs and track them though their path, it can tell you where they crossed the line.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:29 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Going through the thread and reading on Russia's ASW/MPA fleet, it seems they're only left with a dozen of Tu-142s and another dozen (or two?) of Il-38s. How/when exactly did the drop the ball? Huge capability gap in a field where they can't afford to be complacent. Countries like Japan do better than that. And Russia's territorial waters/EEZ are not exactly small, world's 3rd longest coastline and all that jazz Shocked

    Even in USSR times ASW aviation and maritime patrol was a weak spot. Japan is doing it ALOT better actually, at peak they had 120 ASW fixed-wing aircraft. Even now they have about 80.

    It seems there are no of such planes in the Black Sea and possibly even Baltic.
    Not sure what were/are they thinking. USN, MN, RN, SwRN and NATO SSKs are having a free ride all over. Not to mention ROKN and JMSDF in the Pacific.

    Literally hundreds of subs dunno
    Last time a Tu-142 was seen near the Med was one that was tasked with ELINT/SIGINT over Syria, i.e. not even performing its primary mission (as if they had ASW assets to spare).

    Russia has huge sensor network around it shores.

    It using nuclear batteries to poser the sensors and communications suites.

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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:36 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Going through the thread and reading on Russia's ASW/MPA fleet, it seems they're only left with a dozen of Tu-142s and another dozen (or two?) of Il-38s. How/when exactly did the drop the ball? Huge capability gap in a field where they can't afford to be complacent. Countries like Japan do better than that. And Russia's territorial waters/EEZ are not exactly small, world's 3rd longest coastline and all that jazz Shocked

    Even in USSR times ASW aviation and maritime patrol was a weak spot. Japan is doing it ALOT better actually, at peak they had 120 ASW fixed-wing aircraft. Even now they have about 80.

    It seems there are no of such planes in the Black Sea and possibly even Baltic.
    Not sure what were/are they thinking. USN, MN, RN, SwRN and NATO SSKs are having a free ride all over. Not to mention ROKN and JMSDF in the Pacific.

    Literally hundreds of subs dunno
    Last time a Tu-142 was seen near the Med was one that was tasked with ELINT/SIGINT over Syria, i.e. not even performing its primary mission (as if they had ASW assets to spare).

    Russia has huge sensor network around it shores.

    It using nuclear batteries to poser the sensors and communications suites.


    Negative, Soviet installations of the type are long out of serviceable lifespan, i doubt if any are active as of this day.

    Russians claim they are atm developing such system, under Almaz-Antey shroud: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/september-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4334-russia-developing-sosus-type-sonar-system-to-protect-territorial-waters-in-the-arctic.html

    There is this but its believed RuNav was not the customer: http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/hydroacoustics-hydroacoustic-equipment/mgk-608e-passive-stationary-sonar-system
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    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:37 am

    Isos wrote:Are these planes still good at searching submarines ? It's already hard for a sub to detect another sub.

    In the Black Sea and Baltic they would be destroyed quickly from long distances by a fighter. NATO Aircraft can do shoot and run tactics too.

    In pacific and in the north, they have something like SOSUS that will detect aproching subs so no need to have lot of them. Japan's P-8 will be destroyed at 300 by a Su-35 easily too if it operates near Kurils.

    Yeah ASW aircraft are the alpha and the omega of ASW warfare, in conjunction with good numbers of SSNs/SSKs and ASW frigates. The good thing with aircraft patrolling is that they can deploy sonobuoys on demand and work in conjunction with naval surveillance UAVs like the Triton. This is probably more important during peacetime as with enough platforms one can know their opponent's sub deployments, possibly down to the last vessel. Russia lacks the numbers in all three fields. Also... There's only about 50 Su-35s with a plan for 100, if they're tasked to bring down 100 or so of JMSDF's ASW/MPA assets, then well... lets just say they'll be misused and ultimately wasted.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:57 am

    Negative, Soviet installations of the type are long out of serviceable lifespan, i doubt if any are active as of this day.

    Wrong.

    The Russians maintain several sensor arrays... in fact a mini sub maintaining one of those arrays got stuck and had to be rescued a while back.

    At least they have more ASW aircraft than the UK...

    They have recently given all their aircraft upgrades with variations of sea dragon.

    Not to mention they also have a reasonable fleet of SSKs which can also hunt enemy subs.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Negative, Soviet installations of the type are long out of serviceable lifespan, i doubt if any are active as of this day.

    Wrong.

    The Russians maintain several sensor arrays... in fact a mini sub maintaining one of those arrays got stuck and had to be rescued a while back.

    At least they have more ASW aircraft than the UK...

    They have recently given all their aircraft upgrades with variations of sea dragon.

    Not to mention they also have a reasonable fleet of SSKs which can also hunt enemy subs.

    What i know for sure that Pacific installations are out of order since 1995-6. or so. Having SSKs is all fine, having ASW aircraft is however far more convenient for defensive roles, and as many as possible when we are at it.

    Well UK enjoys having ASW assets of other nearby countries "working for them". Russia does not.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:04 pm

    They have Ka-27 too which can deploy sonars and torpedos.
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:31 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html

    To remember about the question.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:

    Russia has huge sensor network around it shores.

    It using nuclear batteries to poser the sensors and communications suites.


    Negative, Soviet installations of the type are long out of serviceable lifespan, i doubt if any are active as of this day.

    Russians claim they are atm developing such system, under Almaz-Antey shroud: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/september-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4334-russia-developing-sosus-type-sonar-system-to-protect-territorial-waters-in-the-arctic.html

    There is this but its believed RuNav was not the customer: http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/hydroacoustics-hydroacoustic-equipment/mgk-608e-passive-stationary-sonar-system

    Russia continue the old CCCP military doctrine, means : detection and C&C is the most important.

    Between 1990-2010 Russia hasn't bought new airplane, but bought a lot of radars, each of them costing as much as a new aircraft.

    Do you think that they had a lot of radars to detect any type of aircraft, but they hasn't got any sensor network under the ice of arctic?
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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:06 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html

    To remember about the question.

    Minoga will eventually replace Ka-27 family in the "heavy" naval helicopter role. Ka-60 is an option for smaller displacement ships.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:40 am

    What i know for sure that Pacific installations are out of order since 1995-6. or so.

    So why would the Russian navy be operating mini subs around the aerials of a hydrophone array that had not been operational for the previous decade?

    On August 5, 2005 AS-28, under the command of Lieutenant Vyacheslav Milashevskiy, became entangled with the aerial of a hydrophone array off the coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, in Berezovaya Bay, 70 km southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, Kamchatka Oblast.

    Just looking at the work the Army and Air Force has done I would suspect the Navy started by upgrading their C4IR capabilities...


    Well UK enjoys having ASW assets of other nearby countries "working for them". Russia does not.

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...
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    Post  Guest on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What i know for sure that Pacific installations are out of order since 1995-6. or so.

    So why would the Russian navy be operating mini subs around the aerials of a hydrophone array that had not been operational for the previous decade?

    On August 5, 2005 AS-28, under the command of Lieutenant Vyacheslav Milashevskiy, became entangled with the aerial of a hydrophone array off the coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, in Berezovaya Bay, 70 km southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, Kamchatka Oblast.

    Just looking at the work the Army and Air Force has done I would suspect the Navy started by upgrading their C4IR capabilities...


    Well UK enjoys having ASW assets of other nearby countries "working for them". Russia does not.

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.

    There was report few years back (cca 2013), refering to underwater detection line somewhere in North Sea that still exists but there was no mention of any other similar facility being still active. Now, they might be reintroducing, repairing or even placing new ones, but as of this moment i dont think any is currently operational, except i suppose that one Northen fleet still has. I would assume Pacific-Baltic system of a sort would be their first priority rather than Northen.

    Well, see, UK is in such position that it has Spain, Portugal and France under-next to it and whole bunch of countries above it that operate own maritime patrol and ASW aircraft fleets, often even US Orions reside in the UK. Also they ordered P-8s to refresh their ASW wing for future. Liked we it or not, NATO countries are well connected grid.

    Well, UK did not cease having ASW aircraft, they just reduced their number compared to Cold War, its doubtful they would ever completely remove any type of military hardware, except strategic bombers which they already did.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:59 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.
    [/quote]

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6927395.stm
    Russia plants flag under N Pole

    It was in 2007.

    Maybe it is an interesting infromation , but the lomov ridge shallow enought to be used as seabed sonar platform.

    Means that in 2007 they installed / repaired underwater sonar system on the north pole. As the most plauible reason why they sent a nucelar icebreaker and a few mroe ship there : )

    An interesting question , why russia has deep sea tianium mini subs? for oceanogrphy purposes.



    http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html

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