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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 pm

    AO-34 experimental assault rifle

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    VSSM Vintorez sniper rifle

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    SV-18 sniper rifle

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    AO-38M experimental assault rifle

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    AO-40 experimental assault rifle

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    https://www.vitalykuzmin.net/Military/ARMY-2019-Exhibition-pavilions/
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:22 pm

    They said they were going to showcase some previously unknown old prototypes from years gone by...

    Ironically, the only weapon in that post that I could legally by with the new laws here is the 12.7mm SV-18 heavy anti material rifle, which would probably be lethal to humans and light vehicles out to about 1.5km... but it is OK because it is a bolt action and only has a 5 shot mag. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:They said they were going to showcase some previously unknown old prototypes from years gone by...

    Ironically, the only weapon in that post that I could legally by with the new laws here is the 12.7mm SV-18 heavy anti material rifle, which would probably be lethal to humans and light vehicles out to about 1.5km... but it is OK because it is a bolt action and only has a 5 shot mag.  Rolling Eyes

    Didn't you say you had to give many of your rifles up recently because of the Christchurch mosque shooting?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 pm

    Yeah, my Chinese AKM copy was a nice rifle... cheap ammo, and a good calibre for goats and small deer within 100m or so, and my Chinese M4 carbine was a nice little rifle too, but I wasn't overly impressed with the 5.56mm round.

    What really annoyed me was my L1A1, in near new condition, it was a really nice rifle, powerful and comfortable to shoot... of course all of them were ruined because of the stupid laws regarding large magazines... on a normal 20 round mag for the L1A1 or the 30 round for the M4 or AK the magazine is a big substantial thing to grab with your off hand and once you have a hold of it you can operate the mag release with your thumb (or fore finger with the M4), so when the mag came out you had a good hold of it, and a good hold of the rifle with your other hand.

    With the stupid small mags we had to use there was no mag to grab so you had to hold the gun under your arm and with one hand hold the end of the mag and with the other hand hit the mag release... a real pain in the ass... but that is what the law required so that is what I put up with being the law abiding citizen I am...

    I see the local gun chain is now selling these:

    https://www.guncity.com/762x54r-izhmash-tigr-straight-pull-with-dragunov-stock-357651

    I am sure the media will go mental when they work it out... but it follows their stupid new laws... that is what they get when they rush through crap without talking about it...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:20 pm

    Yeah they'll see a SVD clone and they'll scream "AK-47!!!!!"
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:42 am

    Or Machine Gun...
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    Post  George1 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:54 pm

    Russia’s top brass mulls arming military pilots with PP-2000 submachine gun


    A more compact PP-2000 submachine gun is meant to replace the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 9 12287910

    MOSCOW, August 16. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry is considering including a more compact PP-2000 submachine gun into the military pilots’ survival kit instead of the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle, a source in the domestic defense industry told TASS on Friday.

    "A proposal has been put forward to study the possibility of arming military pilots with a very compact PP-2000 instead of the AKS-74U. The defense agency has responded with interest to this proposal," the source said.

    A pilot’s survival deployment kit, which the ground personnel place into the ejection seat bucket before a combat sortie, includes the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle, the ammunition load and grenades in addition to food and water supplies, a first-aid set and communications gear. Also, when a pilot goes on a combat sortie, for example, in Syria, he takes a Makarov or a Stechkin pistol with him as additional arms and places it together with the magazines into the ammunition vest.

    The PP-2000 has been developed by the Tula Design Bureau of Instrument-Making for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge. The submachine gun is among the world’s lightest firearms: it weighs 1.4kg without the magazine and the buttstock. As its specific feature, the PP-2000 offers the possibility to use a spare magazine as a shoulder support. The breechblock lever and the magazine’s latch button can be re-installed on any side, which makes it possible for both a right-hand and a left-hand serviceman to use the gun.

    The serial-produced PP-2000 submachine guns have been equipped with a removable side-folding metallic butt since 2006. The PP-2000’s length is 582 mm with the unfolded butt and 350 mm without the butt. For the sake of comparison, the AKS-74U is 730 mm long with the unfolded butt and 490m long with the folded butt.

    https://tass.com/defense/1073742
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:46 pm

    George1 wrote:

    Russia’s top brass mulls arming military pilots with PP-2000 submachine gun





    A more compact PP-2000 submachine gun is meant to replace the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 9 12287910

    MOSCOW, August 16. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry is considering including a more compact PP-2000 submachine gun into the military pilots’ survival kit instead of the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle, a source in the domestic defense industry told TASS on Friday.

    "A proposal has been put forward to study the possibility of arming military pilots with a very compact PP-2000 instead of the AKS-74U. The defense agency has responded with interest to this proposal," the source said.

    A pilot’s survival deployment kit, which the ground personnel place into the ejection seat bucket before a combat sortie, includes the Kalashnikov AKS-74U assault rifle, the ammunition load and grenades in addition to food and water supplies, a first-aid set and communications gear. Also, when a pilot goes on a combat sortie, for example, in Syria, he takes a Makarov or a Stechkin pistol with him as additional arms and places it together with the magazines into the ammunition vest.

    The PP-2000 has been developed by the Tula Design Bureau of Instrument-Making for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge. The submachine gun is among the world’s lightest firearms: it weighs 1.4kg without the magazine and the buttstock. As its specific feature, the PP-2000 offers the possibility to use a spare magazine as a shoulder support. The breechblock lever and the magazine’s latch button can be re-installed on any side, which makes it possible for both a right-hand and a left-hand serviceman to use the gun.

    The serial-produced PP-2000 submachine guns have been equipped with a removable side-folding metallic butt since 2006. The PP-2000’s length is 582 mm with the unfolded butt and 350 mm without the butt. For the sake of comparison, the AKS-74U is 730 mm long with the unfolded butt and 490m long with the folded butt.

    https://tass.com/defense/1073742

    SR-2 Veresk is a better choice, because its effective range is 200m in a compact package (just hundred meters short of the effective range of most assault rifle rounds), and it's 9x21mm cartridge is by far the best pistol round made in decades. Hits harder than a .45, high armor perforation (capable of penetrating 2 1.2 mm titanium plates, plus 30 layers of Kevlar, at 50 m), plus the polyethylene shell expands in a open wound channel and shatters and the fragments tumble within the target.

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    Post  kvs on Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:13 pm

    I have no idea if this was posted when there was discussion about the AN-94. But I think the analysis is BS.



    When he sees delicate complexity I see nothing special at all. In particular, I fail to see any part or parts that
    can fail. I am not talking about wearing down since all machine gun parts that experience friction wear down.
    Somehow if this design was from a NATO gun maker I suspect that he would be singing its praises for being
    sophisticated and radical innovation. With some token reservations about practicality. But since it is from
    Russia it is treated as bizarre and like a joke.

    BTW, Americans love field stripping as if in an actual war there will be time and tools (e.g. gun oil) to do this.
    In the real world, soldiers throw away their malfunctioning guns and pick up usable ones from their dead comrades.
    There was a reason for making the PPSh-41 simple as Hell, that was to enable enough units to be manufactured
    with nearly non-existent manufacturing capacity. The AN-94 is clearly not designed to be put out by some
    hastily assembled factory that can only bend sheet metal. So its complexity has no bearing unless it undermines
    its function and reliability. Given how Russian gun makers test their guns, I would say the AN-94 can withstand
    more abuse than anything put out by NATO.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:47 am

    I have moved the information on the space survival gun (Tp-82) and the subsequent conversation about it to another thread as they are not really related to assault rifles or machine guns.

    This is the new thread if you are interested:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7911-hunting-rifles-thread


    SR-2 Veresk is a better choice, because its effective range is 200m in a compact package

    I agree, but it really depends on the calibre they choose... right now only special forces seem to be using the 9x21mm though the new Boa pistol seems to be in 9x21mm too... which could impact SMG choices.

    They have Kashtan and Kedr/Klin type SMGs in service at the moment in small numbers and the Vityaz seems to be popular too, but in terms of compact weapons the PP-2000 is pretty good.

    I must say when I first saw the PP-2000 I thought it looked weird and a bit silly, but there are a few videos out there of it being used and it actually seems to be pretty good.

    Of course they will find a change from 5,45x39mm calibre to 9x19mm will be a bit of a change in terms of performance, and of course if they are dropping the 9x18mm because it lacks power, then why go for the 9x19mm which NATO is also looking to replace because it lacks power... especially when their own special forces demanded a more potent pistol round and are using 9x21mm ammo as their solution?

    They don't need fancy rounds, just cheap standard ball rounds could be standard issue... with a SMG it is not the same as with a pistol... even a relatively low lethality round like a .22lr becomes lethal when you get hit half a dozen times... you would certainly stop what you were doing...

    Of course crankng out mass produced new rounds with armour piercing and anti personel performance all built in to one round makes sense too, so if mass production might reduce costs and make it cheaper than it would make sense to do that.

    Of course that could trigger a change to the new calibre across the board... I would suspect 9x21mm would be no problem in the Vityaz because of its size and weight, and the Kashtan could probably convert easily enough too, but I suspect it might be too powerful for the Kin/Kedr design which might need a revision and modification in design to use the more powerful ammo.

    I have no idea if this was posted when there was discussion about the AN-94. But I think the analysis is BS.

    Very Happy Very Happy Was the first item posted on this thread... by Arctic Fox... Smile

    When he sees delicate complexity I see nothing special at all. In particular, I fail to see any part or parts that
    can fail. I am not talking about wearing down since all machine gun parts that experience friction wear down.
    Somehow if this design was from a NATO gun maker I suspect that he would be singing its praises for being
    sophisticated and radical innovation. With some token reservations about practicality. But since it is from
    Russia it is treated as bizarre and like a joke.

    Ironic as there are plenty of fragile pieces of crap currently operated by NATO countries.

    Another thing is that because they are ignorant of Russian weapon design they think these balanced recoil systems and multi impulse systems are brand new technology... they don't realise that versions of these weapons went up against the AK-74 and lost in the 1970s...

    These are further improvements and upgrades of some rather old operating principles and are getting better all the time... in fact the reason Kalashnikovs dominate is largely conservatism within the military than because these new ideas are bad.

    So its complexity has no bearing unless it undermines
    its function and reliability. Given how Russian gun makers test their guns, I would say the AN-94 can withstand
    more abuse than anything put out by NATO.

    I totally agree, and of course the other aspect is that if a US unit finds itself in Afghanistan in the dust and heat and they can't get their space age new lubricants for their guns they might find they have serious problems too.

    A freedom fighter there can just walk up to the nearest motor vehicle and use the contents of the oil on the dipstick to wipe down his rifle parts and keep it working...
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    Post  Regular on Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:46 pm

    kvs wrote:I have no idea if this was posted when there was discussion about the AN-94.   But I think the analysis is BS.



    When he sees delicate complexity I see nothing special at all.  In particular, I fail to see any part or parts that
    can fail.  I am not talking about wearing down since all machine gun parts that experience friction wear down.
    Somehow if this design was from a NATO gun maker I suspect that he would be singing its praises for being
    sophisticated and radical innovation.   With some token reservations about practicality.  But since it is from
    Russia it is treated as bizarre and like a joke.  

    BTW, Americans love field stripping as if in an actual war there will be time and tools (e.g. gun oil) to do this.
    In the real world, soldiers throw away their malfunctioning guns and pick up usable ones from their dead comrades.
    There was a reason for making the PPSh-41 simple as Hell, that was to enable enough units to be manufactured
    with nearly non-existent manufacturing capacity.   The AN-94 is clearly not designed to be put out by some
    hastily assembled factory that can only bend sheet metal.   So its complexity has no bearing unless it undermines
    its function and reliability.   Given how Russian gun makers test their guns, I would say the AN-94 can withstand
    more abuse than anything put out by NATO.  

    Forgotten weapons is run by some ponytail homosexual with trembling voice. I can't watch it. There are better Russian channels out there that have tested forgotten weapons like the ones taken from Germans by the end of WW2 and experimental Soviet ones.

    Razvedos and Russian and few other ex special forces members call AN-94 piece of shit that is pain in the ass to maintain. They all call this failed experiment and don't give it's designer Nikonov praise it deserves.

    https://youtu.be/J4cYJwx_s_0


    Probably best video about AN-94
    https://youtu.be/vkkmn6JTdoI


    Vladimir Onokoy who works for Kalashnikov recently shot AN-94 on youtube, tested it and wrote about it. It's too complex, too expensive and not trustworthy.



    AEK and AK-107 series systems are far superior systems yet cost plays a major factor.
    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 9 Xak12-11

    Even Ak-12 project was downgraded from original design to retarded tuning version with Magpul. Just because MOD didn't want to spend more to get superior rifle from the same company.
    That's the bane for US military that has so many better options, but can't rearm themselves with HK rifles.
    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 9 Hqdefa10

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    SR-2 Veresk is a better choice, because its effective range is 200m in a compact package (just hundred meters short of the effective range of most assault rifle rounds), and it's 9x21mm cartridge is by far the best pistol round made in decades. Hits harder than a .45, high armor perforation (capable of penetrating 2 1.2 mm titanium plates, plus 30 layers of Kevlar, at 50 m), plus the polyethylene shell expands in a open wound channel and shatters and the fragments tumble within the target.

    I can't agree more. SR family of SMGs are well proven in hands of special forces.
    Now personally I would still prefer carabine over any pee shooter. Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 9 Kalash10
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:31 am

    As a person with hunting experience I would say any weapon... even a compact weapon in 5.45x39mm would be far superior to a weapon even in a potent 9mm calibre for hunting game.

    For survival a .22lr or a centrefire assault rifle cartridge offer better ballistics and performance for killing wild animals.

    If you are a pilot and you just land on the ground whether you have a AKS-74U or a PKP I don't think it is going to matter much, because there are either lots of bad guys rapidly closing in on your position, or the cavalry are arriving.

    If you need to cover some ground a lighter smaller weapon is best, but often I suspect the choice of weapon really only results in determining the trophy the bad guys get when they find you.

    Sorry to be so morbid, but such weapons are often moral weapons.

    That US exSpecial Forces guy Larry Vickers seems to love the AK-107. He also has some other videos on line where he tests some interesting weapons and he seems to be pretty fair and open about his evaluations.

    With the AN-94 of course he shot it, but didn't have to clean it or take it apart and put it back together, so for him its effects and performance are good and useful.



    As he mentions, the hyperburst is for the average soldier to get tight groupings of rounds so when firing at a moving target you are more likely to get at least one hit and possibly two increasing lethality and hit probability.

    Sad thing is that you probably need a special forces guy to maintain the weapon for you.

    Having said that the West German G11 basically was even more complex and could not be stripped down very much at all... any faults didn't go to the armourer, they went back to the factory...

    The AEK-471 was popular with him too:



    But he also likes the AK-107 too...



    Note, he starts with a large capacity drum, but when he fires it changes to a standard 30 round stick mag... I suspect they didn't have the slomo camera when they fired with the drum and either used old footage or filmed some new shots in slomo but only had the stick mag...

    Not a big problem of course...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:16 am

    1.) We shouldn't confuse what a paratrooper would be armed with, vs. what a jet pilot would be armed with. With restrictions in space in a cockpit your limited to what you can actually can carry. Veresk makes since for a pilot, but for a paratrooper a carbine like AK-74U or something like it would be the natural choice.

    2.) Assault rifles and other small arms will never be game changers or force multipliers on the battlefield. Going super high tech despite complexity, cost, reliability is particularly wasteful considering how conscripts have been notoriously careless. The money spent on the gold plating on rifles could be used to develop and or procure real force multipliers, like some of the UGV's that they plan on introducing, the ones that can carry troops, ammo, supplies and equipment, provide mobile cover and serious fire support.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:24 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    SV-18 sniper rifle

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:59 am

    I agree with your first point, the first priority is the most compact weapon that gives them some chance to survive until help arrives.

    It just needs to be an effective self defence weapon, they don't need to take on entire enemy formations with the weapon.

    You could argue that all they need is a pistol and a hand grenade for when the pistol is out of ammo, but that would be very depressing and negative for the pilots.

    For fighter jet pilots they have a survival system as part of their ejection seat system that includes and assault rifle and ammo and survival gear like a small inflatable boat for over water use or a survival shelter for land...

    For helicopter pilots the kit is generally carried on their chest rigs, because you need to have things at hand as you may get very little warning before you have to get out.

    What you need is something that is small and compact but more than just a pistol that you can use to hold off the enemy until help arrives... perhaps an hour or two... or is not too heavy and will slow you down if you have to move.

    I agree the SR-2 would be fine... the Kashtan would also be an interesting option too, but the PP-2000 also seems to be a useful weapon too.

    I have mentioned on here that I think the 9x21mm should be adopted over the 9x19mm, simply because it is a Russian calibre and if the problem with the 9x18 was lack of power then the 9x21mm is a better solution being more powerful than the 9x19mm round.

    Once the 9x21mm round is established and in mass production the price per round should come down to reasonable levels yet its performance is already much better than any 9x19mm round available.

    For your second point, I do think modern reliable and capable rifles do really make a difference... it is dramatically easier to shoot with optical sights than with iron sights, which take time to master and have some problems during stress and lighting conditions.

    Having an accurate rifle is important and having confidence that the gun will fire and will hit what you aim at cannot be overestimated.

    Being able to out range an enemy is important... reports from afghanistan about rebels out ranging NATO rifles in 5.56mm are amusing, but pretty obvious to expect. When you have fire power advantages over an enemy they will of course look at your fire power and try to find gaps or weaknesses.

    5.45mm and 5.56mm calibre weapons are intended for use to about 300m at most, it is only arrogance in the US and UK where they talk about 600m or 800m shooting with such weapons.

    The west enjoyed claiming that Muj rebels were sniping Soviets with 303s out of range of their small arms, while secretly supplying them with chinese made weapons and weapons captured from arab armies by israel.

    Of course the Kalashnikovs being used to outrange western small arms were not AKMs in 7.62x39mm, they were PKs in 7.62x54mmR calibre and they tended to try to engage at 800-900m where they knew the American soldiers who had swapped long and awkward M16s with shorter handier M4s that could fire full auto instead of single shot and three round burst fire, really can't hit targets at anything like that range, and even if they did the wound was often a simple through wound that was not immediately life threatening.

    Ironically accuracy will negate the effectiveness of body armour as most body armour able to stop rifle bullets does so with heavy plates protecting primarily the chest area, so an armour piercing round to the belly would be effective against even the best body armour in service... except the armour used by bomb disposal people who generally have the heaviest body armour because they don't need mobility or flexibility.

    New effective rifles with the necessary training can make a serious difference to the field performance of a military force... it wont fix something that is broken, but it should improve performance.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:13 pm

    In Afghanistan real killers in infantry hands are machine guns. They offer more firepower, sustainability and reach in engagement. Of course small arms do play a role, but it's all about making soldiers life easier - thus making them more effective. Sights, ergonomics, reliability. From my perspective I would love to see best equipment being used rather than going for cost-cutter.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:38 am


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