Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20801
    Points : 21355
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 02, 2019 11:51 am

    Well, the Sosna still hasn't been deployed as far as i am aware of, and Russia is also in the process of upgrading the Strela-10s anyway.

    Technology moves on so it is often easier to fit a new seeker or systems to an old model weapon to make it easier and cheaper to maintain.

    The Russians continue to upgrade the T-72 at a time when there are multiple replacements on the verge or in service... T-90, T-14 Armata, Kurganets tank, Boomerang tank, Typhoon tank, and of course Sprut light tank.

    So the upgrades are fine then.

    True, but not worth spending a lot of money on because the clients wont want state of the art super dooper systems... well they probably will, but they wont be prepared to pay the sort of money needed for such levels of performance.

    For instance getting an upgraded Shilka with all new AESA radar and all the electronics replaced with new missiles and upgraded design might cost 5 million per vehicle... but it might cost 6 million for a basic model Tunguska... which is a much better base vehicle... the guns are effective to roughly twice the range, and the missiles will also double the range of any MANPADS and actually be cheaper simple command guided missiles rather than more expensive IR guided weapons.

    The thing is that weapons are for using and not for show, so having cheaper missiles is rather more important than western experts will admit... in combat soldiers will fire ATGMs at all sorts of things and with SAMs it is the same... the SA-19 is not an expensive missile and you could use it against drones with reasonable effectiveness, but Verba MANPADS are going to be much more sophisticated and expensive, while likely being more capable in some areas....


    Either way the Sosna isn't ready yet, haven't heard about any unit orders yet.

    Sosna-R is the export model name, the domestic model name is Bagul’nik, but I have also read of it being called Strela-10ML. The missile itself is actually already used in their navy in the Palma and Palash CIWS gun mounts.

    My understanding is that the standard system is MTLB based but there is a BMD-4 based model to replace SA-13 (which is not air droppable) and the ZU-23-2 in the VDV.

    True, although then there's the question of how many targets it can engage at once, after all it only has one Laser beam channel.
    Probly the only advantage the Strela has, i guess.

    It can probably only guide one missile at a time, but the booster accelerates the missile to 900m/s and its very low drag second stage means flight times are very short out even to max range... The cost of that advantage is rather high because it makes it expensive to use. The Sosna vehicle has 12 ready to use missiles that can kill targets in a circle 20km across and 5km high... that is very powerful.

    Although there is mention of a small acquisition Radar to engage more targets, not much info on this component though?

    I suspect the SOSNA vehicle will not be fitted with radar to make it a passive node in terms of the network, but it can still detect and track targets on its own... presumably it can detect and lase targets beyond 10km range around its own position... lack of a radar in the Russian military is not a problem really as most air defence vehicles get their targets and orders from command vehicles anyway most of the time. The don't roll around the place looking for air targets themselves... that would be very inefficient and disorganised.

    Problem is, that it is from seventies and missile's IR homing head is not that good against modern small targets as drones, bombs, missiles, etc, although in Syria, they shot down cruise missiles.

    They have upgraded the seeker several times to improve its performance and increase its resistance to countermeasures... the M3 model was advertised in the early 2000s and mentions abilities to hit small targets like cruise missiles and drones... but that is as much to do with the laser proximity fuse than the seeker really... the Igla seeker could detect small drones and cruise missiles but it was the Igla-S that got a proximity fuse before they said it was capable of being used effectively against small targets.

    And of course the much higher flight speed means it can engage more targets than you might think... plus it can engage targets no matter what their IR signature including targets on the ground or in bad weather.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3511
    Points : 3595
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  medo on Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 pm

    VDV could got both systems installed on their BTR-MDM vehicles. Sosna-R and Gibka-S. VDV already have both Igla-S and Verba in arsenal and both systems will most probably use the same barnaul-T command post.

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 9a332-10

    Gibka-S is light complex, what is important for VDV and enable the operater to work with it for longer with no need to have heavy missile on his shoulders for a longer time.

    When we talk abould cheap air defense, we must not forget on BMPT, although air defense is its secondary role and meant only for self defense. With BMPT we talk aboult Ataka missiles, which it have in armament. Ataka is simple laser guided missile, same as Sosna missile. It is made in many versions, newer ATGM versions have range of 8 to 10 km. But Ataka is also made in 9M220O anti air version, which have expanding rod fragmentation warhead and proximity fuse. It have a range of 7 km and max speed is 550 m/s. For comparison, Roland max speed is 500 m/s. Missile is meant to engage low and slow flying aircraft. When BMPT is connected with air defense command post to receive target info, it is still dangerous surprise for those flying around.
    avatar
    nero

    Posts : 24
    Points : 24
    Join date : 2019-03-26

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  nero on Thu May 02, 2019 6:14 pm

    There is currently a massive bombing campaign happening on Idlib with Syrian Arab Army moving into position to attack the region from the South-West. The initial bombing campaign was started exactly a month ago, though the last few days are an obvious increase in attacks, both by the Russian Air Force and the SyAFF.
    avatar
    par far

    Posts : 1782
    Points : 1957
    Join date : 2014-06-26

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  par far on Thu May 02, 2019 9:58 pm

    nero wrote:There is currently a massive bombing campaign happening on Idlib with Syrian Arab Army moving into position to attack the region from the South-West. The initial bombing campaign was started exactly a month ago, though the last few days are an obvious increase in attacks, both by the Russian Air Force and the SyAFF.

    It has intensified, here are some videos.











    https://southfront.org/russian-and-syrian-warplanes-carried-out-more-than-hundred-airstrikes-in-last-24-hours-videos/



    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4931
    Points : 5086
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu May 02, 2019 11:51 pm

    medo wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Well, the Sosna still hasn't been deployed as far as i am aware of, and Russia is also in the process of upgrading the Strela-10s anyway.

    https://weaponews.com/news/65349093-the-defense-ministry-is-preparing-to-adopt-a-short-range-sam-sosna.html

    True. Russia finnished state tests with Sosna-R in March this year and now they went in production. We could expect first deliveries late this year or in the beginning of next year. Russia upgrade only 70 Strela-10 to Strela-10MN, mostly for VDV units, which will use them untill new air defense complexes based on BTR-MDM will come in armament.

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Master10

    To be honest, better actual replacement for Strela-10 is Gibka-S VSHORAD system, same as Strela-10, which is now in process of state tests. It uses Igla-S or Verba MANPADs and is more comparable with Strela-10 or as it is based on Tigr-M vehicle, with Strela-1. Strela-10MN is still usefull, as it is integrated in IADS with data link and have FLIR camera for night operations. Problem is, that it is from seventies and missile's IR homing head is not that good against modern small targets as drones, bombs, missiles, etc, although in Syria, they shot down cruise missiles.

    AlfaT8 wrote:True, although then there's the question of how many targets it can engage at once, after all it only has one Laser beam channel.

    Correct, Sosna-R could engage only 1 target with 1 missile simultaneously, similar as Tunguska. In Russian army, Sosna-R will take its place in the level between Tor-m2 and MANPADs with their self propelled variants like Gibka-S. Sosna-R coulod still give good protection to Tor-M2, specially in time of reloading. Baterry of 6 Sosna-R have 72 missiles on launchers and 6 channels to guide 6 missiles against 6 targets and their missiles are also simple and cheap and could be produced in large numbers. Ideally a baterry of 4 Tor-M2 will have protection of battery of 6 Sosna-R. that would mean 136 missiles in launchers ready to fire and 22 channels to guide 22 missiles against 22 targets simultaneously. This is quite important, when you have to deal with attacks with larger number of bombs, drones, missiles. Not many states could send such a large number of expensive guided missiles, bombs or drones against 1 target as noone want to fly too close to such defense to drop unguided bombs. In IADS you have to look on the SAM system layered in defense with other systems in higher and lower level.

    1 missile for 1 target implies that 1 Sosna-R is fighting by itself. Strategic command posts would allow it to take on more threats with a higher capability. I remember the strategic command post for Panstir, Baikal-M, was able to make the Kornet-EM ATGM incredibly effective against cruise missiles.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20801
    Points : 21355
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 03, 2019 1:01 am

    VDV could got both systems installed on their BTR-MDM vehicles. Sosna-R and Gibka-S. VDV already have both Igla-S and Verba in arsenal and both systems will most probably use the same barnaul-T command post.

    Well it would certainly make sense... SOSNA-R, Igla-S, and Verba all have proximity fuses and accurate guidance systems to allow the engagement of rather small elusive targets like drones and missiles, and the infantry will almost certainly carry MANPADS as well, though mounting it on a vehicle would improve ammo capacity, rate of fire, communications and awareness of threats etc.

    The MANPADS are capable fire and forget weapons, while the new Sosna-R is a much faster missile with a much larger engagement envelope...

    When BMPT is connected with air defense command post to receive target info, it is still dangerous surprise for those flying around.

    Actually I suspect the BMPT with airburst 30mm cannon shells would be a near perfect solution to enemy drones... especially suicide drones... a burst of 4-5 rounds exploding all around an incoming drone should probably damage most light drones to the point where they can no longer fly to their objective...

    The initial bombing campaign was started exactly a month ago, though the last few days are an obvious increase in attacks, both by the Russian Air Force and the SyAFF.

    Interesting they Americans and British and French are not crying publicly for all their terrorists getting killed... perhaps all the (type of) people wanting to come home from Idlib has made them think again about their policies in the region... I mean they are happy to armed prisoners in Venezuela to murder local Venezuelans, but the very idea they might think they could come to the west after it all goes tits up is something they didn't consider when they signed off on this...

    It has intensified, here are some videos.

    Interesting they use Helicopters... and from the look of it improvised bombs. I suspect they will be using up material they have captured like land mines and various explosive devices to bomb the enemy on the cheap... The low forward flight speed would limit the horizontal spread of anything dropped so they are probably reasonably accurate with their improvised weapons... and if not... just make the next ones bigger...

    1 missile for 1 target implies that 1 Sosna-R is fighting by itself. Strategic command posts would allow it to take on more threats with a higher capability. I remember the strategic command post for Panstir, Baikal-M, was able to make the Kornet-EM ATGM incredibly effective against cruise missiles.

    No, it is not designed to fight by itself normally (it can, but wouldn't). It would be connected to the local IADS network and a command vehicle would give it target data on a nearby highest threat target for it to engage... and other SOSNA-R vehicles would get target data too so they weren't all shooting at the same target and letting the others through...
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3375
    Points : 3371
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Tue May 07, 2019 5:14 pm

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201905071074787879-syria-hmeimim-pantsir-missile-system/

    27 rockets intercepted by tors and pantsirs.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3375
    Points : 3371
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Sat May 11, 2019 4:16 am

    Don't they have tors or pantsirs over there ?

    Syrian Military Capabilities
    @Syrian_MC
    ·
    3h
    Update
    Yesterday at night the #Russia/n air defense battery in the Russian point near Al Tnaf south of #Syria
    Fired a warning shots against unidentified jet flew near the area
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4066
    Points : 4170
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Vann7 on Mon May 13, 2019 5:29 pm

    Isos wrote:Don't they have tors or pantsirs over there ?

    Syrian Military Capabilities
    @Syrian_MC
    ·
    3h
    Update
    Yesterday at night the #Russia/n air defense battery in the Russian point near Al Tnaf south of #Syria
    Fired a warning shots against unidentified jet flew near the area

    If memory don't fail , that is the illegal base in eastern desert of  Syria setup by Americans near
    Jordan border.. that use thousands of civilians as a human shield... and as an excuse for being there..
    for "protecting civilians".   so the unidentified plane ,could be from US airforce . will not be surprising Russia fired bullets strays in the air to scare the plane away of their positions.. a Tor or a Pantsir,, no idea if their missiles can be used as warning shots...

    in other news.. A new video surface that claims that is off Russia airforce bombing
    of a bunker in IDLIB couple of weeks ago..  



    The analysis on charlie website is on Spanish.. but you can translate on English , using
    the google app included in the website on the right.. of the page.

    http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/05/analisis-del-ataque-ruso-contra-un.html

    So some more roasted NATO backed terrorist for good..  what is interesting in video
    is how close is the camera from the attacked place , and that they guy don't scream
    alakahu akbar , as always Alqaeda or ISIS do ..in their videos... and he speak arab ..
    So seems it was a Syrian Special Force unit that infiltrated the place and guided the bomb..
    Anyone who knows Arab ?, might be interesting to know what they are saying on radio on the video
    during the Attack.  I only managed to hear the sound "Russi " as they call Russia..  lol1
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20801
    Points : 21355
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 am

    Looking at it repeatedly frame by frame it seems to me that about 4 or 5 bombs hit from the far side of the opening to the last bomb hitting between the opening and the camera... they looked like a cluster of bombs and the closest bomb sent up a shower of dirt rather than a blast which suggests they were penetrating bombs that dug deep into the ground before exploding.

    Nice cluster pattern... I suspect this was probably either an Su-24 or Su-34 or Tu-22M3 releasing 4-6 bombs heading directly towards the camera and getting all the bombs right on the money...

    Here is a still just before impact so you can see where things are:

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Vlcsna10

    And here is an image just after two bomb impacts showing an opening in the ground glowing from an internal explosion...

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Vlcsna11

    Note the small puff of dust on top where the first bomb hit and it has exploded inside the ground leading to the flash of light coming out of the tunnel facing the camera...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20801
    Points : 21355
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 14, 2019 12:54 pm

    Actually, watching the video in slow motion I actually only see three bomb hits and all three seem to be penetrator bombs.

    In this late photo you can see the other two hits, and the first photo shows the first hit...

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Vlcsna12
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4066
    Points : 4170
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Vann7 on Fri May 17, 2019 2:01 pm

    F-16 fighter plane crashes in California ????   confused

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 F-16-crash

    When i saw that news.. yesterday.. and saw the plane and then the hole in the roof..
    something did not add.. specially when the plane was armed with missiles..
    the first thing i though was it was a Cover UP.. and that US military lost a plane
    in some place ,in an embarrassed way and used this other plane to cover up ,what really
    happened..  Though that maybe US lost a plane in Syria when tried to attack Syrian army..
    or Maybe lost a plane vs IRAN when provoked them... or maybe lost a plane vs Venezuela..
    This could explain the sudden visit of Pompeyo to Russia ,to try to ease tensions...

    so far , was not sure about it.. it could be anything.. but for sure will be not surprising if it was
    a cover up ... to a plane shotdown in Venezuela or Middle east..  but did not reported about
    this theories.. but then now saw this report in FORT RUSS...  where they also suspected
    the same thing.. Smile

    BREAKING: “Holy Fu**Ing Sh*T Dude!” American F-16 Warplane CRASHES Into California Warehouse, Cover-Up Exposed

    https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/05/breaking-holy-fuing-sht-dude-american-f-16-warplane-crashes-into-california-warehouse-cover-up-exposed/


    So this things are not rare... happens in both sides.. US mysterious planes hellicopters losses and Russia losses could be happy trigger incidents.. but Russia seems to be more open in reporting losses in Syria , but if you follow US reports , they never lose a single plane in Syria.. not even by pilot
    error or bad weather.. so is suspicious..  US is likely hiding many casualties in Syria.. notices
    how in Yemen war.. those F-16s. including operated by Israel..not Saudis.. fall from the sky more frequently. but never reported in Israeli media , Israel secret war in Yemen. neither losess in Syria reported.. when Gov of Syria reports they took down one .. or two..  by Syrian official numbers count.. Israel lost near a Dozen of planes in Syria , since the war began.. but according to Israel official reports only one..

    This also , remembers me the official story of Why the Norway warship sinked.. Rolling Eyes or how US navy claimed 2 fishing boats of Japan ,hit their warship in same week in different days and created a big hole.. killing some soldiers.. Rolling Eyes Such warships are well armed to prevent fishing boats to come close.. but that week ,US got 2 warships damaged in same way .. ? no way.. there are many small conflicts covered that US engage in a fight with others and lose a plane or get warships damaged by "Accidents". Israel also say "birds damage" one F-35 ,when Syria claimed ,a missile hit their plane..
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 6480
    Points : 6549
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  JohninMK on Fri May 17, 2019 7:35 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 F-16-crash


    OT but clear to me why this crashed, it ran out of fuel. Hence no fire. Smile
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7967
    Points : 8055
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 17, 2019 8:43 pm


    Vann7 wrote:F-16 fighter plane crashes in California ???? ...


    Military planes crash all the time, what does this have to do with Syria? Or anything for that matter?
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4066
    Points : 4170
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Vann7 on Fri May 17, 2019 11:12 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:F-16 fighter plane crashes in California ????    ...


    Military planes crash all the time, what does this have to do with Syria? Or anything for that matter?

    and cover ups happens all the time..
    that is very possible was a staged incident... a major cover up.. that US lost the plane to S-300s in Syria/o IRAN and later they cover it the incident to save face , and claim was in california.. this will explain why Pompeyo was in Sochi..

    The story of the crash with the images of the place doesn't add up....

    When was the last time you saw a plane crashing into a warehouse ,that shows no signals
    of any burn or smoke ? Fire extinguished but without smoke ?  a building that looks extremely clean and lack of any debriss or shattered glass windows.. the surroundings ,even after crashing an F-16 loaded with weapons?  confused


    look witness ,saw the ball of flame on top of the building ,so the burning of the roof.. yet the images
    don't show any signal of smoke or burning.. really amazing paint.. that does not lose
    its shinny new look even after a fire of after a plane crash. Rolling Eyes



    It might be just an accident and a real plane crash s.. but the evidence presented of the crash scenes
    does not appear to be from an F-16 crash scene..  No but instead looks more the plane was placed there ,they manually break it a bit and run a story , how it was a crash accident.  it could be an Israel or US F-16 shot down in Syria ,and they using this story to cover this embarrassing incident.

    We have to pay attentions to Plane "Accidents" reports..from US ,Russia and Israel. and compare it with reports coming from middle east or venezuela..   last year HalTurnershow claimed Russia shoot down a global Hawk drone of US in Syria...by so called claimed sources in the ground  and i though it was fake news.. but then hours later US military reports they lost one Global Hawk drone in california.. in a "crash accident".. coincidence? or cover up ?
    crod
    crod

    Posts : 164
    Points : 191
    Join date : 2009-08-04

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  crod on Sat May 18, 2019 2:18 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    We have to pay attentions to Plane "Accidents" reports..from US ,Russia and Israel. and compare it with reports coming from middle east or venezuela..   last year HalTurnershow claimed Russia shoot down a global Hawk drone of US in Syria...by so called claimed sources in the ground  and i though it was fake news.. but then hours later US military reports they lost one Global Hawk drone in california.. in a "crash accident".. coincidence? or cover up ?

    i'm just not following this confused
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7967
    Points : 8055
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 18, 2019 2:27 am

    crod wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    We have to pay attentions to Plane "Accidents" reports..from US ,Russia and Israel. and compare it with reports coming from middle east or venezuela..   last year HalTurnershow claimed Russia shoot down a global Hawk drone of US in Syria...by so called claimed sources in the ground  and i though it was fake news.. but then hours later US military reports they lost one Global Hawk drone in california.. in a "crash accident".. coincidence? or cover up ?

    i'm just not following this confused


    It's okay, nobody does

    Sponsored content

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:15 pm