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    Russian Economy General News: #9

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 29, 2018 3:34 pm

    That could work.

    Problem is, most businessmen in Russia cannot see beyond their own two feet. And this may be due to piss poor management skills from years back. I guess real fix is SME's tbh.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  ZoA on Tue May 29, 2018 4:22 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    ZoA wrote:
    As for general economic polices first 3 urgent moves should be decommodification of all credit, strict capital control regime, abolition or VAT and introduction of progressive income tax applied both on income and capital gains equally. But I doubt you have any idea what any of that means.



    My question however remains unanswered.  Examples of countries that followed your recipe for economic growth with positive results?  can you name only 3 of them? Thanks in advance.

    At different points in time China, USA (did not decommodify banking but had tight regulation of it), Japan, S Korea so on.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 5:38 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    ZoA wrote:
    As for general economic polices first 3 urgent moves should be decommodification of all credit, strict capital control regime, abolition or VAT and introduction of progressive income tax applied both on income and capital gains equally. But I doubt you have any idea what any of that means.



    My question however remains unanswered.  Examples of countries that followed your recipe for economic growth with positive results?  can you name only 3 of them? Thanks in advance.

    At different points in time China, USA (did not decommodify banking but had tight regulation of it), Japan, S Korea so on.

    Thanks.

    China did recently capital restrictions  but were already superpower in economy. Decommodification in capitalist communist China?! ahyesh till 2020 most of population shall have access to it. Ooops but then Chinas GDP will be bigger then US on 30%.

    US had always inflow of capitals lend lease, banana republics, dismantling us Soviet block...) . If needed they confiscated all gold on undervalued price then price gone up Smile US did things in 30s when many Americans were hungry . Now? ekhm not really.


    Japan and Korea are under occupation and military spending are not concerned also no ideological war as against them form west. Nobody would buy Russian TV in US dont you think? And I didnt know they switched to communism aka decoomodification.



    But ok my point is: Russia has specific reality now. Russia is actually at war. Putin can either go revolution / martial law, risking civil war. Or try a soft way to people will be convinced more less that this is the way they want to go. Could he have done it better? perhaps. Personally I am pissed on civil code that is so lenient on criminals pro western decedents/oligarchs. AFAIK Putin has chosen slow way to change anything. I hope his choices of people in govt now will make difference. Remember there is an army of 90's civil servants who do little and steal a lot. You cannot do without 37' them at one shot. But you can make net to catch them tighter and tighter. Some will stop just because they 'll see this event coming.


    I might have incorrectly understood his program but:  development of infrastructure (is always good) , education and hi tech, legal instruments to become rich iegally, money sources withing country (investment, pension funds) , health aervices, demographics.


    I am still convinced that sooner or later Russians will understand they need immigration and strong mechanism to integrate newcomers. Unless magically Russian families will start to have 4+ kids average. Inviting students to study in Russia andallowe them to stay and work can be a great start.


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 5:55 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:That could work.

    Problem is, most businessmen in Russia cannot see beyond their own two feet. And this may be due to piss poor management skills from years back. I guess real fix is SME's tbh.

    Oligarchs? they know a shit about technology, only how to steal post soviet property. New gen like KAspersky, Yandex. Yota? In China Alibaba, Tencent or Baidu? they know I'd say very well.

    IMHO the best way is first stage: consolidation fo all remaining hi tech into state corporations, investing in them heavily and put on top people who really know stuff (like Pogosyan, Chermezov) same time let SME grow with targeted financing, legal infrastructure and help from large (state) corps with orders secured to Russian SMEs.

    After couple of years you let Russian funds / owner to buy our some of corporate assets of privatize with restriction for foreign capital. Thsi might work too.

    Wait wait weren't they all 3 Putins henchmen?

    Vice Premiers Akimov, Mutko and Chuichenko entered the Supervisory Board of Vnesheconombank

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/ekonomika/5245077



    and now how nicely he sings? Smile

    Shuvalov: VEB should finance priority projects



    The new head of Vnesheconombank also noted that VEB's capitalization is being discussed with the head of the Ministry of Finance Anton Siluanov
    GORKI, May 29. / TASS /. VEB should finance priority projects, not replacing the commercial activities of other banks, including Sberbank and VTB
    . This was told by the new head of Vnesheconombank, former First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov, following the results of the meeting of the Bank's Supervisory Board in an updated format.


    Vnesheconombank. Dossier
    "The task for Vnesheconombank is to become a real development institution with strong expertise, including investment expertise, to provide liquidity for projects, to learn to work so that commercial banks, including Sberbank and VTB, do not substitute their lending activities," - said Shuvalov.

    VEB chairman added that the state corporation should provide loans on other terms than commercial banks to implement complex priority projects in Russia. To do this, the bank will, according to Shuvalov, follow a similar pattern, according to which the development banks in other states work. The head of VEB also said that a loan agreement has already been prepared to provide the bank with liquidity from foreign banks, including from the Development Bank of China.

    Speaking about the results of the meeting of the Supervisory Board, Shuvalov noted that it was decided to approve of the activities of the previous management of Vnesheconombank for the period from February 2016 to the present.

    "The team of Sergei Nikolayevich Gorkov started to work at a difficult time, in difficult conditions - bad loans were accumulated and the task was to solve all problems as quickly as possible so that the bank was not in a default state, so that the bank was perceived by creditors as a reliable partner, work in order to deal with problem assets to prepare the site for further development and transformation of the bank into a development institution for the Russian Federation, "Shuvalov said.

    In addition to the activities of the bank for the period, according to the head of VEB, the Supervisory Board today discussed how the bank was engaged in Olympic facilities, what he was doing on other complex projects, including on a subsidiary bank in Ukraine. Following the discussion, the members of the supervisory board came to the conclusion that the actions of the Gorkov team were professional.

    Shuvalov stressed that the main task of Vnesheconombank will be the implementation of the May decree of the Russian president, and this task is complex, ambitious, but feasible.

    Pre-capitalization
    VEB's pre-capitalization is discussed with the first deputy prime minister of Russia, the head of the Ministry of Finance Anton Siluanov, the ministry should determine the volume, Shuvalov said.

    "We are discussing this issue with the Minister of Finance - the first deputy prime minister, and the question is that we need to learn how to provide various products - this is not just lending. It should be lending on new terms, but to provide the loan, we need liquidity. have several components - it's borrowed funds and capital of the bank ... Now the Ministry of Finance will have to go through with us together this way of calculating the extent to which it is necessary to capitalize, "said Shuvalov, answering the question , in what volume of VEB capitalization is required.

    Earlier, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev at the first meeting of the supervisory board of VEB in an updated format said that in the future it is necessary to provide for the additionalization of the state corporation. Prior to this, on May 24, the need for capitalization of the state corporation was declared by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    Vnesheconombank
    The Bank for Development and Foreign Economic Affairs (Vnesheconombank, VEB) is a state development corporation, its main activity is the financing of large investment projects. Has no banking license. The chairman of the supervisory board of Vnesheconombank is Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev. By January 1, 2018, VEB was involved in financing 198 investment projects worth 4.9 trillion rubles, of which VEB's share was 2.3 trillion rubles.


    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/ekonomika/5245313
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 29, 2018 6:09 pm

    Interest point there Gunship, but i think Russia already has a solution, the Draft.
    The biggest mistake the West and conservatives in general make is that the one responsible for making children and family, is the man, they have a tendency to put all responsibility on the man.
    For example the herbivore men of Japan.

    But the reality is, the one who decides that the children will be born and a family will be made is the women.
    Ergo, you need to put pressure on the women to have children.

    And here we have the Draft as a very good solution for this, right now the Russian Draft is only meant for men, but if it were meant for women as well and extended from 1 to 2 years, then you will without a doubt see Russian birth rates skyrocket.

    Yes, i know, the Russian are currently trying to move away from the Draft, but so long as Nato exist, i doubt that it will complete disappear.
    Might as well do something useful with it.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 6:20 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Interest point there Gunship, but i think Russia already has a solution, the Draft.
    The biggest mistake the West and conservatives in general make is that the one responsible for making children and family, is the man, they have a tendency to put all responsibility on the man.
    For example the herbivore men of Japan.

    But the reality is, the one who decides that the children will be born and a family will be made is the women.
    Ergo, you need to put pressure on the women to have children.

    And here we have the Draft as a very good solution for this, right now the Russian Draft is only meant for men, but if it were meant for women as well and extended from 1 to 2 years, then you will without a doubt see Russian birth rates skyrocket.

    Yes, i know, the Russian are currently trying to move away from the Draft, but so long as Nato exist, i doubt that it will complete disappear.
    Might as well do something useful with it.

    I presume you refer to demographics challenge? tome this is not only army bu t foremost economy. Once in Russian press I saw discussion. Consensus among parties was 300-500 mlns population. Of coruse without SOviet Union II unlikely to happen. But healthy level of people educated, young is always a goo d idea.


    I'm not sure abut pressure on women. It is enough to positively show that having kids it both demanding and rewarding. And in case of undecided - you get less pension if you dont have kids Smile
    Most of women that I know have 3 kids. Many men didn want to ... But on they are not in 18-25 range Smile


    As for army - well 1 mln is fine aslogn as automation is widespread. You can loose thousands of robots and after couple of weeks replace with ungraded models...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 29, 2018 6:41 pm

    Without quoting; big businesses in Russia have drastically increased buying from SMEs in recent years.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Without quoting; big businesses in Russia have drastically increased buying from SMEs in recent years.

    I can see here invisible hand of Putin free market Razz Razz Razz


    Starts to be interesting Smile

    Klimenko said a possible limitation of Microsoft's work in Russia



    Adviser to the president on the Internet Herman Klimenko admitted that in response to the restrictions imposed by the US authorities on Kaspersky Lab, an American company Microsoft can "be asked to leave" Russia
    {}
    It is clear that in today's divided world, when Kaspersky was asked to leave America, and we likely to asked Microsoft to leave, it will be amusing to observe this, "Klimenko said, summoning the replicas from the audience.

    Подробнее на РБК:
    https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/29/05/2018/5b0d5c329a79473e1cf33828

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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  ZoA on Tue May 29, 2018 8:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote: ...


    You clearly have not the foggiest idea what you are talking abut. What you are doing is equivalent of asking what makes a car run, when you get an answer the line of engine, transmission, wheels, you produce a image of a crushed car that apparently had engine, transmission and wheels and still ended up crushing. You therefore conclude car only needs brakes, and rest of it is is just asking for disaster to happen.

    You don understand nothing of economics, and hardly anything of history either. I think you lack basic prerequisite knowledge to even understand what is being told to you. Sorry to sound so harsh and disrespectful but I feel like I'm explaining integral calculus to 7 year old that bearly understands addition and subtraction.  Sad
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 11:18 pm

    ...


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 11:45 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 29, 2018 11:19 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote: ...


    You clearly have not the foggiest idea what you are talking abut. What you are doing is equivalent of asking what makes a car run, when you get an answer the line of engine, transmission, wheels, you produce a image of a crushed car that apparently had engine, transmission and wheels and still ended up crushing. You therefore conclude car only needs brakes, and rest of it is is just asking for disaster to happen.

    You don understand nothing of economics, and hardly anything of history either. I think you lack basic prerequisite knowledge to even understand what is being told to you. Sorry to sound so harsh and disrespectful but I feel like I'm explaining integral calculus to 7 year old that bearly understands addition and subtraction.  Sad

    You're one to talk..........
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 29, 2018 11:44 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    You're one to talk..........

    Hmm perhaps he can tell us abut his credentials? Perhaps he is student of Stiglitz? or at this level? anyway nobody uses his recommendations perhaps he can go to Putin and tell during prime line?
    The funny part of his aggressiveness is tha he seem to be so unsure about his theory that takes it personally. Not able to discuss.

    I wonder once he finishes his education and starts working will he behave same way at work place? will he be similar in discussion when defending his thesis/ final project?



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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 29, 2018 11:51 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:I presume you refer to demographics challenge? tome this is not only army bu t foremost economy. Once in Russian press I saw discussion. Consensus among parties was 300-500 mlns population. Of coruse without SOviet Union II unlikely to happen. But healthy level of people educated, young is always a goo d idea.


    I'm  not sure abut pressure on women. It is enough to positively show that having kids it both demanding  and rewarding. And in case of undecided -  you get less pension if you dont have kids Smile
    Most of women that I know have  3 kids. Many men didn want to ...   But on they are not in 18-25 range Smile


    As for army - well 1 mln is fine aslogn as automation is widespread. You can loose thousands of robots and after couple of weeks replace with ungraded models...

    300mill is doable, given enough time and above all putting pressure on the women.

    Yes, here is the other mistake many in the West and even in the East make, they throw money at the issue thinking it'll resolve it.
    We can see the affects of this in the U.S with the amount of Fatherless homes, if you just give her money then she will have no need for the man.
    Although the Russians seem smart by going for increased pension instead of simply giving child support money, and getting her hooked on State benefits.

    I am only focusing on demographics here, not the Military, just using the Draft to shift Demographics, increase it back to 2yrs and make the women take it, and you will without a doubt see an increase in Birth rates.
    Since both parties will now do what they can to avoid the Draft, although i would also put back that loophole for men who have a child younger than 3 years.
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 12:43 am

    AlfaT8 wrote: 300mill is doable, given enough time and above all putting pressure on the women.

    I have kids and trust me both parties must want to have them :-) As for 300mil with own growth? With Niger rates like 50 kids per 1000 perhaps 50-80 years. With Russian current birth rate sunlikely ever. /even if it grows by 50% to 18/1000 still way to little to grow withing 100 years. IMHO controlled immigration has to play role here.



    Yes, here is the other mistake many in the West and even in the East make, they throw money at the issue thinking it'll resolve it.

    I wish I saved this link but once I've read Russian demographer (? not sure is this is correct name of profession) scientist about history and options for increasing fertility. He said there is a group of people who always will have kids no matter what. Ther is a group of people who dont any kids no matter what but most of people can have depending circumstances.


    As for money imagine: if you dont make flexible working hours, let women who decided to have kids to work too (if whey want to ) - build kindergartens, schools with cafeterias, extend time kids can stay and enjoy stay, make sure there si both business culture /legal regulations to let women take a day off when kid is sick... moeny alone wont help that much.

    Also pension insurance should depend on number of kids (ideally staying in your country :-) - more kids more pension or much less pension insurance to be paid to fund.



    We can see the affects of this in the U.S with the amount of Fatherless homes, if you just give her money then she will have no need for the man.
    Although the Russians seem smart by going for increased pension instead of simply giving child support money, and getting her hooked on State benefits.

    Here to me is problem - nto really money but mix of egoism and way of life. You can influence this by means of education or better massive and long PR campaign in media/movies programs about being a parent is good, cool an trendy :-) but it takes years though...if not generations. And same time all liberal media are by default against...



    I am only focusing on demographics here, not the Military, just using the Draft to shift Demographics, increase it back to 2yrs and make the women take it, and you will without a doubt see an increase in Birth rates.Since both parties will now do what they can to avoid the Draft, although i would also put back that loophole for men who have a child younger than 3 years.

    I wouldn t bet on conscription as a problem. In Israel every Jewish citizen 18+ goes to 2 years 8 months (men) or 2 years (women) to army.
    after wiki:
    Jews and others: 20.5 births/1,000 population
    Russia ~11,6 /1000

    I would say : state support (both money and fiscal benefits) + mindset.


    BTW Not sure about current status but wasn't that situations improved last years in Russia with draftees? there is no massive dodging of conscription? Anyway now all army will be contract basis or I am wrong?



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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 30, 2018 4:02 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote: 300mill is doable, given enough time and above all putting pressure on the women.

    I have kids and trust me both parties must want to have them :-) As for 300mil with own growth? With Niger rates like 50 kids per 1000 perhaps 50-80 years. With Russian current birth rate sunlikely ever. /even if it grows by 50% to 18/1000 still way to little to grow withing 100 years. IMHO controlled immigration has to play role here.

    No doubt strict migration control is needed, only those dumb-ass western Europeans are retarded enough to get themselves replaced, F'ing fools.

    Yes, here is the other mistake many in the West and even in the East make, they throw money at the issue thinking it'll resolve it.

    I wish I saved this link but once I've read Russian demographer (? not sure is this is correct name of profession) scientist about history and options for increasing fertility.  He said there is a group of people who always will have kids no matter what. Ther is a group of people who dont any kids no matter what but most of people can have depending  circumstances.

    Interesting outlook from him, no doubt he's talking about the non-whites.

    As for money imagine: if you dont make flexible working hours, let women who decided to have kids to work too (if whey want to ) - build kindergartens, schools with cafeterias,  extend time kids can stay and enjoy stay, make sure there si both business culture /legal regulations to let women take a day off when kid is sick... moeny alone wont help that much.

    Also pension insurance should depend on number of kids (ideally staying in your country :-) - more kids more pension or much less pension insurance to be paid to fund.

    All well and good, so long as the women remain somewhat dependent on a man, and the State doesn't replace the man or reward fatherlessness with "child support" money, then things should work out.

    The pension thing is pretty good it's an incentive that doesn't replace the man.

    We can see the affects of this in the U.S with the amount of Fatherless homes, if you just give her money then she will have no need for the man.
    Although the Russians seem smart by going for increased pension instead of simply giving child support money, and getting her hooked on State benefits.

    Here to me is problem - nto really money but mix of egoism and way of life. You can influence this by means of education or better massive and long PR campaign in media/movies programs about being a parent is good, cool an trendy :-)  but it takes years though...if not generations. And same time all liberal media are by default against...

    Too long and expensive and i think russia has already gone that route, what you need is to put pressure on the women.
    Heck, the whole reason the Niggers have 50 kids, is because the women are trying to survive, and her best survival strategy is to offer her sex and fertility in exchange for protection.

    I am only focusing on demographics here, not the Military, just using the Draft to shift Demographics, increase it back to 2yrs and make the women take it, and you will without a doubt see an increase in Birth rates.Since both parties will now do what they can to avoid the Draft, although i would also put back that loophole for men who have a child younger than 3 years.

    I wouldn t bet on conscription as a problem. In Israel every Jewish citizen 18+ goes to 2 years 8 months (men) or 2 years (women) to army.
    after wiki:
    Jews and others: 20.5 births/1,000 population
    Russia ~11,6 /1000

    I would say : state support (both money and fiscal benefits) + mindset.

    I'll be frank, it won't work.
    If you put the women in too comfortable an environment, she will see no need to have children, Japan and Korea are good examples of this, some also call it the Belgium model.
    In short, this environment will create a mindset that she can just wait for Mr. Right, who may or may not even exist, this will lower birth rates rather than raise it.
    To say nothing of the economic problems that it'll create.

    You need to also put pressure on them, that's how the Nigger production works, although to a more extreme extent.

    BTW Not sure about current status but wasn't that situations improved last years in Russia with draftees? there is  no massive dodging of conscription? Anyway now all army will be contract basis or I am wrong?

    The women are not being drafted, unless wiki is lying to me.
    That's why you need to put those loopholes back, to pressure both parties, into the direction you need them to go.

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  Austin on Wed May 30, 2018 6:38 am

    Russians will save 5.2 trillion rubles in 2018

    https://iz.ru/748899/inna-grigoreva/rossiiane-nakopiat-52-trln-rublei-v-2018-godu
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 12:41 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:No doubt strict migration control is needed, only those dumb-ass western Europeans are retarded enough to get themselves replaced, F'ing fools.

    Bertolt Brecht once wrote poem:

    That the People had frivolously
    Thrown away the Government's Confidence
    And that they could only regain it
    Through Redoubled Work. But wouldn't it be
    Simpler if the Government
    Simply dissolved the People
    And elected another?


    That actually what is happening in Europe. It is not European peoples but their govts (rather ruling Soros type elites) . . Do you really think that Germans do want millions for non integrable immigrants? this is clear behind-scene-sting-pulling. Media are silent & brain washing immigrants are good, islamization is good. about crimes police is not registering anything - this is not conspiracy theory this is conspiracy.




    I wish I saved this link but once I've read Russian demographer (? not sure is this is correct name of profession) scientist about history and options for increasing fertility.  He said there is a group of people who always will have kids no matter what. There is a group of people who dont any kids no matter what but most of people can have depending  circumstances.

    Interesting outlook from him, no doubt he's talking about the non-whites.
    [/quote]
     
    Hmm he was talking about Russians  - oK there is  drink Black-Russian but I presume unrelated  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing BTW I have cousins in small town in Poland and neighboring village . 4 families. No of kids 4, 3,3 ,2 . Whites. Well you really seem to be very bitter about whites having kids. Most of them are fairly comfortable having them to my experience.

    Look at fertility rates in EU - highers France, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark and UK. In every of them no of immigrants is way to low ot justify those numbers.  And what is common in all that cases:  multi dimensional support to mothers/families with kids.






    The pension thing is pretty good it's an incentive that doesn't replace the man.

    +1000 as for complete families Women dont have to dependent financially on men to me. Both women and men need to be convinced they want to create family. The best family is when you want  to be together not to stay because of money...
    Of course Soros media official western propaganda will be against in all its dirty ways.






    We can see the affects of this in the U.S with the amount of Fatherless homes, if you just give her money then she will have no need for the man.
    Although the Russians seem smart by going for increased pension instead of simply giving child support money, and getting her hooked on State benefits.

    Here to me is problem - nto really money but mix of egoism and way of life. You can influence this by means of education or better massive and long PR campaign in media/movies programs about being a parent is good, cool an trendy :-)  but it takes years though...if not generations. And same time all liberal media are by default against...

    Too long and expensive and i think russia has already gone that route, what you need is to put pressure on the women.

    the only one I'd say


    Heck, the whole reason the Niggers Nigerien ( citizen of Niger Wink ) have 50 kids, is because the women are trying to survive, and her best survival strategy is to offer her sex and fertility in exchange for protection.
    Let's agree to disagree





    I'll be frank, it won't work.
    If you put the women in too comfortable an environment, she will see no need to have children, Japan and Korea are good examples of this, some also call it the Belgium model.
    In short, this environment will create a mindset that she can just wait for Mr. Right, who may or may not even exist, this will lower birth rates rather than raise it.
    To say nothing of the economic problems that it'll create.


    trust me not all of them are reading Cosmopolitan and listening to feminist lecturers. BTW you have Israel example which is real. Israeli women are not really in danger.





    The women are not being drafted, unless wiki is lying to me.
    That's why you need to put those loopholes back, to pressure both parties, into the direction you need them to go.

    not drafted in Russia, in Israel they are.  In Russia they can go to army or army universities, take part in Yunanya Armia organizations. In II WW lots of women were in army what didnt prevent them to have kids as soon as they could. Thsi is all about mindset and social help.

    Project Canada

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  Project Canada on Wed May 30, 2018 1:52 pm


    since the topic here has touched on demographics, I'd like to share this article I found from RFE, now I know that RFE is a NATO funded Information Propaganda agency but I'd like to know what you people think about what this article suggests as islamic immigrant takeover of Russia's rural areas, if true then this is a disturbing trend that needs to be reversed immediately. Russia needs to invest more efforts for Christianization and Russufication of its non ethnic Russian territories as well as countries of the former Soviet Union. BTW this is a surprisingly lengthly article so I hope you people will have the patience to read it.


    How Muslim Migrants Are Reshaping Russia's Dying Countryside, One Village At A Time
    ROZHDESTVENO, Russia -- Nazim Soliev is confident that he's good for Russia.

    Or more specifically, the 35-year-old native of Tajikistan, the most impoverished of Central Asia's five former Soviet republics, says his presence here, 200 kilometers northwest of Moscow, is good for his adopted homeland.

    "'Better you than the Chinese,' that's what my ex-boss told me," the small-framed Soliev says between double shifts as a stoker at the village school, earning him around $250 a month, nearly twice the average Tajik wage.

    The "you" is a reference to Soliev, who speaks fluent Russian and also routinely quotes ancient Persian thinker Omar Khayyam's poems in Farsi, a linguistic sibling of his mother tongue, and 46 other families whose resettlement from Tajikistan over the past decade almost doubled Rozhdestveno's aging population of about 200.

    Half of the students in Soliev's school are their raven-haired children, and their wives, in long skirts and head scarves, shop for groceries at a store next to the Orthodox church.

    The arrival to urban centers and the countryside of Soliev and millions of other mostly Muslim labor migrants from Central Asia is at the center of what could emerge as Russia's most radical ethnic makeover in centuries.

    And some residents of Rozhdestveno and nearby villages speak caustically of the immigrants and forebodingly of an uncertain future.

    "In 10 years, the village will either disappear or become foreign," says retiree Viktor Yerofoeyevich, declining to give his last name. He is a resident of the neighboring village of Bortnikovo, where a paltry 12 houses have full-time residents.
    ​Polls point to fears among many of Russia's 142 million people of an uncontrolled influx of migrants eager to snatch up jobs and wildly tilt the country's demographics in favor of the newcomers.

    Vyacheslav Postavnin, a former deputy director of Russia's Federal Migration Service who now heads the 21st Century Migration Fund, a Moscow-based think tank, compares it to the storied Mongol invasion of the 13th century that was followed by Islamization and the settling of former nomads in what is now southern Russia.

    "The last bastion is the quick construction of Orthodox churches," Postavnin says of ethnic Russians' mistrust of the cultural and religious implications of immigration, "because the number of adherents of Islam is growing."

    Four-fifths of Russians say the Kremlin "must limit" the flow of migrants, and two-fifths believe migrants should live in "specially assigned areas," according to a survey last year by state-run pollster VTsIOM.

    And more than one in four Russians feels "irritation, dislike, or fear" specifically toward Central Asians, according to a more recent survey by independent pollster Levada.

    Bucking A Trend

    In its recent Revision Of World Urbanization Prospects report, the United Nations predicted that the current decline in Russia's rural population would accelerate in the coming decades, from nearly 37 million now to just 22 million Russians residing in the countryside by the year 2050.

    Stretched along the road between the ancient city of Tver and the Volga River, Rozhdestveno and a cluster of smaller villages around it exemplify the agony of Russia's countryside.

    ​Here, as in many rural areas mired in joblessness since the post-Soviet collapse of collective farms, decimated by low birthrates and migration to big cities, and barely held together by potholed roads, there is a perception that this kind of national heartland is no longer a pillar of Russian identity, prosperity, and tsarist-era expansion from the Baltic to the Pacific.

    The trends have been accompanied by cutbacks in the number of village hospitals, schools, and administrative resources that further encourage locals to flee dwindling villages. Almost 36,000 Russian villages, or one in four, are home to 10 or fewer residents, and 20,000 more have been abandoned altogether, according to the latest Russian census, conducted in 2010.

    Rozhdestveno is lucky to be larger than the nearby villages, but fallow fields covered with birch and pine saplings and poisonous giant hogweed surround it in every direction. The saplings herald the return of dense forests from which these villages were carved out centuries ago.
    While the elderly in the area are forced to make do on meager pensions, many of the younger residents who haven't left for the city subsist on potatoes from backyard gardens and pick mushrooms and berries to supplement their incomes. They sell whatever they can pick to middlemen from Tver or to affluent neighbors -- frequently dacha owners from big cities who only show up in summer.

    "I can sell mushrooms, sell cranberries. How else can I earn money?" says Vladimir, a jobless man from the village of Nesterovo, lisping through missing teeth. Clad in a greasy jacket and standing on a dirt road, he sums up his quarter century since the Soviet collapse.

    "All of our household economy was destroyed, all the animal farms," he says. "Every old lady used to have sheep, cows. Now, no one has any. Even chickens are gone."

    'Not Afraid To Work'

    Almost all of Rozhdestveno's Tajik families hail from Gorno-Badakhshan, an especially poor, mountainous region that accounts for nearly half of Tajikistan's territory. Tajiks were early and eager labor migrants to post-Soviet Russia, and hundreds of thousands now have citizenship there, officials say.

    While it didn't distinguish between Russian nationals and foreigners, the last nationwide census, in 2010, showed fourfold increases in the number of ethnic Tajiks and Kyrgyz in the Russian countryside, although there was a steep decline in the number of ethnic Uzbeks.

    But the census generally excludes temporary labor migrants, according to Yevgeniya Chernina of the Center of Labor Studies at Moscow's Higher School of Economy, of which there are millions, on and off the books.

    The Tajik men around Rozhdestveno -- from teenagers to forty-something men -- are said to be generally eager to accept any employment opportunity that presents itself. They compete with locals in picking mushrooms and berries, and work at a nearby sawmill, on farms and construction sites in Tver, and drive cabs and buses.

    "They're not afraid to work," Mayor Dmitry Kirdanov says. "It's a helpful difference from the native population."
    Immigrants renovated several three-story apartment buildings that stood empty after the demise of the village's collective farm, bought up dilapidating wooden houses, and enrolled three dozen children in school -- doubling the number of students and providing teachers with more work.

    There have been inevitable tensions, but locals say they have generally been tackled before they were allowed to fester.

    The imposing, taciturn leader of Rozhdestveno's Tajik community routinely finds himself thrust into the center of such quarrels.

    Pairavsho, as he is known, manages a storage facility in Tver and arbitrates disputes between Tajiks and locals, a cultural holdover from the common Central Asian practice of tapping the wisdom of elders.

    "If there's a misunderstanding, they come to me, and we sort things out right away," the father of two says on a Sunday evening, as dozens of Tajiks play soccer on the field in front of him.

    Kirdanov cites an example, saying the immigrants' children "brought a specifically [Central] Asian attitude to women" that some locals found objectionable. In that case, he says, a "conference" was convened to prevail upon the immigrants and soon the boys "stopped treating girls rudely."

    'Better Off In The Village'

    Some of the immigrants' personal trajectories fit patterns described by Shukhrat Ganiev, a labor migration expert with the Humanitarian Rights Center, a think tank in the central Uzbek city of Bukhara. He has made two extensive trips across Russia since 2000 to document the emergence of what he calls "Uzbek villages" there.

    Village officials or farmers in northern regions and Siberia frequently allow labor migrants to squat in abandoned houses and help them get work and residency permits, he says, sometimes inducing nearly whole villages to follow.

    "Usually, this is a perennial practice with further integration into the local society," Ganiev says in a reference to migrants who get Russian passports and send their children to Russian-language schools.
    Other migrants are hired as seasonal farmhands, he says, mostly in southern Russian regions with booming, industrialized agriculture, and return home in winter.

    Even more often, Ganiev says, migrants working in big cities move their families to the countryside because of lower rent and food costs and a safer, healthier environment.

    "They're better off in the village," says Rovshan Khushvaktov, a 28-year-old cabbie who arrived four years ago from the central Uzbek city of Bukhara. "It's so hard to keep an eye on children in Moscow."

    His wife and three children live in a small rented house in the village of Khoroshevo, some 180 kilometers southwest of Moscow. He sleeps in his white Hyundai between 18-hour shifts and tries to visit them each week.

    Once they get Russian citizenship, many migrants become an important asset for local politicians.

    In Rozhdestveno, where the overwhelming majority of Tajiks boast red Russian passports, Pairavsho declines to discuss his community's political preferences, saying only that they "take part in every election."

    But the indications are that they vote overwhelmingly for the ruling United Russia party.

    "Through their leaders, we always get a high turnout," Kirdanov says in a reference to influential elders like Pairavsho.

    "All sorts of outside political carpetbaggers tried to use them," he adds, "but now they trust the [Kremlin's] power, and openly say they won't sell their political favors anymore."

    https://www.rferl.org/a/how-muslim-migrants-are-reshaping-russia-s-dying-countryside-one-village-at-a-time/29237540.html
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  ZoA on Wed May 30, 2018 4:10 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    You're one to talk..........

    I did not see you contribute anything meaningful. Vacuous comments from peanut gallery are useless.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  ZoA on Wed May 30, 2018 4:34 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    You're one to talk..........

    Hmm perhaps he can tell us abut his credentials? Perhaps he is student of Stiglitz? or at this level? anyway nobody uses his recommendations perhaps he can go to Putin and tell during prime line?
    The funny part of his aggressiveness is tha he seem to be so unsure about his theory that takes it personally. Not able to discuss.

    I wonder once he finishes his education and starts working will he behave same way at work place? will he be similar in discussion when defending his thesis/ final project?

    You presume too much, as is usual for people that know nothing.

    Assumption of status quo being optimal, as well as blind confidence in wisdom of leaders, is usual for people that have no understanding of how system works. You lack basic comprehension of political economy to understand what consequences any policy might have or why someone might want to pursue it over the alternatives. As you lack such understanding of polices itself  you develop  your reasoning as something in the line of " policy is as is because it is best it can be, because it  would make no sense not to pursue best policy possible".

    While such reasoning is not in itself irrational , in fact it is one of more reasonable ones one could assume if he lacks understanding of system as a whole, it is still erroneous in our case because it is based on two wrong premises. First is that Putin himself is infallible, 2nd is that Putin has only concern of Russian state as consideration during policy forming.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 30, 2018 7:17 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:That actually what is happening in Europe. It is not European peoples but their govts (rather ruling Soros type elites) . . Do you really think that Germans do want millions for non integrable immigrants? this is clear behind-scene-sting-pulling. Media are silent & brain washing immigrants are good, islamization is good. about crimes police is not registering anything - this is not conspiracy theory this is conspiracy.

    True, but they are the ones who elected these fools, so they aren't completely free of guilt

    Hmm he was talking about Russians  - oK there is  drink Black-Russian but I presume unrelated  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing BTW I have cousins in small town in Poland and neighboring village . 4 families. No of kids 4, 3,3 ,2 . Whites. Well you really seem to be very bitter about whites having kids. Most of them are fairly comfortable having them to my experience.

    Look at fertility rates in EU - highers France, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark and UK. In every of them no of immigrants is way to low ot justify those numbers.  And what is common in all that cases:  multi dimensional support to mothers/families with kids.

    Looks like he was wrong then, projections show birth rates collapsing in the near future, but these are projections,so long as Russia doesn't open the borders they should be able to make something work down the road.
    Bitter??
    They are all replacement levels, last i heard.

    The pension thing is pretty good it's an incentive that doesn't replace the man.

    +1000 as for complete families Women dont have to dependent financially on men to me. Both women and men need to be convinced they want to create family. The best family is when you want  to be together not to stay because of money...
    Of course Soros media official western propaganda will be against in all its dirty ways.

    If there is no dependence on men, than there is no need for children, this is what we are seen across the board.
    Yes, and the only way to "convince" them is to create a situation where making kids is necessary.

    Too long and expensive and i think russia has already gone that route, what you need is to put pressure on the women.

    the only one I'd say

    ????

    Heck, the whole reason the Niggers Nigerien ( citizen of Niger Wink ) have 50 kids, is because the women are trying to survive, and her best survival strategy is to offer her sex and fertility in exchange for protection.
    Let's agree to disagree

    Good one, you got me there.
    Ok, but it won't change the fact, although there is also the belief that their patriarchal culture is leading to high birth rates.

    I'll be frank, it won't work.
    If you put the women in too comfortable an environment, she will see no need to have children, Japan and Korea are good examples of this, some also call it the Belgium model.
    In short, this environment will create a mindset that she can just wait for Mr. Right, who may or may not even exist, this will lower birth rates rather than raise it.
    To say nothing of the economic problems that it'll create.

    trust me not all of them are reading Cosmopolitan and listening to feminist lecturers. BTW you have Israel example which is real. Israeli women are not really in danger.

    But they're still getting Drafted, and no doubt the pregnancy loophole is there.
    Actually now that i think about, you could improve child care services, to make it so that she could still be eligible to be drafted after the child is 3yrs old or so, pressuring her to have more kids.

    The women are not being drafted, unless wiki is lying to me.
    That's why you need to put those loopholes back, to pressure both parties, into the direction you need them to go.

    not drafted in Russia, in Israel they are.  In Russia they can go to army or army universities, take part in Yunanya Armia organizations. In II WW lots of women were in army what didnt prevent them to have kids as soon as they could. Thsi is all about mindset and social help.

    They need to be Drafted too, this should create the mindset as well.
    Especially if you want to replicate the Israeli model.
    And replicating the mindset of post-WW2 ain't gonna happen.


    Looks like we've gone way off topic, i wonder if Garry can move tis discussion to the population thread.
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 8:36 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:That actually what is happening in Europe. It is not European peoples but their govts (rather ruling Soros type elites) . . Do you really think that Germans do want millions for non integrable immigrants? this is clear behind-scene-sting-pulling. Media are silent & brain washing immigrants are good, islamization is good. about crimes police is not registering anything - this is not conspiracy theory this is conspiracy.

    True, but they are the ones who elected these fools, so they aren't completely free of guilt

    easiest is to bribe or ridicule (AfG in Germany or Le Pen in France) , then threaten then to discredit and if doesn't work ... then "accident"...(Lepper in Polend)




    Look at fertility rates in EU - highers France, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark and UK. In every of them no of immigrants is way to low ot justify those numbers.  And what is common in all that cases:  multi dimensional support to mothers/families with kids.

    They are all replacement levels, last i heard.

    France is I believe above. Russia is a bit less (1,75) but with right policy can got close to replacement level. This is cool but not enough. That's why clever immigration - and working process of integration with culture , society. In short working Leitkultur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitkultur






    If there is no dependence on men, than there is no need for children, this is what we are seen across the board.
    Yes, and the only way to "convince" them is to create a situation where making kids is necessary.

    we clearly disagree about it. I dont believe that women si the only one who dont want to have kids. There is to me simple the question of mindset.
    Current western "freedom" fighting with tradition, patriotism, religion and at the end family touches same men and women to me. Personally we might not care but statesmen have to think strategies to help people to have more kids.





    Good one, you got me there.
    Ok, but it won't change the fact, although there is also the belief that their patriarchal culture is leading to high birth rates.

    I believe it isnit so much about patriarchal culture but high infant mortality, no social security, family ties, multi generations families. Kids are investment- more kids more help when i get old and weak...
    it is still about so called civilizations' conditioning.



    But they're still getting Drafted, and no doubt the pregnancy loophole is there.
    Actually now that i think about, you could improve child care services, to make it so that she could still be eligible to be drafted after the child is 3yrs old or so, pressuring her to have more kids.

    not sure if you have heard of concept of woman/man wanting kids not as escape from conscription? or material problems?! What a Face What a Face What a Face Imagine some people have kids because they want to
    thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup




    not drafted in Russia, in Israel they are.  In Russia they can go to army or army universities, take part in Yunanya Armia organizations. In II WW lots of women were in army what didnt prevent them to have kids as soon as they could. Thsi is all about mindset and social help.

    They need to be Drafted too, this should create the mindset as well.
    Especially if you want to replicate the Israeli model.
    [/quote]

    not necessarily replicate Israeli but look at its best components why not? Smile
    It looks like a good start of loooong prices of affecting mindsets.
    http://eng.mil.ru/en/structure/forces/navy/media/photo/gallery.htm?id=37687@cmsPhotoGallery

    The other problem is abortion...

    The number of abortions according to Rosstat data in 1990-2017, thousand [12] :

    1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999
    4103.4 3608.4 3436.7 3244,0 3060.2 2766,4 2652.0 2498.7 2346.1 2181.2
    2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
    2138.8 2014.7 1944.5 1864.6 1797.6 1675.7 1582.4 1479.0 1385.6 1292,389
    2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
    1186,108 1124,880 1063,982 1012,399 930.0 [14] 848.0 [14] 836.6 600.0

    [/quote]

    1,900,000 kids born with 600,000 abortions...30% Sad Sad Sad
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Аборты_в_России




    And replicating the mindset of post-WW2 ain't gonna happen.
    no because reality is different and environment too. Everything evolve. Fittest survive you need to stay one Smile




    Looks like we've gone way off topic, i wonder if Garry can move tis discussion to the population thread.
    shhhhhh he is now not here lol1 lol1 lol1 lst stay low lol1 lol1 lol1
    but oki lest move to other threat - or you open one? Smile
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 8:47 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    since the topic here has touched on demographics, I'd like to share this article I found from RFE, now I know that RFE is a NATO funded Information Propaganda agency but I'd like to know what you people think about what this article suggests as islamic immigrant takeover of Russia's rural areas, if true then this is a disturbing trend that needs to be reversed immediately. Russia needs to invest more efforts for Christianization and Russufication of its non ethnic Russian territories as well as countries of the former Soviet Union. BTW this is a surprisingly lengthly article so I hope you people will have the patience to read it.


    Thanks for an interesting read. Just my 2 cents to problem: it is not about re-Christianization. IMHO its enough not to disturb religions to be practiced (excluding sects, especially Us based or satanism (as in Us affraid affraid affraid ), and no fighting Christianity as in west. In Syria or Iraq or Egypt millions of Christians lived for hundreds of years evnethough that there was ismalization pressure no terrorizm took .place. As long as west didnt  start "liberation" and breeding isis "opposition" .

    Let people believe in what they want. I am not afraid about Christianity to disappear :-)  Still Etyopians can come, Vietnamese, Phlipinos, Lations if needed. take them to study in Russia and let them stay work and become Russians?



    well Egypt has ~80 mlns population, perhaps coptic bishop is overestimating but still 12-15 millions Christina s in Egypt ? is more then in France for sure Smile


    Bishop Morcos said that the Egyptian armed forces are undertaken, at their own expense, the current restoration of the churches. (Al Arabiya)
    {}
    “We have nearly 18 million Copts in Egypt and two million of them abroad,” he told Muawad.


    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2017/03/02/Egypt-s-Coptic-Bishop-Morcos-We-need-to-build-4-000-churches-in-next-10-years.html
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 9:03 pm

    ZoA wrote:You presume too much, as is usual for people that know nothing.

    “If You Can’t Explain it to a Six Year Old, You Don’t Understand it Yourself”
    Albert Einstein (at least it is attributed to him Smile



    Assumption of status quo being optimal, as well as blind confidence in wisdom of leaders, is usual for people that have no understanding of how system works. You lack basic comprehension of political economy to understand what consequences any policy might have or why someone might want to pursue it over the alternatives. As you lack such understanding of polices itself  you develop  your reasoning as something in the line of " policy is as is because it is best it can be, because it  would make no sense not to pursue best policy possible".

    So you as example of normal "people" know better then politicians who actually make d best decisions based on data they have and you not? It is like you plan to subscribe to driving license course and criticize rally champions.


    As for putting in my mouth words I didnt say: I didnt say it is optimal but I said the best you can get in this situation taking into account all constrains.

    die Politik ist die Lehre vom Möglichen
    -
    “Politics is the art of the possible”
    Otto von Bismarck
    so you know about politics more then Putin & Bismarck combined?


    While such reasoning is not in itself irrational , in fact it is one of more reasonable ones one could assume if he lacks understanding of system as a whole, it is still erroneous in our case because it is based on two wrong premises. First is that Putin himself is infallible, 2nd is that Putin has only concern of Russian state as consideration during policy forming.

    did I say he is infallible? What a Face What a Face What a Face

    and second what is Putin's concern? did you see what happened last 18 years or his rule?
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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 30, 2018 9:16 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    since the topic here has touched on demographics, I'd like to share this article I found from RFE, now I know that RFE is a NATO funded Information Propaganda agency but I'd like to know what you people think about what this article suggests as islamic immigrant takeover of Russia's rural areas, if true then this is a disturbing trend that needs to be reversed immediately. Russia needs to invest more efforts for Christianization and Russufication of its non ethnic Russian territories as well as countries of the former Soviet Union. BTW this is a surprisingly lengthly article so I hope you people will have the patience to read it.
    ....................


    This is interesting and all but they keep ignoring one little detail: Russia actually has a birthrate and it's distributed across all confessions equally.

    Besides, even if Russia does one day become fully Islamic country it will happen loooong after Europe and USA become full-fledged Caliphates (I am talking after pretty much centuries here). It's already happening big time, oh yeah. Cool

    In Russia you have Christians and Muslims. In USA and Europe you have Liberal Atheists and Muslims. Guess who will stay in the game longer? Twisted Evil

    As long as white Europeans and Americans are out-bred by Muslim immigrants first it's a win in my book. That segment of human population does not deserve to exists. Two-faced back-stabbing double-crossing genocidal parasites that they are.

    What happens in Russia after that is Russia's business. But honestly I am pretty sure it will be current status quo ad infinitum. Desire to reproduce seems to be common trait to all segments of population over there. Just make sure that guns and money are in place and everything will work out great.

    Because guns and money are main prerequisites for stable population growth. Everything else is irrelevant.

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    Re: Russian Economy General News: #9

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