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    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:13 am

    This seems to be an BMP-3 with the newest incarnation of the AU-220M turret.

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 006912
    57mm gun with muzzle break for Derivatsia-PVO
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001314
    57mm gun without muzzle break for T-15
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001215
    57mm grenade launcher
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:The confusing thing is that the empty shell cases are the same as the S-60 shells of the high velocity gun... I thought this vehicle with no muzzle brake was firing the new 57mm grenade launcher rounds which have stub propellent charges and large projectiles like the 100mm rounds from the 100mm rifled gun on the BMP-3...

    You honestly thought that this was the 57mm automatic grenade launcher turret? This is fairly old footage of the early 57mm high velocity turret for IFVs just by the bulk of the gun it is quite obvious that it is no grenade launcher and footage of it has bee posted here I believe back in 2018 or earlier.

    The grenade launcher turret was seen fo quite a while in official minatures and cg concept art of some of the newer generation vehivles.

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 Gpp6kj10

    This image which was posted recently is surprisingly very similar to the concept art, usually the actual thing bares no resemblence to the art.

    Regardless this is probably the grenade launcher turret considering how it looks almost exactly like the concept art and the gun is only about the same size as the 30mm 2a42 but in a much larger caliber.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:47 am

    I have not seen any picture of a real 57mm grenade launcher... the pictures above are all the same gun but with one showing the base shrouded and with tubes for liquid cooling systems and a muzzle brake for high rate of fire use in the AA role and the other with the same gun with no muzzle brake or water cooling or shroud.

    An IFV needs a variety of fire power as shown by the introduction of both the BMP-1 and BMP-2 which operated together with their complimentary fire power, that were replaced by the BMP-3 which combined small calibre high rate of fire cannon and larger calibre low rate of fire heavy HE charge cannon.

    Well the 30mm cannon is no longer of much value against equivalent NATO BMPs because they are 30 ton plus vehicles that 30mm shells wont penetrate, so the solution is a high velocity 57mm gun, but such a weapon offers a much more powerful and effective HE round which makes the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 redundant too so a high velocity 57mm weapon could replace both... the high rate of fire of the 30mm for use against aircraft is compensated for with guided shells against larger targets like helos and airburst rounds against smaller targets, and the armour penetration of the 57mm would far exceed that of any 30mm shell. In terms of the 100mm gun the 57mm gun could be used to greater distances and while a smaller HE payload it appears to be quite accurate and a few extra shells should do the trick most of the time. In terms of the barrel launched 100mm guided missiles the new turret can carry Kornet missiles which have much better performance (penetration and range and speed).

    What I was thinking however is that like the 76.2mm gun of the T-34 in normal combat you actually use the main gun against soft targets so a good HE round is much more useful most of the time... so replacing the 57mm high velocity round with a 57mm grenade launcher with a HE round that is twice as powerful and compensate the loss of anti armour performance with say 12 Bulat missiles and keep the 4-8 Kornets for use against tanks or helos then you have a vehicle that can pretty much take on anything effectively.

    A mix of high velocity and grenade launcher 57mm guns in a BMP force would boost fire power and performance... the alternative would be to introduce a version with a 100mm gun and a 30mm gun like the BMP-3...

    Obviously I am only talking about the BMPs... new air defence vehicles will use high velocity 57mm guns and be used with vehicles with missiles and 30mm cannon with air burst shells for use against drones and helicopters and other air threats.
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    Post  thegopnik on Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:16 am

    https://tass.com/defense/1116721

    "The AU-220M is an unmanned cannon and machine-gun module. It is designed to serve as the armament for various combat vehicles, first of all, infantry fighting vehicles both operational (upon their upgrade) and new hardware based on the Armata, Kurganets-25 and Bumerang platforms. The module can be used as the armament of small-displacement ships and boats.

    The gun mount has a circular rotation and a firing range of up to 14.5 km with a maximum rate of fire of 80 rounds per minute. The ammunition load includes 80 unitary 57mm munitions: multifunctional remote-controlled, armor-piercing and guided projectiles, which allows effectively striking small-size unmanned aerial vehicles, low-flying aircraft and helicopters, and also land-based light-armored hardware and field fortifications."


    New range estimates are 14.5kms for 57mm.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:53 am

    Hole wrote:This seems to be an BMP-3 with the newest incarnation of the AU-220M turret.

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 006912
    57mm gun with muzzle break for Derivatsia-PVO
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001314
    57mm gun without muzzle break for T-15
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001215
    57mm grenade launcher

    These are all the same gun mounted on those turrets... have a close look at the mechanism of the gun where it enters the turret... it is shrouded on the top photo where it has a water cooling system and a muzzle brake but in the lower two images it has the same recoil management system.

    A grenade launcher would not have the same recoil management system as a high velocity 57mm gun.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    These are all the same gun mounted on those turrets... have a close look at the mechanism of the gun where it enters the turret... it is shrouded on the top photo where it has a water cooling system and a muzzle brake but in the lower two images it has the same recoil management system.

    A grenade launcher would not have the same recoil management system as a high velocity 57mm gun.


    The gun in the bottom most image is noticeably smaller than the other 2, has a shorter barrel and matches the concept art for the 57 mm grenade launcher. The barrel of the one on the T-15 BMP is almost the length of the front half of the vehicle while the showroom display turrets gun appears to about as long as the turret is wide (minus the Kornets obviously).

    The 57mm grenade launcher looks remarkably similar to the 2a42 so it would not really be a surprise if it is intended to be mounted in place of a 2a42 or even share some of the same mounts and perhaps components too. The Soviets did often use the same components for multiple guns in a similar weight class e.g. BR-2, B-4 and BR-5.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Hole wrote:This seems to be an BMP-3 with the newest incarnation of the AU-220M turret.

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 006912
    57mm gun with muzzle break for Derivatsia-PVO
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001314
    57mm gun without muzzle break for T-15
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 001215
    57mm grenade launcher

    These are all the same gun mounted on those turrets... have a close look at the mechanism of the gun where it enters the turret... it is shrouded on the top photo where it has a water cooling system and a muzzle brake but in the lower two images it has the same recoil management system.

    A grenade launcher would not have the same recoil management system as a high velocity 57mm gun.


    The bottom image is definately the grenade launcher turret

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 Zmelj
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    Post  Hole on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:04 pm

    The 57mm grenade launcher theory is based on the first models of this new turret.
    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 000250

    I still think it is a grenade launcher.

    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development - Page 13 Ags-5710
    A pic of a 57mm grenade launcher, possible successor to the AGS-30. Looks similar, except the shorter barrel.

    The fat grenade in front of the new turret would support the theory, but there is also the smaller grenade which would fit to a gun.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:20 am

    The bottom image is definately the grenade launcher turret

    The only way to be sure is to see them firing and look at the shell case that is ejected...

    A pic of a 57mm grenade launcher, possible successor to the AGS-30. Looks similar, except the shorter barrel.

    The Balkan will most likely replace the AGS-30 as it is similar in size and performance with a bit of an improvement.

    I rather suspect the 57mm grenade launcher might be used to replace the 82mm mortar in some roles in that it will likely be much heavier than 40mm or 30mm grenade launchers, but from what I have read the HE power of the 57mm grenades is equivalent to 76.2mm HE shells... which puts them in the 6-7kg of HE payload range...

    A long barrelled vehicle mounted version makes sense especially if range can be extended to 5-6km or so... which is 2-3 times more than a 40mm grenade launcher.

    The new Balkan is a 40mm grenade that is much like the 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher grenades in the sense that it is like a mortar round with no shell case... just a base mounted primer and gas holes for propellent gas to blow the round out of the tube...

    The Balkan grenades are much more powerful though with a 2.5km range and a much bigger HE payload than the 30mm rounds it will likely replace.

    Of course they might keep the AGS-30 in service in light units because it is so light and portable...

    The 57mm grenade launcher might be vehicle mounted only and would be rather interesting for light armour as a RWS or for unmanned vehicles...

    The bottom image is definately the grenade launcher turret

    I want to see it fired...
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:28 am

    any more info on whats happening to this AA system, i wouldnt have thought it was that a complex system for Russia and could have this developed and into service fairly quickly
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:54 am

    I suspect the fact that it is based on a BMP-3 is so they can get it into service if they need it (ie if it works out to be as good as its potential suggests) but can also export it to allies that need serious air defence capability like Syria and Iraq or have lots of money like Saudi Arabia...

    The Shilka is still in service so even if they put this vehicle into service now I don't think too much will change immediately... they have a finite budget and lots and lots of new systems on the verge of service entry... I mean SOSNA missiles, and the new Kornet missiles have anti air capability, not to mention drone jammers and new quad pack Pantsir missiles and various active jammers, they really are spoiled for choice...
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    Post  Hole on Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:51 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:any more info on whats happening to this AA system, i wouldnt have thought it was that a complex system for Russia and could have this developed and into service fairly quickly

    Ever heard of something called "testing" and "state acceptance trials"? The russian armed forces don´t accept systems that aren´t tested extensivly. If that means that the trial period lasts a few years so be it. That means that they receive a system that works.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:28 pm

    Hole wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:any more info on whats happening to this AA system, i wouldnt have thought it was that a complex system for Russia and could have this developed and into service fairly quickly

    Ever heard of something called "testing" and "state acceptance trials"? The russian armed forces don´t accept systems that aren´t tested extensivly. If that means that the trial period lasts a few years so be it. That means that they receive a system that works.

    of course testing but that isnt that big a deal the chassis is well proven, and they already have experience on the 57mm calibre. no missiles involved. Russia is very capable at putting this into service fairly quickly, new more advanced rounds will likely follow later
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the fact that it is based on a BMP-3 is so they can get it into service if they need it (ie if it works out to be as good as its potential suggests) but can also export it to allies that need serious air defence capability like Syria and Iraq or have lots of money like Saudi Arabia...

    The Shilka is still in service so even if they put this vehicle into service now I don't think too much will change immediately... they have a finite budget and lots and lots of new systems on the verge of service entry... I mean SOSNA missiles, and the new Kornet missiles have anti air capability, not to mention drone jammers and new quad pack Pantsir missiles and various active jammers, they really are spoiled for choice...

    yes Russia is very lucky in the fact they have a multitude of choices when it comes to air defence and various upgrades keep them up to date and lethal. i am not sure if the Russian shilkas have had the MANPAD and radar upgrade done or not.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:55 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:any more info on whats happening to this AA system, i wouldnt have thought it was that a complex system for Russia and could have this developed and into service fairly quickly

    Ever heard of something called "testing" and "state acceptance trials"? The russian armed forces don´t accept systems that aren´t tested extensivly. If that means that the trial period lasts a few years so be it. That means that they receive a system that works.

    of course testing but that isnt that big a deal the chassis is well proven, and they already have experience on the 57mm calibre. no missiles involved. Russia is very capable at putting this into service fairly quickly, new more advanced rounds will likely follow later

    Even if the chassis is proven the russian army insists that it is tested, including additional travels trough different terrains to see if the behaviour of the chassis somehow impairs the weapon system or the electronics.

    Russia is not the west were something is rushed into service and all the failures are repaired afterwards. See F-35 or the german Puma AIFV. Gibka-S is already cleared for service and the 2S38 will follow.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:33 am

    yes Russia is very lucky in the fact they have a multitude of choices when it comes to air defence and various upgrades keep them up to date and lethal. i am not sure if the Russian shilkas have had the MANPAD and radar upgrade done or not.

    I would expect radar upgrades would be for practical purposes... simply the old electronics would offer limited performance and be expensive to support now... you could probably rip out all the electronics of the vehicle and replace it with one modern laptop computer with the right inputs it would probably vastly out perform the old system by a long shot.

    I would suspect rather than fitting MANPADS they might just assign a few BMP-2s to the unit with gripstocks and missiles...

    They update most of their stuff to keep it relevant and effective and cheaper to maintain.

    The main change in computing power since the Shilka entered service was that clock speeds and computing performance were so slow that they pretty much had custom designed computer hardware for each system... the speed was terrible but because it was hardwired to do that job it worked out fast enough.

    A bit like a calculator... very slow processor but optimised for the job so it does not seem slow.

    A modern much faster processor chips could be used instead but the increase in speed would not be noticeable and would be much more expensive but no more accurate.

    The thing is that for a complex task like gathering and processing radar information and then generating fire control solutions does benefit from faster processing speed and bandwidth so a Laptop replacing an analog computer would make a tremendous improvement in speed and accuracy of fire solutions for the vehicle.

    Other bonuses is reduced power requirements less excess heat generation inside the vehicle and of course vastly reduced volume of electronics especially if the radar hardware is also improved...

    Even if the chassis is proven the russian army insists that it is tested, including additional travels trough different terrains to see if the behaviour of the chassis somehow impairs the weapon system or the electronics.

    Not only different terrains but different temperatures and weather conditions... not to mention compatibility with other systems... no point in introducing a new powerful 57mm anti aircraft system if its electronics effect other platforms and they can't operate together...

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