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    "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:37 pm

    Interlinked wrote:What's with the obsession with mortars?

    I am honestly supprised that you did not criticise my mentioning of the AO-18 6 barreled rotary cannon.

    Anyway gun mortars are great for both direct and indrect fire and powerful HEAT rounds could also be developed to further enhance thier performance.

    A gun mortar can be used as both a difect fire gun like the BMP-3s 100mm and as a mortar or artillery piece.

    The 120mm gun mortar could be chosen if you want range and performance against fortifications and the Vasilek would be for if you wanted to engage a lot of tragets in quick sucsession.



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    0nillie0

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  0nillie0 on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:50 pm

    Interlinked wrote:What's with the obsession with mortars?

    Personally i think that adding gun mortars to designated tank escorts would make operating the various weapon complexes overtly complex. This new type of vehicle will already be demanding for crews to learn to operate effectively under battlefield conditions.

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:32 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    I would say the best weapons for a BMPT would be


    • 57mm high velocity cannon
    • 2b9 Vasilek
    • 120mm gun mortar
    • 30mm AO-18
    • 4 short range SAMs
    • 4 heavy ATGMs


    Choosing between them is difficult maybe the BMPT could be designed so that you can swap out its weapons depending on the mission requirements?

    In your list, I think the best for main gun is 120mm gun/mortar that is long range and can fire both direct and indirect with various powerfull dumb and guided rounds. The secondary can be 30m gun, 40mm grenade or both of them.
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:49 am

    What's with the obsession with mortars?

    Experience in IFVs seems to show that high velocity anti armour guns and low velocity weapons with heavy HE rounds compliment each other... hence the BMP-1 was not replaced by the BMP-2... they were generally both kept in service together.... and their actual replacement vehicle had both a 30mm cannon and a 100mm low velocity gun with a large HE round.

    The fact they wanted it for HE use is proven by the fact that it was a rifled gun and not a cheaper simpler smoothbore weapon.

    Now the 100mm is still a potent weapon, but the 120mm gun/mortar is still in service and in use, so dropping the 100mm gun of the BMP-3 for a 120mm gun mortar adds range and power and eliminates a calibre from the inventory.

    The point however is that these BMPTs are not intended to replace mortar support vehicles and while they can be used in the indirect role they will generally be used in the direct fire role like the BMP-3s 100mm rifled gun.

    The difference is that it will be able to use a range of ammo including 120mm mortar rounds, 122mm kitilov guided missiles, 120mm gran guided missiles as well as shells designed for the "gun".

    the calibre is still in widespread service and not likely to disappear any time soon.

    I would say the best weapons for a BMPT would be


    57mm high velocity cannon
    2b9 Vasilek
    120mm gun mortar
    30mm AO-18
    4 short range SAMs
    4 heavy ATGMs



    Choosing between them is difficult maybe the BMPT could be designed so that you can swap out its weapons depending on the mission requirements?

    The Vasilek mortar lacks effective range compared with the 120mm mortar and 57mm gun.

    SAMs are generally big and are pretty redundant if you can fire 120mm guided rounds through the 120mm gun/mortar.

    Ditto with ATGMs.

    The 30mm cannon shells are enormous and will take up a lot of space yet not offer a lot of ready to fire rounds.

    In terms of HE power the 30mm rounds will be inferior to the 57mm rounds and the 120mm rounds, but the AP rounds will also be gravely inferior to either round too (57mm AP and 120mm HEAT).

    23mm shells are much smaller and much more compact and their low recoil means they can be fired in short bursts to spread the HE impacts around the target area rapidly.

    Another option would be 40mm grenade launchers which would also do the same though at a lower rate of fire.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:14 am

    The Uran-9 has manpads and ATGMs so I don't see why IFVs or BMPTs should have any less armament.

    "Ditto with ATGMs." What does this mean?

    As for 30mm rotary cannon the Russian military always seems to favor claiber over fire rate so I guess they could just ask KPB to make them a 57mm rotary cannon and have both.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:48 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:The Uran-9 has manpads and ATGMs so I don't see why IFVs or BMPTs should have any less armament.

    "Ditto with ATGMs." What does this mean?

    As for 30mm rotary cannon the Russian military always seems to favor claiber over fire rate so I guess they could just ask KPB to make them a 57mm rotary cannon and have both.
    The 120mm gun can fire semi-active laser guided rounds that attake and well destroy any MBT from above so no need ATGMs anymore. About the gatling 57mm gun, if created, not sure if any current platform can whistand its weigh and its recoil.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:07 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    I am honestly supprised that you did not criticise my mentioning of the AO-18 6 barreled rotary cannon.
    I thought that you were joking.
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Anyway gun mortars are great for both direct and indrect fire and powerful HEAT rounds could also be developed to further enhance thier performance.

    A gun mortar can be used as both a difect fire gun like the BMP-3s 100mm and as a mortar or artillery piece.

    The 120mm gun mortar could be chosen if you want range and performance against fortifications and the Vasilek would be for if you wanted to engage a lot of tragets in quick sucsession.

    The advantages of sticking a bunch of different systems into one platform may be outweighed by just having one cannon-type weapon and the option to mount a bunch of different missiles for different purposes, like the "Epoch" and the Uran-9 turret.

    0nillie0 wrote:
    Personally i think that adding gun mortars to designated tank escorts would make operating the various weapon complexes overtly complex. This new type of vehicle will already be demanding for crews to learn to operate effectively under battlefield conditions.

    I absolutely agree. I am favour of having just a single rapid-fire 45-57mm autocannon paired with a few externally mounted large caliber ATGMs.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:21 am

    Interlinked wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    I am honestly supprised that you did not criticise my mentioning of the AO-18 6 barreled rotary cannon.
    I thought that you were joking.

    No I was not a vehicle with 2 or 4 AO-18s could wipe out sizable formations of enemy infantry and light armor in a very short amount of time while a 57mm could not but the 57mm does have the advantage in range and armor penetration.

    If your target is 100 infantry and 20 LAV-25s then the AO-18 is clearly the weapon best suited for the job.

    If you target is 5 CV-90s then the 57mm weapon is best suited for that role.

    Maybe there should be 2 difforent configurations of BMPT.
    a long range BMPT with a 120mm gun mortar and a 57mm autocannon
    and a short range BMPT with 2 AO-18s some unguided rockets and some ATGMs

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    GarryB

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:19 am

    The Uran-9 has manpads and ATGMs so I don't see why IFVs or BMPTs should have any less armament.


    Uran-9 is a robot designed for a variety of roles that is too small to carry a 120mm or 100mm gun so gun tube launched ATGMs or SAMs are not really an option.

    The BMPT already carries Ataka missiles that come in HEAT and HE Frag versions for anti armour use and also anti aircraft/soft target use.

    The BMP-3 already has 100mm guided missiles to do the same.

    Neither vehicle needs additional externally mounted weapons that could be damaged in combat or require crew to climb around the outside of the vehicle to reload.

    "Ditto with ATGMs." What does this mean?

    Means "the same for".

    The arguments given for SAMs also apply to the use of ATGMs.

    In other words I said:

    SAMs are generally big and are pretty redundant if you can fire 120mm guided rounds through the 120mm gun/mortar.

    Ditto with ATGMs.

    Which basically means:

    SAMs are generally big and are pretty redundant if you can fire 120mm guided rounds through the 120mm gun/mortar.

    ATGMs are generally big and are pretty redundant if you can fire 120mm guided rounds through the 120mm gun/mortar.


    As for 30mm rotary cannon the Russian military always seems to favor claiber over fire rate so I guess they could just ask KPB to make them a 57mm rotary cannon and have both.

    Rotary cannons are useful for 30mm rounds because the increase in rate of fire means it can put up small unaimed interceptors more rapidly... think of it in terms of a shotgun blast sending up hundreds of small pellets per shot to intercept small fast moving targets.

    It makes no sense to make large calibre guns into rotary cannons when such larger calibres rely on guided shells for interception performance or air burst rounds rather than rate of fire.

    About the gatling 57mm gun, if created, not sure if any current platform can whistand its weigh and its recoil.

    Its size and weight alone would make it fairly useless, and no matter what rate of fire it achieved the capacity for any vehicle to carry ammo for it would be limited... there is no point having a 20 ton gatling gun that has space left for 40 rounds of ammo because the gun is too big and the stabilising mechanism is huge...

    The systems shown carry a maximum of 140 rounds, so 120 rounds per minute is plenty...

    The advantages of sticking a bunch of different systems into one platform may be outweighed by just having one cannon-type weapon and the option to mount a bunch of different missiles for different purposes, like the "Epoch" and the Uran-9 turret.

    Exactly... Hollywood and computer game land vs reality... you might carry 10 different assault rifles in a computer game, but in the real world you carry rather different weapon types to offer differing capabilities and you might have a back up weapon or two.

    Instead of carrying an SA-80 and an FAMAS and a Steyr and an M4 all in 5.56mm, you'd pick one and just carry the weight of the three guns you leave behind in extra ammo.

    I absolutely agree. I am favour of having just a single rapid-fire 45-57mm autocannon paired with a few externally mounted large caliber ATGMs.

    I am not suggesting using this vehicle as a mortar carrier replacement... the gun/mortar is there as a replacement for the BMP-3s 100mm gun in the direct fire role with a heavy HE payload with a backup capacity to engage point targets at extended range with guided rounds and of course small aerial targets too.


    No I was not a vehicle with 2 or 4 AO-18s could wipe out sizable formations of enemy infantry and light armor in a very short amount of time while a 57mm could not but the 57mm does have the advantage in range and armor penetration.

    The Tunguska has about 2,000 rounds of ready to fire ammo on board and most other vehicles wont carry that much more.

    The extreme rate of fire of the AO-18 is to hit small manouvering targets rapidly... ground targets don't need that sort of rate of fire so bursts would be used instead of long continuous automatic fire... if rate of fire is needed then two twin barrel 2A38M guns is perfectly adequate for the job of obliterating groups of enemy in the open... and tunguska and pantsir vehicles are already in service... the Armata versions will have plenty of armour for a role on the front line dealing with enemy hard points... of course a direct fire 120mm gun/mortar would do a better job against sandbag bunkers...


    If your target is 100 infantry and 20 LAV-25s then the AO-18 is clearly the weapon best suited for the job.

    Actually no.

    Against 20 Lavs a 57mm gun with semi armour piercing HE rounds would be devastating... each shot would really fuck them up... while air burst 57mm rounds above the ground those 100 infantry just lay flat on would be vastly more effective than trying to hit them with thousands of 30mm rounds... of course the 30mm option would look more impressive with dust and crap everywhere but the gunner wont know if he is hitting flesh or hitting just dirt with big long bursts.



    If you target is 5 CV-90s then the 57mm weapon is best suited for that role.

    Yeah.... odds are you are not going to get that sort of thing happening... the enemy will have a range of target vehicles present and all will be firing back at you... the 57mm gun means you can fire from further away and still get good kills.

    A 120mm gun/mortar with guided rounds also means standoff range...

    Maybe there should be 2 difforent configurations of BMPT.
    a long range BMPT with a 120mm gun mortar and a 57mm autocannon
    and a short range BMPT with 2 AO-18s some unguided rockets and some ATGMs

    BMPTs are used to attack light armour and enemy infantry and are intended to support tanks.

    I rather suspect they will come in two configurations... both with 57mm weapons... one high velocity and one grenade launcher.

    The one with the grenade launcher as the main gun will have a battery of Bulat short range ATGMs and a couple of big Kornet missiles for tanks, with its grenade launcher for use against soft targets and infantry, while the other model with the high velocity 57mm gun would likely also have Bulat and Kornet, but be more oriented for use against enemy mechanised forces.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:23 pm

    Actually I just had an even better idea how about 4 76mm rotary cannon.

    It would provide effectiveness in almost all areas.


    • short range anti air
    • artillery
    • anti light armor
    • destruction of soft targets


    You cannot argue against the effectiveness of 4 76mm rotary cannon.

    Although you probably will try because people on this forum generally seem to have any and all heavy weapons and favor arguments like "you don't need a big gun when you have precision rounds" regardless of the fact that miniturized rounds simply don't do enough damage.

    Or how people here will deffend the disgusting insult to Russian tank indistry that is the T-90 and completely ignore the concept of armor protection.

    The bottom line is your 1 gram of high explosive can be as precise as you like it still will not compare to the RDS-220 and as for tanks mobility and speed is irellivant when you are dead.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:25 am

    You know, most people are constrained by reality...
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:52 am

    Fortunately the loons who are not constrained by reality don't generally get the contracts...
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:23 am

    Clearly some people lack the mental ability to comprehend a joke.

    There us currently no requirement for a vehilce with 4 76mm rotary cannon but that can always change.


    I am mocking peoples obsession with ineffective lightweight platforms and hate of more potent heavy playforms.

    Heavy tanks are not invincible but they are far more likey to survive and thay bring more powerful weapons to battle.

    Heavy artillery offers superior range and firepower.




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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:33 pm

    You can't claim to be joking every time your ideas get criticized. You have to take responsibility for your words, or at some point, everyone will just learn to think that everything you ever say is a joke. At that point, you'll be just that - a joke.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:44 pm

    Interlinked wrote:You can't claim to be joking every time your ideas get criticized. You have to take responsibility for your words, or at some point, everyone will just learn to think that everything you ever say is a joke. At that point, you'll be just that - a joke.

    I will occasionally make such jokes as a way to mock haters of heavy systems clearly you have not read through my earlier posts.

    The-thing-next-door. wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.
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    ZoA

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  ZoA on Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:Fortunately the loons who are not constrained by reality don't generally get the contracts...

    I would not be so sure abut that. Have you heard of Elon Musk?
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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:22 am

    He's not on the Russian payroll... Smile
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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:39 am

    ZoA wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Fortunately the loons who are not constrained by reality don't generally get the contracts...

    I would not be so sure abut that. Have you heard of Elon Musk?



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    flamming_python

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:16 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    ZoA wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Fortunately the loons who are not constrained by reality don't generally get the contracts...

    I would not be so sure abut that. Have you heard of Elon Musk?



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    George1

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:24 am

    First prototype of the latest self-propelled air-defence system Derivatsiya-PVO is undergoing preliminary testing. The unmanned 57mm gun module shall eventually be installed on Armata Universal Combat Platform(UBP).



    https://ria.ru/arms/20180330/1517596164.html
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:40 am

    George1 wrote:First prototype of the latest self-propelled air-defence system Derivatsiya-PVO is undergoing preliminary testing. The unmanned 57mm gun module shall eventually be installed on Armata Universal Combat Platform(UBP).



    https://ria.ru/arms/20180330/1517596164.html

    Will it have ATGMs?
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    Hole

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:10 pm

    No ATGM´s. Air Defence System.
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:38 am

    It has that machine gun mounted externally on its side with a large ammo box... hard to see the other side but I doubt it would be too hard to mount some Kornet-EM or SOSNA-R missiles as a backup... both are laser beam riding so it should not take much to add that feature to the electronics package...

    Kornet is an ATGM but in the EM model has a 10km range missile with a HE warhead that can be used against flying targets... though its speed of roughly mach 1 would make it a fairly long engagement.

    SOSNA-R on the other hand is a two stage missile with a very fast accelerating missile with a very high flight speed and a 10km range that would be a very useful compliment to such a vehicle in the air defence role.
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    Hole

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:08 pm

    I don´t think the Russians will mix this systems together. The Point of the 57mm gun is that you don´t need a missile to reach targets 8 - 10 km away (like Tunguska).

    The MG is useful against infantry. And possibly small drones.
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Derivation" 57mm AA gun development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:35 am

    A missile would compliment a gun in the sense that a hard manouvering target would be a very difficult target for a gun round... even a guided one as it has a limited ability to manouver. In comparison the SOSNA-R missile should be able to turn quite a bit out to its max range and still hit a small target.

    These are not big heavy missiles and they are relatively cheap.

    If the 57mm gun uses rounds with air burst ammo controlled by coded laser beams the aiming system could easily be adapted to use laser beam riding missiles.

    The EO systems actually already look very similar to the EO systems on the SOSNA-R vehicle system...

    In other words a minor software and hardware upgrade and a minor increase in weight you get quite a significant performance increase.

    The MG looks like a PKT, which could probably hit small targets to about 1km-1.2km range without having to use too much ammo... at that range an air burst 57mm shell would be far more effective...

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