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    Syrian War: News #18

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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Please can we keep the discussion of Russian aid to Syria in the correct thread? This thread is supposed to be about what the Syrians are doing.

    The supply by Russia of the(se) S-300 seem to meet the description of the other Syria thread.

    Garry, is it possible to move these few posts over there?

    S-300 going to syria is for this thread as its gonna be a syrian system opposed to israeli fighters that support terrorist. It's not russian bringing their own s-300 to protect their base.

    OK I believe you, its going to be a SyAF system operated by the Syrians who are already trained! That means a reduced spec export system in the most highly visible installation anywhere. Do you really think the Russians will do that? Too much depends on it downstream.

    I'd put very good money on this being a maximum spec system operated by Russians for the foreseeable future, surrounded by lots of Syrians pretending that it is theirs.

    of course russian are gonna operate it but officialy they said they will give them to SAA.

    If they have said we bring russian s-300 to protect russian bases then we would talk on the other thread.

    But those s-300 are there to protect SAA so it could also be used against US coalition in case of another strike. That's why we should talk about it in this thread.

    Anyway it's the probleme of moderators. If they want to move it in the other thread they can.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:25 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:We'll see for how long this holds before the Israeli's start striking again using some other routes and tactics. I mean striking through Jordan and Iraq isn't out of the picture here...

    IAF will surely be forced to recur to some very "creative" one time strategy -likely some other attack from the northern sector actually controled by Coalition aircraft - but in the middle term IAF will be almost completely paralyzed ,in the area covered by them, by the introduction of C-300, even more if a centralized air defense command and control structure will be inducted togheter as said by Сергей Шойгу.




    In mine opinion IAF will attempt to attack in any way the shipment before it will be rendered operational , after that the unique solution will be a very very risky special force operation deep in the Syrian territory with the aid of some well paid traitor.

    Someone here image some phantastic operation of IAF that would in some way destroy C-300 batteries ,forgetting that in those latests years IAF failed to destroy any battery of the immeasurable more vulnerable C-200 in spite of dozen and dozen of attempts and that in ordere to achieve that was sufficient to provide to Syrian AD no more than widely outdated passive/active anti-PGM countermeasures phased out in our Army since more than a decade.

    If C-300 batteries will be bring and operationalized in Syria ,them will remain likely active for decades on that territory as all the other SAM systems now in use in Syria with the difference that IAF will lose a big part of its potential ,even more than what happened in the last two years with theirs effective expulsion from Syrian airspace.
    As said previously the unique exception will be a sabotage operation with the aid of some mole in Syrian Army.

    Obviously if that route of "glove off" must be fully followed, it must be provided to Syrian Forces also high performance long range missiles -anyhow within limits established by MTCR- such as Искандер-Э and advanced Бастион ,capable if necessary to destroy IAF aircraft also in Israeli ground without allowing redeployment ,so to force IAF to conduct "rushed" operations against those elusive missile launchers in Syrian territory to avoid to be slowly reduced to the impotence ,leadign to even more crippling losses by part of Syrian air defense; those two elements are highly synergistic.

    Obviously that would radically change the existing balance and equilibrium of forces in the region.




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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:03 pm

    I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version. If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:18 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version.  If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.  

    They are sending command posts with them to connect them with russian s-400. So we can expect the russian used as detection radars while syrian s-300 waiting radars turned off and ambushing f-16 at the last moment.

    Like said before they will be operaed by russian so if they kill more russian Putin will have to send missiles in israel.

    Even this decision seems to pisses off the russian army which clearly wants a revange.
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    Airbornewolf

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Airbornewolf on Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version.  If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.  

    i remember a picture of an destroyed Pantsir a while ago. Israel was also so happy it destroyed one...forgetting to note the pantsir expended all of its ammunition shooting at who knows how many target's before it's destruction in the picture. It was one truck with an cabin on top of it that contained the weapon system. i find it rather sad they had to take a magnifying glass and show the world they destroyed ONE pantsir.

    This kind of reaction says more about how they fear the weapon itself than anything about how the weapon peforms in the field.

    It is still a warzone, where always things happen very chaotically and things get destroyed and people killed. No war machine how good it may be, can not go trough a warzone without ever taking a hit.

    Personally speaking tough, from my experience with NATO AA assets and i really do not mean to be "fanboy" in this post. but NATO Weapon manufacturer's have no counterparts that resemble's system's like the Pantsir, TOR, or S-300/400. that give their mobility, weapon range and autonomous operation for example. just some very tacticool concept stuff that never makes it off the drawing board. And any SPAA systems that DID work where sold by the millitary's and production was discontinued a long time ago. So customer's will still visit Russia's store first before exploring other options.

    Also operating in an battlefield where you are being actively subjugated to EW, where the ground is full of other AA systems and you are looking there for that S-300 battery is any pilot's idea of an suicide mission. A ground operation is not better, with the before mentioned EW and the fact it is going to be one of the most heavily secured asset's in the syrian AA defense judging by the tactical advantage it gives over other AA systems.

    We will see how events go in the future. But it could be very well the other way around too of course, where suddenly one morning you open the news and read several smoking aircraft pieces where found over Syria. Perhaps an piece of F-35?. im sure that would not hurt the marketing in anyway.









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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:08 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version.  If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.  

    Only comment I have seen anywhere is S-300PMU-2
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:28 pm

    well if they do ship one i wish it will have enough coverage. The Damascus region and most of Syrian cities under government control, seems to have natural mountainous barrier. Those will serve well to hide low altitude target. The remedy would be 40V6MD which could bring the horizon to 317 km (assume target altitude is 5000 m).
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:32 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version.  If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.  

    Only comment I have seen anywhere is S-300PMU-2

    I have seen the S-300s deployed in Iran, and they seem to have the 92N6E Grave Stone and the 96L6E CHEESE BOARD, so they're practically S-400s with less range.

    This would explain why Israel's so paranoid about their deployment.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:09 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    IAF will surely be forced to recur to some very "creative" one time strategy -likely some other attack from the northern sector actually controled by Coalition aircraft - but in the middle term IAF will be almost completely paralyzed ,in the area covered by them, by the introduction of C-300, even more if a centralized air defense command and control structure will be inducted togheter as said by Сергей Шойгу.


    Or saturate it.

    Im more concern on where this system will be deployed, mainly to maximize coverage. as alot of Syrian territory are mountainous. Mezzeh for one example. This bring difficulty in air defense because the mountain present direct obstruction to the Radar and transporting the system might pose challenge as potential site might not have adequate road.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:49 am

    Please can we keep the discussion of Russian aid to Syria in the correct thread? This thread is supposed to be about what the Syrians are doing.

    The supply by Russia of the(se) S-300 seem to meet the description of the other Syria thread.

    Garry, is it possible to move these few posts over there?

    These will be Syrian air defence force missiles and systems, so I think it is relevant to the thread topic.

    This could backfire.
    If Syrians fuck up again (the IL-20 downing is partly a Syrian fuck up), Israel could be bragging about destroying S-300s.

    The Syrians didn't fuck up.

    They detected four Israeli F-16s and fired a missile. Those F-16s changed height to match the nearby Il-22 and the targeted F-16 flew behind the Il-22 so the missile locked onto the larger easier to track target. The SA-5 is for shooting down bombers, so a larger RCS target is more attractive.

    The Syrians didn't fuck up... the Israelis used the Il-22 as a shield to save a fighter aircraft he could have ejected from and no one had to die...

    I am sure his fellow pilots were impressed with his cunning, but probably less so now.

    So what you're saying is older missiles sa-3, sa-8 etc are no longer made but shitloads were made and in storage.

    I would say most of the older models are out of production for a long time now, but Russia still offers upgrades and maintenance to old models for countries that still have stocks of them.

    Batteries and chemicals can break down and fail so some parts need replacement on a regular basis. Rocket propellant does not remain fresh and efficient forever, especially depending on the storage conditions.

    Obviously syria isn't the only country using older soviet systems so Russia would be a supplier for these missiles to other countries as well. Countries do test/train their AD. And it also depends how they are stored. I wasn't sure if Belarus had the ability to produce Sa-3 or not.

    Some missiles were made in different places within the Soviet Union... not everything came from Russia, and even missiles made in the RF will have had components made in other republics.

    Of course most former Soviet states want to make money, so most will offer to service old ex Soviet gear... very much buyer beware of course...

    But S-300 is obviously a better choice. Old stocks of soviet missiles can't last for ever and like u said many types had been used for targets.

    Most were made in enormous numbers... including the S-300 because there was no expensive ARH in the nose so the missiles themselves were not hugely expensive.... not that cost mattered that much.

    No system is perfect. And every system can be overcome. And Russia is now using S-400. The fact remains that the west don't like countries having
    S-300 and they still see it as a serious threat. And any potential buyer of S-300 will know that it's better than what they currently have.

    The important thing is the IADS that supports the S-300 is being supplied so IFF systems are go... which will make Russian aircraft of all types much safer from friendly fire.

    Sorry i had to.

    Ironic really, because the last friendly fire incident that got the Israelis in the shit killed over 50 American sailors and injured about 150 more... but that would be in bad taste so you wont see that cartoon...

    I'd put very good money on this being a maximum spec system operated by Russians for the foreseeable future, surrounded by lots of Syrians pretending that it is theirs.

    Why?

    Do you think Syrians are too stupid to operate an IADS they have been trained to use?

    Of course their might be a few Russian supervisors, and there will likely be linked communication with the Russian systems in Syria, but why would it need all Russian operators?

    Are there Russian operators in Iran operating their new S-300 systems too?

    How about other S-300 operators?

    I wonder if we are shipping an old S-300 or the most updated version. If Israel destroys a new one it will be a bad day for our marketing department.

    Russia wont be turning off their systems and there should be enough overlap and communication so if threats approach Syrian S-300s that Russian missiles could be the cavalry at the last second if needed... or at least to punish anything that does hit a Syrian S-300 battery or command post.

    These systems can hit targets taking off in Israel... I really don't think they will want to be poking that hornets nest.

    Most likely they will be hoping the F-35 works as claimed... it was supposed to be the tool to defeat the S-300 system.... which was the reason for the S-400... well both are present...

    This bring difficulty in air defense because the mountain present direct obstruction to the Radar and transporting the system might pose challenge as apotential site might not have adequate road.

    Landing in theatre with the road mobile system and drive to where it is needed... it can be operational within 5-10 minutes of stopping somewhere... Pantsirs of the current type can fire while moving to defend the column...

    Remember these S-300 missiles are not on their own... the new IADS command and control equipment will tie these new systems with existing systems and link that to the Russian system... and no doubt will also include links to Russian air craft... A-50 et al.
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:11 pm

    They want to totally modernize Syrian AD. We can expect some pantsir, buk and tunguska as well.


    ELINT News
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    1h
    #UPDATE: Russian newspaper reportedly claims 2 S-300 batteries to be deployed in Syria from Russia in the next 2 weeks, they will be deployed on the coast (Latakia) and later up to 8 batteries to be deployed on the border with Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq -
    @smmsyria
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:36 pm

    Isos wrote:They want to totally modernize Syrian AD. We can expect some pantsir, buk and tunguska as well.


    ELINT News
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    ·
    1h
    #UPDATE: Russian newspaper reportedly claims 2 S-300 batteries to be deployed in Syria from Russia in the next 2 weeks, they will be deployed on the coast (Latakia) and later up to 8 batteries to be deployed on the border with Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq -
    @smmsyria

    It doesn't seem like something that significant, but it's a hell of an upgrade nonetheless.
    Those vintage S-200s are just way to to Risky to have around, the old girl needs to be retired.

    The S-300s would be the obvious replacement, hopefully the Russians will beat into the heads of Syrian officers to not deploy them without first securing the air-space with SHORADs.

    The TOR system in particular would be a great edition, the Pantsirs are great, but they should be deployed elsewhere, while TORs can handle the mountainous regions where missiles always fly low, although the Pantsirs auto-cannons are also very good to engage target in those areas.

    Russia should also send more Mig-29Ms, i know the Syrian air-force isn't that reliable, but in the end, they need to get back control of their air-space.
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:29 pm

    the Syrian air-force isn't that reliable, but in the end, they need to get back control of their air-space.

    They don't use the mig-29 they have. Those are already upgraded to carry r-77 and 0 interception of israeli fighters by them.

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:00 pm

    hahaha..  Interesting video about Syria..some months old but still good ,
    . that got slipped in Liberal war monger media , One of the speakers told
    interesting Truth about Syria , that the Liberal media hated to listen..



    About the subject..

    An effective Air Defense is one that have zero tolerance to enemy nations ,attacking you.. If any country
    allows a nation to continue trying and trying bombing you ,and worse their planes to get close ,then you
    are allowing the enemy to become improve their tactics against you..

    In an ideal Scenario.. S-300s will have to be protected by rings of short air defenses AND
    with a strong Airforce too.. to punish the hostile military attacking your nation..  So to just sit
    down and intercept with S-300s ,and intercept and nothing else.. just defense.. is not going to protect
    well Syria.. A policy of Returning Fire at Israel whenever they attack Syria will the final Ultimate step
    for stopping them..

    But enforcing a noflyzone and a no shoot zone is very very expensive..
    Because Russia will have to send at least 50-60 combat planes ,to punish Israel airforce or
    Israel military whenever they attack.  So based on Russia new rules of engagement.. the only thing
    they will get is to stop Israel precision by forcing them to attack Syrai from too far distances......so they miss their targets .. but still they can launch waves of missiles at random targets in Syria just to annoy Russia.

    So people that thinks  one S-300 brigade will be enough to protect Syria or maybe S-400s or maybe S-500 and will shield completely Syria from attacks will be for a major dissapointment . Only a policy of shoot back at Israel ,if they attack any part of Syria ,can stop their hostilities.. Israel will only stop its war against Syria ,when they start losing many many planes and being shot down as soon they take off from their bases.. and perhaps if Russia give
    an ultimatum to Israel ,that will use Iskanders against their bases if continue attacking Syria.

    But is not all bad news.. Because if Russia can do what claims it can do. disrupt Israel airforce electronics and radars.. then effectively Russia couold blind Israel airforce from attacking Syria.. and so this will be terrible for
    the tactics of Israel ..IF Russia could do that.. To Interrupt or Jam Israel radars. that will be awesome.. If Russia can do it.. and really embarrassing for Israel.. Because without radars.. how can they fight from distance?
    If Russia can JAM Israel awacs.. and Radars in ground.. then we are talking about a total embarrassment of the Israel military... because without radars.. your air defenses are effectively disable.. perhaps passive radars will work ,but only for short ranges.. If Russia can jam/blind Israel combat planes radars.. then it can do it.. to NATO too.. if it can do it to Ground Radars of Israel /NATO.. then Russia will totally own ,in a fight against them.. you can't fight a modern war if radars blind...communications blocked..and with electronics jammed. not possible.. Israel will have to fight like Palestinians, with stones.. if Russia could neutralize all their electronics ..

    Something like that will make NATO return to the drawing board ,and delay for at least a decade ,any provocation against Russia. but i don't think Russia electronic warfare is that strong.. not even close.. maybe combat planes
    could be jammed at best.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:09 am

    It doesn't seem like something that significant, but it's a hell of an upgrade nonetheless.

    They don't lose their existing BUK and Pantsir air defence systems... in fact they likely keep using everything, but with a fully integrated AD system plus some S-300s into the mix.

    It means full IFF, and a much fuller picture of what is happening in their airspace and the airspace around Syria...

    Those vintage S-200s are just way to to Risky to have around, the old girl needs to be retired.

    Well it shot down this Russian aircraft... and a while back it shot down a Yak-40 I think with 70+ Israeli tourists on it (a wayward Ukrainian S-200 found a high RCS target during a military exercise and hit it...), but it is still a useful weapon for certain targets...

    The IADS will make it much safer because they will have a better idea of what is where and who it is...

    The S-300s would be the obvious replacement, hopefully the Russians will beat into the heads of Syrian officers to not deploy them without first securing the air-space with SHORADs.

    Nah... just drop them outside the transport planes and say these are yours... use them any way you like...

    I would say the current success in the Syrian military on the battlefield is largely because they realise the Russians know what they are doing and that it is OK to follow instructions...

    The TOR system in particular would be a great edition, the Pantsirs are great, but they should be deployed elsewhere, while TORs can handle the mountainous regions where missiles always fly low, although the Pantsirs auto-cannons are also very good to engage target in those areas.

    TOR systems are expensive... the vehicles themselves are expensive but very very capable... I suspect the Syrians will simply assign the Pantsir systems they currently operate to the mission...

    Whatever they were protecting before probably justifies putting S-300 there too for mutual defence.

    Russia should also send more Mig-29Ms, i know the Syrian air-force isn't that reliable, but in the end, they need to get back control of their air-space.

    Indeed... it is time for Syrians to step up and be able to protect their own airspace...

    They don't use the mig-29 they have. Those are already upgraded to carry r-77 and 0 interception of israeli fighters by them.

    To be fair the Israelis have not really flown into Syrian airspace... they either launch standoff weapons over the border or enter US held airspace and pretend to be American aircraft.

    they will get is to stop Israel precision by forcing them to attack Syrai from too far distances......so they miss their targets .. but still they can launch waves of missiles at random targets in Syria just to annoy Russia.

    With the S-300 and the new IADS system Syrian AD forces will see aircraft taking off in Israel... and would be able to shoot down aircraft just after taking off if they wanted to, but more importantly they will be able to see standoff weapons at much greater ranges... the cheapest option would be to vector a fighter aircraft towards the incoming weapon or UAV and intercept it with R-73 missiles... if Israeli aircraft challenge the Syrian fighter then they can launch S-300s at them... which wont change targets to hit the bigger plane...

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:04 am

    @GarryB

    Actually in the latest attack on Latakkia The ZioNAZI airforce invaded Syria airspace..and Syrian waters , their glide bombs have short range..and they try to fly as close as possible to the target they want to bomb.
    This is why Russia military have told ,will close for Israel and NATO the Syrian coast and waters.. and latakkia
    airspace.. they told if any plane that enters illegally without permission ,..the planes  will be shut down without warning.. for the proximity with the Russian bases.
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:34 am

    To be fair the Israelis have not really flown into Syrian airspace... they either launch standoff weapons over the border or enter US held airspace and pretend to be American aircraft.

    And ? They should just let do that because they are not really in syrian airspace ?

    Most of the time they could see them on IRST or with eyes if they dare to send mig. The f-16 were like 50km from the coast and one of them came to 30km. If there was a mig armed with r-77 he could have fire on them to make them give up the mission.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:42 am

    Vann7 wrote:@GarryB

    Actually in the latest attack on Latakkia The ZioNAZI airforce invaded Syria airspace..and Syrian waters , their glide bombs have short range..and they try to fly as close as possible to the target they want to bomb.
    This is why Russia military have told ,will close for Israel and NATO the Syrian coast and waters.. and latakkia
    airspace.. they told if any plane that enters illegally without permission ,..the planes  will be shut down without warning.. for the proximity with the Russian bases.


    Russia has threatened to shoot down aircraft before but never did so, we can believe it when they actually do it words are cheap, action is real
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    medo

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:To be fair the Israelis have not really flown into Syrian airspace... they either launch standoff weapons over the border or enter US held airspace and pretend to be American aircraft.

    They did and 1 F-16I was shot down by Pechora-2M missile.

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:16 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:@GarryB

    Actually in the latest attack on Latakkia The ZioNAZI airforce invaded Syria airspace..and Syrian waters , their glide bombs have short range..and they try to fly as close as possible to the target they want to bomb.
    This is why Russia military have told ,will close for Israel and NATO the Syrian coast and waters.. and latakkia
    airspace.. they told if any plane that enters illegally without permission ,..the planes  will be shut down without warning.. for the proximity with the Russian bases.


    Russia has threatened to shoot down aircraft before but never did so, we can believe it when they actually do it words are cheap, action is real

    Rules of engagement now are different.. Russian military and not Putin is in control of their security..aside
    Syria will be aiming at any plane from Israel that get close with an S-300 missile.. so the rules are different.
    If you believe Russia will allow Israel to continue hostilities to  their military security after they ambushed a Military plane you are mistaken..  The risk is very high ,very huge , if Putin allow Israel to kill more Russian soldiers , this will cause a major rebelion from the military against Putin if don't allow to defend them.. Putin not even received Netanyahu.. No shake of hands with Israel now.. Russia military is now in control of their forces security , and the lines have been drawn.. Any plane who enters again in Latakkia or tartus ,will be shot down without warning.. and a no fly zone over Syrian waters.. and Russian airforce can position behind Israel planes with a missile locking their planes.. so if they launch a missile near Russian military bases ,their planes will get shot down.. this is new policy. On top that Russia will now be jamming ,distrupting Israel radars and electronics.. so If Russian electronics can do that ,they will be blinded.. Israel will have to shoot from far distances to attack Syria.. But not enough to be away from S-300s range. Russian serviceman will be controlling those S-300s of Syria ,aiming at those Israel jets..
    In 2-3 weeks , you will see ,how a different rules of combat from RUssia will impact Israel operations.. in a very negative way. They will feel the pressure and very unsafe attacking Syria.. and will get planes shot down.. you will see..


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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:26 pm

    medo wrote:
    GarryB wrote:To be fair the Israelis have not really flown into Syrian airspace... they either launch standoff weapons over the border or enter US held airspace and pretend to be American aircraft.

    They did and 1 F-16I was shot down by Pechora-2M missile.

    Israel have been hit several times their planes by S-200s.. not just 1..

    they even damaged an F-35..but Israel military claimed was damaged by "birds".

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    ultimatewarrior

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  ultimatewarrior on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:08 pm

    The jamming means GPS guided Small Diameter Bomb which has 100+ km range can't be used. This forces F-16 to use laser guided bomb at close range no more than 10 or 20 km, making them vulnerable to SAM. I wouldn't be surprised if F-16 pilots get captured if they adventure again.

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:00 pm

    Isos wrote:
    the Syrian air-force isn't that reliable, but in the end, they need to get back control of their air-space.

    They don't use the mig-29 they have. Those are already upgraded to carry r-77 and 0 interception of israeli fighters by them.

    and thats because why?

    Because of Russia Rules of Engagement don't allowed Syria to use their airforce to go dogfight with Israel planes..

    If You saw the video of the Military General staff of Russia... when their IL-20 incident..
    you will notice how peacefully 4 F-16s fly enter in Latakkia airspace, bomb near Russia military base ,
    Leave , and move to the north closer to Russian military base.. (like calling the attention of Russians military.. hey look we are here and bombed your ally).. then turn around and when they see the Russian plane.. they move behind it.. to get the Syrian missile hit the Russian plane.. basically an ambush. and in all that time . about 10 minutes.. not a single missile was fired by Russia at israel.. So you could say Does that means S-400s neither work?  They don't work..when they are not used..  because of Rules of Engagement prohibit Russians to fire at israel planes ,they did not shot down Israeli planes..

    But now Russian rules are different.. israel fly planes again over Latakkia or Syrian waters will get shotdown.. and
    on top of that Russia will be jamming Israel planes ,navigation and blind their radars ,something they did not did before.. and SYria will have full freedom to shoot at Israeli planes whenever they shoot at Syria..

    SO things will be different.. because Russia or Syria will return fire and have declared no fly zones at LATAKKIA and Syrian Coast..  and Russia will be encouraging Syria to shot down Israeli planes on Sight.. as soon the show intentions to fly towards Syria . So will not be surprising if Syria shoot at israel planes 100km away from Syria..

    Is going to end very bad.. because if Israel lose 1 or 2 planes.. they will send a mass wave of missiles to Syria
    with a big airforce and Syria will be able to shoot dozens of their planes.. So it could get out of control ...and Israel use nukes against Syria.. what will make Russia to retaliate with even more powerful ones..

    If the Mig-29s are used. then it can shot down israel planes too... from farther distances than S-300..and  complicate even more Israel operations..   Mi-29s armed with the latest air to air missiles ,is like flying S-300s.
    and not only can interrupt Israel airforce.. because if you fire a missile at them.. they will need to do evasion maneuvers.. to escape the missile. .effectively interrupting their attack..
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    GarryB

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:24 am

    And ? They should just let do that because they are not really in syrian airspace ?

    No.

    What I was trying to say was that the reason they had no kills was because the Israelis don't come into Syrian airspace for their attacks so the Syrian aircraft never really get a chance to intercept or engage.

    Most of the time they could see them on IRST or with eyes if they dare to send mig. The f-16 were like 50km from the coast and one of them came to 30km. If there was a mig armed with r-77 he could have fire on them to make them give up the mission.

    An IADS means they will get better information quickly enough to actually do something about it... I rather suspect they had the option of sending MiGs to intercept, but clearly decided to launch SAMs to deal with the threat... the Israeli attack had already occurred so nothing they could do could change that... and losing a fighter aircraft would just add insult to injury...

    Russia has threatened to shoot down aircraft before but never did so, we can believe it when they actually do it words are cheap, action is real

    Turkey threatened to shoot down Russian aircraft quite a bit too, and I don't think the Russians took them seriously enough.

    You are not now betting that the Russians wont shoot down aircraft... you are betting the Syrians wont...

    They did and 1 F-16I was shot down by Pechora-2M missile.

    Which forced them to start using more standoff tactics...

    Now with new SAMs and IADS and other systems... the question is:

    Will they stop attacks?

    Keep the attacks the same and expect fewer targets getting hit?

    Step up attacks in the hope that targets can be hit by using more ordinance?

    Or will they directly attack the IADS system with an overwhelming number of aircraft and munitions in the hope of defeating it so they continue as they were previously?

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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Or will they directly attack the IADS system with an overwhelming number of aircraft and munitions in the hope of defeating it so they continue as they were previously?

    Given that, at least to start with, it is highly likely that there will be RuAF liaison officers stationed with the S-300 units an attack on the S-300 would be really high risk for the Israelis. There must be a good chance that they have been told at the highest levels, in words of one syllable, exactly what will happen if another Russian is killed as a result of Israeli action.

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    Re: Syrian War: News #18

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