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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    TR1
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:44 pm

    Belgorod will be completed as special purpose sub, we already knew that. Not sure what he means by others to be completed- the leftover hulls at Sevmash sure as hell won't be, they are way too far from completion. I guess this is general intention to keep the boats around, like they have said in the past. The fleet has already been going overhaul/light modernization + modest life increase, and when that resource runs out, they are planned to be in dock for a more thorough modernization (the one that will replace main battery).
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:56 pm

    This 1,500km range missile is very interesting, because sub launched Klub is known to have a range of 2,500km.

    The mention of the US ABM system is perhaps the clue.

    I rather suspect the Oscar class is being revitalised with Klubs, not for land attack... which would of course be pointless in attacking land based assets like the radars and command centres that control the ABM systems because the flight times of cruise missiles are measured in hours rather than minutes.

    To be effective in an ABM role I rather suspect they are talking about the anti ship versions of Klub for domestic use that wont have its range limited by export treaties and agreements, and considering the targets will be US AEGIS class ships in the Northern sea and the Arctic ocean under the flight path of Russian ICBMs then I can only assume the plan is for the Mach 3 anti ship model of Klub, which it seems has a range of 1,500km in the domestic version which I would assume means a fairly long 1,450km subsonic flight... much of the initial flight at medium altitude to conserve fuel and increase average flight speed, till it gets to near the radar horizon of the target ships and drops down and probably performs horizontal turns till it gets to the radar horizon of the target and then launches is solid rocket powered terminal section with guidance system and payload at mach 2.9 at very low level.

    Obviously the modern AEGIS class vessels will be a tough nut to crack, so I rather suspect that rumours of 36 or 72 Klubs per tube might not be an exaggeration as the more missiles it can direct at the targets the more the targets will be directing their radars down instead of up.

    Another aspect is that I would prefer the Oscars to be Oscars and not frankenstein Boreis or Yasens.

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    Some Old but Nice Read

    Post  Austin on Mon May 07, 2012 12:34 pm

    Some Old but Nice Read

    To Catch The Quite Ones
    Rubin: To Build A Better Sub
    Malachite Subs Post Proud Tradation
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:36 am

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?212191-9th-Virginia-class-SSN-delivered-a-year-ahead-of-Schedule&p=6164728&viewfull=1#post6164728

    A good example of why MP.net is a joke, and the expertise levels of "western sub fans".

    LOL! This guy knows more about Severodvinsk than Russian navy.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed May 09, 2012 8:48 am

    I replied to him but didnt want to pursue further.

    Most of the rumours of yasen is spread with respect to old ONI reports released in early 90's that compared Yasen broad band sound with Sea Wolf and rated it higher in broad band sound. This one



    Yasen has since then gone through atleast 2 design changes and the Yasen-M is 4+ class SSGN.

    I am told by some one who served in Russian Navy that the Akula can hold against any thing out there in its own territorial waters.

    Yasen gives Russian Navy a big assymetric advantage in Blue Seas of Pacific and Atlantic and can take on USN CBG

    If you read the book by Norman Polmar , when he showed ONI estimates to Russian Submarine Designer he laughed looking at it and said to him why do you think we will not get better than that Smile

    Norman Polmar concludes that Russian 4th Gen Subs will beat US submarine on Noise Level and exceeds its quiteness.

    But I should add one thing here submarine warfare is far more than quiteness and quiteness is just one critical of the 4-5 parameter at tactical level to compare two subs ......this whole myth of quiteness being every thing was created by US navy and its media because thats the only advantage they held for long , while Soviet Russian submarine were superior in Depth , Speed , Weapons , Nonacoustic sensors and Hydrodynamics.

    I am sure when US comes to know yasen is better in quiteness , they would turn back and say quiteness is not every thing Laughing
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:58 am

    Yeah, don't waste your time.

    gems like :

    "Akula-II at or below tactical speed is potentially quieter than a 688(i) at or below tactical speed, but her sonar is absolutely terrible compared to that of the American boat."
    "A Seawolf at its tactical speed is quieter than Severodvinsk at 10 knots, if she slows down the advantage only grows, and worse news for the Russian skipper is that his sonar is a few generations behind."

    -betray a person who probably read cold war era American (or British, whatever) literature, and though with great relief that in the 1980s the F-16 could handle any SOviet fighter thrown at it.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 3:52 am

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?212191-9th-Virginia-class-SSN-delivered-a-year-ahead-of-Schedule&p=6164728&viewfull=1#post6164728

    A good example of why MP.net is a joke, and the expertise levels of "western sub fans".

    LOL! This guy knows more about Severodvinsk than Russian navy.

    Just went to that link and had a short read and I was a little surprised at you Austin...

    artjomh , those db figures are from real world but those are just estimates ...just read up on Noise of Submarine on FAS and you will get more info.

    To be honest the only opinion in that thread I have any respect for is Artjomh.

    Artjomh to the Soviet and Russian Navy is like SOC to US intelligence... and for the same reasons.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 6:34 am

    Arjtomh is good no doubt but he is not infallible.

    He can be more courteous if he think he knows more than the rest rather then bombarding with unkind words.

    On the topic , you have to read lot of open source material available like those presented in US congress and from know unbaised author like Norman Polmar etc and then draw your own conclusion.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:38 pm

    The Severodvinsk hasn't been in the water all that long and her improved sister ships have not even hit the water yet, yet the US is giving performance information out like they know more than the Russian Navy does.

    It is nothing personal... I don't believe US information about how stealthy an F-22 really is or how stealthy they think the PAK FA might be either.

    Artjomh is certainly not infallible... no one is... not even me. angel

    But even when I don't agree with his opinions I still respect them... as with Vlad and SOC and Jonesy from Keypublishing. They served and have an idea of what they are talking about from personal experience...

    I am told by some one who served in Russian Navy that the Akula can hold against any thing out there in its own territorial waters.

    If you listen to this person... why don't you listen to Artjomh?

    On the topic , you have to read lot of open source material available like those presented in US congress and from know unbaised author like Norman Polmar etc and then draw your own conclusion.

    The Americans are perfectly happy to lie when it suits them.

    Look at the WMD debacle with Iraq as an example of using information and "estimates" that suited their agenda.

    Added to that the very strong US believe in its technical superiority and US strong propaganda and I really don't rate the information coming from the US. They will likely happily manipulate the evidence one way or the other to suit their current needs so I will not put much trust in the figures and charts they release.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 6:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Severodvinsk hasn't been in the water all that long and her improved sister ships have not even hit the water yet, yet the US is giving performance information out like they know more than the Russian Navy does.

    Those are estimates or trends what the ONI believes could be broadband noise quitening ..... but those are not gospel truth and things might not be as black and white as US Intelligence thinks.

    If you listen to this person... why don't you listen to Artjomh?

    Because he served on Russian SSBN for some time and had vast experience in the Navy on Surface Ships .....Artjomh opinion i do respect a lot but like i said he is not infallible.....no one is for that matter.

    The Americans are perfectly happy to lie when it suits them.

    Look at the WMD debacle with Iraq as an example of using information and "estimates" that suited their agenda.

    Added to that the very strong US believe in its technical superiority and US strong propaganda and I really don't rate the information coming from the US. They will likely happily manipulate the evidence one way or the other to suit their current needs so I will not put much trust in the figures and charts they release.

    It is true that USN might just inflate the threat to get budgets or simply might not have all the intelligence information they need to get the right information even if they do a honest assessment.

    But i have read many documents on this subjects from reputed US Authors , Critiques and Russian Navy Literature .....suffice to say this is a classified subject and its simply not possible to compare one is to one for any submarine even if information were to be available there are just too many variables.

    But if you ask my opinion i would say that Akula is a formidable enemy both in its own backyard and in open seas , there are many aspects to submarine performance both at tactical and strategic level and Noise is one of them.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 7:32 pm

    Wait, I never heard of Artjomh serving on a SSBN. Proof?

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wait, I never heard of Artjomh serving on a SSBN. Proof?

    Not Artjomh but the other guy is what i am talking about
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 9:21 pm

    Woops, reading fail on my part.
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    russian nuclear submarine force

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 12, 2012 2:27 am

    Those are estimates or trends what the ONI believes could be broadband noise quitening ..... but those are not gospel truth and things might not be as black and white as US Intelligence thinks.

    In other words guesses from an organisation with a very high opinion of itself... better than nothing but not much better.

    Because he served on Russian SSBN for some time and had vast experience in the Navy on Surface Ships .....Artjomh opinion i do respect a lot but like i said he is not infallible.....no one is for that matter.

    I was under the impression that Artjomh served in the Soviet/Russian navy.

    But if you ask my opinion i would say that Akula is a formidable enemy both in its own backyard and in open seas , there are many aspects to submarine performance both at tactical and strategic level and Noise is one of them.

    We know more about the surface of the moon than we know about the ocean depths. To suggest a Seawolf will always prevail is to assume your enemy is an idiot. Even the noisiest sub known to man can sit in its home port with its reactor shut down safely for hours with no noise emissions at all... tactics can compensate for a lot of perceived problems.

    I vaguely recall an incident that occurred during the cold war when Soviet Subs were ordered to go somewhere and changed to "war mode" and managed to slip past western ASW defences undetected... it is not impossible for there to be a noise maker fitted to Russians subs that gives them a distinctive signature and lull the west into a false sense of security, but when the brown stuff hits the fan can be turned off. Not the first surprise the Soviets played on the west.

    On a side note. Why doesn't one of you guys just invite artjomh to join this forum.
    I haven't posted in mp.net for a long while, and I don't even remember my password.

    My log in on MP.net doesn't work, otherwise I would be happy to give him a PM invite to come here.


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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat May 12, 2012 10:36 am

    Artjomh AFAIK is not a serving or retd Military Officer

    The only one i know on mp.net was SmoothieX12 , unfortunately he was banned for petty reasons ( typical mp.net ) his resume that he shared is mentioned below


    I graduated in 1985 Caspian High Naval (Red Banner--only two of them existed in USSR) Academy of S.M.Kirov. Navigational faculty, specialist in gyro-inertial navigational complexes of the strategic missile systems (basic projects of SSBNs 667B-BD) but went on to serve on the surface fleet. One dive in the project 613 SSK was enough to convince me that I had enough of subs (although later I spent a lot of time on them, thankfully, mostly in the surface mode). As to give You impression who graduated my alma-mater, from Hero Of The Soviet Union (actually more than 30 of them graduated in different times) Admiral Zhiltsov to Admiral Arkhipov (You should now him as CS of 69 BRPL in Caribean Crisis) to Admiral Turilin and the list goes on and on. Even Evgenii Primakov studied for a couple of years in our alma-mater.

    Any one interested in Russian Submarine development and how it fares against US/NATO please read the thread below SmoothieX12 has provided some good details on this thread.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185135-Russian-subs-stalk-UK-SSBN-in-echo-of-Cold-War-*

    Garry you should get lot of answers on this thread.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2012 11:11 am

    As far as ASW battle goes between NATO/US and Russia , We just know one side of the story and from US side . Russian Navvy does not offically comment on what it thinks about USN Submarine fleet and how/if there could be tracked etc ....one side of story no matter how real just gives you half of picture.

    I just wished RuN/MOD released some basic information on Noise level and what they think of USN threat , US makes a big noise when Akula visits US coast , RuN should also release information of USN submarine patrol in Russian waters and make a noise via media

    Any ways here is a 1997 report of USN think about Russian Submarine fleet , it may be old but it gives a good idea on how capable Russian submarine are and its gone better .......ofcourse 1997 was also the time when Gepard was not commisioned which took Akula class to the next level of technology advancement

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1997-07/catch-quiet-ones

    Despite denials that their submarines operate out of area, declassification of several recent Russian submarine deployments proves otherwise. 5 Akula-class submarines conducted unprecedented operations off our submarine bases at both Kings Bay, Georgia, and Bangor, Washington, in an attempt to detect and track our SSBNs. Oscar II submarines in both the Pacific and Atlantic conducted intercepts of our transiting aircraft carrier battle groups and amphibious ready groups. More recently, a Victor III submarine disrupted a major NATO exercise off the coast of Britain. These partings of the ASW curtain provide just a small glimpse of current frontline Russian nuclear submarine operations against our forces. They do not begin to address how difficult it is to detect and track the modern Russian nuclear-powered submarine.

    Russian advances in submarine quieting are well documented, but published estimates tend to emphasize a general impact on overall noise levels. 6 If we consider the submarine's median detection range (MDR)—the distance at which there exists a 50% probability of target detection on a single sonobuoy—we get a more accurate illustration of the challenge: Russian submarine MDRs are only a third of what they were ten years ago. Search patterns that once were spaced several miles apart today are spaced in yards. Individual sonobuoy contact time that once was measured in minutes now is measured in seconds. Reduced MDRs also have made dual aircraft operations nearly mandatory to increase the probability of detection on large-area search patterns to acceptable levels. It also is important to note that the high-speed capabilities of Russian submarines are of less concern to the ASW tactician, because MDRs increase significantly as speed increases. Slow-speed operations, however, are lethal. The MPA community myth regarding the short MDR Russian submarine may be somewhat inflated, but no one, including our allies, tracks an Akula class submarine at patrol speeds for long.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2012 11:13 am

    I think the crux of matter as far as Akula submarine goes and it has beeen proven last year when US media released leaks of Akula patrolling US coast and then it was found in Canada and then it dissapeared etc

    No one can track an Akula for long at tactical speed , you can track it for some time but then it simply vanished without trace ..... not good if you look at from opponent perspective.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue May 15, 2012 7:30 am

    Makes an informed read

    Soviet and Russian nuclear submarine of the 4th and 5th generations Part 1

    Soviet and Russian nuclear submarine of the 4th and 5th generations. Part 2

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:32 pm

    Russian fifth-generation nuclear submarines will be after 2030

    Series production of nuclear submarines in the Russian fifth generation will begin after 2030. On Wednesday, December 19, RIA Novosti reported with reference to the Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov.

    Now the Navy submarine are the third generation. They were replaced in the near future will come fourth generation nuclear submarine project 955 "Borey" and 885 "Ash."

    According Chirkova, quoted by "Interfax", the first submarine of the "Northwind" - "Yuri Dolgoruky" - can be put into service until the end of 2012. "Subject to the completion of the final phase of testing of individual systems, which is currently carried out, signed acceptance certificate will be possible until December 30," - said the admiral.

    Earlier adoption of the "Yury Dolgoruky", which is armed with intercontinental ballistic missile R-30 "Bulava", repeatedly postponed. Until the end of 2012 as planned to complete state tests second submarine of project 955 "Alexander Nevsky".

    The lead ship of the "Ash", the submarine "Severodvinsk", according Chirkova, will join the Navy in 2013. Now, said the admiral, the submarine is a full-scale test. In November, the first submarine cruise missiles to shoot "Calibre" on ground targets. According Chirkova, submarine project "Ash" can engage ground targets in 1.5 thousand kilometers from the coast.

    Total Navy planned in 2020 to arm ten ships of the "Northwind". By 2021, as anticipated seven ships of the "clear."

    In the course of talking to journalists Viktor Chirkov also spoke about the construction of surface ships for the Navy. The admiral said that in the medium term basis naval surface forces in the far-and near-sea area of ​​the project will amount to 2235.0 frigates and corvettes Project 2038.0. According to the draft 2038.0 built three ships ("Guarding", "Savvy" and "Courageous"), two of which are accepted for service.

    The main ocean-going ships, according to Viktor Chirkov, in the medium term will be the destroyer of the new project. The ship will have a large impact and defensive capabilities, including in the field of missile defense.

    By 2016, according to the Commander, Navy will also receive six frigates of Project 1135.6. In 2013, the system will enter a large landing ship (LST) "Ivan Gren" Project 1171.1. BDK descent to the water is scheduled for May.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:02 pm

    Austin wrote:Russian fifth-generation nuclear submarines will be after 2030

    That does not mean we wont see another 4th generation SSN Very Happy Very Happy in 5000t-8000t class.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:10 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:Russian fifth-generation nuclear submarines will be after 2030

    That does not mean we wont see another 4th generation SSN Very Happy Very Happy in 5000t-8000t class.

    I think this and next decade they will build more Yasen class that is what they hinted at
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:28 pm

    They need to lay down more boats soon if the 2020 plan has any chance of being met, let alone more boats.
    I think it is safe to say at this point the 2020 date for 8 boats will not be met.

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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Hachimoto on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:51 pm

    This sierra upgrade is a good thing but it also proof they have big troubles in mass production of Yasen and pretty much any new design .. whichi is kind of sad knowing the russian history
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Viktor on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:16 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:This sierra upgrade is a good thing but it also proof they have big troubles in mass production of Yasen and pretty much any new design .. whichi is kind of sad knowing the russian history

    Funny thing is that the same thing could be said about the Borei class, until only recently, but now Russia is trying to make all 8 of them

    by 2018 which is 2 year before schedule.
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    Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:28 pm

    but it also proof they have big troubles in mass production of Yasen

    I don't think that is a fair assumption. T-90AMs can easily be produced in numbers yet they upgrade T-72s.

    Most of it has to do with what they already have.

    Ti hulled vessels would be horrendously expensive to make now, so rebuilding them makes a lot of sense in terms of value for money.

    There will be issues with developing the Yasen, just as there were issues with developing the Lada and Lada-M... that is perfectly normal, and just shows these are brand new vessels rather than just warmed over upgrades... which is a very good thing in terms of performance.

    If you look at the air force they are making Su-30SMs as well as Su-35S and PAK FAs, and they are buying Mig-35s, which suggests they are prepared to spend money to get a good product into service.

    The total number of platforms is reducing so the new platforms have to perform the role of several old platforms, plus upgrades have a place too. A Mig-29SMT can perform the mission of the Mig-23 and the Mig-27 combined... in fact it can do both jobs even better than the previous generation aircraft. The Su-34 will replace 2-3 Su-24s each.

    The difference with the navy is that previously each ship had a customised set of sensors, propulsion, and weapons for its job. The Udaloy and Sov classes were similar sizes but had different weapons, different sensors, and even different propulsion systems. New and upgraded vessels will have multipurpose sensors, weapons, and propulsion and will be produced in larger production runs. The result will be cheaper to operate and maintain, cheaper training and repair, and much more formidable sensors and weapons loads.


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