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    VKO (Aero Space Defence)

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    GarryB

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:15 am

    The VKKO only formed on December 1st 2011 and they only appointed the command structure (which was largely the VKO command structure) just before then.

    If the Space and Air Defence Forces don't have fighters and interceptors how do they defend Russian Air Space?

    More importantly with the Air Force command structure split amongst the 4 new military districts what happens in an enemy cruise missile is programmed to weave in and out of the border of two MDs?

    The VKKOs equipment includes ground and air and space assets to defend Russian Air Space. AWACS aircraft will be useful, but Interceptors and fighters will actually be required to do the actual defending.

    I think the main problem is that the VKKO is still in the process of being created as shown by the article I posted above in post 19.

    Particularly:

    MiG-31 interceptors are an integral part of a comprehensive aerospace defense network being created in Russia to thwart any potential airborne threats, including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    This role is clearly being performed by the VVS at the moment, but will likely be handed to the VKKO once they are organised and equipped for the job.

    Simply creating a Russia wide command and control structure and integrating all its new assets will take time.
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    George1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:

    If the Space and Air Defence Forces don't have fighters and interceptors how do they defend Russian Air Space?

    I agree 100%. How they will get down UFOs also? Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:13 pm

    You joke, but UFOs actually exist.

    Between detection and sending a plane out to identify the target most blips on a radar screen are unknown flying objects.

    That is the whole point of sending planes to investigate.
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    George1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:You joke, but UFOs actually exist.

    Between detection and sending a plane out to identify the target most blips on a radar screen are unknown flying objects.

    That is the whole point of sending planes to investigate.

    No, i was serious. Soviet air force fought UFOs. I think last technology stealth PAK-FA will be the perfect for all threats (F-22 that maybe accompany B-52, and other objects).
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    TR1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:05 pm

    They will carry out Air Defense with long range SAMs, the VVS will not be amused at the concept of handing over its MiG-31s, not to mention, where would they base them? They were just consolidated into the new air bases, alongside other aircraft often, no point in complicating the structure with control overlap on one airbase by multiple commands.
    The structure is new, so yes we will see what the form it takes is in the next few years, but something as big as taking fighters would have been brought up on Russian forums, and I have seen nothing suggesting this.

    I'll wager a bottle of fine vodka that the VVS won't be handing over anything.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:40 am

    I'll wager a bottle of fine vodka that the VVS won't be handing over anything.

    The VVS controlled the PVO, now if the VKKO is the merge of the PVO and the VKO how do you merge two things without handing over stuff?

    If what you are saying is accurate then the VKKO is the VKO and the PVO has been absorbed by the VVS.

    I don't think that is the case.
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    TR1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:58 am

    They are taking ground based air defense equipment, certainly, no argument there, but not the entirety of what was once PVO.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:08 am

    Well the VVS had its own SAMS and radars too, just like the Army did.

    The PVO stuff mainly was radars and SAMs that protected strategic sites and major HQs etc.

    When Gary Powers was shot down it was during the May Day Parade... one of the interceptors sent up to intercept him was shot down because they hadn't changed their IFF settings for the new month (because of the May Day celebration) so the SAM operators couldn't tell their own interceptors from the target.

    The interceptors were PVO, while many of the SAM sites were Air Force as the U2 was photographing airfields.

    The Air Force changed their codes for the new month but the PVO didn't.

    I know it is not particularly reliable but Wiki lists the RVO assets in 1990 as:

    The PVO inventory of 1990 was:

    2,410 interceptors
    210 Su-27 Flanker
    850 MiG-23 Flogger
    350 MiG-25 Foxbat
    360 MiG-31 Foxhound
    500 Su-15 Flagon
    90 Yak-28 Firebar
    50 Tu-128 Fiddler

    AWACS aircraft
    7 Tupolev Tu-126 Moss
    1 Beriev A-50 Mainstay

    Surface to air missiles on strength in 1990 included:[16]

    1,400 S-25 Berkut - being replaced by the Almaz S-300 and expected to be replaced by the Almaz S-400 Triumf
    2,400 Lavochkin S-75 Dvina
    1,000 Isayev S-125 Neva\Pechora - 300+ sites, 2 or 4 missile launchers and rails
    1,950 Almaz S-200 Angara\Vega\Dubna - 130 sites
    1,700 Almaz S-300 - 85 sites, 15 more building
    ABM-1 Galosh Anti-Ballistic Missile, part of the A-35 missile defense system


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    GarryB

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    Russian Aerospace Defence forces

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:41 am

    Now if you look at this:

    Russia’s Aerospace Defense Forces to go on duty on Thursday

    00:52 01/12/2011

    Russia’s newly created Aerospace Defense Forces (VKO) will officially go on duty on Thursday, VKO spokesman Alexei Zolotukhin said.

    “At 10:00 am Moscow time (06:00 GMT) on December 1, the first shift of the Aerospace Defense Forces command will go on duty,” Zolotukhin told journalists in Moscow on Wednesday.

    Russian President Dmitry Medvedev proposed the creation of the VKO, an analog of the European missile defense system, to replace the Russian Space Forces, in 2010. The VKO brings together the air defense and missile defense systems, as well as the early missile warning and space control systems, under a unified command.

    “The VKO system is capable of destroying enemy ballistic missiles attacking important state objects, observe space objects, detect threats to Russia from space, and respond to such threats if needed, as well as launch spacecraft and fulfill other tasks,” Zolotukhin said.

    More than 3,000 military and civil personnel will be joining VKO units on a daily basis, he added.

    It seems to not mention air defence except the line "The VKO brings together the air defense and missile defense systems, as well as the early missile warning and space control systems, under a unified command."

    The focus seems to be more an ABM and space defence, yet there is little point in defending a strategic site from ballistic missiles if cruise missiles can just fly in and hit them, or stealth bombers fly in and drop dumb bombs on them for that matter.

    If you look back at this article I posted:

    Russia Keeps 30 MiG-31 Interceptors on High-Alert Duty

    MiG-31 interceptors are an integral part of a comprehensive aerospace defense network being created in Russia to thwart any potential airborne threats, including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    So Air and Space Defence forces, has become Aerospace Defence Forces, so instead of VKKO it perhaps retains the acronym of VKO but with slightly different words meaning air and space instead of space... and Mig-31s are an integral part of the new network.

    Also:

    Military and space defense covers 2 / 3 of Russia
    context

    Space defense will work 70 thousand Russian officers

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    22/07/2011 11:27

    Mozhaisk (Moscow Region), July 22 - RIA Novosti. Joint Forces Strategic Command (USC) military space defense (ASD) cover two-thirds of the territory of Russia, told reporters on Friday the commander of the USC WSO Lt. Gen. Valery Ivanov.

    "We camouflage two-thirds of the country, we have about 800 people daily intrudes on duty - protecting the city of Moscow," - he said.

    According to Ivanov, the main task of ASD - to cover the capital and the central industrial areas.

    The general also said that by the year 2015 is expected to supply troops in the new complex the S-500. "By 2015 we'll have new radio equipment - new fighters and new S-500" - he said. According to him, that "this is an entirely new generation technology."

    On creation of a unified system of ASD Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced in November 2010 to address the Federal Assembly. We are talking about a uniform system that will perform all the tasks set before the EBA for the future - including the prevention, detection, elimination, suppression and protection facilities.

    USC troops ASD are based on a special command, which will provide air and missile defense of Moscow. They should be part of a unified system of ASD Russia. Now USC WSO controls the airspace over the central industrial region of Russia and is responsible for air defense of Moscow. The troops of cover in total more than 140 objects of government, industry and energy, transport and communications, as well as nuclear power plants.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110722/405448162.html

    I think this portion of translated news report that responds to some claims that the VKO was taking over from the VVS:

    In July, the commander of the operational-strategic command (USC) ASD Lt. Gen. Valery Ivanov, in turn, reported that the aircraft that solves the problem of air defense, after the formation of a new kind of forces would report directly to the commander of the WSO USC.

    So they might be VVS planes but they get their orders from the new VKO.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:15 am

    More info on the Aerospace Defence Force.


    Russia deploys airspace umbrella

    20:21 02/12/2011
    RIA Novosti military commentator Konstantin Bogdanov

    Russia has organized an aerospace defense branch. The new service branch consolidates units, troops and systems that once worked separately to keep the skies above the country clear.

    The Aerospace Defense (ASD) system was organized at the direction of the Russian president and officially commenced on December 1.

    "The first duty relief to be activated has taken responsibility for the missile attack warning system, anti-missile defense, air defense, space surveillance and satellite launch systems," ASD spokesman Colonel Alexei Zolotukhin said on Thursday.

    All the way from ground to space

    ASD is based on the space troops organization and consolidates the following sections:

    - A missile attack warning system;

    - A space surveillance system;

    - A military space launch infrastructure:

    - Air defense missile troops of the Air Force;

    - The aerospace defense unified strategic command (earlier based on the Moscow missile defense system)

    The branch is subdivided into three sections: the space command, the air and anti-missile defense command, and the Plesetsk military space center.

    In this way, all available information on a possible aerospace attack and the control for engaging both ballistic and aerodynamic (aircraft and cruise missile) targets will be concentrated in one command system.

    ASD troops now control all air defense radar stations, early warning radar systems and orbital intelligence systems (both ground- and satellite-based). Other facilities include S-300 aerospace defense brigades and Moscow's anti-missile defense system equipped with silo-launched interceptors of intercontinental warheads.

    Hodgepodge inheritance

    The Aerospace Defense branch is another attempt to do something with the Soviet legacy in such interlinked areas as anti-missile defense, the country's air defense, missile attack early warning systems, space surveillance, and military space infrastructure.

    In fact, all these systems were established simultaneously and partly complemented one another. Many facilities to defend the Soviet Union from space were "unique and unmatched by anything else": the response measures were designed with special technology and principles of combat application.

    Now the operational philosophy of the armed forces has changed. One can criticize specific points but the general trend is simple: Russia is trying to live within its means by integrating its forces and using "all-purpose platforms."

    It has been specifically noted that existing systems still capable of being upgraded (A-135 anti-missile system of the Moscow industrial area) should be interfaced with new weapons and information systems to be aligned with the aerospace defense system in the coming years.

    The question is how it will all be integrated in practice. It has often been argued, when testing automatic battle management facilities, that some or all systems should be integrated. Integration programs so far have entailed providing two monitor screens for one operator and thus displaying the combat situations from two different systems, not an automatic exchange of data between them.

    The A-135 system is classified, but what is known about its predecessor - (A-35M) - makes one pause: developers of future synchronized mobile aerospace defense systems are facing challenging problems.

    Real and contemplated weapons

    Under the weapons procurement program until 2020, 56 battalions in the armed forces are to be equipped with S-400 air defense systems (four battalions have already received the equipment, another two to four will receive it by early 2012) and ten battalions will received S-500 systems (the program is in the first phase of its development).

    The last system, it seems, will bear the main burden of anti-missile duties. According to military experts, the system will include a missile for the exo-atmospheric interception of ballistic targets. The S-500 system, according to plans, will be deployed after 2015.

    By 2015, incidentally, the Mints Radio Engineering Institute (which has developed most of our early warning radar) promises to roll out a fully prefabricated radar unit called the Mars. It is a mobile version of the Voronezh radar system now being adopted in Russia's missile attack early warning system. It is reasonable to assume that the two systems (the S-500 and the Mars) are being developed in tandem as a weapon and information means of anti-missile defense.

    The tortuous progress in heavy systems development has already brought Russia's air defense to a peculiar state. Unable to select a unified platform for the country's, army and navy air defense systems in the 1970s, the ministry purchased all three and demanded "maximum unification" (which was achieved only nominally because of the different approaches to designs).

    As a result, the army and air defenses are now facing a decision between two design-different but purpose-similar anti-aircraft systems. One is the S-400, which has succeeded the "anti-aircraft" S-300P, taught to intercept tactical ballistic missiles. And the other is the S-300VM/BMD Antei-2500, a derivative of the army's S-300V missile hunter, which has been successful in hitting aerodynamic targets. The logic is forcing these two systems, for all their distinctions, to look increasingly alike.

    Current plans, in this class, provide for only S-400s and Vityaz systems - the next generation of medium-range surface-to-air systems, which must supersede the earlier S-300Ps. No confirmed plans for the army's heavy AD systems have been announced, with just a few hints that available S-300Vs will be upgraded to S-300V4s.

    This shows that, on the one hand, Russia's aerospace defense is only beginning to integrate its weapons systems. On the other, the overall amount set aside for rearmament (about 20 trillion rubles for the next ten years), as seen against the background of continued difficulties in the industry, often compels the military to make simple decisions: what to take and what to discard.

    For the moment it is hard to say how much the Antei anti-ballistic technology will be needed for the development of the S-500. But, judging from decisions made public, the focus on the Antei-Almaz approach as a single platform in aerospace defenses is becoming increasingly obvious.

    The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.
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    George1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:51 pm

    Mig-31s, Su-35s will be assigned to PVO?
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    TR1

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    Re: VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:49 pm

    George1 wrote:Mig-31s, Su-35s will be assigned to PVO?

    No, the new organization will not have fixed wing assets. Su-35 is all going to VVS, and MiG-31 has been VVS for years.
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    GarryB

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    Aerospace Defence Forces

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:17 am

    The Air Force will however keep quite a few interceptors on standby in case a threat is detected via radar.

    The Aerospace Forces would alert the VVS, who would likely send up some Mig-31s to investigate and determine if there is a real threat or not.

    The VVS pilots would be under ADF control and would report their observations to the ADF, and if identified as a threat to aircraft like a balloon that is unmanned floating toward busy airspace which means it becomes a danger to air traffic the ADF might order the VVS pilot to shoot it down, or if it is manned order it to land.

    If the threat is a slow mover like a balloon they might send helicopters to intercept and inspect the target.

    I remember a case in I think it was Bulgaria where a balloon from a race was floating into Bulgarian airspace.

    It was described in Air Forces Monthly magazine in a rather scathing article that talked about the brutal Bulgarian Hind crew shooting down the manned balloon using bursts of cannon fire which of course killed the crew of the clearly marked racing balloon.

    The following month however there was a reply from the Bulgarian side that stated that the balloon was unmarked and silver and that there was not evidence it was manned. The 12.7mm gatling gun on the Hind has no single fire mode so after determining the balloon was unmanned the commander decided to bring the balloon down with a short burst of fire as it was floating towards a high traffic area and especially at night would be a serious danger to air traffic, so he fired a short burst and in his words the canopy disintegrated and the balloon dropped like a stone.

    The ADF has the SAM missile systems of the PVO but it seems the VVS is keeping the interceptors, which I guess makes a lot of sense as having separate ADF airfields and a whole logistics chain would be wasteful.

    The question however is... whose budget pays for dedicated interceptors like the Mig-31 and how will future replacements be funded?

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