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    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:54 pm

    I'll be frank.
    Destroying Russia isn't too difficult.

    One way is with Immigration, but it's very long term.

    All you need to do is convince "1" administration to implement something like a "Hard Seller Act", and wait.
    The trick is to have enough immigrants flood Russia and to become "their" representatives, and slowly yet surely you will rise to power and take over the nation, and this will send the displaced locals against you, which will divide the nation and eventually lead to major conflict.

    Another way is to crash the nation Economically, this would be even simpler and more short term.

    All you need to do is offer Free-Stuff (Welfare).
    Basically you hook the people up on Welfare and make that the determining factor for an election victory, in short, bribe the entire nation.
    This will then cause massive Debt-Spiral that cannot be stopped.
    Because all those in power swore to give more Welfare.

    Another way is through Subverting Russian Culture and Morals.

    We already know this one, simply put, it's the rise of a Russian Proggressivism (Utopian Cultural Socialism).

    Luckily, the Russian Orthodoxy is still very strong in Russia as well as Patriotism still being strong as well.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:59 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:I'll be frank.
    Destroying Russia isn't too difficult.

    Put the crack pipe down...If it wasn't so difficult it would of happened during Operation Barbarossa, but didn't.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:44 am

    BTW, the story being missed is how social media has utterly failed to undermine Russia. Russians were supposed to lap up western
    excrement with relish on Facebook, Twitter, etc. But instead of joining the circle jerk club, they have instead created their own
    pro-Russian mind-space. This is an epic failure for NATO. It means any regime agenda it had is dead, dead, dead. The Russian
    youth is not drinking NATO propaganda koolaid. The reason is that NATO propaganda against Russia is a wad of cheesball lies
    that insult the intelligence of Russian citizens. Back during the USSR period, NATO propaganda had a hook in that the USSR
    was a dictatorship and a sub-optimal regime for Russia. But the USSR is dead and any propaganda that tries to pretend it is
    not, which is what NATO propaganda is doing all the time, is doomed to failure.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:16 am

    I'll be frank.
    Destroying Russia isn't too difficult.

    Yeah the west has this enormous propaganda machine, but it is no where near as efficient and effective as they like to make out it to be.

    Destroying the west is even easier... that soldier that follows Putin around carrying that briefcase... open it and push a few buttons and done.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:29 am

    Ok, let me clarify
    Destroying Russia "from within" isn't too difficult.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:59 am

    Well before he tried from the outside Russia was weak and all he had to do was kick the door in and the whole place would collapse... like France, like Belgium, like most other european countries Germany actually invaded...

    Of course saying is not the same as actually doing... there is rather more economic disparity and racial problems in the US... it wouldn't take too much to stir things up there either

    I remember in the 1990s talking with American teenagers on the internet and they went on about how easy less civilised countries were to break... they thought people in foreign countries were just animals waiting to behave like animals as soon as the rule of law was interrupted... of course that was before the Rodney King beatings and several other riots in several places in the US... the reason countries bother with laws and law enforcers of all types is because people can't manage it on their own... I mean professional soccer players are well aware of all the rules yet their games require match officials or nothing would happen.

    America and the west are no different except that being much further from nature most westerners wouldn't know what to do when the rubbish man stops collecting their rubbish, let alone where the nearest safe water supply is to where they live...

    When New Orleans flooded a short while back people sat on freeways a few hundred metres from stadiums set up as help centres... they couldn't make 100 metres through the water to get there... in some poor African country some guy carries his mother through a mountain range to get help for her...

    Comfort has made western people fat and lazy.
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    Post  Hole on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:20 am

    No need to stir something up in murika. What is happening there would be called civil war in an african or asian country.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 am

    If black people were being shot so regularly and for such trivial reasons (like being black which made me scared), or the large number of prisoners they have locked up in Guantanimo without charge... including children in Russia the west would have a fit.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:America and the west are no different except that being much further from nature most westerners wouldn't know what to do when the rubbish man stops collecting their rubbish, let alone where the nearest safe water supply is to where they live...

    When New Orleans flooded a short while back people sat on freeways a few hundred metres from stadiums set up as help centres... they couldn't make 100 metres through the water to get there... in some poor African country some guy carries his mother through a mountain range to get help for her...

    Comfort has made western people fat and lazy.

    Not necessary comfort, we already knew the huge gap between rich and poor in Western capitalistic countries, especially in the US. My opinion in the anti-scientific mode eating and working mode in Western countries, which for example the domination of fastfood and the working style of office workers - the combination of high calroies input and low muscle utilization work.

    Such lifestyle is detrimental to the health of the workers, but is highly profitable for capitalists who hire them. Capitalists wanted workers to stay at office in full day to bring profit to the companies, technological develoments do not reduce the workload and working time, workers still have to fulfill the same working hours to make an increasing profit for capitalists. And the fastfood was created to fit into such an exhausting lifestyle, the fastfood is detrimental to the health of workers but it is profitable for producers and it enable the workers to concentrating on generating profit for companies.

    I believe, under that viewpoint we can see how and why the services and goods like nursing home care, domestic workers, processed foods,... and lifestyle like minimalism exists and functions in Western society plus Japan and South Korea. In such societies workers are chained to the offices all days with exhausting workload, they have few times for family, friends, housekeeping, personal hobbies,... and the capitalist instead of reducing the office workload, they create services and goods to reduce the house work and permanently break the family bond so that workers are "free" to concentrate on working affairs for the capitalists. Capitalists also tends to increase consumption by creating artificial needs to increase sales and profits.

    Production in Western society is to serve the needs of producers, not consumers. And workers do not have free time to work for their own, most of their working time is for the profit and needs of who hire them.

    GarryB wrote:If black people were being shot so regularly and for such trivial reasons (like being black which made me scared), or the large number of prisoners they have locked up in Guantanimo without charge... including children in Russia the west would have a fit.

    Western armies and polices are designed to shot against the people when things happen, not protecting people. Therefore even the low ranking police are armed to the teeth and are taught to see any suspicious people and killable targets.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:26 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:I'll be frank.
    Destroying Russia isn't too difficult.

    One way is with Immigration, but it's very long term.

    All you need to do is convince "1" administration to implement something like a "Hard Seller Act", and wait.
    The trick is to have enough immigrants flood Russia and to become "their" representatives, and slowly yet surely you will rise to power and take over the nation, and this will send the displaced locals against you, which will divide the nation and eventually lead to major conflict.

    Xenophobia is the natural result of separation class interest and national interest.

    Reactionary American Hmongs emigre are still trying to provoke rebellions and instability in South East Asia. But Hmong people in Vietnam are still loyal to the Communist Party and the government. Why ? The government and the party are trying their best to promote the living standard of the minority ethics and pay respect to their cultural identity. The Communist Party and Hmong people fought together against imperialism and saw the common interest. Hmong people now is taking parts in policy making and country building.

    And that is the key of national unity, when the minorities see that the major race are helping them and promoting them, the minorities will repay in kind.

    We have to understand that xenophobia, islamophobia and racism are used to isolate immigrant workers from the local public, the immigrant workers will be more vulnerable against the exploitation of employers because they are not protected by the local workers.

    AlfaT8 wrote:Another way is through Subverting Russian Culture and Morals.

    We already know this one, simply put, it's the rise of a Russian Proggressivism (Utopian Cultural Socialism).

    Luckily, the Russian Orthodoxy is still very strong in Russia as well as Patriotism still being strong as well.

    Liberalism is actually the result of English capitalism, when the bourgeoise-aristocrat tried to undermine state power. Liberalism means central government cannot interfere into the business of private capitalists, the capitalists have absolute freedom on their wealth, including freedom of exploiting wealthless workers who have little freedom because they have no wealth.

    Capitalists also want to weakens family bonds and other social bonds, so that the workers have no bond but the bond to offices and factories where capitalists hire them. That explains the rise of individualism.

    A great deal of moral rules and ethical values are class-bond and related to class interests.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:03 pm

    There are rumblings of a Maidan in Russia to "unseat Putin". Here are some considerations for such events:

    1) One person, one vote means that no street mob gets to act as the de facto proxy for all the people not clogging the
    streets or squares. It does not matter if 1 million (exaggerated) malcontents prance around with placards denouncing
    Putin in English. These clowns do not get to cast an additional 70 to 100 votes.

    2) It is obvious that any street mob represents only a part of the views of the electorate and not the full spectrum.
    For every anti-Putin useful rent-a-crowd idiot there are dozens who do not share the same opinion and in fact
    share an opposing opinion. The propaganda shtick of NATO to recognize the opinions of this tiny rent-a-crowd minority
    is to directly violate the democratic rights of the vast majority.

    3) NATO propagandists and their narratives are not God's word. Even if they are partly right (and they are not),
    democracy implies the choice of the electorate. If voters can be hoodwinked in Russia, they sure as Hell can
    be hoodwinked in the precious NATO west. There is nothing genetic that makes westerners immune to hoodwinking. In
    fact, it is apparent that NATO citizens are brainwashed 24/7/365 with anti-Russian hate propaganda. NATO is the
    last outfit that should be deciding on the legitimacy of Russian votes. By the mere fact that it supports a fringe
    opposition, it exposes its anti-Russian bias. If NATO had respect for Russian democracy, it would abide by the
    choice of the Russian majority.

    4) NATO propaganda notwithstanding, Russian voters have way more access to anti-"regime" viewpoints and information than
    NATO citizens. I can vouch for this personally. In Russia, people can read mainstream newspapers and watch TV news that
    is openly pro-NATO and anti-Putin. That you can find dissenting voices in the fringe internet media in the west does
    not make things equal. The NATO MSM is monochrome pro-NATO and rabidly anti-Russian. So Russian voters are vastly
    more informed than western voters. By voting for Putin, they make the right choice. NATO's ambitions do not get to
    preempt the choice of Russian voters. The notion that Russian must vote for approved pro-western clowns like Navalny
    is grotesque dictatorial abuse that has nothing in common with democracy.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:56 pm

    Well, Sobol isn't gonna be able to run now in Moscow Duma because she broke rules in the votes needed for her to be able to even be a candidate. She apparently had votes from dead people, votes from people of other regions who don't have the right to vote in the Moscow Duma elections, and people from other countries (Ukraine). So because of such violations, she was booted from running. Of course a protest ensued by Navalny against the commission but only a hundred or so showed up. Was really pathetic to say the least.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 am

    https://antimaidan.ru/news/18490

    So protest yesterday had something around 12,000 people showed up. Of course opposition and fake news Twitter claim 22,000. Now we don't know exactly if these are supporters of these dolts overall or if they were bussed in or what (still pathetic turnout for a city of 13M). But anyway, the commission stated they will not adhear to blackmail and will uphold the law because they have proof of the libtards opposition of falsifying signatures which is a criminal offense.

    So Navalny is demanding people to continue to protest till their people get to run in elections (even though they were caught red handed and did something illegal, which means is anti democratic if they demand to break the law so they can still partake in elections). Anyway, since majority of the other protests were small this one indicates (since sanctioned) it was all opposition that partook (communists, etc).

    Anyway, this may actually force Russian authorities hands to act and actually dismantle Navalny.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:17 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:https://antimaidan.ru/news/18490

    So protest yesterday had something around 12,000 people showed up. Of course opposition and fake news Twitter claim 22,000.  Now we don't know exactly if these are supporters of these dolts overall or if they were bussed in or what (still pathetic turnout for a city of 13M).  But anyway, the commission stated they will not adhear to blackmail and will uphold the law because they have proof of the libtards opposition of falsifying signatures which is a criminal offense.

    So Navalny is demanding people to continue to protest till their people get to run in elections (even though they were caught red handed and did something illegal, which means is anti democratic if they demand to break the law so they can still partake in elections).  Anyway, since majority of the other protests were small this one indicates (since sanctioned) it was all opposition that partook (communists, etc).  

    Anyway, this may actually force Russian authorities hands to act and actually dismantle Navalny.

    With such pathetic "political action", Navalny is a useful idiot for Russia. He makes the non-systemic opposition a joke or at least makes this feature more apparent.

    What needs to happen is for Russian political talk shows and commentators to highlight the fact that street mobs cannot trump the ballot box. If Russia is to be
    a democracy, then demonstrators cannot be considered proxies for faceless millions of voters. And demonstrators need to abide by the law. Any random street
    theater needs to have prison time applied. That will not make martyrs of the revolution, it will shut down all the kiddies and geriatrics and yuppies who think they
    can be rent-a-crowds without any consequence. Russia is making a serious mistake by slapping them on the wrist when they break the law.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:26 pm

    The true problem is the ones funding such mess. Catching the pawn may make them silence for a while, but the masterminds will soon brainwash other people to turn them into other pawns.

    It is clear that clowns like Navalny cannot make a name without somebody funding him. The problem is, which kind of social power is benefited from Navalny. Inside and outside Russia, who want to use Navalny for what benefit. And how Russian people deal with these masterminds.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:13 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:The true problem is the ones funding such mess. Catching the pawn may make them silence for a while, but the masterminds will soon brainwash other people to turn them into other pawns.

    It is clear that clowns like Navalny cannot make a name without somebody funding him. The problem is, which kind of social power is benefited from Navalny. Inside and outside Russia, who want to use Navalny for what benefit. And how Russian people deal with these masterminds.

    There were tangible results from the listing of many NGOs as foreign agents a few years ago. Many of them closed up shop, which demonstrated that they
    were regime-change fronts and not honest NGOs. Now NATO tries to find other ways to fund Navalny and assorted other parasites. This should be treated
    as mafia or organized crime activity. If these "heroes of democracy" cannot survive without NATO money, they have no business being in Russia in the first
    place. Democracy means support from the Russian people and not hostile foreign powers. A rather obvious fact that many saps fail to grasp.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:30 pm

    Apparently he pays a lot of his stuff in Bitcoin.

    So there is a place to start looking.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Apparently he pays a lot of his stuff in Bitcoin.

    So there is a place to start looking.

    I suspect that BitCoin is a western intelligence agency operation. It allows payments in non-official currencies and pretty much every
    internet maggot I am aware of who tries to extort money demands BitCoin. It is basically a dirty money pool with anonimity benefits.

    Russia should be "regressive" and ban this crap. Gifts of foreign market instruments should be illegal in Russia.
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    Post  calripson on Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:15 pm

    First, having studied bitcoin it is clear that it was not developed by some unknown Japanese guy.

    Secondly, the strategy of targeting local Moscow elections is an intelligent one. There is a flaw in the Russian electoral process that allows multiple candidates to dilute the vote and to allow an opposition backed candidate to make it to the second round. There are sufficient populations of "liberals" in parts of Moscow and Saint Petersburg to elect those candidates. Once in office, the can grandstand for media attention and cause trouble. As Lenin noted, it's the capital that counts in a revolution. Nobody cares what is happening in the hinterlands.

    There are three possible solutions to this problem:

    1. Gerrymandering - districts must be drawn to dilute the liberal vote as much as possible
    2. Military bases (were the vote is overwhelmingly pro-government) can be created and included in such a way to allow those personnel to vote in liberal districts
    3. The current system of dozens of candidates progressing until one first passes 50% must be changed

    The fourth option is to create controlled opposition liberal parties but my feeling is the Navalny people are too smart for this

    Disallowing candidates is a short term solution that feeds into the propaganda loop of a authoritarian government that does not allow dissent and which creates over time more liberal supporters.

    In the U.S. system they have no trouble marginalizing threatening candidates (with the exception of the bombastic Trump) like Ron Paul. In Trump's case they had to act to triangulate him after the fact with the whole Russia-gate nonsense. Trump was unique in his wealth and celebrity status.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:49 am

    Yes, that's the major problem, the system allows to dillute the votes by flooding it with candidates.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:13 pm

    Democracy+Universal Suffrage is terrible.
    Eventually the voters will figure out they could have it all by voting for politicians who promise more Welfare.
    Or the politicians will figure out they could just open the border and import voters to put them in power.

    This is why the "Privilege" to vote must be restricted, to only those that contribute.

    Russia is gonna face this problem eventually.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:33 pm

    calripson wrote:First, having studied bitcoin it is clear that it was not developed by some unknown Japanese guy.

    Secondly, the strategy of targeting local Moscow elections is an intelligent one. There is a flaw in the Russian electoral process that allows multiple candidates to dilute the vote and to allow an opposition backed candidate to make it to the second round. There are sufficient populations of "liberals" in parts of Moscow and Saint Petersburg to elect those candidates. Once in office, the can grandstand for media attention and cause trouble. As Lenin noted, it's the capital that counts in a revolution. Nobody cares what is happening in the hinterlands.

    There are three possible solutions to this problem:

    1. Gerrymandering - districts must be drawn to dilute the liberal vote as much as possible
    2. Military bases (were the vote is overwhelmingly pro-government) can be created and included in such a way to allow those personnel to vote in liberal districts
    3. The current system of dozens of candidates progressing until one first passes 50% must be changed

    The fourth option is to create controlled opposition liberal parties but my feeling is the Navalny people are too smart for this

    Disallowing candidates is a short term solution that feeds into the propaganda loop of a authoritarian government that does not allow dissent and which creates over time more liberal supporters.

    In the U.S. system they have no trouble marginalizing threatening candidates (with the exception of the bombastic Trump) like Ron Paul. In Trump's case they had to act to triangulate him after the fact with the whole Russia-gate nonsense. Trump was unique in his wealth and celebrity status.

    Excellent points. The first past the post system is a ridiculous joke. Once again, Russia imports western "ideas" but has no
    f*cking clue what they mean. We have this UK style system in Canada and I hate it. It means that candidates with from parties
    with low popular support can win if there is a split of the vote among several candidates from the same end of the political
    spectrum. I believe in a mixed proportional representation system where legislative seats are assigned by the total vote plus
    party lists. This would terminate all fringe elements from winning anything.

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    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:11 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:This is why the "Privilege" to vote must be restricted, to only those that contribute..

    Then workers and farmers must be the ones who can vote because they are the real contributors, not the self-proclaimed "intelligentsia" who pay no respect to the ones who actually work provide necessary stuffs for the society.

    And as you can see actually working people make the bulk of a nation, the majority of the population are real contributors and in class society, these contributor mostly belongs to the lower class, the oppressed class, not the self-proclaimed "noble".

    As far as my experience tell me, clowns like Navalny actually attract these kinds of "intelligentsia" who thought that they belongs to superior race than common working people and started to demand more than what they really contribute.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:51 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Democracy+Universal Suffrage is terrible.
    Eventually the voters will figure out they could have it all by voting for politicians who promise more Welfare.
    Or the politicians will figure out they could just open the border and import voters to put them in power.
    That is exactly the plan of the globalist centre left coalition (that stopped being the worker's party decades ago) in Italy.

    This is why the "Privilege" to vote must be restricted, to only those that contribute.

    Russia is gonna face this problem eventually.
    It's not easy to find a good compromise about it, and the introduction of welfare has been a positive fact. The problem is when something given to help the citizen is abused, and when it is used from criminal politicians just to get more votes from people without thinking about the consequences.

    In some places welfare and benefits have been used to "dumb down" the population and make them sort of slaves. In addition it is a disincentive to honest work, when unemployment "benefits", including loadging and money are given almost without control and without time limit. In some cases (e.g. in England) people prefer stay at home and do nothing, than work for a minimum wage, because they can achieve the same or a better lifestyle doing nothing.

    In addition giving the same welfare to people that are just new to a country and never worked and paid taxes there is wrong and creates a lot of social unrest. In Switzerland a non citizen coming to work has unemployment protection only after obtaining permanent resident status, that means at least 5 years of work and contribution inside the swiss federation.

    Unfortunately in many parts of the world we lost the understanding of the importance of personal responsibilities, and don't understand anymore than nothing is given for free, but there is always a price associated, even if we don't see it.

    "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (TANSTAAFL).

    In addition, the new left equalized really important welfare conquests (paid sick days, a decent number of paid vacations per year, contributions for children, parental leave and employment protection in the first couple of months to help people get on their feet and land a new job,etc) with other kind of "benefits" that are detrimental to the state and the population in the long run.

    Helping honest workers and taxpayers with partial tax exemption for each of their children is one thing, and it s of extreme importance.
    Maintaining indefinitely people that do not want to work, but can exercise the same political rights is simply wrong.

    No citizen should receive money and welfare from the state without working and paying taxes first, unless they have a temporary injury or a permanent condition that prevent them from working or from having a normal life.

    Even in that case, there should be a limit on the amount of time they could be receiving money without working before something like a temporary restriction in voting right is applied, to avoid exploiting the system.

    (Of course there would be exceptions, e.g retired citizens that worked and paid taxes their all life should maintain voting right for the rest of their life or at least until they are in full possession of their own mental faculties)."

    Probably is also wrong that every citizen acquires the right of voting when he or she turns 18 without any other prerogatives. Maybe they should first work smd pay taxes for three years and then pass a citizenship test (similar to those for foreigners who wants to acquire the citizenship by naturalization).
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:02 pm

    @Rodion: my opinion is that these problem you address cannot be solved when Western ruling class still receives enough profits and are still able to keep enough citizens under control so that risk of an uprising is insignificant.

    The Western ruling class only care about their ruling position and their ability to extract profit from the society. Which means, hiring immigrant workers and moving "jobs" to other countries with cheaper labor price is acceptable even in the expense of increasing unemployment at the homeland.

    We so far only criticized lazy unemployed people as parasites. But we haven't move to this questions: why the "job providers" hire cheap labors in other countries, why "job providers" mistreat and exploit immigrant workers instead of giving these jobs to the local unemployed people ?

    And why don't these unemployed people stand up and demand that they would like to work in these job AND receive good payment so that immigrant workers and foreign labour forces will no longer be exploited and mistreated by Western "job providers" ?

    What I means is, we usually put the blame on unemployed people, but we haven't ask the question, why the system generates such a phenomenon and why the system managers i.e. the ruling class let that happen ?

    And actually, Western powers already carry out a number of, quite barbaric, policies to force welfare receivers to work. We already heard about the one-Euro-job. We already heard about a certain 80 yrs old German lady have to work to earn her welfare. Even the most uncivilized country does not dare to mistreat such an old lady, but these kinds of mistreatment is normal in "civilized" West. No surprise when Western people tends to be mind broken.

    (edit: replace "unless" with "when")


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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