Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Share
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5672
    Points : 6321
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:11 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    2014NS "Obninsk" fulfilled shooting cruise missile
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10261
    Points : 10747
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:38 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup

    2014NS "Obninsk" fulfilled shooting cruise missile

    it is a Viktor III class submarine. Do we know what type of cruise missile was fired?

    chicken

    Posts : 98
    Points : 103
    Join date : 2014-09-04

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  chicken on Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:39 am

    George1 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup

    2014NS "Obninsk" fulfilled shooting cruise missile

    it is a Viktor III class submarine. Do we know what type of cruise missile was fired?

    Some guys say it might be a land attack Kalibr.

    At first they thought it was the new Improved Kilo that was recently turned over that will conduct the test but it's still 3 days of testing so maybe they'll try firing from different ships?




    Austin

    Posts : 6237
    Points : 6643
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    2014NS "Obninsk" fulfilled shooting cruise missile

    Post  Austin on Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:32 pm

    Good Details in the link


    Several "Boreas" and "Ash" for improving the project lay in the "Sevmash" in 2015

    http://itar-tass.com/armiya-i-opk/1632949
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10261
    Points : 10747
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    russian nuclear subs

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:39 pm

    Russia to lay down 3 Yasen-class, 2 Borei-class submarine in 2015

    Vann7

    Posts : 3453
    Points : 3571
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:19 am

    par far wrote:How does the Borei class stack up against the American Virginia class and Ohio class submarines?

    Are Russian Submarines better than the American ones or is it the other way around?

    Also where does the Yasen class submarine rank?

    Can some please tell me all the submarines that Russia operates right and what submarines will Russia operate in the future?

    Will Russia export any submarines soon?

    amazingly no one told you this..

    But ..

    you are mixing attack conventional submarines that carry cruise missiles.. vs ballistic submarines that carry nuclear weapons mostly and its sole purpose is destroy countries..  while attack submarines is main purpose is attack warships  and or other submarines or land targets with conventional weapons.


    when it comes to the future.. it will be..
    in attack submarines...
    Yasen class + kilo class vs Virginia+Seawolf class..

    in ballistic submarines with nuclear weapons..
    Borei class vs Ohio class..

    The Borei and Yasen and brand new submarines... while the american Ohio are 40 years old.. and the seawolf 15 years and virginia 10 years old.

    So the timing they have in service should give you an idea of how they stack each other in terms of technology
    of the ships.

    When it comes to weapons.. in attack submarines..weapons..
    it will be Russia using state of the art modern Kalibr and Onix missiles..and close range torpedos ,
    vs americans using Tomahawks and harpoon missiles of the 70s..

    in terms of technology Russia wins hands down..  the advantage of USA is in numbers. really and nothing else.

    in ballistic navy submarines nuclear war weapons ..
    it will be Russia using Bulava state of the art missiles vs  Americans using tridents that is technology of the 70s..
    and some upgraded ohios using trident II technology of the 90s..

    So ironically contrary to what the western people believe..Russian navy have more cutting edge technology...
    in their Submarines.. than US navy..   US navy advantage is not technology but numbers..and that have 10 aircraft carriers vs 1 of Russia .. but Russia counter their lower numbers with better technology and superior weapons..

    Kalibers/onyx anti-ship missiles range = up to 700km supersonic cruise missiles
    Harpoon anti ship missiles range = 130km subsonic cruise missiles..

    That said.. how it stack in a naval fight US vs Russia? if is conventional. and open seas. US navy will have to keep their surface warships away of Russia combat range ie.. 800km ++  and use their naval airforce flying low or Virginia submarines to try to sneak close enough to Russian navy to start a fight.

    Russia will be using their diesel electric submarines and yasen to hunt those virginia too.. so it will not be easy..

    If is close to Russian land.. is several times more harder if not impossible to have an effective fight , because Russia continent becomes effectively a giant aircraft carrier that do not sink.  And S-400s defenses will keep away any airforce.. patrol boats and helicopters with radars will be sent to scan for  submarines.

    par far

    Posts : 1404
    Points : 1561
    Join date : 2014-06-26

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  par far on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:26 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    par far wrote:How does the Borei class stack up against the American Virginia class and Ohio class submarines?

    Are Russian Submarines better than the American ones or is it the other way around?

    Also where does the Yasen class submarine rank?

    Can some please tell me all the submarines that Russia operates right and what submarines will Russia operate in the future?

    Will Russia export any submarines soon?

    amazingly no one told you this..

    But ..

    you are mixing attack conventional submarines that carry cruise missiles.. vs ballistic submarines that carry nuclear weapons mostly and its sole purpose is destroy countries..  while attack submarines is main purpose is attack warships  and or other submarines or land targets with conventional weapons.


    when it comes to the future.. it will be..
    in attack submarines...
    Yasen class + kilo class vs Virginia+Seawolf class..

    in ballistic submarines with nuclear weapons..
    Borei class vs Ohio class..

    The Borei and Yasen and brand new submarines... while the american Ohio are 40 years old.. and the seawolf 15 years and virginia 10 years old.

    So the timing they have in service should give you an idea of how they stack each other in terms of technology
    of the ships.

    When it comes to weapons.. in attack submarines..weapons..
    it will be Russia using state of the art modern Kalibr and Onix missiles..and close range torpedos ,
    vs americans using Tomahawks and harpoon missiles of the 70s..

    in terms of technology Russia wins hands down..  the advantage of USA is in numbers. really and nothing else.

    in ballistic navy submarines nuclear war weapons ..
    it will be Russia using Bulava state of the art missiles vs  Americans using tridents that is technology of the 70s..
    and some upgraded ohios using trident II technology of the 90s..

    So ironically contrary to what the western people believe..Russian navy have more cutting edge technology...
    in their Submarines.. than US navy..   US navy advantage is not technology but numbers..and that have 10 aircraft carriers vs 1 of Russia .. but Russia counter their lower numbers with better technology and superior weapons..

    Kalibers/onyx anti-ship missiles range = up to 700km supersonic cruise missiles
    Harpoon anti ship missiles range = 130km subsonic cruise missiles..

    That said.. how it stack in a naval fight US vs Russia? if is conventional. and open seas. US navy will have to keep their surface warships away of Russia combat range ie.. 800km ++  and use their naval airforce flying low or Virginia submarines to try to sneak close enough to Russian navy to start a fight.

    Russia will be using their diesel electric submarines and yasen to hunt those virginia too.. so it will not be easy..

    If is close to Russian land.. is several times more harder if not impossible to have an effective fight , because Russia continent becomes effectively a giant aircraft carrier that do not sink.  And S-400s defenses will keep away any airforce.. patrol boats and helicopters with radars will be sent to scan for  submarines.


    Thank for the clear up Vann, can you tell me what is the difference between project 636.3 and project 636.6.
    avatar
    max steel

    Posts : 2979
    Points : 3011
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:34 pm

    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:16 pm

    That chart is "nominally" right, but realistically many of those boats are either non-operational or under modernization. And some of their fates are very unclear.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:21 pm

    In a war time, I imagine they would become opperational real quick. Nice pic.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:22 pm

    No they wouldn't.

    You can't just turn a boat that has been sitting pier-side for a decade operational overnight. Not how it works.

    In some cases the boat is half apart in terms of propulsion.


    Last edited by TR1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:23 pm

    Which boat?

    Then again, if the deltas and boreis use their arsenal, then the rest doesnt matter. All would be over anyhow.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:30 pm

    Plenty of them.

    Examples:

    -671RTMK:
    Petrazavodks is a donor vessel. No way is it combat capable.

    -954:
    Karp has been inactive since 1998. Needs years of work @ Zvezdochka to get back to the fleet at the very least.

    -949A:
    Irkutsk has been in reserve since 1998. Repairs since 2008, that flopped, and is now being modernized in Zvezda till 2017. Assuming they meet the deadline.

    -971:
    Kashalot has been in repair @ Armur since 2003. Is partially in pieces, and its only real hope of return is if India leases it.

    Anyways, just some examples of the top of my head.
    Some ships are only out of it because they are being modernized and have otherwise been active, but for plenty more the situation is far less rosy.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:37 am

    So the attack subs?  I see that they are usually the ones always being overhauled.  The Delta's seem fine though, no?  And those are the end game ones as are all SSBM subs.

    Thanks for the info.  Any particular reason why the nuclear attack subs are problematic for overhauling? Less emphasis on them?
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:01 am

    Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16334
    Points : 16965
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:45 am

    an attack sub is also a lot like an ASW aircraft... very very expensive... very very high tech... lots and lots of computers and very sensitive equipment to detect and track very quiet threats.

    In 2 years they are no longer state of the art... you know how fast computer technology moves... and software moves just as fast... constant updates, plus a new programme every 2-3 years with all sorts of new features requiring new hardware to run at reasonable speeds.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.
    avatar
    Zivo

    Posts : 1494
    Points : 1528
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Zivo on Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.

    You've made some enemies here.

    It appears your non-stronk, realistic assessments will not go unpunished.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:32 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.

    Well, if it will make you feel better, I gave you a + because you provided the info I was looking for.

    Makes sense that during questionable periods, they would rely more on the ssbm subs rather than attack.

    Besides Yasin, are there plans for any other nuclear subs, cheaper too? Could they not look at kinda crossmixing generational technologies like they do for aircrafts? Or seek to co develop one with China for the things that are considered problematic and costly for Russia? Or India (Since india is interested in Russian nuclear attack subs)?
    avatar
    max steel

    Posts : 2979
    Points : 3011
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:36 pm

    yasen is thumbsup . How many are in service currently ? 5 ?
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:40 pm

    max steel wrote:yasen is thumbsup . How many are in service currently ? 5 ?
    1
    And 3 more laid down. But the cost is so enormous that Yasen is the most expensive ssgn. So I dont think it will end up in the numbers one expects. I can see them coming up with either new Kilos with much more extended range and a cheaper nuclear reactor submarine. The nuclear attack subs are semi important, but not by much. But I cant see them not acquiring more. So who knows. But what we do know is Yasen is far too expensive.
    avatar
    max steel

    Posts : 2979
    Points : 3011
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:30 pm

    Such things don't come cheap . It's better than usa latest seawolf subs and others too . I rea they were expected to have 5 yasens by 2020 .
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:51 pm

    max steel wrote:Such things don't come cheap . It's better than usa latest seawolf subs and others too . I rea they were expected to have 5 yasens by 2020 .

    I was wrong. So 4 more are planned. But still, ridiculously expensive. More improved kilos and or kilo sub with aip, with more boreis would be better. Or look at possibly building a cheaper nuclear attack sub. Mixture of new and older (proven) tech. Or maybe remake akula's and amur shipyard as well as this shipyard co make them to help reduce overall costs and since various ones were made, may not be expensive to make a new one.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 713
    Points : 733
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:yasen is thumbsup . How many are in service currently ? 5 ?
    1
    And 3 more laid down. But the cost is so enormous that Yasen is the most expensive ssgn. So I dont think it will end up in the numbers one expects. I can see them coming up with either new Kilos with much more extended range and a cheaper nuclear reactor submarine.  The nuclear attack subs are semi important, but not by much. But I cant see them not acquiring more. So who knows. But what we do know is Yasen is far too expensive.

    The Yasen may be expensive, but is essential that Russia has an effective force of state-of-the-art SSN hunter-killers in order to order to match the USNs Seawolves and Virginias. Fielding cheaper but less capable frontline units is not an option if you actually want these boats to hold the line in any future hostilities.

    8 Yasens backed by a modernised ex-Soviet force of 4x Pr 945 Barracuda/Sierra, ~10x Pr 971 Shchuka-B/Akula and 8x Pr 949A Granit/Oscar-II would give Russia an exceptional long-duration submarine attack force, second only to the USN. That assumes a lot of course as the modernisation of the 945, 971 and 949A will depend on the actual condition of the individual boats and will no doubt prove costly, but the potential is there.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:57 am

    You will never see 8 885s and that many of the legacy subs.

    The Navy currently does not even have 50% of its attack boats operational. And not nearly all of them are slated for upgrades that would keep them in service post 2020...

    The 945s being modernized is looking doubtful as well...


    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:10 am