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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 am

    They saw being jammed, not the actual F-16s.

    AFAIK the S-200 does not have a home on jam capability and if it did then the F-16 would have had to have done this on purpose... ie jam the missile so it could not detect the plane and as the S-200 flew towards the F-16s jamming signal flown behind the Il-20 and then turned off the jammer... with the loss of the jamming signal to hide behind the missile would then activate its own radar and the first thing it locked on to was the Il-20... the Syrians wouldn't know what it was because it was only there because the Israelis told the Russians they were attacking to the north of Syria so the Il-20 was diverted to the west to avoid the combat situation... one minutes warning proves it was using the Russian aircraft as cover for its escape...

    Either way the information from the Russians clearly showed the four F-16s and the Il-20 and exactly what happened so the Israeli jamming didn't fool them...

    But if they were afraid of a 2nd attack, it was stupid not to wait till the Il-20 returned & the F-16s coming closer to be engaged by the S-200s.

    The S-200 is a long range system.... you would use another system at shorter ranges... and the S-200 battery probably didn't know the Il-20 was even there... they didn't have an IADS in place... they would just see likely four radar reflections merged into one, and another large radar reflection... and they were under attack.

    Intersting news. Israeli used their state of art last gen. ECM and s-400 had all the 4 f-16 on its radar's screen and no fake targets. Too bad russia disn't shot them down to make the s-400 combat proven.

    The Russians and Israelis had an agreement... which the Israelis broke at every level... hope that target was worth it... it will be quite a while... if at all... before they can do that again...

    Of course if their little slide shows they take to the UN about Irans enormous nuclear weapons programmes, they have a very low proof threshold for attacks...

    So, if they wanted to send more of them to the ME, there r still enough.

    You are assuming those not damaged are operational...

    #UPDATE: Saudi Arabia prepares 30 possible counter-measures against US sanctions, not ruling out the possibility of increasing the price of oil over $200 per barrel and a Russian military base in Tabuk- Al-Arabiya

    Amusing but not really practical... simply not buying all the American military products they buy would be enough to snap the US into line...

    I mean it is very hypocritical for the US to tell Saudi Arabia off for killing one journalist when they have a drone programme that has killed thousands of enemies of the US government without trial or due process... not to mention anyone nearby at the time of the execution...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 am

    Actually the ruling family is the Saud family and there are likely some members that would prefer to be friends with Iran and oppose Israeli occupations...

    You can guarantee that certain groups will be applying pressure to ensure if the current head gets replaced it is with a moderate that still wants to focus on fighting Iran and cooperating with Israel because that is all the US really cares about... sabotaging the trade routes China is trying to build to Europe means opposing Iran and keeping Syria in pieces so Saudi gas can be piped to europe instead of Russian gas....
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:02 pm

    Saudi's will not give the Russians a base, you can drop that fantasy idea.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:49 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Saudi's will not give the Russians a base, you can drop that fantasy idea.

    Everyone knows that. But its funny Smile
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:21 am

    More advanced S-300s are transferred to Syria
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:05 am

    Saudi's will not give the Russians a base, you can drop that fantasy idea.

    It is a threat... I very much doubt the Saudis will follow through... and even if they did I don't think Russia would want a base there anyway... too hostile...

    More advanced S-300s are transferred to Syria

    Hahahahaha... funny... this article states the obvious... the S-300PMU2 is not going to be operated by Iranians... where did that speculation come from?

    I suspect the US or Israel, because if they could claim it was being operated by Iranians that would make it a valid target for them because Iran is the root of all evil everywhere... except as this article points out, these model S-300s are the latest updated model of the system... nobody uses it except Russia, so only Russian personnel could be training the Syrians to use it because nobody else has any experience in using it.

    Also any experience against Greek or Ukrainian S-300s becomes meaningless too.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:01 pm

    Also any experience against Greek or Ukrainian S-300s becomes meaningless too.
    Still, it'll be better than nothing! The Chinese installed similar HQ-9s on their SC Sea islands, so they can "train" against them too, flying from Okinawa, Vietnam &/ Taiwan! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-9#Deployment_in_South_China_Sea
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:47 pm

    Looks like the ex Russian stock S-300 currently in Syria are the full fat current Russian version are going to be downgraded to export spec before handover to the Syrians. Just love the headline

    Russian specialists re-equipping S-300 systems delivered to Syria for local operation

    MOSCOW, October 19. /TASS/. Russian specialists are re-equipping S-300PM air defense missile systems delivered to Syria into S-300PMU-2 ‘Favorit’ complexes for their local operation, a source in military and diplomatic circles told TASS on Friday.

    "In October, three battalions of S-300PM systems and their ammunition load were delivered to Syria. Later, a regimental command post was brought to the country. All the hardware makes part of the S-300PM equipment set, except for the reconnaissance and air target detection radar of the regiment’s command post, which is part of the S-300PM-2," the source said.

    "Technical specialists of Russian defense enterprises who arrived after that started work to re-equip S-300PM into S-300-PMU-2 systems," the source said. This work largely relates to "replacing Russian codes and letter frequencies of the ground interrogator and the letter frequencies of the radar for Syrian versions," the source explained. "The Russian specialists will complete their work in late October, after which they will return home," the source said.

    The agreement to deliver S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Syria was signed back in 2010 but was later put on hold. On September 24, 2018, after the loss of Russia’s Il-20 reconnaissance plane in Syria, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said that Russia would transfer S-300 systems to the Syrian armed forces to enhance their combat potential. On October 2, Shoigu told Putin that the S-300s had been deployed to Syria.



    More: http://tass.com/defense/1026862
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 pm

    Well if israeli manage to get info on a russian s-300 they will need to change everything in russia's s-300. A low paid syrian soldier could sell secret to them. It already happened with a mig-21 landing in israel in the 70s or 80s.

    I'm pretty sure russia will use them to close the airspace for turkish fighter when retaking idlib will be on the table. So they will be operated by russian another year. Maybe the re equiping is done to allow russians to operate them at full power without being the same as the s-300 in russia.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:18 pm

    It looks like the Russian Navy blocking force that surged into the Med is now over as most of the 'extra' ships deployed there are now back in the Black Sea.

    Interesting to see if they go back ahead of any major action in Idlib.
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    BKP

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  BKP on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:45 pm

    Published on 9/28, but still pretty fresh.

    Russia is going to apply a total no fly zone in Syria

    Military science used the expression “security measures used in combat”. The United States has applied extremely sophisticated security measures of combat in all theatres in which they operate to protect their soldiers. As Russia did not want to get on the wrong side of Israel, Turkey and the United States, did not want to take this type of measure. They told themselves: “everything’s fine”. But this policy has not worked. They have lost 15 officers, who died when the Russian reconnaissance plan, IL-20, was brought down. All these officers were highly qualified in a very sensitive sector. Russia will need 5 to 6 years before they can be replaced.

    The consequence of this drama is that Moscow is going to take very tough security measures in Syria, regardless of what the reaction of Washington may be.

    Thus the Russian Minister of Defense has declared that in two weeks’ time he would provide Syria with modern systems of anti-air (AA) missiles: S-300 / PMU2, with a 250 km range. But it is not these missiles that will guarantee the security of the planes and the Russian and Syrian land targets. This is why they are not the most important element. The true importance is the global architecture created by Russia around the Syrian air space.

    In addition to the AA systems S-300 / PMU2, Russia is going to deliver the most modern system in the world for air-management. This is called C3I which ensures automated management. This represents a giant step for the Syrian army, increasing precision by 50 times. Thus the launch of the oldest missiles belonging to the Soviet period (the S-200, S-75, S-125, etc.) will no longer be a risk-ladened venture; in fact, it will be almost as precise as the S-300.

    The role of the systems of automated management is an interface that is necessary to enable the Syrian air and defense units to work at the same time, now with the Russians as well.

    1. Once a radar in Syria detects an air target in Syria, the automated system will display the information on all the radars for recognizing and controlling the air force and the Syrian and Russian missiles and AA artillery.

    2. All the units of AA missiles and the Syrian inceptor planes will be stored in the memory of the Russian integrated computer servers that store the radar print of all the air targets and include cruise missiles and the F35.

    3. Once identified, the air targets are recorded and their data re-dispatched from the central automated system towards the command of the Syrian Armed Forces. The entire process is automatically supervised by the Head of the Russian Contingency in Syria.

    4. All air targets (civil planes, Russian, Syrian and foreign military planes) are symbolized by coloured buttons, ranging from blue, green, yellow, orange and red according to the degree of risk. This also creates an order of priority for responding to enemy attack. In the second screen shot (see image) the automated management system observed how the Israeli F-16 manoeuvred so as to put the Russian IL-20 plane between it and the s-200 missile.

    5. The Russian IT system then puts in a position of combat, all the units of Syrian Air Force and the Syrian missiles that extrapolate the trajectory of the targets assigned, by predicting the land targets of the enemy, by calculating the number and type of fighter planes available and the AA missiles that have to enter into action.

    6. The Syrian planes and missiles are controlled by a channel of data flow, impossible to mess with.

    7. The automated systems of management have also equipment that makes any interference impossible. It calculates, by a method of triangulation, the coordinates of the air target, that generates the interference. The Syrian Army will also receive from Russia specialized material in this domain. The result is a precise following of the evolution of the generators of interference and the elimination of false targets.

    8. Russia will deploy equipment that permits to interfere the navigation teams by satellite (GPS), naval or air transported radars, the data and communications for all means of attack against Syria from the Mediterranean. This interference equipment will operate under the coordination of the management system of the Syrian air space. The British “invisible” cruise missiles Storm Shadow, the French Scalp, the US JASMM missiles and the invisible Tomahawk launched last April, are guided by GPS. Fortune no longer favours them, for no longer will they be able to touch any more any targets in Syria. And all this due to the operation by which the Israelis provoked the destruction of the Russian plane IL 20, with the participation of a French frigate and a British Tornado plane.

    9. It is very probable that the system of automatisation deployed will be Polyana D4M1. It can:
    • cover an area of 800 km2 (the equivalent of the entire area of France)
    • follow 500 air targets and ballistic missiles at the same time and act at the same time against 250 of them.
    • integrate more than 14 divisions of the long range AA missiles S-300, short range and medium range AA missiles, of whatever generation. The reaction time is 1-3 seconds.

    10. Once the Syrian Army will be integrated in this system of air space management, its system will be similar to those of the Russian, US, British, French and Israeli armies. The Syrian Arab Army will then be able to unleash an offensive against the terrorists in the province of Idleb, without fearing US, British, Israeli and French reprisals. And from this point of view, the external aggression waged in Syria, masked by the expression “civil war” will soon end.

    Contrary to Syria, which received this system from Russia without having to pay a cent, Romania, a Nato member state, has bought 7 US Patriot anti air batteries, 3.6 billion euro….. without the system of automatization of management. If war breaks out, hundreds of Patriots missiles will be launched against false air targets.

    www.voltairenet.org/article203171.html
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:54 pm

    JohninMK wrote:It looks like the Russian Navy blocking force that surged into the Med is now over as most of the 'extra' ships deployed there are now back in the Black Sea.

    Interesting to see if they go back ahead of any major action in Idlib.

    They will for sure retake it. It's close to Assad's key interests and russian bases. The navy will come back when they start.

    cover an area of 800 km2 (the equivalent of the entire area of France)

    Not really Very Happy
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    BKP

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  BKP on Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:42 am

    cover an area of 800 km2 (the equivalent of the entire area of France)

    Not really Very Happy
    [/quote]

    Lol, ikr? Maybe a typo.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:03 am

    The navy will come back when they start.
    Those ships may be now needed more in the Black Sea to put pressure on Turkey, NATO & its ships there & Ukraine at the same time, covered their NAF, AF & Bastion AshMs. The S-300s & IAD they r setting up will be enough to defend Syria. The Caspian Flotilla ships can use their LACMs again if need be.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:24 am

    Still, it'll be better than nothing! The Chinese installed similar HQ-9s on their SC Sea islands, so they can "train" against them too, flying from Okinawa, Vietnam &/ Taiwan!

    Train would require cooperation from the side you are training with... I doubt they would get that from China or Russia/Syria.

    Getting brand new stealth planes shot down over Syria wont prepare them for getting brand new stealth planes shot down in the South China Seas.

    Looks like the ex Russian stock S-300 currently in Syria are the full fat current Russian version are going to be downgraded to export spec before handover to the Syrians. Just love the headline

    They would not have been allowed to shoot down Israeli aircraft just as the took off from Israeli airfields anyway...

    If that was needed there are Russian S-400 systems there if that was needed...

    The important thing is they are getting an IADS, which transforms all the individual SAM positions into an integrated air defence network that works together in defence... that wont shoot down Russian aircraft or indeed civilian aircraft by accident again... which is the whole purpose of this exercise.

    BTW that article suggests converting the systems to Syrian codes and Syrian language... it really does not prove the missiles will suddenly get shorter ranges...

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    George1

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:27 pm

    Construction of closed shelters for aircraft at Hmeimim airbase

    Satellite photos, dated October 3, 2018, show that active work is underway at the Russian Hmeimim airbase in Syria to build fully closed protected shelters for aircraft on the site of the temporary open caponier shelters from gabions previously erected in 2018. Also at the airfield Hmeimim almost completed the construction of a second runway.



    According to the photographs, at the time of the shooting, Khmeimim included nine Su-24M front-line bombers, four Su-34 front-line bomber and four Su-35S fighter jets, as well as one A-50U anti-aircraft, one anti-submarine Il-38N, one An-30B observation aircraft, four Il-76 military transport aircraft and one An-26 military transport aircraft.





    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3386012.html


    Vann7

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:15 am

    Satellite photos, dated October 3, 2018, show that active work is underway at the Russian Hmeimim airbase in Syria [b] to build fully closed protected shelters for aircraft on the site [/b] of the temporary open caponier shelters from gabions previously erected in 2018. Also at the airfield Hmeimim almost completed the construction of a second runway. wrote:



    A case of better super late than never? Rolling Eyes

    This is one of the things that is very depressing about the Putin government.. How he always under estimate
    his enemies ..and how little care he shows for Russian citizens lives. Why he is building shelters now ?
    and not began to build them when they moved to the base in 2015?  Two Russian serviceman lives could have
    been saved ,when the base was shelled in 2016/2017. This shelters are 3 years late its construction . the entire base for Planes and for personal staff ,should have been sheltered. to protect from at least suicide drones or artillery shells.. Just in case their air defenses miss an interception. This just show how little Russia cares for
    its military fighting in Syria... they lost doctors and nurses too from their military in aleppo because the place they were working had no cover or protection against grenades or shells... it was a tent in plastic that did not stand a chance agains mortar artillery. When you are A responsible Leader ,you take every measure possible to protect
    your military and serviceman.. how could they be there for 3 years without any shelter for their planes and staff
    is the question.. how could Putin or Russian military general staff consider that acceptable when their base was so close to militant terrorist zone armed with kamikazi drones and Israel was bombing close to their bases. All those bases  should be strong enough to sustain at least heavy artillery and regular cruise missiles attacks or drone attacks in case of a direct hit. Even Syrian military bases even have some kind of shelter , that minimize the damages their planes takes , unless a direct hit..

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:58 am

    Not really Very Happy

    800 square kms is 400km by 2km... the S-300 has radars that can detect targets 300km away... in a complete circle around the radar... so a circle 600km across, whose internal area is calculated with the formula Pi R squared... so.. 300 x 300 times Pi = so 300 squared is 90,000km times Pi, which makes it about 282 thousand square kms...


    A case of better super late than never?

    A roof for an aircraft shelter is for comfort only... most wont stop an artillery round, but they do stop the sun and dust and wind, which makes working on the aircraft more comfortable...

    To protect the aircraft from attack decent walls are enough.

    Roof structures suggest they will be there for a long time.

    Vann7

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:46 am



    SYRIAN WAR REPORT – OCTOBER 22, 2018: RUSSIAN FORCES ELIMINATED 87,500 TERRORISTS DURING SYRIA OPERATION

    https://southfront.org/syrian-war-report-october-22-2018-russian-forces-eliminated-87500-terrorists-during-syria-operation/


    Nice number of terrorist..cleared.


    Russian media ..warning its people of the big potential of a major war..
    Once Trump start deploying in mass scale missiles at Russia borders.

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    Isos

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:06 am

    Video from su-30 cokpit landing in Syria.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/warsmonitoring/status/1054396170045476864


    Su-35 monitoring f-15 being refueled by kc-10 with OLS in Syria.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/warsmonitoring/status/1052509556138496000
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    medo

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  medo on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:A roof for an aircraft shelter is for comfort only... most wont stop an artillery round, but they do stop the sun and dust and wind, which makes working on the aircraft more comfortable...

    To protect the aircraft from attack decent walls are enough.

    Roof structures suggest they will be there for a long time.

    True. Russians still build and upgrade Hmeimim airbase, so it will be RuAF base for decades. If I'm not wrong, they sign a contract for 50 years for Hmeimim airbase. Building roofs for aircraft is more a sign for after war operations. For now they make roof for 18 planes, maybe they will do more, when these will be finnished. More important will be two operational runways.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 pm

    In terms of roofs etc the ones we have seen in syria already of syrian airforce could likely protect against a handful of mortars suicide drones grenades dropped by drones a light artillery. But would not protect against a heavy barrage of 120mm /122/130/152mm but would against what we have seen used by rebels in relation to suicide drones. I would say looking at the shelters and from uk versions I've seen they vary between 24-36 inches of reinforced concrete. That is what I would imagine that will be building as well and not just canvas/pladtic/metal sheet. As I've seen on civilian hangars
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:25 am

    I would expect in Syria even a sheet of canvas would give relief from the sun, but if they are genuinely solid concrete and dirt topped, then they would offer very good protection against anything except a direct hit with an aircraft delivered bomb, but it is the side protection that is critical... to stop damage effecting all the aircraft at once... 10 aircraft sitting in the open could all get shrapnel damage from one mortar shell, but with side berms at most you will damage one aircraft with each weapon... putting a roof on doesn't change that all that much except for light artillery where it might prevent any damage at all.

    The point I am trying to make is that a roof is expensive and not necessary for a temporary forward airstrip, but if you are planning to stay it will make aircraft support much more comfortable and the aircraft safer...
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:57 pm

    They found one and guess what, it is apparently within 1300 metres of the second RuAF S-400. No doubt sharing the Pantsir protection.

    Wonder if it will have its own radar there, if not wonder where they will site it?







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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #13

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:32 pm


    Yup like I said, Syrian S-300 in name only but launch button is in the hands of 555th back in Khmeim.

    Syrians are physically there just for deniability, after all it would be needlessly dramatic if Russia were to officially shoot down Israeli aircraft.

    But this way they can go to town in IAF and say that the deed was done by Syria, a country that has been at war with Israel for decades as Israelis are so fond of pointing out Cool


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