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    Post  Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 1:16 am

    sepheronx wrote:Ka-60 will be kinda hard since right now Russia is just getting its production of VK-2500 going for its current helicopters Ka-52 and Mi-28.  The current ones used for it are French and based from a contract back in 2011 but obviously that wont work now.  So Ka-60 development for military purposes will be pushed back for a couple more years to improve the VK-2500 to Mark III in order to get it powerful enough for the Ka-60.

    Well they mentioned K-226 navalised variant but i am not fan of that idea. Mi-14 restart project was also mentioned but its still too big for certain ships, that new replacement for Ka-27 family is also an option but it wont be ready for some years most likely.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 16, 2016 2:10 am

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Ka-60 will be kinda hard since right now Russia is just getting its production of VK-2500 going for its current helicopters Ka-52 and Mi-28.  The current ones used for it are French and based from a contract back in 2011 but obviously that wont work now.  So Ka-60 development for military purposes will be pushed back for a couple more years to improve the VK-2500 to Mark III in order to get it powerful enough for the Ka-60.

    Well they mentioned K-226 navalised variant but i am not fan of that idea. Mi-14 restart project was also mentioned but its still too big for certain ships, that new replacement for Ka-27 family is also an option but it wont be ready for some years most likely.


    what is wrong with 226?  Ka-226 is not bad option for  small missile/patrol ships. Eventually accompanied by drones like Fregat. About Mi-14 is silence now I guess is dropped out from top priority list now...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 16, 2016 12:43 pm

    Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    Actually strictly speaking the Ka-31 is an AEW helicopter, or radar picket helo, and the Ka-60 is a transport helo, while the Ka-52 is an attack/CAS helo.

    The Ka-27 is the current ASW helo, the Ka-29 is the current troop transport helo, and the Ka-52 is the potential new attack/CAS/AShW helo.

    The modular Ka-226T helo has huge potential for smaller vessels as it can be used for a wide variety of roles with different modules attached.

    Also the Mi-14 can be a good option to take into account in the selection process, surely in the new units there are interesting updates.

    The Mi-14 is a very capable land based ASW helicopter...

    Actually they would need 2, depending on ship size. Ideally that new Ka-31 replacement we keep hearing about + Ka-60.

    The Ka-60 looks interesting, but it is a light 2.5 ton payload helo.

    A new replacement for the Helix models would be a good thing, but for the moment on a helicopter carrier like a Mistral or Russian equivalent the mix of Ka-52s for attack and Ka-29s for troop transport would be fine... a few Ka-27s for ASW would be useful too and some lighter helos like Ka-226s would be handy.

    Ka-60 will be kinda hard since right now Russia is just getting its production of VK-2500 going for its current helicopters Ka-52 and Mi-28. The current ones used for it are French and based from a contract back in 2011 but obviously that wont work now. So Ka-60 development for military purposes will be pushed back for a couple more years to improve the VK-2500 to Mark III in order to get it powerful enough for the Ka-60.

    Not sure what you are smoking but I don't think the new 2,700hp engines for the 10-12 ton attack helos like Mi-28 and Ka-52 would be suitable for a Ka-60 that has a TOW of 6.5 tons... unless you are suggesting a single engined helo... From memory the Ka-60 had engines of about 1,200hp each that were Russian... it is the Ka-226T that has French engines AFAIK.
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    Post  George1 on Mon May 16, 2016 1:32 pm

    well when they say for new naval helicopter i think they mean the standard ASW Helicopter for russian navy ships. So i t must be one it cant be 2 or combination (i exclude multi-role naval platforms that will take years to be constructed)
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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 16, 2016 2:00 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ka-60 will be kinda hard since right now Russia is just getting its production of VK-2500 going for its current helicopters Ka-52 and Mi-28.  The current ones used for it are French and based from a contract back in 2011 but obviously that wont work now.  So Ka-60 development for military purposes will be pushed back for a couple more years to improve the VK-2500 to Mark III in order to get it powerful enough for the Ka-60.

    The VK-2500 is too big for the KA-60/62. It uses smaller engines.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 16, 2016 2:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Ka-27 is the current ASW helo, the Ka-29 is the current troop transport helo, and the Ka-52 is the potential new attack/CAS/AShW helo.


    Actually they would need 2, depending on ship size. Ideally that new Ka-31 replacement we keep hearing about + Ka-60.

    The Ka-60 looks interesting, but it is a light 2.5 ton payload helo.



    both Ka-60 and Ka-29 can have 2t internal payload...Ka-29 16 troops Ka-60 like 14 but civilians then maybe 10-12 troops, not that much different to this class of tasks

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    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 16, 2016 3:08 pm

    Maybe wiki is wrong but due to development issues of Saturn engines, they had to use French. And so thus Russia doesn't produce the smaller engine. So if they can bypass using one or if it is just not technically possible, then they will have to get to work on those Saturn engines.
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    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 16, 2016 3:47 pm

    VK-2500 for KA-60? Why not go really big and install One D-136 engine?

    It is just as big as the cargo room+. We could probably fly to the moon.
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    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 16, 2016 3:51 pm

    I got no clue regarding sizes, just stating fact that Russia isn't producing suitable engine for the Ka-60 atm, meaning it is a no go for the military, end of discussion. Care to carry this on nitpicking semantics and technicality, be my guest but isn't going to change the point about Saturn engines not existing for the helicopters thus no mil orders.

    Russia so far only produces one type of helicopters engines that are not kits from motor sitch, and I think you guys are capable of knowing which one that is. So unless they can make the engine tiny or actually get the Saturn -600 engines working properly, I think it will have to be a different helicopter


    Last edited by sepheronx on Mon May 16, 2016 4:08 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  medo on Mon May 16, 2016 3:53 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Ka-60 will be kinda hard since right now Russia is just getting its production of VK-2500 going for its current helicopters Ka-52 and Mi-28.  The current ones used for it are French and based from a contract back in 2011 but obviously that wont work now.  So Ka-60 development for military purposes will be pushed back for a couple more years to improve the VK-2500 to Mark III in order to get it powerful enough for the Ka-60.

    Well they mentioned K-226 navalised variant but i am not fan of that idea. Mi-14 restart project was also mentioned but its still too big for certain ships, that new replacement for Ka-27 family is also an option but it wont be ready for some years most likely.


    what is wrong with 226?  Ka-226 is not bad option for  small missile/patrol ships. Eventually accompanied by drones like Fregat. About Mi-14 is silence now I guess is dropped out from top priority list now...

    As far as I know Ka-226 is only meant for Border Guard to be used on 22460 patrol ships. I'm not sure if NAVY will buy them as well.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 17, 2016 3:46 am

    Wasn't there some news report about Russia building larger and smaller engines to fill gaps in engine production?

    Russia simply cannot rely on foreign small engines.

    What happened to the RD-600 that was a 1,300hp engine?
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    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 17, 2016 3:54 am

    RD-600 had apparent issues but that is all I have heard and so in 2011 they contracted a French company for the engines. Back then, Russia had no issues with Motor Sich, now they got real major issues with all foreign suppliers and the French company can only provide on account that these are not for military use. Technically though, Russia is making a big push for domestic production of engines, but it was only recent (really recent, like last year/this year) where VK-2500 engine production actually started in Russia. Of course others will follow suite, but it will take time. I imagine Klimov and Saturn will end up working on building all types of helicopter engines, but this is something Russia screwed itself over due to reliance on Motor Sich. But, thankfully sanctions happened so it was a reality check for the Russian industry and authorities that they have to actually do it themselves.
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    Post  Austin on Wed May 18, 2016 1:39 pm

    New Russian Naval Helicopter Previewed
    by Vladimir Karnozov
    - May 17, 2016, 7:28 AM

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-05-17/new-russian-naval-helicopter-previewed

    Russian Helicopters confirmed that a next-generation naval helicopter is being developed with funding from the Russian Ministry of Defense. During a press briefing that preceded the eighth annual HeliRussia exposition taking place this week, the company also discussed modifications to the existing line of Kamov naval helicopters.

    “We have long been lobbying for development of a next-generation rotorcraft for the navy. Today, the R&D effort is ongoing. Kamov has completed the outline design. The project awaits decisions by the defense ministry,” said Andrei Shibitov, deputy general manager for manufacturing and innovations at Russian Helicopters. He declined to confirm previous reports that a first flight could occur in 2018.

    Shibitov also played down previous reports that new naval rotorcraft will be based on the Kamov Ka-226 or the Ka-60. “This is a principally new platform with indigenous engines,” he said. But the design will not be made public until the defense ministry permits it, he added.

    The Ka-60 medium-lift helicopter first flew in 1998, as a potential replacement for the Mil Mi-2 series. Prototypes were subsequently displayed on various occasions. But although the Ka-60’s two NPO Saturn 1,300-hp RD-600V turboshafts gained certification in December 2003, no production orders were forthcoming. The Ka-60 then provided the basis for a civilian version (designated Ka-62), which was displayed in mockup form from 2012. After repeated delays it made its first flight on April 26, 2016. The Ka-62 would be powered by a pair of Turbomeca Ardiden 3G engines each developing 1,680 hp.

    At the press briefing, Andrei Boginsky, deputy minister for industry and trade, said that the French engine is economical and could be license-produced in Russia. But he also suggested that a foreign engine is not acceptable for “certain customers,” presumably meaning the Russian military. Boginsky said that the RD-600V still provides an alternative, if it can be “reworked for higher performance and suitability to both military and civilian customers.” A higher-power version of the Russian engine that produces 1,500 hp is being developed.

    Shibitov mentioned the major ongoing modification and refit program for the Ka-27/28/29/31 series being performed at the Russian Helicopters KUMAPE plant in Kumertau. The Russian Navy’s Ka-27 is being modernized as the Ka-27M involving replacement of the radar and antisubmarine warfare suite, enabling use of the Kh-35 antiship missile and modern torpedoes. The Navy conducted Ka-27M operational trials in 2012-2013, and approved the new radar. The modernized helicopter is expected to serve for another 10 to 15 years.

    The Ka-28 and Ka-31 are export versions, and the Ka-29 is a land-attack version for support of the marines. The Ka-31 is in service with the Indian and Chinese navies. An improved radar has been fitted to the Ka-31, for longer-range detection range of sea-skimming cruise missiles, resulting in the Ka-31R version. Kamov has also produced a few Ka-31SV versions, for over-land applications such as the location of artillery fire. To date, no firm orders for either new version of the Ka-31 have been announced.
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu May 19, 2016 2:18 pm

    What was so special about the Mi-14 compared with something like a Sea King or other sea optimised medium lift helicopter?

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The Russian Defense Ministry plans to renew the production of Mi-14 Haze nuclear-capable amphibious anti-submarine helicopters, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said Thursday.

    “Yes, work is already being done in regard to this issue,” Borisov told RIA Novosti at the HeliRussia-2016 exposition in Moscow.

    The production of the Mi-14s was halted in 1980 and were removed from service in 1996 apparently under US pressure.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160519/1039881389/russia-military-helicopter.html#ixzz496TELiyf
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    Post  Guest on Thu May 19, 2016 3:47 pm

    JohninMK wrote:What was so special about the Mi-14 compared with something like a Sea King or other sea optimised medium lift helicopter?

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The Russian Defense Ministry plans to renew the production of Mi-14 Haze nuclear-capable amphibious anti-submarine helicopters, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said Thursday.

    “Yes, work is already being done in regard to this issue,” Borisov told RIA Novosti at the HeliRussia-2016 exposition in Moscow.

    The production of the Mi-14s was halted in 1980 and were removed from service in 1996 apparently under US pressure.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160519/1039881389/russia-military-helicopter.html#ixzz496TELiyf


    It was famous in NATO as "nuclear capable" simply due to fact it could carry Skat anti submarine depth bombs with nuclear warhead so i assume they were retired due to that reason. But on other hand it could be fitted to basically any major sized ASW helicopter so its just propaganda line as usually for wide public.

    But its very similar to Sea King in most of other aspects, being amphibious etc. Not all Sea King variants tho are advised to land on water as they got removed boyancy equipment.
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    Post  max steel on Fri May 20, 2016 10:57 pm

    All nuclear anti-submarine weapons were withdrawn from service by the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Russia, and China in or around 1990. They were replaced by conventional weapons such as the Mark 54 Torpedo that provided ever-increasing accuracy and range as ASW technology improved.

    Are russians planning to revive nuclear anti-sub depth bombs also ?
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    Post  Dima on Sun May 22, 2016 12:21 pm

    George1 wrote:Russian Helicopters Developing New Shipborne Chopper to Replace Ka-27

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160512/1039501009/russian-helicopters-new-replace-ka27.html#ixzz48TZu02Dm
    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html
    What about Ka-40?

    Russian Naval Aviation: News - Page 9 Ka40
    Russian Naval Aviation: News - Page 9 Ka-40-1

    With its cabin structure which looks like a complete departure from the Ka-27 series and with possibly a rear opening/ramp like the Mi-8/17, it would be perfect for troop transport and insertion.

    Co-axial rotors demand higher ceiling for hangers which might not be sometimes desirable. So the likes of Ka-60 have openings. But there are other prospective models to cater for the larger needs like the Mi-38 variant.
    Russian Naval Aviation: News - Page 9 A&s_2231_2

    For the Ka-31AEW replacement, I would love to see the Ka-40/Ka-60/Mi-383 with radar panels (like 2m x 1m or as per fuselage size) installed/integrated on the side fuselage.
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    Post  Dima on Sun May 22, 2016 12:38 pm

    Austin wrote:New Russian Naval Helicopter Previewed
    by Vladimir Karnozov
    - May 17, 2016, 7:28 AM

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-05-17/new-russian-naval-helicopter-previewed

    From the above article
    The Ka-28 and Ka-31 are export versions, and the Ka-29 is a land-attack version for support of the marines. The Ka-31 is in service with the Indian and Chinese navies. An improved radar has been fitted to the Ka-31, for longer-range detection range of sea-skimming cruise missiles, resulting in the Ka-31R version. Kamov has also produced a few Ka-31SV versions, for over-land applications such as the location of artillery fire. To date, no firm orders for either new version of the Ka-31 have been announced.
    In the case of Syrian conflict I was thinking how to track the terrorists firing their projectiles and was thinking we need to have a airborne Zoopark like stuff probably based on a baloon or something like that. Didn't knew Kamov had such a variant.

    http://survincity.com/2011/08/a-rare-photograph-of-the-first-prototype/
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 22, 2016 2:05 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Austin wrote:New Russian Naval Helicopter Previewed
    by Vladimir Karnozov
    - May 17, 2016, 7:28 AM

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-05-17/new-russian-naval-helicopter-previewed

    From the above article
    The Ka-28 and Ka-31 are export versions, and the Ka-29 is a land-attack version for support of the marines. The Ka-31 is in service with the Indian and Chinese navies. An improved radar has been fitted to the Ka-31, for longer-range detection range of sea-skimming cruise missiles, resulting in the Ka-31R version. Kamov has also produced a few Ka-31SV versions, for over-land applications such as the location of artillery fire. To date, no firm orders for either new version of the Ka-31 have been announced.
    In the case of Syrian conflict I was thinking how to track the terrorists firing their projectiles and was thinking we need to have a airborne Zoopark like stuff probably based on a baloon or something like that. Didn't knew Kamov had such a variant.

    http://survincity.com/2011/08/a-rare-photograph-of-the-first-prototype/

    Chinese also have own target detection and designation variant on their Mi-8 variants.
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    Post  George1 on Wed May 25, 2016 9:34 am

    Samara "Aviacor" handed over to the MoD an aircraft An-140 for the needs of the Navy

    This is the 9th An-140 delivered in overall to MoD
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:34 am

    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html

    For me the strongest option is the Ka-52, and the second best would be the Ka-31 (variant of the Ka-27).

    Not sure if I see the Ka-60/62 as a combat helicopter. Surely I would not order it. In the current ships that have helicopters, there is not need of an smaller (and less powerful) combat helicopter. And in the current ships that have not helicopters, if there is some space, but is not big enough for a Ka-52 or a Ka-31, it is likely to be used for drones of different role and size.

    About new designs, I would rule out to begin the design of new projects of combat helicopters that are not unmanned.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:24 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html

    For me the strongest option is the Ka-52, and the second best would be the Ka-31 (variant of the Ka-27).

    Not sure if I see the Ka-60/62 as a combat helicopter. Surely I would not order it. In the current ships that have helicopters, there is not need of an smaller (and less powerful) combat helicopter. And in the current ships that have not helicopters, if there is some space, but is not big enough for a Ka-52 or a Ka-31, it is likely to be used for drones of different role and size.

    About new designs, I would rule out to begin the design of new projects of combat helicopters that are not unmanned.

    ASW helicopter does not equal combat helicopter. Also size is being dictated by ships size. There are ASW variants of fairly small helicopters like AW159 Wildcat, AS565 Panther, Westland Lynx, Bell 212...
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:06 pm

    In my comment combat helicopters was refered to all the forms of combat roles, including ASW.

    Of course there are smaller helicopters doing this role but are fairly less powerful, and even more fragile. I do not see advantages of their use. Also I would expect the number of ships that currently have not space for a Ka-31 or Ka-52 but have space for a Ka-60 to be very small. The difference of size is not as big, and the coaxial rotor design of the Ka-31 and Ka-52 reduces the rotor diameter from what would be necessary for its size.

    To see it approximately with some numbers from the public data:

    Rotor diameter:
    14.50m Ka-50/52
    14.50m Ka-31
    13.50m Ka-60/62

    Disc area diameter (the diameter of the total area sweept by the main rotor of an helicopter):
    20.51m Ka-50/52 (330.3m2 disc area)
    ??.??m Ka-31 (I found no data but must be almost the same than for the Ka-50/52)
    13.50m Ka-60/62 (143.1m2 disc area)

    This want not to be a precise calculus of the space needed by helicopter, but maybe enough to have a proper idea about the space required by every model.

    Surely the Ka-60/62 can have more advantage in operational costs (by moving less weight), and it is useful for some non-combat roles like transport operations where is not needed as big takeoff weight. But in shipborne combat roles to use the Ka-60/62 would lead likely to lower shipborne air power by ship except in very few cases.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:08 pm

    eehnie wrote:In my comment combat helicopters was refered to all the forms of combat roles, including ASW.

    Of course there are smaller helicopters doing this role but are fairly less powerful, and even more fragile. I do not see advantages of their use. Also I would expect the number of ships that currently have not space for a Ka-31 or Ka-52 but have space for a Ka-60 to be very small. The difference of size is not as big, and the coaxial rotor design of the Ka-31 and Ka-52 reduces the rotor diameter from what would be necessary for its size.

    To see it approximately with some numbers from the public data:

    Rotor diameter:
    14.50m Ka-50/52
    14.50m Ka-31
    13.50m Ka-60/62

    Disc area diameter (the diameter of the total area sweept by the main rotor of an helicopter):
    20.51m Ka-50/52 (330.3m2 disc area)
    ??.??m Ka-31 (I found no data but must be almost the same than for the Ka-50/52)
    13.50m Ka-60/62 (143.1m2 disc area)

    This want not to be a precise calculus of the space needed by helicopter, but maybe enough to have a proper idea about the space required by every model.

    Surely the Ka-60/62 can have more advantage in operational costs (by moving less weight), and it is useful for some non-combat roles like transport operations where is not needed as big takeoff weight. But in shipborne combat roles to use the Ka-60/62 would lead likely to lower shipborne air power by ship except in very few cases.

    Main rotor sweep R does not matter much as navalised platforms mostly have folding rotor blades when stored, and outside on helipad you will have enough space most likely on any ship as 3 sides are not limiting you.

    However what does matter is helicopter hangar, and weight that helipad can take. Max takeoff weight of Ka-27PL is almost double compared to Ka-60, 12t vs 6,4t. On some ships you might even be able to have two Ka-60s instead of one Ka-32 in same hangar.

    UK also wanted to switch to Merlin-only naval arm, and it proved to be wrong, as Merlins had issue operating from small vessels, they are far more expencive to buy, operate and maintain. So Merlins shall stick to major sized ships, carriers and shore, while Wildcats will do the rest.

    US Navy SH-60 Seahawk for an example is alot more comparable to Ka-60 than Ka-27 variants in terms of weight and size.

    When its about Ka-52K i dont think it will do much of ASW role, but rather strike and ASuW.
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:13 pm

    When the diffierence is between 1 or 0 helicopters, it is necessary the space for takeoff and landing.

    As said I do not think that the Ka-60/62 would make a big difference in the number of ships that can access to have 1 helicopter.

    In other cases of ships with more helicopters it would be necessary to analyze the difference between size, the difference in combat power and the difference in range, to see if to be able to have (as example) 5 Ka-60 instead of 4 Ka-52 or Ka-31 is an improvement on the combat power of the ship or not. In a first preview, it seems to me that the difference in size (related to the space needed in the ship) is lower than the difference in weight (related to the armament carried by every helicopter). It means that the advantage can be on the side of the Ka-52 and the Ka-31.

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      Current date/time is Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:39 am