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    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:43 pm

    ..don't buy anything of strategic value from them either with the current leaderships.
    I doubt they can even offer anything of strategic value to Russia.
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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:Micron didn't change French policy towards Russia until it was pretty clear it wasn't working and the Russians didn't collapse and fold like the other countries you mistreat.

    If you want to give him credit for anything, it would be suppressing internal protestors, and seeing which way the wind is blowing and acting on that faster than others.

    It is like Ireland with their booming economy because they have low tax rates which makes big international companies base their centre of operations there... sounds good on paper, but when things turn bad and they turn to the really big really rich companies to pay a little more tax to help the economy in tough times watch them run away and just leave you.

    Micron couldn't give a shit about Russia and if the US and NATO were invading he would not likely object... he wouldn't join in, but he would stop them either... he would stand back and then look at the results before deciding what to say... ie whose side to be on... you know... he is French.

    You don't call a strong country Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys...

    Well that's what France is trying to do, with Germany also supporting it - basically settling the war in the Ukraine, and getting back to business with Russia.

    What is the point... the Ukrainians could poison another Russian in Britain and any new business is off again... europe is fragile and unreliable, and still basically russophobic... most of the people who agreed sanctions or renewed them are still in power... the exception being May replaced by Boris... which means russophobic stupid bitch replaced by russophobic censored .

    Yeah, I know Putin would say they are neighbours and we have to work together... yeah... the whole reason behind NATO is to counter Russia, so I would say don't create any ties you don't want to cut... use the current good will to get rid of the sanctions and then make a bit of money, but don't trust them and don't buy anything of strategic value from them either with the current leaderships.

    Well we are here to stay. So good relations with France and rest of Europe are a core interest of Russia.

    Its funny you take an insult americans use for us because WW II. You know that WW I was mostly fought on my countries soil? How much France did in that war?

    Our country is also called "La Grande Nation".
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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:53 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..don't buy anything of strategic value from them either with the current leaderships.
    I doubt they can even offer anything of strategic value to Russia.

    What do you like about our french military products? Whats the pros and cons?

    I would prefer a friendly and adult conversation.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:28 pm

    It's not a ? of what I like or dislike about the French conventional arms (that r not even strategic), but what Russia can get that she can't from anywhere else.
    Cancelled Mistrals deal is a case in point- they'll build their own such ships in Crimea, & its reunification with RF was opposed by France.
    What other assets/capabilities does France have to make Russia & her people happier? Russian tourists can already visit Paris & Tahiti; mil. bases on French islands r not needed as Russia already has access to Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, India, PRC, Vietnam, Mozambique, & Syria.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:15 pm



    Six Years Into Its Africa Foray the French Army Is Bogged Down and Losing Ground

    https://www.checkpointasia.net/six-years-into-its-africa-foray-the-french-army-is-bogged-down-and-losing-ground/

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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:10 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's not a ? of what I like or dislike about the French conventional arms (that r not even strategic), but what Russia can get that she can't from anywhere else.
    Cancelled Mistrals deal is a case in point- they'll build their own such ships in Crimea, & its reunification with RF was opposed by France.
    What other assets/capabilities does France have to make Russia & her people happier? Russian tourists can already visit Paris & Tahiti; mil. bases on French islands r not needed as Russia already has access to Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, India, PRC, Vietnam, Mozambique, & Syria.

    A powerful economy, acess to G7. A friend at the UN security council, partner in gas and oil trade. Partner in space exploration
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Six Years Into Its Africa Foray the French Army Is Bogged Down and Losing Ground

    The French have been bogged down in Africa ever since they decided to colonise it. This is just an extension of that imperialism.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:34 pm

    A powerful economy, acess to G7. A friend at the UN security council, partner in gas and oil trade. Partner in space exploration
    Russia isn't in hurry to break bread with with the G-7.  
    The UNSC isn't as relevant as before- the balance in World affairs is being settled by raising Russia & China who have the veto tower & r getting allied with each other; Russia knows that France is pursuing her short term interests that may/will change later & backstab her- as the French saying goes: only ur friends/partners can betray u.
    Germany is already their partner in oil/gas trade, what will change on a strategic level if France signs new contracts? Will it forever divorce her from the US/UK/NATO?
    How advanced is the French space industry compared to Russia's? Russia sells rocket engines to the US, has several tracking ships, space ports, & if needed, can build more in the tropics to launch increased payloads.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:04 am

    GarryB wrote:You are confusing Micron with France and France with Micron.

    The risk for Russia of better cooperation with Europe, is to become more like europe... which is the worst possible future for Russia.

    Europe (the EU) I want Russia to stay away from.

    It's dominated by unelected beurocrats with pretenses at a European-wide empire, and Russophobic Eastern European states.

    But building ties with individual EU states I'm always pro.
    France, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Slovakia... these can be some of Russia's key partners in Europe for the next decade

    And France is the most powerful of those. I'd say they have plenty to offer in terms of economical ties, high-tech joint-ventures (including some joint defense products perhaps for 3rd markets), political pull in the EU, influence in Africa, their space launch centre in South America and so on. Conversely Russia also has plenty to offer back, probably the most significant of which is a balance to France's dependence on the US, but also agricultural joint-ventures, certain military technology, pull with other ex-Soviet states, space rocketry and so on.
    France and French culture have good reputations in Russia, it's a good foundation on which to build tourism, student exchanges and cultural co-operation too.

    But of course it's up to France. Russia is ready to fulfill it's side of the Minsk agreements, and no it won't give up the Crimea. It's up to each EU country to decide whether that's acceptable for it or not, Russia can't force any views on anyone.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:52 am

    So good relations with France and rest of Europe are a core interest of Russia.

    No it isn't, because history has shown the only time Russia has good relations with the west is when a yesman is in charge in Russia like Yeltsin who said yes to everything the west wanted.

    If that is the price of good relations then Russia is better off with bad relations as there are currently.

    Current bad relations are the decision of the EU, Russia cannot influence that one way or the other.

    Its funny you take an insult americans use for us because WW II. You know that WW I was mostly fought on my countries soil? How much France did in that war?

    You constantly go on about how deceitful France is and how it screws other countries all the time and has people murdered around the world, but you also want respect?

    Good luck with that.


    Our country is also called "La Grande Nation".

    The fact that La Grande looks like French I would say what a country is called by people from that country is less important than what other people from other countries call it.

    A powerful economy, acess to G7.

    Why would Russia even be interested in joining that again?

    Putin has already said there is no value in a G8, and that a G20 makes rather more sense because it includes countries that want to talk to Russia and discuss things... the US and EU don't discuss... they lecture.

    A friend at the UN security council, partner in gas and oil trade.

    A friend at the UNSC... what is that?

    A partner that might drop out of any contract because their might be EU or US sanctions that stop them...

    Partner in space exploration

    Possible, but not really hugely important on the scheme of things.

    But building ties with individual EU states I'm always pro.
    France, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Slovakia... these can be some of Russia's key partners in Europe for the next decade

    Not so sure about France, they have proven unreliable... maybe with Le Penn in power...

    The huge irony about France is that it wouldnt listen to anyone else regarding nuclear tests in the pacific, but Russia must do as it is told regarding the Crimea. Here... have some sanctions until you agree to be a good boy and do as you are told.

    I think the last thing Russia should do is try to emulate France in its relations with countries in Africa and Asia and central and south america...
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:03 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Six Years Into Its Africa Foray the French Army Is Bogged Down and Losing Ground

    The French have been bogged down in Africa ever since they decided to colonise it.  This is just an extension of that imperialism.  

    I dont see it that way. We have the cheapest energy prices in the world. Get uranium for free plus alot of other rescources. Copper, iron, nickel, cobalt ect. This gives our companies an edge above others and should be kept that way.
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:13 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    A powerful economy, acess to G7. A friend at the UN security council, partner in gas and oil trade. Partner in space exploration
    Russia isn't in hurry to break bread with with the G-7.  
    The UNSC isn't as relevant as before- the balance in World affairs is being settled by raising Russia & China who have the veto tower & r getting allied with each other; Russia knows that France is pursuing her short term interests that may/will change later & backstab her- as the French saying goes: only ur friends/partners can betray u.
    Germany is already their partner in oil/gas trade, what will change on a strategic level if France signs new contracts? Will it forever divorce her from the US/UK/NATO?
    How advanced is the French space industry compared to Russia's? Russia sells rocket engines to the US, has several tracking ships, space ports, & if needed, can build more in the tropics to launch increased payloads.

    China is no partner of russia. It wants siberia and will take it. It already sends more and more people into the area to settle it. Putin knows that.

    Russias space program is basicly collapsed. Its bound to LEO and had not an interplanetry mission since 40 years. While France Ariane is world 2nd only behind Space X, Russias market share in space launches collapsed.

    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy - Page 8 Sacex1

    The americans heavily and illegally subsidize spacex. Since 2010 russias launches have fallen drastical. We can counter it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:21 am

    While France Ariane is world 2nd only behind Space X, Russias market share in space launches collapsed.

    Hahahaha... so what is France going to do... share some space launches with Russia?

    Of course the Americans are cheating... that is what they do, but when their economy starts to stutter and people stop trading in US dollars... which they are doing now they wont have the money to throw around that they currently have and things will start to become much more realistic.

    Launching other peoples satellites isn't a huge priority for Russia right now...

    France has more chance of taking Siberia from Russia than China has... Japan has more chance of getting the Kurile islands back... neither of which have anything to do with cooperation between France and Russia.
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    While France Ariane is world 2nd only behind Space X, Russias market share in space launches collapsed.

    Hahahaha... so what is France going to do... share some space launches with Russia?

    Of course the Americans are cheating... that is what they do, but when their economy starts to stutter and people stop trading in US dollars... which they are doing now they wont have the money to throw around that they currently have and things will start to become much more realistic.

    Launching other peoples satellites isn't a huge priority for Russia right now...

    France has more chance of taking Siberia from Russia than China has... Japan has more chance of getting the Kurile islands back... neither of which have anything to do with cooperation between France and Russia.

    Within 9 years the russian market share in space launches collapsed from almost 60% down to 6%.

    What we can do? Cooperate. SpaceX is a one trick pony. Their Falcon 9 lacks cargo capacity and also safety. Alot of them blow up.

    Our Ariane V is far more powerful, more reliable. The russian system has the same cargo capacity as Space X but is more reliable as them.

    So whats the problem now? if you have expensive or heavy cargo you chose the french Ariane. If you want it cheap, you chose SpaceX.

    That has to change. SpaceX is only cheap because massive funds from US government. Illegal funds.

    If France and Russia work together, we can offer totally different approach. For heavy cargo Ariane V as before. For less heavy cargo russian Soyuz. We can share launch pads. We can share landing places.

    We can share missions. We plan a mission to Jupiters moon Europa. Russia could join it. Why not?
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    Post  Kimppis on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:18 pm

    Aristide wrote:China is no partner of russia. It wants siberia and will take it. It already sends more and more people into the area to settle it. Putin knows that.

    OK, this is absolute horseshit, statistically as well, a myth. China's border regions are sparsely populated and it's not exactly experiencing a baby boom. In addition, Russia has a powerful military and most importantly, nukes. Wishful thinking, nothing else.
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:20 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    Aristide wrote:China is no partner of russia. It wants siberia and will take it. It already sends more and more people into the area to settle it. Putin knows that.

    OK, this is absolute horseshit, statistically as well, a myth. China's border regions are sparsely populated and it's not exactly experiencing a baby boom. In addition, Russia has a powerful military and most importantly, nukes. Wishful thinking, nothing else.

    China sees this different

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2100228/chinese-russian-far-east-geopolitical-time-bomb

    Coming from the south china times.

    Btw Putin was in Paris few days ago at funeral of ex president Chirac.

    Putin saw Chirac not just as president but personal friend.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:53 pm

    China sees this different
    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2100228/chinese-russian-far-east-geopolitical-time-bomb

    Coming from the south china times.
    That paper isn't a CCP/gov. mouthpiece. Nationalists there have their dreams- Mussolini also wanted to recreate the Roman Empire in N. Africa. China will expand to underpopulated SE Asia, where many ethnic Chinese already present, not the RFE & Siberia. They have more to gain by trading, exercising, patrolling with & learning from each other than by reviving border disputes & creating a 5th column in Russia.
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    Post  Kimppis on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:56 pm

    I have no idea what that article is supposed to prove. For one thing, SCMP is Hong Kong-based, it's not an "official" state media (and even if it were that would mean very little; the westerners' understanding of the term is very propagandistic and simplistic). Secondly, the author is Russian, who's based in Japan. And most importantly, the article is actually mild and relatively objective (the usual tropes about the Russian economy notwithstanding).

    Look, "critics" of course exist on both sides. So do real issues and valid criticisms, but in Russia especially, these Sinophobes are are almost always pro-Western liberals, for obvious reasons. They would welcome American tanks with open arms. Doesn't matter; the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

    Yes, it seems Chirac shared quite a few similarities with Putin. That's actually a good comparison, along with leaders like Roosevelt, De Gaulle, Kekkonen (instead of Hitler and Stalin), if one tried to be objective. So what's the difference? Surely those are numerous as well, but the important one is that one of them is Russian, representing the Russian state.

    As PapaDragon put it, "Europeans would all rather drink antifreeze and die than follow Russia. They are trying to exterminate it not follow it." That's a beautiful quote, btw, and I'm more convinced than ever that it's actually accurate. (Oh, and maybe not as a people, though even that's somewhat debatable IMO, but certainly as a unified state.)
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:41 pm

    Kimppis wrote:I have no idea what that article is supposed to prove. For one thing, SCMP is Hong Kong-based, it's not an "official" state media (and even if it were that would mean very little; the westerners' understanding of the term is very propagandistic and simplistic). Secondly, the author is Russian, who's based in Japan. And most importantly, the article is actually mild and relatively objective (the usual tropes about the Russian economy notwithstanding).

    Look, "critics" of course exist on both sides. So do real issues and valid criticisms, but in Russia especially, these Sinophobes are are almost always pro-Western liberals, for obvious reasons. They would welcome American tanks with open arms. Doesn't matter; the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

    Yes, it seems Chirac shared quite a few similarities with Putin. That's actually a good comparison, along with leaders like Roosevelt, De Gaulle, Kekkonen (instead of Hitler and Stalin), if one tried to be objective. So what's the difference? Surely those are numerous as well, but the important one is that one of them is Russian, representing the Russian state.

    As PapaDragon put it, "Europeans would all rather drink antifreeze and die than follow Russia. They are trying to exterminate it not follow it." That's a beautiful quote, btw, and I'm more convinced than ever that it's actually accurate. (Oh, and maybe not as a people, though even that's somewhat debatable IMO, but certainly as a unified state.)

    So you see Putin as pro western liberal?

    He clearly sees China as a threat. He would be idiotic not to. Nations have interests, not friends. Its idiotic to believe that China would not steamroll Russia whenever it gets the chance.

    That said, of course no European would "follow" Russia. Why should we? We want cooperation and friendly relations with Russia. France works on that. That doesnt mean follow. Follow means submission. You obviously only know slaves or death?

    What we want is friendly cooperation and better relations. I believe thats in France best interests.

    As for Chirac and Putin, both were close personal friends. Together with german chancellor Schroder they formed a group that opossed USA.

    Putin had very close relation with Chirac, even when Chirac was long retired. Putin came to the funeral not as a state guest but as a private man and that says alot.
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    Post  Kimppis on Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:13 pm

    Not exactly, but he's more "liberal" and pro-Western than the average Russian, which might come as a shock to those who get their Russia coverage from the Western media.

    He very clearly DOESN'T see China as a threat (anytime soon). I agree that nations don't really have friends, but it's very much in both nations' interest to cooperate in the face of America's pressure and hegemonic ambitions. And that won't change for some time.

    Regarding "steamrolling"... What do you even mean by that, exactly? The annexation of the Far East? Russia is certainly strong to enough to defend itself (again: if everything else somehow fails, they have nukes), although it's almost touching how, all of a sudden, Westerners seem to care so much about the "well-being" of Russia's Far East. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes  

    Well, Europeans certainly want to follow the US. Looks like submission to me. If I remember correctly, you disagreed with that assessment. Either way, at least you don't want to follow America's lead. So we can at least agree on that.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:22 pm

    I fully agree on Russian and French space tech and services co-operation. They compliment each other and so are natural partners. I believe Russia is already co-operating with France in the Guiana space centre
    There is some recent progress on this front: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2019/09/05/france-russia-agree-to-expand-space-cooperation/

    Equally Russia should also co-operate with NASA, with the Chinese, Indian, Japanese space agencies. These are exclusive either-or's. No-one's saying that closer co-operation with France has to come at the expense of China. Perhaps this is what Macron hopes for, perhaps not, but Russia has its own plans and interests regardless.

    The more countries Russia has close relations with, and the more countries Russia has joint-projects with, the better for Russia's international position and its economy.

    There are prospects for joint military projects as well, which could be sold to France-orientated African countries with smaller budgets, or conversely to Middle Eastern and Asian states that are at the moment under pressure by the US to not buy Russian. A Franco-Russian defence system may get around that. France's defense industries will also stand to benefit by getting access to cheaper but effective Russian technologies and ways of doing things.

    Other than that, France is also strong in energy, in agriculture, wine-making, the IT & telecoms sector. All opportunities for investment and joint-ventures with Russian companies in.

    It's all up to France. I've long had the impression based on official statements and so on, that Russia has been ready for all such steps for a long time.
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    Post  Aristide on Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:31 pm

    Kimppis wrote:Not exactly, but he's more "liberal" and pro-Western than the average Russian, which might come as a shock to those who get their Russia coverage from the Western media.

    He very clearly DOESN'T see China as a threat (anytime soon). I agree that nations don't really have friends, but it's very much in both nations' interest to cooperate in the face of America's pressure and hegemonic ambitions. And that won't change for some time.

    Regarding "steamrolling"... What do you even mean by that, exactly? The annexation of the Far East? Russia is certainly strong to enough to defend itself (again: if everything else somehow fails, they have nukes), although it's almost touching how, all of a sudden, Westerners seem to care so much about the "well-being" of Russia's Far East. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes  

    Well, Europeans certainly want to follow the US. Looks like submission to me. If I remember correctly, you disagreed with that assessment. Either way, at least you don't want to follow America's lead. So we can at least agree on that.

    Since when wants France follow USA? We are rivals and it gets more and more hostile by the day.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:30 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    Aristide wrote:China is no partner of russia. It wants siberia and will take it. It already sends more and more people into the area to settle it. Putin knows that.

    OK, this is absolute horseshit, statistically as well, a myth. China's border regions are sparsely populated and it's not exactly experiencing a baby boom. In addition, Russia has a powerful military and most importantly, nukes. Wishful thinking, nothing else.


    Correct

    Everything other than coastal regions of China is not only sparsely populated but is also being depopulated at a rapid pace, everyone is moving to the coastal cities

    Also everyone keeps forgetting that China barely even borders with Russia, their line of contact is miniscule

    It's Mongolia and Kazakhstan that have huge borders with China, large empty territories ripe for the taking and no military or nuclear arsenal to defend them with so if Chinese are to invade anything it will be those two (plus usual suspects to the South and across the seas)

    But given that they can barely fill out their own empty real estate I doubt they will be invading anyone in this millennium

    Picture speaks louder than thousand words:

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:38 pm

    "China will invade Siberia" Meanwhile Russia is developing their Early Warning radars. Rolling Eyes Wink
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:25 pm

    It's Mongolia and Kazakhstan that have huge borders with China,..
    for this very reason, Russia will prevent any complete Chinese takeover of them; those buffer states give Russia strategic depth against Beijing.
    In the France-RF-PRC triangle, if France wants deeper relations with Russia, she'll need to develop deeper relations with China, most probably at some expense to India. That in turn will show that she isn't really dancing to the US tune.
    As for India, it's a regional colossus on feet of clay. Her border with China isn't that long, but borders with Pakistan, Bhutan & Nepal should be added to it- those nations r either allied with or getting closer to the PRC. That's why, unlike China, she bribes her way among the bigger players &/ acts obliging, trying to play them off against each other. That will buy her some time, but eventually she'll be forced to join Russia & China in a triangle ruling most of Eurasia.

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