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    Syrian Civil War: News #17

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:01 am

    Some interesting info about the the Syrian air-defense deployment.


    Vann7

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:30 am

    Mindless_drone wrote:

    How do you jam TERCOM? That’s another ridiculous propaganda claim by Russia. You can jam the GPS guidance but that just makes them a little less accurate. Tomohawk still has like 10 M cep with just TERCOM.

    [/b]

    The attack of the Pentagon ,was done to please the Israel and Saudi Lobbies.. if Russia start making jokes about
    the failure of US attack ,then they will demand more .. understand? So is reality what matters.. and Pentagon
    will never admit a defeat.. So it does not matter what Russia say.. they will say whatever thing they want...that
    better defend their interest..

    About Tercom..

    Tercom needs correction by GPS.. technology alone will not work... well.. specially when it comes from long distances..
    but even with Tercom ,Russia can disable those missiles easily. .Remember that NATO missiles are super slow speed..
    and even Stela soviet missiles shot down them.. Russia in fact have manpads specially designed to shotdown
    NATO subsonic cruise missiles..

    Other things you ignore..
    1)Russia electronic warfare also not only jam GPS.. but also FRY electronics..
       it can turn off the missiles.. as simple as that. But don't think Russia will be using that in Syria
       to not reveal too much.  If you can generate a power electromagentic field,,it will break the electrical current..
      like an EMP attack.. and the missile will fall way earlier..

    2) you also ignore decoys... Decoys can confuse a missile into the target it needs to destroy.. and make it explode
    in the wrong place..
    3)Wind and friction will deviate the missile from its trajectory ,so needs corrections by GPS..
    4)The biggest issue with NATO missiles is their slow speed.. makes them vulnerable to any world war 2 anti air artillery
    if you know before hand the trajectory it will fly..
    5) Russian and Syrian combat planes can shot down Cruise missiles.. too. with small air to air missiles ,there is evidence in Syria they did it with a few ones as practice.. you simply launch a heat seeking small missiles behind a Tomahawk and bye bye . Russia military trains to intercept cruise missiles with combat planes.. is not rocket science..
    NATO cruise missiles flight in a linear predictable path.. and any heat seeking missile will shot it down.

    This is why NATO needs to fire hundreds of them.. to overwhelm air defenses..
    and it seems that Syria can handle 100 cruise missiles quite well..    to increase the interception probability
    you need enough air defenses per area protected. and just remember neither S-300 or S-400 were used.

    this is the major problem with all NATO cruise missiles is very slow..and easy to intercept IF..you have good Airbone
    Radars ,fully monitoring their flight path..

    take a look an F-18 chasing a Tomahawk Missile



    If Russia or Syria had permission to fly over Jordan territory.. then all missiles that came from that direction
    can be shot down by combat jets even before they reach Syria.  Cool

    US cruise missiles are only useful against third world nations. like IRAQ or Lybia. But in any nation with descent air defenses and in descent numbers most will be shot down.. If Syria had twice the number of Pantsirs.. lets say instead of 50 , they had 100.. it could shot down 100% of those missiles. This is why NATO is scared at Russia Super Sonic Cruise missiles and Hypersonic ones..those are not easy.. fly to fast.. from 5x times to 10x times the speed of NATO Cruise missiles.. Hypersonics missiles move so fast.. that radars can't pick their targeting solution.. and if the missile move in non linear way.. and do zig zag even more harder.

    Now Russia have laser defenses..that will guarantee a 100% interception all the time ,and without human interference. at all.unless you fire 50 at near same time against a same target..from different directions ,hypersonic. are the hardest ones to intercept.. are hard to do it even for Russia. Russia trains interception of several hundreds up to  a thousand of Cruise missiles ,waves of them from Europe.. apparently but forgot the source.
    So most NATO cruise missiles were intercepted/defeated. from 80% to 90% if you count the missing ones  that exploded off course.. in the sand. is non sense that NATO will not target Assad Military airports. and will only focus in civilian buildings. they dont report about military bases destroyed ,because they have none to report. only empty buildings and empty storages were hit , that were not important..

    But the real deal will be heavy Electronic warfare.. it can do magic.. and only Russia military bases are covered
    by this new form of warfare. The Russian defense industry is working with Electronic gun to shut down american satellites in space.. Cool  but also can be used to show down combat planes with an electronic attack.. i don't think Russia is using any of that in syria ,so to not reveal all they can do.. and if a world war 3 start ,have surprises. for NATO..  Cool

    Russia electronic warfare,. is not only GPS jamming.. but much more..
    it can kill people too , a pilot inside a combat plane if fired with an electronic attack. .
    so can shut down planes without a missile and without a laser beam.. just with radio electric attack.



    Only Russia military bases.. and their modern combat planes do use some electronic warfare.




    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:57 am; edited 3 times in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:34 am

    Cannot jam missiles?.

    Da hell dude? and people wonder why I mock armchair experts this is why.

    If it's a machine it can be hacked, if it's a radar or guidance system it can be jammed.

    There is no such thing has an unjammable missile, it all depends if you have the tech and skill to do so.

    There are many weapons to Jam cruise missiles, the fact you made what is just most idiotic statement I have seen all month shows you REALLY don't know wtf you are talking about.

    With that statement, all you have assured is no one will take you seriously and honestly after a statement like that yeah they are right.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:54 am

    kvs wrote:@ Mindless_drone

    Ah the false equivalence spew.  

    Just stop it with your moronic both sides are lying BS.   One side (the USA) is claiming an outright absurdity of 0% misses even
    though the Tomahawks have an admitted 10-15% fail rate from the 1999 NATO gang rape of Serbia.    The other side provides
    very realistic numbers based on the mix of hardware including Russia's deployed systems which did not shoot anything but
    fed Syrian forces finely detailed tracking data.    The Pantsir was designed to take out slow speed targets like the Tomahawk.
    To claim that no Russian system could ever be 100% effective against this ancient US missile is total absurdity.    There is
    no physical limitation from having a 100% hit rate.   The Pantsir missiles have enough accuracy to take out any cruise missile
    if fed the proper real time tracking information.   And cruise missiles can be blown out of the sky with bullet swarm attacks,
    again if they are properly tracked, fly low enough and the system responds fast enough (which it can since the cruise missile
    is not engaged in high speed evasion maneuvers).

    Cruise missiles are only useful if they can avoid detection and that is why they are designed to fly at very low altitudes and hug
    the terrain.  In the case of Syria they have the problem of not enough topography to hide and systems have been built which
    are customized for cruise missile detection and tracking.   Radar technology did not stop evolving during the 1960s.   As demonstrated
    by Serbia in 1999, networking radar units vastly improves tracking information.    All modern Russian systems and upgraded Syrian
    systems are networked.  The same thing that makes cruise missiles able to hide is the same thing that makes them vulnerable attacks
    from the ground: their altitude.    Russia can track NATO missile attacks from their origin points, so it is basically game over for these
    "abuse some defenceless 3rd world country" "wunderwaffen".

    Let's not forget - number of facilities hit vs number of missiles launched. Mixed in, with how many times each facility been hit. Add with evidence of missiles shot down, and you get the picture.

    What we know, is the US side is lying saying all missiles hit. We know this for a fact. Add in the points I mentioned earlier, and it gives indication that the Russians and Syrians are correct. Or at least very close to correct.

    We know one side is lying by proof. Other side we don't know. So I would wager Russian side is correct.

    And anyway, shooting down subsonic missiles isn't hard for systems like Pantsir or Buk. Similar systems from west can do same thing. Don't know the fuss is about.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:43 am

    Israeli missiles target military base allegedly filled with Russian soldiers: unconfirmed


    unable to post link. source al masdar
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 am

    defense systems were recorded as follows:

    Pantsir-S1: 25 missiles fired, 23 hits scored.
    Buk-M2: 29 missiles fired, 24 hits scored.
    Kub: 21 missiles fired, 11 hits scored.
    Strela-10: 5 missiles fired, 3 hits scored.
    Osa: 11 missiles fired, 5 hits scored.
    S-125: 13 missiles fired, 5 hits scored.
    S-200: 8 missiles fired, 0 hits scored.
    The complete ineffectiveness of the S-200 to successfully engage any of the attacking cruise missiles has been put down to the SAM system’s biased design towards intercepting high-altitude aircraft, not low-flying missiles.

    The statistics likely fail to account for Western cruise missiles that were downed or driven off target due to ‘soft-kill’ electronic warfare systems – something which Russian sources will never confirm the use of.

    unable to post link source al masdar
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:01 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:defense systems were recorded as follows:

    Pantsir-S1: 25 missiles fired, 23 hits scored.
    Buk-M2: 29 missiles fired, 24 hits scored.
    Kub: 21 missiles fired, 11 hits scored.
    Strela-10: 5 missiles fired, 3 hits scored.
    Osa: 11 missiles fired, 5 hits scored.
    S-125: 13 missiles fired, 5 hits scored.
    S-200: 8 missiles fired, 0 hits scored.
    The complete ineffectiveness of the S-200 to successfully engage any of the attacking cruise missiles has been put down to the SAM system’s biased design towards intercepting high-altitude aircraft, not low-flying missiles.

    The statistics likely fail to account for Western cruise missiles that were downed or driven off target due to ‘soft-kill’ electronic warfare systems  – something which Russian sources will never confirm the use of.

    unable to post link source al masdar
    Keep up Smile Already posted 244/249.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:29 am

    From an Israeli source. But do these look like military aircraft? More like executive jets to me. Location not given but clearly in a town.

    Amichai Stein
    ‏Verified account @AmichaiStein1
    2h2 hours ago

    #BREAKING: Israeli IDF publishes satellite images of the Iranian air force presence in #Syria (via @IDFSpokesperson)

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:32 am

    Mindless_drone wrote:This is a very prorussian forum.

    Not really surprising given the name... Russia Defence Forum kinda gives it away..
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:37 am

    Agreed BG. You have to question the mental state of someone who gives themselves a name like that.


    Meanwhile, just to boost the relevance of the French Smile I'd bet there was a USAF SEntry up over Iraq/Jordan as well, plus some other bits and bobs.


    Tom Antonov
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    ???????????????????????? airstrikes on Syria:
    The unified air command and control system was provided by French Air Force with two ???????? E-3F Sentry aircrafts.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:39 am

    JohninMK wrote:From an Israeli source. But do these look like military aircraft? More like executive jets to me. Location not given but clearly in a town.

    Ziostani warmongering Chosenites don't need a real reason to do what comes natural to their twisted natures.... It's just an excuse. It could be an Iranian-owned coffee shop and the IAF would still argue to put a missile on it (and the Likudniks would foam at the mouth salivating over the prospect of broken "WMD cups" and dead "terrorist baristas"......
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:51 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Mindless_drone wrote:This is a very prorussian forum.

    Not really surprising given the name...   Russia Defence Forum kinda gives it away..

    Not that much prorussian. Lot of people here are more realistic than pro anything.

    People who are used to be told bs for years and come here could think it is pro russian but in general they just see what other people think and it is not the same as they used to hear in their MSM.
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    Isos

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:55 am

    JohninMK wrote:From an Israeli source. But do these look like military aircraft? More like executive jets to me. Location not given but clearly in a town.

    Amichai Stein
    ‏Verified account @AmichaiStein1
    2h2 hours ago

    #BREAKING: Israeli IDF publishes satellite images of the Iranian air force presence in #Syria (via @IDFSpokesperson)

    [img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da94q0jWsAEjHhO.jpg[g]

    Air force ? No proof. Those things could be civilian planes. And looks more like a plane graveyard.
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    franco

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  franco on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:41 pm

    Seeing reports that there was no Israeli attack last night. It was apparently an Electronic Warfare attack from the Israeli's and possibly the Americans. Set the SAF AD off on a wild goose chase.

    yavar

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  yavar on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:10 pm



    Israel media i24 news Report Iranian forces planning retaliatory attack in response to Israel T4 air base Syria attack

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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:29 pm

    Hello back guys, I would like to chime in with some video evidence.

    Here Russian Klub hitting concrete structure in Syria.

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b04_1506109661

    http://www.presstv.com/DetailFr/2017/09/22/536081/Russian-submarine-attacks-Fateh-alSham-terrorists-in-Syrias-Idlib

    same place hit here.


    Then

    https://twitter.com/bm27_uragan/status/798524802092777473

    Basically, the Klub which is more or less comparable with the TLAM-C would have flattened the lower structure of the Barzeh Technical wing and Barzeh Immunology institute which are here as 4.

    https://twitter.com/vpkivimaki/status/985593498815619072

    So basically the building 4 probably had pancaked within the 2 to 4 first strikes. For the Electro-Mechanical wing which is the fat wing on 1/2 building, the stairs probably helped keeping most of it up after the first salvo. If we have to base ourself on the Russian practice of double tap, then it all becomes clear.

    1/2 on each bearing zone, which means 8 missiles for bigger buildings, 4 for the core research building. 8+8+4= 20 CM's.

    Add 10 more to count for probable interception, 30. It can be interesting to see what the Russians will leak in the future about this, but so far I am convinced that not more than 30 missiles were fired against the HIAST's CSRE.

    Mindless_drone

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Mindless_drone on Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:22 pm

    Not even going to respond to the lunacy posts of super magic nazi Wunderwaffe Russian EW weapons. Take your medicine dude. You literally sound like some of the people on f16.net when they talk about F35, f22, and B2.

    Post proof as to how TERCOM can be jammed. Most cruise missiles use it as their primary navigation system.  No real expert claims that it can be jammed.

    Skill and technology can jam TERCOM?  What specific equipment? What techniques? I’m an objective person and don’t live in the world of make belief, magic, or voodoo.

    3 days ago Syria supposedly diverted a massive cruise missile attack.

    Yesterday they fired sams into the air claiming they shot down 9 missiles. Now it’s a false alarm and they say no rockets were fired at the airbase. Incompetent Syrian AD launched 9 missiles in the air and couldn’t even confirm interceptions but their media went on to say 9 rockets were shot down.

    Sorry but any person being objective about the situation can see through the propaganda.

    I don’t think the US fired 105 missiles. Maybe 30-40. Syria probably got a few and the rest hit empty building like the research center and those shacks in the countryside.


    A lot of you guys are more delusional than the people at f16.net.

    And if Russia isn’t lying, how would posting FlIR footage of intercepts provoke the US into launching 300-500 missiles? If 105 wasn’t enough the pentagon already knows they failed. Why not launch more? Also it doesn’t matter how many assets Russia has in Syria or not. You don’t stop a 300-500 cruise missile barrage with AD. You stop it by attacking the platforms. It’s completely illogical what you are claiming Garryb.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:05 pm

    Mindless_drone wrote:Not even going to respond to the lunacy posts of super magic nazi Wunderwaffe Russian EW weapons. Take your medicine dude. You literally sound like some of the people on f16.net when they talk about F35, f22, and B2.

    A lot of you guys are more delusional than the people at f16.net.

    Perhaps you ought to go back to F16.net if they are less delusional than us.

    If you stay you might like to consider that it is not very good manners to be throwing insults around in your first half dozen posts. That would get you banned on many sites.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Mindless_drone on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:13 pm



    [/quote]
    Perhaps you ought to go back to F16.net if they are less delusional than us.

    If you stay you might like to consider that it is not very good manners to be throwing insults around in your first half dozen posts. That would get you banned on many sites.
    [/quote]

    It’s also bad manner in an objective debate based on logic and evidence to shit on the chess board like a pigeon talking about nonexistent wunderwaffe weapons. It’s an insult to the other persons intelligence.

    I came here for honest debate. Not Russia or America ***** ideation.

    And I am from Russia.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:23 pm

    The burden of proof lays on you then.  Everyone presented the evidence to the claims and gave their reasonings.  Now it's up to you to provide proof as to how Russian MoD is lying.

    Plus this is the internet, so maybe you lie that your in Russia to make it sound like your opinion counts more.  I mean - how do we know? Plus, how does it even validate what you say is correct? I mean, you would be in the dark as much as us.

    You think also the Americans only fired 30 cruise missiles? Even they stated how many they fired. They admitted they fired over 100 cruise missiles in total.

    Talking of delusional.

    Only thing I will admit to is the continuous fake news being spread about each incident. Hence why I wait for official. You know another narrative pushed by US? 300 dead Russians. One that there is zero proof of. But at least we have proof of downed Tomahawks.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  Mindless_drone on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The burden of proof lays on you then.  Everyone presented the evidence to the claims and gave their reasonings.  Now it's up to you to provide proof as to how Russian MoD is lying.

    Plus this is the internet, so maybe you lie that your in Russia to make it sound like your opinion counts more.  I mean - how do we know?

    You think also the Americans only fired 30 cruise missiles? Even they stated how many they fired.

    Talking of delusional.

    What proof has your side presented?


    Here is my evidence.

    -Russia claims the impossible. That a small deployment of pantsir and buks stopped along with legacy sams stopped a massive cruise missile attack.
    -no FLIR footage of intercepts.
    -no radar feeds of airbases being targeted
    -no photos of shot down missiles wreckage photos?
    -no evidence as to how tomahawk/JASSM could be jammed.
    -most amateur video shows nothing definitive. Maybe 2-3 possible intercepts. The rest show unguided sams being fired in a ballistic path.
    -American claimed targets destroyed confirmed with  satellite photos but not enough damage to claim 105 missiles fired. Lack of evidence of shoot downs make me think 30-40 fired. Probably a few downed. Which is why I said both sides are lying about their claims .


    If you  would kindly direct me to proof of downed tomahawks I would greatly appreciate as so far I have not been able to find any photos.


    Last edited by Mindless_drone on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:41 pm

    Mindless_drone wrote:Not even going to respond to the lunacy posts of super magic nazi Wunderwaffe Russian EW weapons. Take your medicine dude. You literally sound like some of the people on f16.net when they talk about F35, f22, and B2.

    Post proof as to how TERCOM can be jammed. Most cruise missiles use it as their primary navigation system.  No real expert claims that it can be jammed.

    Skill and technology can jam TERCOM?  What specific equipment? What techniques? I’m an objective person and don’t live in the world of make belief, magic, or voodoo.

    3 days ago Syria supposedly diverted a massive cruise missile attack.

    Yesterday they fired sams into the air claiming they shot down 9 missiles. Now it’s a false alarm and they say no rockets were fired at the airbase. Incompetent Syrian AD launched 9 missiles in the air and couldn’t even confirm interceptions but their media went on to say 9 rockets were shot down.

    Sorry but any person being objective about the situation can see through the propaganda.

    I don’t think the US fired 105 missiles. Maybe 30-40. Syria probably got a few and the rest hit empty building like the research center and those shacks in the countryside.


    A lot of you guys are more delusional than the people at f16.net.

    And if Russia isn’t lying, how would posting FlIR footage of intercepts provoke the US into launching 300-500 missiles? If 105 wasn’t enough the pentagon already knows they failed. Why not launch more? Also it doesn’t matter how many assets Russia has in Syria or not. You don’t stop a 300-500 cruise missile barrage with AD. You stop it by attacking the platforms. It’s completely illogical what you are claiming Garryb.


    FLIR? Why would Russia would post images it doesn't have? We still don't know what happened yesterday, as often with Syria things are super blurry until declared by a party in the war.
    The funny thing though is that the ones claiming to have fired 105 CM's aren't the Russians, but the Coalition.

    So you have to take it to them.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:45 pm

    Mindless_drone wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The burden of proof lays on you then.  Everyone presented the evidence to the claims and gave their reasonings.  Now it's up to you to provide proof as to how Russian MoD is lying.

    Plus this is the internet, so maybe you lie that your in Russia to make it sound like your opinion counts more.  I mean - how do we know?

    You think also the Americans only fired 30 cruise missiles? Even they stated how many they fired.

    Talking of delusional.

    What proof has your side presented?


    Here is my evidence.

    -Russia claims the impossible. That a small deployment of pantsir and buks stopped along with legacy sams stopped a massive cruise missile attack.
    -no FLIR footage of intercepts.
    -no radar feeds of airbases being targeted
    -no photos of shot down missiles wreckage photos?
    -no evidence as to how tomahawk/JASSM could be jammed.
    -most amateur video shows nothing definitive. Maybe 2-3 possible intercepts. The rest show unguided sams being fired in a ballistic path.
    -American claimed targets destroyed confirmed with  satellite photos but not enough damage to claim 105 missiles fired. Lack of evidence of shoot downs make me think 30-40 fired. Probably a few downed. Which is why I said both sides are lying about their claims .

    It wasn't a massive Cruise Missile attack. If you analyze the Actual deployment, there were 3 axis, on a ground unit parameter with three salvoes.
    A Massive Attack would be all Missiles in the same time grid. The issue again isn't that the Russians are claiming one thing and the US another in the matter of the size of the attack, the numbers are comparable (103/105) but that both sides are telling idiotic stories about interceptions gone rogue and buildings being hit 6 dozen times.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:52 pm

    The rest show unguided sams being fired in a ballistic path.

    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Seriously, i have been hearing that quote everywhere, what utter nonsense.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #17

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:53 pm

    Also none of the missiles were guided through Tercom. They were all TLAM-C or D, which meant that all TLAM's were GPS guided, which was clear from the fact that in Barzeh there was NOT ONE SINGLE STRAY. Not a single one. So yeah, that part about the TERCOM, you might forget it.

    At least One Scalp got about 10-30 m from the POI.

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