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    Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

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    nemrod

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    Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  nemrod on Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:59 pm

    Untill now, I used to believe that F22 and B2A were the ultimate US weapons against Russia, and no export russian weapons match with these hardwares. I was so anxious, this why I posted the subject here in Russia defense forum, hoping to know your opinion.

    I searched, and a friend in another forum, sent me  this  links where  colonel Đorđe Aničić said that during the war against Serbia, almost the the half of the world with nearly 1000 aircrafts were in war against little Serbia. However unable to won in a decicive way the war against Serbia. Colonel Đorđe Aničić commanded the 250 th Brigade anti aircraft missile, he  explained that they downed 5 aircrafts, 3 were acknowledged by nato, but the 2 others, Nato refuses to admit the losses.

    He said, they downed F-117, and B2A that crashed into Croatia after downed by DCA.

    I understand now, why just only 20 B2 were built, and F-117 retired from USAF. I understand too, why, USA did not dare, to trigger a war against Syria, as Russia was determined to help Syria.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:07 pm

    The US is a notorius liar and tries to keep its propagated image as the mightiest of the mightiest military that is untouchable to maintaine.
    They are known that they are tellings lies about their losses of aircrafts in wars such as Korean war while they made propaganda of 10:1 kill ratios between F-86 vs MiG-15 planes and reduced this numbers over years to 7:1 than 5:1 and stopped at 3:1 while the actual numbers were reported with the date when a jet was shot down with the pilot, the number of aircraft, location and hitmarks on the victim or those of the own which were lost. At the end of the day the actual losses of F-86 Sabres were 547 in air to air combats against MiG's, while 317 MiG-15 were shot down by Sabres. That is a ratio of 1.72:1 in favor for MiG's.


    Also MiG-21 vs F-4 was also in favor of MiG-21 with a similiar ratio.

    They lied and still lie about losses in korea,vietnam and Serbia. And they will continue to do so.
    A B2 bomber is an obsolete weapon that has no future and no purpose. It has no defensive systemes and every army with NVG and an old AA Flak cannon can touch it.

    And for sure an army with mediocre SAM's like Serbs had which were already outdated but still kicked US Airforce arses.
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    TR1

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:05 pm

    There are like a handful of B-2s in total.

    I think one missing right after Serbia would have been noticed.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:03 am

    Zoltan Dani and his crew are adamant to this day that they hit a "large stealth target" which they interpreted to be a B-2. They're saying they tracked the target, fired at it and registered a hit.

    One theory is that they might have hit a B-2 towed decoy or maybe managed to damage one as it's very unlikely that they actually shot down a B-2.

    On a related note, it's been confirmed since then that they did damage a second F-117 which managed to make it back to base.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:42 am

    In terms of what it can do the B-2A is no more or less useful to the US than the Tu-95 is to the Russians.

    The B-2A does cost rather more however...
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:53 am

    GarryB wrote:In terms of what it can do the B-2A is no more or less useful to the US than the Tu-95 is to the Russians.

    The B-2A does cost rather more however...

    Meaning the B-2A has the same if not lower use than a technology of mid 50's.

    I think you are right with that.
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    nemrod

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:48 pm

    Werewolf wrote:The US is a notorius liar and tries to keep its propagated image as the mightiest of the mightiest military that is untouchable to maintaine.
    They are known that they are tellings lies about their losses of aircrafts in wars such as Korean war while they made propaganda of 10:1 kill ratios between F-86 vs MiG-15 planes and reduced this numbers over years to 7:1 than 5:1 and stopped at 3:1 while the actual numbers were reported with the date when  a jet was shot down with the pilot, the number of aircraft, location and hitmarks on the victim or those of the own which were lost. At the end of the day the actual losses of F-86 Sabres were 547 in air to air combats against MiG's, while 317 MiG-15 were shot down by Sabres. That is a ratio of 1.72:1 in favor for MiG's.


    Also MiG-21 vs F-4 was also in favor of MiG-21 with a similiar ratio.

    They lied and still lie about losses in korea,vietnam and Serbia. And they will continue to do so.
    A B2 bomber is an obsolete weapon that has no future and no purpose. It has no defensive systemes and every army with NVG and an old AA Flak cannon can touch it.

    And for sure an army with mediocre SAM's like Serbs had which were already outdated but still kicked US Airforce arses.

    Indeed, the US hadware is always overrated under its real value in the battlefield.
    Iam now looking for the exact israeli losses during Kippour War, how hard it is to find a fair informations about that. In Wikipedia, the israelis claimed just only 102 aircrafts downed, and most of them by AAA. Moreover, during the 30 years of conflict between israelis and arabs, Israel claimed just only 5 aircrafts were downed in air to air combat . It is a joke! Big joke!

    Let"s back to the Vietnam war, as it was wrotten in this website, US lost at least 3.600 aircrafts fixed wings, far from 2.200 claimed in Wikipedia.
    Well, if US lost at least 3.600 aircrafts during Vietnam war, by which miracle Israel lost 102 aircrafts, and 5 in air to air combat during 30 years ? Do not forget too, during the kippour war, as in attrition war between Egypt and Israel, many soviet pilots were involved, like in Vietnam. I suspect, many Mig 21 were piloted by soviets, and caused a big damage during Rollingthunder, and Linebacker I, and II, as in Kippour War, and Attrition war.

    If someone among you could tell me about the exact US losses during desert storm in 1991, because I don't believe DoD's figures, as they claimed just 52 aircrafts fixed wings. Do not forget that most of the Iraqis air defense was soviets's sam origins.

    Thx Werewolf about the korean's war figures. I ignored this too.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  SOC on Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:There are like a handful of B-2s in total.

    I think one missing right after Serbia would have been noticed.

    Don't forget that they've never not been nuclear assets. As such they're treaty accountable. If a loss was either reported to Russia as a status change or discovered by Russia through the various inspection processes why would they have kept quiet about it?
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    nemrod

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:05 pm

    Thx to all for your explanations.

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    flamming_python

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:00 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Zoltan Dani and his crew are adamant to this day that they hit a "large stealth target" which they interpreted to be a B-2. They're saying they tracked the target, fired at it and registered a hit.

    One theory is that they might have hit a B-2 towed decoy or maybe managed to damage one as it's very unlikely that they actually shot down a B-2.

    On a related note, it's been confirmed since then that they did damage a second F-117 which managed to make it back to base.

    ZOLTAN!

    Come on, you can't take a guy seriously - with a name like that Smile
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  macedonian on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:23 pm

    SOC wrote:Don't forget that they've never not been nuclear assets.  As such they're treaty accountable.  If a loss was either reported to Russia as a status change or discovered by Russia through the various inspection processes why would they have kept quiet about it?
    Oh " treaty accountable" eh?! Yes, that sounds reasonable - by all means tell me more Very Happy ...are you truly suggesting that we (the world's citizens) should (at this very moment, knowing what we know?!) go about trusting you Americans about respecting any sort of treaty or law? Hilarious! I wouldn't trust a government employed American as far as I can throw him...(sh-t...I just realized how much I enjoy throwing an American employed by the US Govt.) Very Happy
    Preach to someone who hasn't been affected in a bad way by your government (p.s. good luck finding such an imaginary person Very Happy ).


    flamming_python wrote:
    ZOLTAN!

    Come on, you can't take a guy seriously - with a name like that Smile
    Keep practicing FP...as much as I like you, I ha(t)ve to tell you: "When sense of humor was given out, you weren't waiting in line"...I do understand the English influence though...
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:49 pm

    Americans have constantly ignored START1/2 treaties and haven't fullfilled obligations to reduce the nuclear weaponary in the necessary speed which was aggreed on in the terms.

    The entire USAF is based on the sholders of PR of its multi trln development of the stealth programm aircrafts. A F-117 was shot down and they had immidiatley to retire it, it was not worth. Bombing some Bananarepublics and than coming to such a small country with 1mln less population than New York city and getting ass beaten by export outdated models and highly sophisticated tactics and strategic decoys of airfields,tanks and so on.

    US was so desperate they purposley started to target civilians because they couldn't comprimise the military effectivness.

    The B-2 is an unworth bird, no defense suite except its "stealth" which only functions against iraqis without air defense network and any night capability and with an army that struggled through two decades of sanctions that crippled the military strenght to a white elephant.

    That is the current situation of USAF, their actuall power still lies on older generations of F-15,F-16 and F-18, no more nor less.
    F-22,B-2 and F-35 will NEVER be an asset on a military equal level.

    You can imagine the F-35 as a person which is 1.45m tall and about same size in horizontal sphere with all fancy new weapons like a PKP,Shmel,RPG-30/32 and is supposed to surve in GRU unit.

    A clumsy fat little guy that thinks he can become a warrior.

    They are just PR and money makers for MIC.

    Unfinished technology that still thumbles in the past like F-22, no IRST, the radar is outdated even by PESA like export model of IRBIS radar, lack of functionality, overprized garfield that prefers to stay at home in the warm.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    US was so desperate they purposley started to target civilians because they couldn't comprimise the military effectivness.

    The B-2 is an unworth bird, no defense suite except its "stealth" which only functions against iraqis without air defense network and any night capability and with an army that struggled through two decades of sanctions that crippled the military strenght to a white elephant.

    That is the current situation of USAF, their actuall power still lies on older generations of F-15,F-16 and F-18, no more nor less.
    F-22,B-2 and F-35 will NEVER be an asset on a military equal level.

    You can imagine the F-35 as a person which is 1.45m tall and about same size in horizontal sphere with all fancy new weapons like a PKP,Shmel,RPG-30/32 and is supposed to surve in GRU unit.

    A clumsy fat little guy that thinks he can become a warrior.

    They are just PR and money makers for MIC.

    Unfinished technology that still thumbles in the past like F-22, no IRST, the radar is outdated even by PESA like export model of IRBIS radar, lack of functionality, overprized garfield that prefers to stay at home in the warm.
    IMO US air power is still best for offense. Aside from the embargo, this is the best tool for punishing naughty nations that cant quite defend themselves; ie a good 2/3ish of the world. Any decent enemy gets the two plus a NATO coalition bonus if they're lucky. and anything above that there is nukes.
    Also, I think the B-2 is a nice bird... pity it just costs 2 billion bucks a piece. The F-22 too, tho it would be too late now to restart production for both. The F-35 is a nice attempt, but basing it on the VTOL means its sh!t.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:18 am

    IMO US air power is still best for offense. Aside from the embargo, this is the best tool for punishing naughty nations that cant quite defend themselves; ie a good 2/3ish of the world.

    The US have very high standards and quite appealing (to me) morals, but they never use those standards and morals to look at their own behaviour and often use these standards to judge other nations.

    They will never invade a nation that hasn't attacked them first or where there is no value to them to attack.

    They call it being the worlds policeman, but if you examine their actions it is more a lynch mob of the willing.
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    SOC

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  SOC on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:18 am

    macedonian wrote:
    SOC wrote:Don't forget that they've never not been nuclear assets.  As such they're treaty accountable.  If a loss was either reported to Russia as a status change or discovered by Russia through the various inspection processes why would they have kept quiet about it?
    Oh " treaty accountable" eh?! Yes, that sounds reasonable - by all means tell me more Very Happy ...are you truly suggesting that we (the world's citizens) should (at this very moment, knowing what we know?!) go about trusting you Americans about respecting any sort of treaty or law? Hilarious! I wouldn't trust a government employed American as far as I can throw him...(sh-t...I just realized how much I enjoy throwing an American employed by the US Govt.) Very Happy
    Preach to someone who hasn't been affected in a bad way by your government (p.s. good luck finding such an imaginary person Very Happy ).

    Translation: there is not, nor has there ever been, any actual evidence that a B-2 was shot down.

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:31 am





    SOC wrote:Translation: there is not, nor has there ever been, any actual evidence that a B-2 was shot down


    Exact to the letter.

    Case dismissed.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:50 am

    Agreed... the fact that the US government lies is not sufficient... you need concrete evidence that a B-2 has been lost to make such a claim.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:Agreed... the fact that the US government lies is not sufficient... you need concrete evidence that a B-2 has been lost to make such a claim.
    There is lack of evidence that it was shot down but there is also big lack of trust to anything US spews out about their or enemy losses.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:15 pm

    Also very true, if the US State Department had its way no one would know of the failure of the Patriot missile system and it would all be swept under the rug.

    What they don't realise is that this shiny sunglass view of US forces... perfect forces that can do no wrong is very much like the Yes Man mentality that destroyed a lot of companies. Not being prepared to think for yourself, not being prepared to criticise things, not being open to change led to a lot of companies collapsing because no one would speak up about things going wrong.

    People speaking out about wrong doing like the now famous whistle blowers are treated like traitors and enemies of the state but if they don't stand up then the train will continue to hurtle towards the cliff and no one will do anything to change direction or stop the train.

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Слободан човек on Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:10 pm

    Somebody mentioned that we have shot down B-2. Yes, our army had indeed shot down B-2a. And I have a military document that proves it.

    Here is the document:


    http://tinyurl.com/zm8q48n


    Shot down on 20.05.199. at 00:12 hours, with S-125M Neva.

    It had crashed in Spaševanske forest in east of Croatia. Serial number AV-888-0329 (Spirit of Missouri).

    http://tinyurl.com/jdamjpy


    BTW, I have no time to translate this document in English, but I can tell you what it is about.

    In this document, commander of the 250th air-defence missile Brigade, Zoltan Dani, is asking for a high command for a leave (as a stimulative measure) for his crew as a reward for downing such a high value target. It is listed a complete crew of the S-125M Neva system, that shot it down.

    BTW, in this document it is also mentioned that Harrier was shot down on 17.05.1999. at 13:15 hours with Strela-2M, by the First Sergeant Zoran Tepanac.


    3 of B-2a had entered our airspace at the day one of them was shot down. Allegedly, one more was hit.


    Local Croatians and fire-fighters are witnesses of the crash. They had reported that they where fighting a fire on the crash-site of the "plane the size of the football field", until Americans came and closed of the forest. Americans where entering forest with trucks and exiting with the same ones, but with lowered suspension (filled up with plane wreckage). Local Croatians call that Spačevanse forest "NATO forest".


    And later, in Iraq, Americans have confirmed that they lost B-2a Spirit of Missouri, because they used exactly that Spirit against Iraq, to show that it is not destroyed. With elementary logic, you would know that it would be insane to use a plane that already had lots of flight hours from the last war, instead of using a fresh one. But they had to show, that they still have it. Of course,, nobody can actually go to their base and count the number of planes, and they could rename Spirits ans they wish, or even manufacture one is secrecy to show that all of them are there (accept the one that crashed in that accident).
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:41 am

    Слободан човек wrote:Somebody mentioned that we have shot down B-2. Yes, our army had indeed shot down B-2a. And I have a military document that proves it.

    Here is the document:


    http://tinyurl.com/zm8q48n


    Shot down on 20.05.199. at 00:12 hours, with S-125M Neva.

    It had crashed in Spaševanske forest in east of Croatia. Serial number AV-888-0329 (Spirit of Missouri).

    http://tinyurl.com/jdamjpy


    BTW, I have no time to translate this document in English, but I can tell you what it is about.

    In this document, commander of the 250th air-defence missile Brigade, Zoltan Dani, is asking for a high command for a leave (as a stimulative measure) for his crew as a reward for downing such a high value target. It is listed a complete crew of the S-125M Neva system, that shot it down.

    BTW, in this document it is also mentioned that Harrier was shot down on 17.05.1999. at 13:15 hours with Strela-2M, by the First Sergeant Zoran Tepanac.


    3 of B-2a had entered our airspace at the day one of them was shot down. Allegedly, one more was hit.


    Local Croatians and fire-fighters are witnesses of the crash. They had reported that they where fighting a fire on the crash-site of the "plane the size of the football field", until Americans came and closed of the forest. Americans where entering forest with trucks and exiting with the same ones, but with lowered suspension (filled up with plane wreckage). Local Croatians call that Spačevanse forest "NATO forest".


    And later, in Iraq, Americans have confirmed that they lost B-2a Spirit of Missouri, because they used exactly that Spirit against Iraq, to show that it is not destroyed. With elementary logic, you would know that it would be insane to use a plane that already had lots of flight hours from the last war, instead of using a fresh one. But they had to show, that they still have it. Of course,, nobody can actually go to their base and count the number of planes, and they could rename Spirits ans they wish, or even manufacture one is secrecy to show that all of them are there (accept the one that crashed in that accident).

    Zoltan Dani was not commander of 250th, only its 3rd regiment. And its the paper he wrote to suggest memebers of his unit for promotion, medal or whatnot for the deeds he claims they managed, its not proof of anything.

    Also lets say Dani is known for... being...well...a liar. He claimed for years how "he made modification on the radar to detect F117", claim which engineers from VTI exposed as complete and utter bullshit as no modifications on the equipment in the field was ever performed by anyone. To be honest he is not very popular even among his colleagues, some of which were still active at the times of my service.

    When its about B2 story it goes in same sack with famous Serbian attacks on aircraft carrier in Adriatic sea, bombing of airfields in Albania and Croatia... dropping of bricks on aircraft carrier deck etc, etc list is huge.

    Unit however still for to me unknown reasons lists B2 on their "likely shot down" list as shown here:






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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:25 am

    ^^ And this is how a person with lower superiority complex looks like.


    B-2a was 100% shot down. It was hit with both missiles fired from the S-125M Neva. Since Neva missiles have 60% probability hit, 2 missiles are always fired on one target. Being such a huge target, with low manoeuvrability, both of the missiles hit.
    You can keep convincing yourself otherwise all day, but it won't change the fact.

    Nowhere in this document does anyone ask for a medal, only for a leave as a reward (for crew to rest for a few days, with their families). Either your knowledge of Serbian is bad (maybe you are not Serbian), or you are the one lying, trying to trick non-Serbian speakers.

    Zoltan Dani "lied" about modifications to confuse Americans. American military officers have been in Serbia multiple times after 2001. asking for our army to tell them how did they spot B-2a and F-117a, how did they target them, how did they shot them down. Of course, our army did not give them correct information.
    Also, all other officers that shot down B-2a and F-117a where afraid of being sent to the Hague tribunal, so they told Dani to claim that he and only he was responsible for this, because he is Hungarian, and they will not accuse him in the Hague. later some of them changed their mind, and started accusing Dani of lying...

    I don't know it the attack on the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt is true or not, but the fact is that at one point that carrier did enter Adriatic sea near the Italian southern cost, witch was well within range of our aircraft.

    Attacks of our military aviation on the airports near Tirana in Albania and near Tuzla in Bosnia and Herzegovina, are indeed  true. 100%.

    So is the attack on the improvised heliport in between Serbia, Albania and Macedonia, where our ground forces had destroyed Chinook, Apache and a fuel tanker truck with Zolja anti-tank weapons. 1 Macedonian soldier, who was guarding this, was killed with a military crossbow.

    All NATO losses are still classified. But one day, some new Government (of Serbia) will declassified them.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:52 am

    B-2a was 100% shot down. It was hit with both missiles fired from the S-125M Neva. Since Neva missiles have 60% probability hit, 2 missiles are always fired on one target. Being such a huge target, with low manoeuvrability, both of the missiles hit.
    You can keep convincing yourself otherwise all day, but it won't change the fact.

    That is not how hit probability works...

    Firing two missiles that use the same guidance channel means if one missile is defeated there is a very large likelyhood that both missiles will be defeated...

    It is also a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction in the rules and introductions section.

    BTW my personal opinion is that it is very unlikely that a B-2 was shot down in Europe.

    Why would they cover up the loss of a B-2 yet go public with the loss of an F-117?

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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:39 pm

    It is exactly how Neva works. Second missile is fired a few seconds after the first one.

    Why would NATO hide the loss of B-2? Why would it hide losses in all wars? It hides everything it can hide. They don't want to show how they got humiliated.
    We have material evidence of F-117a shot down, but no material evidence for B-2a. Material evidence is the plane wreckage. F-117a crashed in our territory, B-2a crashed in Croatia.
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    Re: Serbians downed B-2A during 1999?

    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:46 pm

    i think the number of B-2s is too small for USA to hide any loss of them

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