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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:12 pm

    I believe by 2020, most or all of the 671 (Victor III) boats will be decommissioned.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:43 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:I believe by 2020, most or all of the 671 (Victor III) boats will be decommissioned.


    Who knows, but who would have expected to see 4 Sierra boats back in the service and modernized. Sierras was that one class,

    most of us thought would be decommissioned and scraped. Now Victor class is cheapest of all attack boats to operate with good attack

    and and other qualities. If Russian navy needs numbers Victor class is a good bang for the buck.

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    russian nuclear submarine force

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:45 pm

    I also see the 671RTMKs to be the first to go before 2020. No modernizations are planned for them AFAIK.
    Also I suspect we will see closer to 9 modernized and operational 971s by 2020, not the entire "nominal" fleet today.
    949 is unclear, but by 2020 the oldest may very well be withdrawn. I see the fleet shrinking steadily by 2020, but maintaining core capability. By that time new subs should be arriving that older ones can be decommission anwyays.
    And ofc I am absolutely convinced 8 885s in service by 2020 will not be met. Laid down maybe, hopefully all launched.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  dionis on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:03 am

    Well if they're keeping these around, they had better be working on more 650mm torpedoes. The Oscars aren't going anywhere for a while either..

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:49 am

    These days with minuturisation of Electronics , Development of Power Motor powered by high density Li Ion battery , a 533 mm torpedo is as or far more capable then the 80's developed 650 mm Torpedo.

    So torpedoes current and future will be 533 mm type and newer submarine will come only with 533 mm Torpedoes.

    They can use Liners in 650 mm TT to fire 533 mm Torpedoes

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:58 pm

    These days with minuturisation of Electronics , Development of Power Motor powered by high density Li Ion battery , a 533 mm torpedo is as or far more capable then the 80's developed 650 mm Torpedo.

    Which means a modern 650mm torpedo would be even better today.

    The primary function of the heavies was a standoff capability against carrier groups etc, a mission as relevant today as it was in the 1980s... the potential for improved performance however is enormous.

    At the end of the day however, the main feature of the 650s was their much larger and heavier warhead which could do enormous damage to even very large vessels.

    Experience has shown that even multiple hits on large civilian vessels have trouble in sinking them... cargo vessels don't have vulnerable weapons and ammo stores or large fuel storage areas, and the biggest risk to most vessels is fire when using anti ship missiles.

    Using torpedoes on the other hand, a good solid hit should be able to sink even the biggest civilian vessel, and carriers would be far more vulnerable to half a dozen long range torpedoes than a similar number of anti ship missiles.


    Their best defence would be high speed, which makes them easier to detect and track from long range due to the noise that would make...

    An added bonus is that a 650mm torpedo tube is easier for divers to climb out of, and could provide a much larger and more useful under water vehicle for divers to approach enemy waters...


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:12 am

    I haven't heard anything about new 650mm torpedo production.
    Safe to count that out.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:25 am

    GarryB wrote:Which means a modern 650mm torpedo would be even better today.

    Yes but its not needed when a 533 mm can do the job equally well and with less heavier and more smaller dimension a sub can carry more number of the same torpedo then say bigger 650 mm types.

    The primary function of the heavies was a standoff capability against carrier groups etc, a mission as relevant today as it was in the 1980s... the potential for improved performance however is enormous.

    Agreed but that was 60'70'80 , today you can punch more bang for the same warhead and try to finish the job , may be at best for a big carrier like Nimitz 2 torpedoes of UGST-M would be good enough to slowly sink it. Even a single hit may be a mission kill and the carrier may end up being static at sea making it a happy target for other assets or more torpedoes.

    An added bonus is that a 650mm torpedo tube is easier for divers to climb out of, and could provide a much larger and more useful under water vehicle for divers to approach enemy waters...

    Well yes its more comfortable to swim out of a 650 mm Tube but the Americans swim out via VLS tube so perhaps with Yasen having VLS tube they can do that as well.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:02 am

    I haven't heard anything about new 650mm torpedo production.
    Safe to count that out.

    Perhaps if it was secret then you might also not have heard anything, so it becomes safe to count on it as fact... Smile Razz

    One has to ask oneself why production was stopped... if it was because there was no money and most of the subs with that calibre tube were not available for service then once they are upgraded then both of these reasons disappear...


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:26 pm

    Secret or not but Yasen does not have 650 mm tube and the last Akula by Russian Navy Gepard does not have 650 mm Tube both have 533 mm TT.

    Thats a good indication we might not see the likes of 650 mm Torpedoes in the future

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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:47 am

    AFAIK one of the main useful features of the 650mm tube was the other weapons it could fire like the Grannat (SS-N-21) and I think either the SS-N-15 or 16.

    With the upgrades they will likely either replace them with 533s or perhaps they might explore larger weapons.

    I suspect the main reason for dropping them would be it is cheaper and easier to have VLS missiles for weapons like the Kalibr family.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:24 am

    Nice  thumbsup 

    Russian Navy by 2020 will add to more than 10 modernized attack submarines

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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force:2

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:33 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup 

    Russian Navy by 2020 will add to more than 10 modernized attack submarines

    So life increased by half would be 12-15 years after modernisation

    The exact number is 12 Submarine will be modernised

    6 Akula , 4 Oscar 2 , 2 Sierra-2  and 8 new Yasen class.

    So if all goes according to plans and funding provided , Russia will have 20 SSN/SSGN by 2020

    I just hope after what has happened in Ukraine they dont reduce defence funding for SAP 2020 and SAP 2015-2025 even if they have to eat grass.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:53 pm

    Wooooo Interview withCEO CB "Malachite" Vladimir Dorofeev on Severdvinisk/Yasen Sub   thumbsup 


    http://www.rg.ru/2014/06/17/yasen-site.html

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:19 pm

    http://in.rbth.com/economics/2013/08/09/yasen-class_nuclear_attack_submarines_to_give_russia_major_edge_28201.html

    http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/09/29/new_cruise_missiles_for_russian_navy_38645.html

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:49 pm

    Amazing Photos Of Russia Dismantling An Outdated Nuclear Submarine

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    Borei-class SSΒΝ vs Virginia-class and Ohio-class SSBNs

    Post  par far on Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:19 am

    How does the Borei class stack up against the American Virginia class and Ohio class submarines?

    Are Russian Submarines better than the American ones or is it the other way around?

    Also where does the Yasen class submarine rank?

    Can some please tell me all the submarines that Russia operates right and what submarines will Russia operate in the future?

    Will Russia export any submarines soon?

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  par far on Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:21 am

    What future class submarines is Russia planning? I think that the Americans are building new submarines.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:10 am

    par far wrote:How does the Borei class stack up against the American Virginia class and Ohio class submarines?

    Are Russian Submarines better than the American ones or is it the other way around?

    Also where does the Yasen class submarine rank?

    Can some please tell me all the submarines that Russia operates right and what submarines will Russia operate in the future?

    Will Russia export any submarines soon?
    The Virginia is a completely different kind of submarine, it should be excluded... As should the Yasen, this thread will get too cluttered with two different kinds of submarines. 

    No one can really say, though the Borei is a much newer and (currently) more advanced than the Ohio. There is a reason that the US is trying to replace the Ohio-class with a stop-gap ASAP. Borei should be much quieter, but at the same time is holds a smaller number of missiles (albeit more advanced missiles). 

    Virginia's are a much more recent development than the Ohio, so the age-gap between that and the Yasen is lesser than the one between the Ohio and Borei. The Virginia is a nice design, and a very potent one, but the Yasen should still be quieter (which is one of the most important aspects of a sub). Another thing to keep in mind is their armaments... Both countries use rather old and dated torpedoes, but Russia's heavy torp has a longer range than its uS counterpart. That being said, both subs' torp armament isn't very great and is pretty similar in general. The one advantage of the Yasen and Russian subs in general, is that they can fire the ridiculously fast Shkval super-captivating torpedo, which doesn't have a US counterpart. As for missiles, I believe that the Virginia is stuck to land-attack Tomahawks while the Yasen can carry multiple Kalibr's (land attack, anti-ship, ASW etc) including the ASW models (which out-range all US and Russian torpedoes). 

    As of right now, they are using the...

    SSBN's; Borei (2 active though one more is ready), Delta IV (six active), Delta III (3 active, will be outed soon) and one p.941 Typhoon.

    SSN's; Akula (9 in service, though this needs to be checked), Oscar (5 active AFAIK), Sierra (3 active, once again, this needs checking), and the Victor (4 active). 

    SSK's; Kilo (16?), Kilo 636 (1, but second model is almost ready), and the one Lada (more on the way).

    I'm sorry if some of these figures are wrong, it is a royal-pain-in-the-%$@ to find these numbers, at least it is for myself... 

    Anyway, in the near-future (decade from now)...

    You can expect the left-over Delta III and p.941 Typhoon model(s) to be decommissioned and scrapped at a later date. In their place, their will be the coming Borei's (eight ordered so far).

    The Victors will probably be thrown-out (so to speak), with the Sierra's still in service along with most of the Akula's, the phased-out subs will be replaced by the Yasen's (seven ordered, though hopefully some more can be added).

    The older Kilo's will be getting the boot, with the 636's and Lada's replacing them (Lada orders are not significant as of right now, though they will grow). - Maybe some 636's (I hope)...

    Amur will be exported.

    They are exporting the Kilo and 636 Kilo right now, and the Amur orders should be coming in soon, there is also the one Akula SSN under rent (something like that) in India right now.

    Russia is already beginning work on the Borei-replacement (long ways away), the Yasen-replacement is unknown... Finally, the Lada and maybe an upgrade of it will occur in large numbers. The US is only working on a cheaper (and much less effective) Virginia-class variant (for land-attack, hence the downgrades) and the stop-gap Ohio replacement (which should be fine).

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:31 am

    There are in reality only several 971s (Akula) active. The state of the fleet is terrible. Several are nominally active but not really ready to go to sea. 3-4 active at best today I would estimate.

    As for 945s (Sierra), only the Nizhn Nogorod is active. Though the Pskov is on factory trials after being repaired, so it should be back in service soon.

    Only 1 RTMK is in service, though two others might rejoin the fleet if Nerpa can get their shit together. The last (Petrazavodsk) has been essentially a donor vessel for some time.

    5 BDRMs are in service, Yekaterinburg is not back in fleet service yet.
    Dmitry Donskoy is only a test vessel, not a true combat ship anymore.

    As for actual characteristics and comparisons, beside "hard" info (missile types, number, age, etc) don't expect to find anything serious online.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:As for actual characteristics and comparisons, beside "hard" info (missile types, number, age, etc) don't expect to find anything serious online.
    Agreed, you (par far) shouldn't expect to get much in terms of good opinions on a matter such as this one. Many important factors of all the mentioned-submarines are secretive, and if they aren't, it is still a PITA to find info on them. This site; http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/ has the best (easy to find) info on Russian subs, along with a bunch of different navy-related news and articles etc. On US subs, you won't be able to find the details on just about anything on their subs, as the US Navy is extremely secretive about the details and is often conservative with their capabilities (to keep the "enemy" from gaining an advantage). That being said, some of their systems are public and can be found anywhere on the internet.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:53 pm

    One thing to keep in mind is that neither Navy (none to be precise) can consistently detect their opponents submarines. A good example of this (in this case it is between China and the US) is when a Chinese Type 039 got within five nautical miles of the USS Kitty Hawk carrier group without being detected. Only after it surfaced (just cause, it wasn't because of the need for air) was it detected, and that was by a jet flying overheard and had nothing to do with technology... Pretty crazy to think about, and the Type 039 is China's first indigenous SSK. I don't even want to know how close a 636 or Lada could get to a carrier group....  Same could happen with a US sub, except for that they do not have any diesels in service. Anyway, 5 nautical miles in within range of a torpedo like the Shkval, so that shows the threat that SSK's represent.... Obviously, the big difference between Russian and American submarines, isn't the subs themselves, but their tactics and for what purpose they'd be used. An American SSN or two (if not more) will be guarding a carrier group, which restricts what they can do. On the other hand, Russian SSN's aren't restricted in that way, but are instead lesser in number. So it is a trade off. The US's rather offensive stragety is what causes this problem (for them), as Russia will be defensive naturally and hence doesn't have all these carriers etc. 

    As for the next-gen Virginia (a current model was just commissioned actually)... It will basically be like an underwater missile carrier, which is an interesting 180 for the US Navy. The design itself will be slightly larger (mostly in length) in order to accommodate a large number of Tomahawk's (as of right now). It will also be less complex and less advanced as well, in an attempt to bring down the cost and raise the rate of production. - Both of which are needed because of budget problems and aging LA class subs respectively. IMHO, it will basically be a cruiser under the sea, but it will also be replacing older SSN's which doesn't make much sense to be honest. It would be like Russia replacing the Kilo with a shrunken down diesel Borei... They have completely different roles... Thankfully (for the US Navy), they should have a decent number of Virginia's (current model) by then. - This newer model wouldn't stand a chance against actual SSN's, and it would also have "cheaper" (worse) sensors as well AFAIK. 

    The next-gen Ohio replacement is much more predictable... It should have a design influenced by the Ohio, but will be more advanced in just about every way. Interestingly enough, they will only be ordering twelve, and with the Ohio's gone by then, America's SSBN fleet will shrink down dramatically. This is partly thanks to the subs high price, which will be close to three times what the Borei costs if I remember right. Anyway, it should carry sixteen ballistic missiles (same as Borei, down from 24) and will fire the Trident-2 (a life-extension variant). Some have said it will only be able to hold twelve missiles, but I doubt that is anything more than creative thinking.... Besides that, it should use lessons learned from the Ohio and Virginia etc.

    The US Navy has no plans to order a SSK AFAIK, because it doesn't fit their strategy and cannot actually be offensive. 

    To be honest, I don't think that Russia has much to worry about... The US will be reling on smaller numbers (compared to today) of subs, some of which don't really have a role (Virginia-"upgrade"). At the same time, Russia won't be posing a much larger threat to the US Navy because of smaller numbers despite their advanced-nature. So, in all reality, nobody can say this sub is better than this one etc until they actually engage.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  par far on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:40 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    TR1 wrote:As for actual characteristics and comparisons, beside "hard" info (missile types, number, age, etc) don't expect to find anything serious online.
    Agreed, you (par far) shouldn't expect to get much in terms of good opinions on a matter such as this one. Many important factors of all the mentioned-submarines are secretive, and if they aren't, it is still a PITA to find info on them. This site; http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/ has the best (easy to find) info on Russian subs, along with a bunch of different navy-related news and articles etc. On US subs, you won't be able to find the details on just about anything on their subs, as the US Navy is extremely secretive about the details and is often conservative with their capabilities (to keep the "enemy" from gaining an advantage). That being said, some of their systems are public and can be found anywhere on the internet.


    Mike you were right, I could not find any good on this topic, they are probably top secret.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  par far on Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:08 pm

    Mike E wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that neither Navy (none to be precise) can consistently detect their opponents submarines. A good example of this (in this case it is between China and the US) is when a Chinese Type 039 got within five nautical miles of the USS Kitty Hawk carrier group without being detected. Only after it surfaced (just cause, it wasn't because of the need for air) was it detected, and that was by a jet flying overheard and had nothing to do with technology... Pretty crazy to think about, and the Type 039 is China's first indigenous SSK. I don't even want to know how close a 636 or Lada could get to a carrier group....  Same could happen with a US sub, except for that they do not have any diesels in service. Anyway, 5 nautical miles in within range of a torpedo like the Shkval, so that shows the threat that SSK's represent.... Obviously, the big difference between Russian and American submarines, isn't the subs themselves, but their tactics and for what purpose they'd be used. An American SSN or two (if not more) will be guarding a carrier group, which restricts what they can do. On the other hand, Russian SSN's aren't restricted in that way, but are instead lesser in number. So it is a trade off. The US's rather offensive stragety is what causes this problem (for them), as Russia will be defensive naturally and hence doesn't have all these carriers etc. 

    As for the next-gen Virginia (a current model was just commissioned actually)... It will basically be like an underwater missile carrier, which is an interesting 180 for the US Navy. The design itself will be slightly larger (mostly in length) in order to accommodate a large number of Tomahawk's (as of right now). It will also be less complex and less advanced as well, in an attempt to bring down the cost and raise the rate of production. - Both of which are needed because of budget problems and aging LA class subs respectively. IMHO, it will basically be a cruiser under the sea, but it will also be replacing older SSN's which doesn't make much sense to be honest. It would be like Russia replacing the Kilo with a shrunken down diesel Borei... They have completely different roles... Thankfully (for the US Navy), they should have a decent number of Virginia's (current model) by then. - This newer model wouldn't stand a chance against actual SSN's, and it would also have "cheaper" (worse) sensors as well AFAIK. 

    The next-gen Ohio replacement is much more predictable... It should have a design influenced by the Ohio, but will be more advanced in just about every way. Interestingly enough, they will only be ordering twelve, and with the Ohio's gone by then, America's SSBN fleet will shrink down dramatically. This is partly thanks to the subs high price, which will be close to three times what the Borei costs if I remember right. Anyway, it should carry sixteen ballistic missiles (same as Borei, down from 24) and will fire the Trident-2 (a life-extension variant). Some have said it will only be able to hold twelve missiles, but I doubt that is anything more than creative thinking.... Besides that, it should use lessons learned from the Ohio and Virginia etc.

    The US Navy has no plans to order a SSK AFAIK, because it doesn't fit their strategy and cannot actually be offensive. 

    To be honest, I don't think that Russia has much to worry about... The US will be reling on smaller numbers (compared to today) of subs, some of which don't really have a role (Virginia-"upgrade"). At the same time, Russia won't be posing a much larger threat to the US Navy because of smaller numbers despite their advanced-nature. So, in all reality, nobody can say this sub is better than this one etc until they actually engage.


    Thank you for all the good information Mike E, if the Chinese Type 039 can come this close, than the newer subs must killer.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:04 pm

    You're welcome...  Very Happy

    Anyway, I made a big mistake when I said the downgraded Virginia's are going to replace the older LA's. Turns out only five of them will be made, and they will replace the Ohio SSGN's. The newer Virginia's (one of which was recently commissioned) won't be improvements, but instead will be simpler and easier to produce cheaper but not worse). So, the RU Navy still doesn't have to worry, but I thought I'd correct myself nonetheless.

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