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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:23 am

    But if that were true then that would suggest that because the Delta IIIs and presumably Delta IVs were used that these subs can break through ice to launch their missiles... I don't understand why they would be able to do that and the Boreis not... the Deltas certainly had raised rear structures, but that was because of the length of their missile main armament and nothing to do with surfacing through ice.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:11 am

    These doubts can be eliminated easily if they start firing Bulava from the Arctic. Today's firing of Bulava was once again from the White Sea.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:57 pm

    Any native Russian speaker can clarify if I am correct here or mistaken.
    He wrote that his understanding is that the Bulava itself can't be fired from under ice., as they "forgot to add this feature" & rushed it into service to arm the Boreis.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:20 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Any native Russian speaker can clarify if I am correct here or mistaken.
    He wrote that his understanding is that the Bulava itself can't be fired from under ice., as they "forgot to add this feature" & rushed it into service to arm the Boreis.

    You mean he expected Bulava to break a layer of 3+ meters of ice on launch? I mean that is so LOL! Laughing

    Somebody tell him that the designers of Trident D5 also forgot to add this feature, so US and Russia are even here. lol!
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:58 pm

    Most of the ice cover, even in winter, is well less than 3m thick.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:03 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Any native Russian speaker can clarify if I am correct here or mistaken.
    He wrote that his understanding is that the Bulava itself can't be fired from under ice., as they "forgot to add this feature" & rushed it into service to arm the Boreis.

    Which means he is an idiot

    Bulava was designed specifically for Borei subs

    Borei subs were designed to be quiet and to operate from ice-free oceans unlike previous soviet subs which had to hide under the ice thus limiting their area of operations

    So a claim that someone 'forgot to add ice-breaking feature' on Bulava is peak stupidity, this is not extra RAM slot on the motherboard, this is something you design entire missile around

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:02 pm

    Borei subs were designed to be quiet and to operate from ice-free oceans unlike previous soviet subs which had to hide under the ice thus limiting their area of operations
    wrong: even if they r less noisy, the combined Western ASW assets will still find & sink them in ice-free oceans, esp. since they'll need to navigate choke points & lack surface ships to oppose the adversary's ASW ops.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:00 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Borei subs were designed to be quiet and to operate from ice-free oceans unlike previous soviet subs which had to hide under the ice thus limiting their area of operations
    wrong: even if they r less noisy, the combined Western ASW assets will still find & sink them in ice-free oceans, esp. since they'll need to navigate choke points & lack surface ships to oppose the adversary's ASW ops.

    They can fire from their homeport at any nuclear armed country. Their operating zone in case of war would probably be in russian territorial weapon.

    SSBN were never meant to participate to a conventional war.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:35 am

    wrong: even if they r less noisy, the combined Western ASW assets will still find & sink them in ice-free oceans, esp. since they'll need to navigate choke points & lack surface ships to oppose the adversary's ASW ops.

    I suspect western ASW assets wont be that effective, for a couple of serious reasons... first the improvement in Russian sub performance meaning active sonar becomes important for long range detection... which is problematic... But it also has the problem that with the expansion of Russian air power into the arctic and the increase in receding ice cover that operations in the north or just friendly waters would be enough considering the range of the missiles these subs carry.

    Another factor is that in times of tension those navigable choke points can be sailed through before anyones starts launching missiles... once they are through then they have an enormous area to hide in with little chance of being detected by western ASW forces... just disappear like smoke and find places to hide waiting for launch orders.

    Modern Russian SSBNs could launch their entire compliment of missiles in less time than a NATO force could find them, get permission to attack them and launch that attack.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:18 am

    ..operations in the north or just friendly waters would be enough considering the range of the missiles these subs carry.
    Another factor is that in times of tension those navigable choke points can be sailed through before anyones starts launching missiles... once they are through then they have an enormous area to hide in with little chance of being detected by western ASW forces...
    Yes, the Western ASW means r less effective in the Arctic, even in the ice free areas- within easy reach of land based Russian aviation & Caliber armed ships/subs.
    The Arctic Ocean & the Okhotsk Sea r enormous enough & have better protected bastion areas- there's no need to risk going through GIUK gap+SOSUS there for the N. Fleet SSBNs & straight the into USN, RN & FN SSBN operating areas in the N. & Mid. Atlantic.
    Just 10 years ago, British & French SSBNs collided there: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/world/europe/17submarine.html

    In the Pacific, as in the Atlantic, at least 2 USN SSBNs r on patrol 24/7, & American CSGs/MEUs regularly exercise & transit there- why go in harm's way to risk a collision or detection?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:42 am

    Yes, the Western ASW means r less effective in the Arctic, e

    Well that is true but I was meaning that ASW technology is very very expensive and that funding has been greatly reduced since the end of the cold war and ASW and indeed mine countermeasures were easy areas to cut a lot of spending... not that they used to spend a lot on mine countermeasures...

    The SOSUS system and related underwater listening systems for the US have been dramatically scaled back via absence of funding.

    Even if they get funding back they will need to amplify funding for a decade or so because the problem is an order of magnitude harder now.

    In the Pacific, as in the Atlantic, at least 2 USN SSBNs r on patrol 24/7, & American CSGs/MEUs regularly exercise & transit there- why go in harm's way to risk a collision or detection?

    They are colliding because they can't see each other... they can't see each other because they are not expecting Russian subs so they are not looking... obviously this makes sending SSBNs to those waters a good idea because it is an enormous area they can use to hide in, and they also have enemy SSBNs to hide amongst too... so when they have launched their SLBMs they can use some torpedos hunting enemy SSBNs.

    BTW a few depressed trajectory SLBMs fired from a Russian pier to detonate underwater would eliminate any hydrophone array... probably permanently... suddenly no gap.....
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    Post  slasher on Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 am

    Well here's some interesting information from "a source close to the main headquarters of the Navy" which addresses a big concern in the article posted:

    Russian submarines can fire a Bulava rocket only from west to east
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:..this makes sending SSBNs to those waters a good idea because it is an enormous area they can use to hide in, and they also have enemy SSBNs to hide amongst too... so when they have launched their SLBMs they can use some torpedos hunting enemy SSBNs.
    IMO, it's still not worth it. The USN, RN, FN can send a few SSN/Ks to patrol the GIUK & SSN escorts to guard SSBNs; 4 US SSGNs r also being deployed around Eurasia & can detect them. Safer to sit on the bottom under the ice cover & occasionally sail to drag an antenna to get messages- the ice won't stop the ELF signals from their HQ.
    Also SAR assets won't have to go to far to save crews & the subs.
    BTW a few depressed trajectory SLBMs fired from a Russian pier to detonate underwater would eliminate any hydrophone array... probably permanently... suddenly no gap...
    if they can hit water at that speed, they can hit & break ice at much slower speed.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:06 am

    IMO, it's still not worth it. The USN, RN, FN can send a few SSN/Ks to patrol the GIUK & SSN escorts to guard SSBNs; 4 US SSGNs r also being deployed around Eurasia & can detect them. Safer to sit on the bottom under the ice cover & occasionally sail to drag an antenna to get messages- the ice won't stop the ELF signals from their HQ.
    Also SAR assets won't have to go to far to save crews & the subs.

    I love your confidence... we are talking about very quiet vessels they will have serious problems detecting and tracking them... they could follow a cargo ship or LNG carrier and hide in its shadow making them even harder to detect...

    And SAR assets to save crews... what are you smoking?

    Even assuming they get out of the sub alive what are their chances realistically in the arctic waters? 20 minutes maybe? No chance sorry.

    Near the equator in the Pacific or Atlantic they could last much longer...

    if they can hit water at that speed, they can hit & break ice at much slower speed.

    Most of the underwater nuclear detonations you see pictures of are maybe 2Kt or less... a 400KT nuke could detonate at the surface and do enormous damage to hydrophones...

    Sweet Jesus, who writes this shit?

    Ballistic missiles travel across the North Pole, they move neither Eastward nor Westward

    Did moron who wrote that this ever hear about Earth being round?

    I think what he is saying is that they have one range set up for SLBMs to be tested so the fact that Bulava is only launched in one direction during exercises is for this reason... if they couldn't launch the missiles from the Northern or Pacific Fleet general locations then they wouldn't base their subs there.

    The are fully operational and able to attack their designated targets, but to launch their missiles during tests and collect meaningful data on the results they have to launch in one direction at one target range.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:39 am

    I love your confidence... we are talking about very quiet vessels they will have serious problems detecting and tracking them... they could follow a cargo ship or LNG carrier and hide in its shadow making them even harder to detect...
    SSNs/drones, with MPA help, will follow them as soon as they leave their bases &/ enter GIUK gap. The USN re-established 2nd Fleet will start sending CVNs to the N. Atlantic; more ASW helos could be added to their AWs.
    https://navaltoday.com/2019/10/04/after-reviving-the-2nd-fleet-us-navy-reestablishes-submarine-group-2/

    Their SLBMs have enough range to hit most/all of N. America, W. Europe, Hawaii, Guam, & E. Asia from the Arctic & Okhotsk Seas. Besides, adding transit times will add operating/repair costs + time at sea & reduce reactors' lifetime.
    Even assuming they get out of the sub alive what are their chances realistically in the arctic waters? 20 minutes maybe? No chance sorry.
    not if they surface in rescue capsules &/ use rubber rafts.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/world/rescue-capsule-saved-only-1-on-sinking-soviet-submarine.html

    On ice/nearby islands, they could kill polar bears/birds/seals & eat their meat if need be. SAR aircraft will reach them from restored & new bases in a matter of hours at worse.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 pm

    Even assuming they get out of the sub alive what are their chances realistically in the arctic waters? 20 minutes maybe? No chance sorry.

    You guys really think that anyone will care about them during a nuclear war. They won't have nowhere to come back. The safest place would be on the north pole in a research center with solar power and some fishing tools.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:23 pm

    They may have accidents in peacetime- & it happened many times with dufferent subs before.
    1 BM sub sunk off Hawaii in 1968, & 1 off Bermuda in 1986: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian
    https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/01/k219/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:49 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:......
    I think what he is saying is that they have one range set up for SLBMs to be tested so the fact that Bulava is only launched in one direction during exercises is for this reason... if they couldn't launch the missiles from the Northern or Pacific Fleet general locations then they wouldn't base their subs there.

    The are fully operational and able to attack their designated targets, but to launch their missiles during tests and collect meaningful data on the results they have to launch in one direction at one target range.


    So title has nothing to with content

    Problem was simply lack of targeting range in west of the county and not any issue with missiles

    https://web.archive.org/web/20191101100540/https://twitter.com/baklitskiy/status/1189697949544206338?lang=ro

    Interesting factoid, small thread: all Russian SLBM tests as of lately were from West to East. 1) makes sense to test SSBNs closer to production facilities, 2) western testing ground Chizha (Archangelsk region) needs serious modernization to receive all test control equipment 1/2

    That’s why there were no test launches by two Borei class SSBNs since they were transferred to the Far East in 2013-14. This is compensated by the rotation of SSBN crews between Northern and Pacific fleets. But at some point Chizha will have to be modernized 2/2



    Exclamation

    So we are now going back to that idiotic article which claimed that two Borei subs in the Pacific are not operational because their missiles are not being test fired

    And like I sad before it's all BS, subs have been on patrols this whole time



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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:50 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They may have accidents in peacetime- & it happened many times before. 1 sunk off Bermuda in 1986: https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/01/k219/

    In peacetime any ship/boat sailing around will have to look for the crew. It is an internationnal law to be oblige to help a ship if you are close to. In war time they will be use only for nuclear strikes so WW3 scenario.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:02 pm

    They would be transiting & patrolling away from all traffic, & wouldn't want to depend on others to hide under & be rescued. Why risk losing subs, sailors, secrets & prestige?
    Russian SSGNs & SSNs with tactical nukes or conventional CMs that can hit coastal NPPs now patrol off the US anyway- no need to send SSBNs outside their bastions.
    Besides, the Poseidons r not long in coming into service; their subs won't be going too far either.
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    Post  slasher on Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:......
    I think what he is saying is that they have one range set up for SLBMs to be tested so the fact that Bulava is only launched in one direction during exercises is for this reason... if they couldn't launch the missiles from the Northern or Pacific Fleet general locations then they wouldn't base their subs there.

    The are fully operational and able to attack their designated targets, but to launch their missiles during tests and collect meaningful data on the results they have to launch in one direction at one target range.


    So title has nothing to with content

    Problem was simply lack of targeting range in west of the county and not any issue with missiles

    https://web.archive.org/web/20191101100540/https://twitter.com/baklitskiy/status/1189697949544206338?lang=ro

    Interesting factoid, small thread: all Russian SLBM tests as of lately were from West to East. 1) makes sense to test SSBNs closer to production facilities, 2) western testing ground Chizha (Archangelsk region) needs serious modernization to receive all test control equipment 1/2

    That’s why there were no test launches by two Borei class SSBNs since they were transferred to the Far East in 2013-14. This is compensated by the rotation of SSBN crews between Northern and Pacific fleets. But at some point Chizha will have to be modernized 2/2



    Exclamation

    So we are now going back to that idiotic article which claimed that two Borei subs in the Pacific are not operational because their missiles are not being test fired

    And like I sad before it's all BS, subs have been on patrols this whole time

     


    Didn't notice this exercise receiving much of the regularly hysterical western media alarm coverage. Significant nonetheless.

    The Russian navy in mid-October 2019 sortied eight submarines in the country’s biggest undersea exercise since the Cold War.
    Russian subs honing stealth skills in major North Atlantic drill, says Norwegian intel

    The previous article posted had raised several issues that subsequent reports like these have served to address. The author drew attention to a number of concerns, however legitimate or not they may appear. There have been statements that respond to some of them, such as the one quoted which explained the lack of updated facilities at the western test site or the MoD's own statement reported here in response to the alleged test launch failure:
    Russia’s top brass nixes submarine missile launch over faulty munition during drill

    As time goes on hopefully more information may become available that can provide updates/answers to the issues identified.
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    Post  slasher on Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:32 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They would be transiting & patrolling away from all traffic, & wouldn't want to depend on others to hide under & be rescued. Why risk losing subs, sailors, secrets & prestige?
    Russian SSGNs & SSNs with tactical nukes or conventional CMs that can hit coastal NPPs now patrol off the US anyway- no need to send SSBNs outside their bastions.
    Besides, the Poseidons r not long in coming into service; their subs won't be going too far either.

    I tend to agree that it makes sense to remain close to the safety of shore and sea based defences as well as under the additional cover of ice in the Arctic and probably the Sea of Okhotsk too. No need to expose oneself to unnecessary and unwanted attention. It's known anyhow that bases' exits are under continuous surveillance. Once out at sea it all becomes a risky cat and mouse game scenario, where modern stealth and technologies seek to enable these doomsday behemoths to perform their disappearing tricks and evade the enemy.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:26 pm

    Only our SSBNs can crack the 2-meter ice of the Arctic to inflict a destructive strike.

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