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Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems559

    Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:03 pm

    If the photo legitimate (not a photoshop) than it concludes that the tracked pantsir is still alive and might see production.
    I noticed that it has 12 rockets instead of the 8 on previous photos.

    By the way Medo, why would the Army go for both TOr-M2 and tracked Pantsir? Aren't they more or less equivalent?

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:56 pm

    Ok. It is confirmed: the photo of the tracked Pantsir is real.



    And a closer look from behind of the wheeled Pantsir with the new search radar.



    Remember the first phot of the wheeled Pantsir with the new radar? Here is the ENICS target UAV it destroyed in Kapustin Yar last summer:
    http://www.enics.ru/main/news?idN=139

    medo
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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  medo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:53 pm

    Thanks for additional pictures. It seems they were prepared there for high ranking visit in KBP Tula. I wonder if this green Pantsir with new search radar is meant for Russian air force.

    Tracked Pantsir have the same turret and same radars as the one on standard wheeled Pantsir, so it for sure have the same capabilities.

    True, Pantsir and Tor-M2 are more or less equal, but still are different. In previous time ground forces also use both Tunguska and Tor-M1. Could be, that they will buy both to get more systems per year, because they are produces in different producers and that they well supplement each other in battle formation and could make electronic warfare against both of them more difficult.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TR1 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:If the photo legitimate (not a photoshop) than it concludes that the tracked pantsir is still alive and might see production.
    I noticed that it has 12 rockets instead of the 8 on previous photos.

    By the way Medo, why would the Army go for both TOr-M2 and tracked Pantsir? Aren't they more or less equivalent?

    Competing factories jockeying for orders.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:48 am

    Actually the Brigade structure of the Russian Army has two air defence battalions ... one is gun and missile (ie Tunguska) and the other is missile only (Strela-10 or Tor).

    I rather expect they will keep this structure and the Pantsir-S1 on a tracked vehicle would be manditory to keep up with tracked units. I rather suspect the TOR will replace Strela-10 (SA-13), though some units might get Morfei based units as well.

    At a higher level they will have BUK, which will likely be replaced by Vityaz/Morfei when that system comes on line.

    The whole point of the Pantsir-S1 system was to make it flexible to be a cross service system, so the trailer version, the truck mounted version, the tracked version and a naval version were all developed for the respective military arms.

    The tracked models are for tracked Army units. The trailer and truck mounted models will likely be used by the Army to defend S-300V4 systems and fixed sites because it is cheaper to buy and operate than the tracked models. The Airforce will also buy the truck and trailer models, with the former having the same wheeled mobility as the S-400 and S-500 units they will be located with, while the trailer models will be set up around fixed sites like airfields and command centres.
    The Navy will use both the ship based system and likely the trailer and truck mounted systems for defending port facilities and S-400 SAM sites and HQs.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:42 am

    I will be surprised if the navy adopts the naval version of Pantsir on the stealthy Frigates and corvettes. The Pantsir system has a poor RCS. It will make sense to have it though on the aircraft carriers as they are not stealthy at all.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:12 pm

    Some new photos from another site: http://mirabilis-ru.livejournal.com/677.html

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:18 pm

    I more think tracked Pantsir will replace Tunguska in army units, while Tor-M2 will replace old Osa, which also need replacement.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:40 am

    I will be surprised if the navy adopts the naval version of Pantsir on the stealthy Frigates and corvettes. The Pantsir system has a poor RCS. It will make sense to have it though on the aircraft carriers as they are not stealthy at all.

    The naval Pantsir-S1s will most likely be fitted to non stealthy vessels like the Kuznetsov upgrade, and Kirov upgrades and Slava upgrades.

    I would think the future of CIWS will be a combination of Duet gun turrets with stealthy enclosures, and Morfei lock on after launch IIR seeking short range missiles.

    With upgrades the Pantsir-S1 can replace both Kashtan and Klinok on large vessels receiving upgrades.

    The number of engagement channels per turret (4), and the engagement envelope... from 2m up to 15km and from1.5km out to 20km means it can tackle a wide range of threats well beyond Kashtan and Klintock... and in some parameters can exceed medium range SAMs like SA-N-7 in terms of lower ceiling and crossing range.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  medo on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:53 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/209274.html

    Russian MoD this year buy 28 Pantsirs and they sign a contract for 27 additional Mi-35M helicopters. They will also sign additional contracts for Mi-28N and Mi-8AMTSh. In total they will buy this year 58 planes and 124 helicopters

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:02 am

    medo wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/209274.html

    Russian MoD this year buy 28 Pantsirs and they sign a contract for 27 additional Mi-35M helicopters. They will also sign additional contracts for Mi-28N and Mi-8AMTSh. In total they will buy this year 58 planes and 124 helicopters

    Nice. Pretty much the one thing completely covered in new purchases, attack helos.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  medo on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:14 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    medo wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/209274.html

    Russian MoD this year buy 28 Pantsirs and they sign a contract for 27 additional Mi-35M helicopters. They will also sign additional contracts for Mi-28N and Mi-8AMTSh. In total they will buy this year 58 planes and 124 helicopters

    Nice. Pretty much the one thing completely covered in new purchases, attack helos.

    It seems they really need to replace old Mi-24.

    More interesting is, that after those critics, MoD increase orders for Pantsirs. This year they will get 4 complete batteries.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:32 pm

    Their Hind fleet would be a little worn out and in need of replacement ASAP.

    Of course they wont need replacement one for one as the new helos are far more capable than the older models.

    Even just being able to operate at night makes them much safer from enemy action, as does the bad weather capability. The laser rangefinder and stabilised magnified optics and ballistics computers make even unguided cannon and rocket fire much more accurate and effective even without such things as Ugroza... if it will be used.

    The significant purchase of Pantsirs is interesting... and necessary... this is part of the counter to cruise missile decapitation attack popular in the west.

    The current talk from the US involves the arrival of enough ships and subs to deploy about 430 cruise missiles... which is four times the number they used against Libya. It is clearly an indication that the Iranian air defence forces are perceived to be much stronger than Libyas and they need extra brute force to overcome it.

    With a fully operational IAD and well positioned systems you can be much more efficient in your use of AD assets and systems. The key with cruise missiles is early detection... with aircraft in the air even a simple AAM is an effective anti cruise missile weapon, but obviously layers is the key... even an enormous volley attack of Tomahawks is useless against deep underground bunkers, so clearly their targets will be communications centres, radar sites, air defence sites, and airfields. They need to take out some or all of the air defence network before they can risk the big heavy bombers needed to bring in the deep penetration bombs needed to take on the deep underground shelters.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  medo on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:09 pm

    Of course they wont need replacement one for one as the new helos are far more capable than the older models.

    I don't know, how much it is true, but I read somewhere, that Russia operate only around 300 Mi-24 and they are planing to buy 300 Mi-28N, 140 Ka-52 and 50 Mi-35M, so more than one for one...



    The significant purchase of Pantsirs is interesting... and necessary... this is part of the counter to cruise missile decapitation attack popular in the west.
    [quote]

    True. I also think that every S-400 battalion get one battery of Pantsirs for protection. This year RuAF will have 8 battalions of S-400 and let say 20 previous and 28 from this year, they will have 8 batteries of Pantsirs to complete their protection.

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    Re: Russian Air Force receives first 10 new air-defense systems

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:22 am

    I don't know, how much it is true, but I read somewhere, that Russia operate only around 300 Mi-24 and they are planing to buy 300 Mi-28N, 140 Ka-52 and 50 Mi-35M, so more than one for one...

    Perhaps that answers our questions about how the Mi-28 is entering service without the fully President-M system fully integrated or why they are buying Mi-35M2 and Mi-28N and Ka-52. Last time I read about numbers there were over 500 Hinds in service so various conflicts and exercises have clearly taken their toll on numbers, plus of course many were simply due for retirement anyway... helicopters are fairly high maintainence vehicles so it is no surprise that after 20 odd years of neglect that they might be in bad shape and need replacement.

    True. I also think that every S-400 battalion get one battery of Pantsirs for protection. This year RuAF will have 8 battalions of S-400 and let say 20 previous and 28 from this year, they will have 8 batteries of Pantsirs to complete their protection.

    Their versatility and mobility also make them very useful... I would expect they will try to get as many as they can afford.

    In terms of performance at sea nothing shows the improvement more than a small patrol boat getting Pantsir-S1 to replace a Kashtan-M mount. Now Kashtan-M is a good system with its 10km range missiles and 4km range 30mm guns the biggest threat to a small patrol boat... helicopters and fixed wing aircraft are kept at arms length with very few helos able to attack with common weapons from more than 8km or so.
    Compared with a MANPADS turret firing mistral or stinger or igla which max out at 6-7km a helo like an Apache can stand off with 8km range Hellfires and hammer that boat. The boat will not be fast enough to outrun or out manouver a helo and would rely on trying to shoot down the incoming missiles.

    With Pantsir-S1 the range of the missiles extends the engagement range to 20km which means that helicopters can be engaged before they launch.

    The flat open sea is one thing however, on land the advantage shifts even further in favour of the ground platform because the radar picture of the surrounding airspace can be accessed via datalink with the ground vehicle able to search passively using thermal and optical sights and the terrain can make detection of the ground vehicle difficult or impossible till it is too late. The clever use of terrain to defend a target means you can place individual vehicles in places to passively detect threats and pass target data on to the rest of the defence... for instance imagine a flat open valley with something you are protecting on that plain, but there is a small hill 4-5km away that an enemy might use to observe from behind. Your vehicles around the target can't see through the hill so an approach from behind the hill and then popping up from behind the hill to observe and then launch an attack from makes a lot of sense... except the defenders already thought of that and have stationed a 2-3 Pantsir-S1s in the forest beyond the small hill which the attacking helos flew over on their way to the small hill. Those vehicles would pass target data to the IAD network and a squad of fighters is on the way... after they launch their attack (they can do so from medium range because the targets have already be identified as hostile and are cleared to fire) any survivors can be mopped up with the forward located Pantsir-S1s which can each engage 4 targets at a time... though I would think of a flight of 6-8 helos that the fighters will have taken out more than half with R-77s already... of course an observation unit on top of the small hill with Iglas could also have called up an air attack and alerted the ground forces, but if instead of half a dozen helos the threat was 20-30 cruise missiles flying low and fast with the first missile aimed at the radar station on top of the hill then lets assume the first warning is the first cruise missile detected at 10km by the radar on top of the hill, decoys and jammers would be pointless as the missiles are guided to a coordinate rather than a signal, but the very high speed of the Pantsir-S1 missiles might make interception possible if they are ready. Border assets detecting the incoming missiles several minutes before hand would greatly increase the chances of survival. If alerted the three Pantsir-S1 vehicles could take on 12 targets at once till they run out of ammo. The radar on the hill could possibly survive because only the first few missiles will be going for the radar, the rest will be aimed at the known AD vehicle positions around the target and the target itself. Early detection would also lead to getting fighters into the air and their efforts will thin out the numbers of threats the ground based systems will have to deal with...

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