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    Talking bollocks thread #2

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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:01 am

    miketheterrible wrote:You mean service system, not distribution.

    Right now that is what Borisov has said is being done - coming up with a strong service structure within Russia (first) for all civil jets of Russian origin.
    Yes! Laughing

    My english... lol!

    That's the best Russia can do...being strong in home market! And later expand step by step. I remember Airbus as a small company, a union of even smaller companies, trying to attack the big companies of USA (Boeing, Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas) at the market with A300.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:28 am

    Isos wrote:Of course they will sabotage Russia and China. Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.

    More schizophrenic BS...why would they need to sabotage (actually it's more like panic attack) if they are so far ahead??...they should be able to out compete easily

    The problem is they're uncompetitive...and they know it!

    Underpriced russian and chinese tech isn't doing better. It isn't doing anything actually. If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    Western products rely on things we can control from a to z. Any problem in those poor countries that produce for us and they make a regime change. Russia wants to play to much USSR style, they get sanctionned. China wants takes the lead in something US sanction them.


    Again, you can't compete so you become a whining, crying baby throwing a tantrum...and your "regime change" is starting to look like really really rusty

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.

    I think your "control" of the ME is looking pretty shaky to put it mildly

    I haven't heard any complaints about the TOS, unlike the "superior" stuff they bought
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:23 am

    They would have a thousabd of them if USSR didn't collapse.

    No, after making less than 200 they realised that even plans for 750 was going to be unaffordable... now they have made 300 F35s they are having the same realisation...

    Turkey is pissed off of not getting the f-35.

    Only because they are paid for, and Turkey makes parts of the wing so if they get cut out of the programme it will cost them money too.

    Compare the numbers of germans tanks crew that died and soviet ones.

    If the British and French had kept fighting the Germans as long as the Soviets did they might have gotten comparable losses, but instead the former ran away and the French gave up.

    The one who separeted the munition from the crew were the americans.

    No they didn't. The Abrams carries rounds next to the driver so any penetrating round has the chance of killing the entire crew.... just like on all other tanks.

    Mig didn't produced it.

    Because the Russian leadership saw stealth as a money pit the Americans had already fallen for...

    Now they are stuck with the mig35 that is just an upgraded mig29. The airforce would more than happy to get a single engine small and light fighter. With the order of 76 su-57 and the other sukhois, its very unlikely they buy more than a handfull of mig-35.

    It is the lower operating costs of the MiG-35 that will make it the more useful purchases of the RuAF in the future...

    Very funny. Russian fanboys are easily trigered when they hear the truth about Russia buying stuff from France. Thermal cameras, HUD, Felin system, engines for their mighty civilian planes (which are bought only because they use french engines) ....

    Russia also bought the Maxim machine gun, but that didn't result in them buying only American designed Machine Guns for the rest of eternity...

    After WWII they bought British Derwent and Nene Jet engines, but they didn't keep buying British engines afterwards either.

    For modern Russia, France is making it compulsory that Russia makes its own stuff due to sanctions.... thanks France, classy as always.

    Hope you enjoy WWII celebrations next year with Britain and Germany and the US... you can pretend the Soviets had nothing to do with it and they were the bad guys all along.

    They want a blue water navy. You don't use a blue water navy to defend your borders.

    They want a blue water navy because there is no such thing as international law any more... if Russia wants access to a world market it needs to be able to access it itself and a blue water navy is the obvious solution.


    You don't send a carrier to test a targeting system.

    You send a carrier when you have never used carrier based aircraft before... the Kuznetsov needs to work as part of the naval team from gathering intel on the target via special forces on the ground and satellite images and UAV footage, to forming plans and executing attacks... and Syria was the ideal testing ground for that.

    They wabted to show the world they can attack far from their home with a carrier and they are back in the game.

    They were already hitting targets with cruise missiles... this was just an opportunity to test some new aircraft (MiGs) and upgraded Sukhois, and to get a system working that they had never used against real targets before because they are not murdering  censored  like the west is mostly made of.

    They failed and lost 50 million worth of aircraft.

    Actually they flew over 1,600 sorties... mostly from land bases but planned from the K, so they didn't fail... and 50 million wouldn't even pay for one US operation there...

    Not really. They want to oppose the US. But Maduro is a failure with or without US intervention. He will be removed one day and people will see russia as the one who helped him. And the support to maduro is very weak, they eveb removed their staff because Maduro doesn't pay the russian companies.

    Blah blah blah, Maduro is democratically elected president of Venezuela and remains in power because the Venezuelan public are behind him.

    Syrian targeted israeli. Israeli used the il-20 as a protection. Russia should have destroyed them.

    Of course.... in Hollywood land when you shoot down Jewish Criminals all the good guys come back to life... the American dream...

    The snake is in is the garden and still biting.

    The snake is very careful never to cross the fence...

    Yeah people have a lot to say in China and iran.

    China is not a democracy and has never claimed to be one, but in Iran the people get a vote... including women... unlike many countries in the region the west supports. The women in Iran have rather more rights in places the west seems to worship like Saudi Arabia. Of course since the NATO forces arrived Afghanistan is a utopia for women too now.

    You shoukd go live their if western societies suck so much. And brig MikeTheterrible with you. Very good idea no ?

    Perhaps Mike and I should remain in these criminal western societies and continue to demand they live up to the bullshit propaganda they preach... sometimes honourable people appear... like Sanders... but they are easy meat for criminals like the Clintons... but you clearly think there is no chance for the west at all if you are suggesting people who point out the faults and mistakes should leave. Doesn't surprise me... you are French and you have been told that Snowden and Assange are the enemy and you do as you are told.

    Israeli partriot destroyed syrian su-24.

    When?

    Of course a friend kill from a patriot means the patriot is shit. A friend kill from a mig is a mistake.

    Patriot is known to be shit... how many drones did it shoot down in Saudi Arabia?  It can't even cover more than 120 degrees...

    The thing is that durig war the crew is more stressed. The thing on their screen can be a enemy with ARM so they want it to be removed fast. This mig-31 kill was during an exercice so its even worse.

    The Patriot system that shot down the Tornado and tried to shoot down an F-16 was in automatic mode... no stress at all.

    But at the end it shows how we are free to express our opinions.

    Free as long as you accept chance of being physically blinded, or having your fingers blown off... real freedom you have there...

    Will only be a matter of time before drones are flying in western skies to kill enemies of the state... did you think that documentary was just a movie...

    Do you have permission to post here?  Is that the hum of a black helicopter outside your window?

    You do the same in China or iran and they bring in the army.

    The western media in HK would be broadcasting any issues regarding eye damage or finger loss pretty damn quickly...

    Besides... after the police tell you to go home you are breaking the law by remaining so I don't give a fuck about them to be honest, but get your own shit together before you start preaching the gospel to others.

    Resist police in China... get a nobel peace prize, do it in the west and expect to get the shit kicked out of you, or prison.

    If chinese and iranians are happy with that it's good for me. But don't me tell they are a free people.

    They are in many ways more free than you, because they know there are no real freedoms.

    I'm an expert but I know that american indians used to fight btw them and it was very uggly. They are not the peacefull people that many believes they were.

    Yes, yes, yes... they were just primitives... fighting and eating each other... they had no concept of property so we bought their land for some muskets and some beads and then when they realised that we screwed them over they started fighting us, but by then we outnumbered them and generally massacred them till they signed a piece of paper agreeing that what we stole from them we stole fair and square... yeah, I know how it works...

    Byelka was still development last year. If nebo and byelka are the same thing they would have done it in 1 or 2 months. The fact they didn't prove your claims are total bullshit.

    So now you are saying radars are radars... have you ever heard of systems like the Sgt York, or the Marauder?

    The Sgt York was an air defence gun system that was going to be a quick and fast solution to the gap in the US Army where the Shilka fit.

    They took an existing tank chassis... the M48, and put a huge turret with two 40mm Bofors anti aircraft guns... good air defence guns, so that should be OK, and then they took the radar from an F-18 and used that as the tracking radar and it was bloody useless... they tried for years to get it to work.

    The Marauder was a missile system similar to TOR, and it was a total waste of time too for many of the same reasons.... but the radar in the F-18 works... duh... maybe ground based radar and aircraft based radar are different and are not totally interchangeable like you think... apart from the fact that they are generally made by totally different companies of course...

    The guy from twitter that I quote in Syrian war thread said that chinese radars sucks.

    We have had a guy from a NATO country say NATO sucks, and we have had guys from Serbia saying US radars are not so great... the fact is that most equipment is not all it is cracked up to be much of the time.

    But of course cold war mantra dictates that anything bad about Soviet stuff must be true and anything positive must be propaganda... hense there is no way a smoothbore tank gun could be any good but tank gun autoloaders rip loaders arms off so often they have a special parade for one armed loaders... except that tanks with autoloaders don't have loaders...

    In particular influence of some persistently repeated "half truth" or patentely false notions that with time become accepted as true, bypassing critical thinking, (the basis of modern western PR operation doctrine) have, in the opinion of several contributors here, caused some ,but not obviously all, of your positions to be based on wrong assumptions or "false symmetry" mistakes.

    It was something that I suspected all along but really became obvious when things were not so well hidden.

    For years there was one writeup of the Stechkin Machine Pistol... I think it was Ian V Hogg who wrote the original and every western publication regarding the weapon just repeated that writeup... the Stechkin is big and heavy and under powered and totally inaccurate. A total failure as a machine pistol.

    But into the 1990s eastern bloc paramilitary groups kept using it... even Russian special forces kept using it...

    Then British magazines published an actual account of a guy who actually fired one and he quite liked it.

    It was heavy... compared with a Makarov... but lighter than a 45 colt... and 20 9mm holes in the target is going to be more effective than 7 x .45 calibre ones.

    He described it as comfortable and in a room sized distance a burst will land all your shots on the upper torso of a human target... which is what you want.

    The Makarov is less powerful than a 9mm parabellum but with FMJ ammo as used with a military weapon they both make 9mm holes in the target... the western 9mm is more powerful...  a heavier bullet moving faster, but all the vests that will stop one will generally stop both so in practical terms there is no real difference except the Soviet round can be used in simpler blowback weapons.

    Equally during the cold war we were told that western technology is better, but in terms of guns including aircraft cannon the Soviet weapons just seemed better.

    We were supposed to believe that western gear was designed to kill efficiently but also protect western soldiers lives, while the Soviet stuff was just crap copies of western stuff.

    When US airborne soldiers were walking or riding in trucks, VDV were riding in armoured vehicles... but then when most US infantrymen were walking or riding in trucks Soviet soldiers were riding in armoured and armed BTRs...

    It seems that Russia is facing the same issues 20 years later.

    Except that over time production of the AESAs will get even cheaper for Russia, which is what you should expect, but they only seem to be getting more expensive for the US... the whole point of the F-35 was smaller lightweight fighter that everyone uses... there was supposed to be economies in making it smaller and also because everyone was going to buy some, but it is only getting more and more expensive, which is a negative spiral because as it gets more expensive, like any product... they started out wanting 3,500 of them... they started out wanting 1,500 F-22s... simply because it is easier to say they will be cheaper if you need to make a lot... large scale production drives down the costs... when you plan to develop and produce 5 planes then development costs are split into 5. If you plan to make 5 thousand then the development costs are practically eliminated from the cost of the aircraft and production costs become the main factor in the price of the aircraft.

    When you block the purchase of 100 aircraft from a country that makes parts for the wing... you reduce production numbers and you complicate production for the rest of the aircraft because you now need to find a company to make them to spec on time with next to no warning and you just lost 100 aircraft sales... which is also going to drive up costs.

    Poland is getting 32... from about 2023 or something... which is going to be fantastic... when their operational costs blow their entire military budget and they don't have any pilots or ground crew qualified on the aircraft because it hasn't been in the air enough we will see what a fantastic aircraft it really is and what an important contribution AESA and stealth make to NATO.

    Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.


    But you just said western companies are faaar ahead of them...

    If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Huawei are no where near destroyed... and they are looking at Russian and Chinese alternatives to US OS... which will mean the US will not longer get any money from their sales... even if the entire market in the US is blocked... it is only 350 million people... they have four times bigger market in their own country.

    The return sanctions will likely force Apple to move production out of China... but they wont go to the US... they will go to the next poor country on their list... probably Bangledesh... but in 15-20 years time they might move production to the US Hahahahahahahahaha... because of the poverty in the US by then.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.

    Yeah, the Soviets sold gas to Europe all through much of the cold war... even when the US was supplying Stingers and Milan missiles to terrorists... it is the west that wages an economic as well as a political warfare on the world... why shouldn't they sell to Saudi Arabia?

    Yeah so your PESA radars are as good as other AESA and your photonic radars are almost ready and it will see stealth easily. So why is su-57 stealth and has a aesa like f22 which makes it 3-4 times more expensive than a su-35 ?

    Because western experts wont have photonic radars for a while and even when they do most of their weapons and systems wont have it either, so reduced RCS is useful for some of their fighter aircraft, but not for all of them.

    Max stealth has too many harsh requirements that compromise performance... no external weapons, or external fuel... the obvious, plus relatively delicate coatings and emissions control of radars and datalinks to minimise signature.


    US have more experience with stealth than you.

    They also have more experience with aircraft carriers too... does that mean Zircons wont sink US carriers?

    If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.

    The design of the F-22 doesn't absorb radar, it redirects it... it is basically the opposite of a luneberg lens... the materials it is made of and the coatings applied will effect the strength of the signals reflected but not their direction...

    Different RAM designs will have different performances which can be simulated by computer fairly easily.

    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.

    Against their own radars and captured radars, but not current in service Russian radars.

    The US sent helicopters in to take out radars right at the start of Desert Storm... which suggests a vulnerability to specific radar. Interception during the Kosovo campaign also suggests the same... yet neither Iraq nor Serbia had modern Soviet or Russian radar sets...

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    So the US taxpayer gave Boeing 100 billion dollars more than they needed (that is what profit is) and the Russian taxpayer gave Sukhoi 1 billion more than they needed... gee... I wonder which will think they are getting ripped off.

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    Actually the real reason the US has tried to sabotage Huawei is because their encryption is quantum based and the Americans can't break it and Huawei wont give them a back door.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east

    That is amusing, so the US controls the Middle East.... they would have more luck trying to control Middle Earth... they have broken Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya... Russia and Iran are helping Syria restore peace, Iraq has realised the big bad guy is the US and not Iran, and Irans position in the region is becoming helpful neighbour despite what Saudi Arabia and Israel and the US are squealing...


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:25 am

    More schizophrenic BS...why would they need to sabotage (actually it's more like panic attack) if they are so far ahead??...they should be able to out compete easily

    The problem is they're uncompetitive...and they know it!

    And who is competing against us ? In what fields ? Aeronotics ? Airbus and boeing have no competitors.
    Computing ? US leads that with microsoft.
    Smartphones ? Its either apple or android.

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    With no android, they won't sell their smartphones. Their 5G network is forbiden in many countries. That will impact them.


    I think your "control" of the ME is looking pretty shaky to put it mildly

    The rich countries that are worth something are our exclusive clients. The poor and destroyed ones (Iran, Syria, Yemen) are russians client. And you expect that Russia is competitive with such clients.

    In the short time when sanctions were off in iran, they bought western planes and hurried up to sign contracts with us and didn't give a fuck about your Russia.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:29 am

    No, after making less than 200 they realised that even plans for 750 was going to be unaffordable... now they have made 300 F35s they are having the same realisation...

    That's already enough. The f-35 is still produced.

    If the British and French had kept fighting the Germans as long as the Soviets did they might have gotten comparable losses, but instead the former ran away and the French gave up.

    French didn't gave up, they lost. There was no more army.
    British kept fighting as much as they could.

    If Staline did believe that Germany was attacking him, it would have been better for USSR too.

    Because the Russian leadership saw stealth as a money pit the Americans had already fallen for...

    And they are falling in it right now.

    It is the lower operating costs of the MiG-35 that will make it the more useful purchases of the RuAF in the future...

    What future ?

    They want a blue water navy because there is no such thing as international law any more... if Russia wants access to a world market it needs to be able to access it itself and a blue water navy is the obvious solution.

    They already have access to it.

    You send a carrier when you have never used carrier based aircraft before... the Kuznetsov needs to work as part of the naval team from gathering intel on the target via special forces on the ground and satellite images and UAV footage, to forming plans and executing attacks... and Syria was the ideal testing ground for that.

    In other words, attack a weak enemy with a multi billion dollars equipment. Just like US.

    You said russian carrier is used as a air defnece protection for a fleet. Where are the enemy ships in Syria trying to destroy russian ships ? West of Alleppo or maybe north west ?


    They were already hitting targets with cruise missiles... this was just an opportunity to test some new aircraft (MiGs) and upgraded Sukhois, and to get a system working that they had never used against real targets before because they are not murdering censored like the west is mostly made of.

    If they wanted to test the plane they could have send them from Khmeimim.

    You say they test weapon against real poeples, and in the same sentance you say they are not murderers like west. You should read what you write.

    Actually they flew over 1,600 sorties... mostly from land bases but planned from the K, so they didn't fail... and 50 million wouldn't even pay for one US operation there...

    The flew from a land base mostly.

    Blah blah blah, Maduro is democratically elected president of Venezuela and remains in power because the Venezuelan public are behind him.

    Yeah what about the democratically elected opposition at the assembly ? The army is behind him.

    The snake is very careful never to cross the fence...

    Tell that to the one bombed in syria by israeli every week.

    The Marauder was a missile system similar to TOR, and it was a total waste of time too for many of the same reasons.... but the radar in the F-18 works... duh... maybe ground based radar and aircraft based radar are different and are not totally interchangeable like you think... apart from the fact that they are generally made by totally different companies of course

    I was the one who said it's not because russia makes ground based huge aesa radars that it can make airborne ones easily.

    Read again.

    Patriot is known to be shit... how many drones did it shoot down in Saudi Arabia? It can't even cover more than 120 degrees...

    It is shit if you look at his capabilities to destroy something it was made for destroying.

    Let's talk about that when those syrian maned S-300 get destroyed.

    When?

    Google is your friend.

    But you just said western companies are faaar ahead of them...

    They don't take risks. Thats why they will keep being far ahead.

    Free as long as you accept chance of being physically blinded, or having your fingers blown off... real freedom you have there...

    Freedom in west doesn't mean free to destroy. Yellow vests in Iran or China would have been killed fast in the best scenario.


    Resist police in China... get a nobel peace prize

    Why ? It's a free country according to you.

    In China believing in god send you in camps. Very nice this freedom.

    Because western experts wont have photonic radars

    What will they have ? They will go back and study PESA radars ?

    So the US taxpayer gave Boeing 100 billion dollars more than they needed (that is what profit is) and the Russian taxpayer gave Sukhoi 1 billion more than they needed... gee... I wonder which will think they are getting ripped off.

    Keep believing US taxes pays everything in US. More biased and you die from hate.

    The thing is that boeig is selling thousands of planes to the world. Sulhoi 48 su-35 and few ssj100. That like racing against a ferrari with a lada.

    Actually the real reason the US has tried to sabotage Huawei is because their encryption is quantum based and the Americans can't break it and Huawei wont give them a back door.

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 am

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    No, they just can't compete Very Happy ...how many times do we have to point out the blatantly obvious cheers ...end of discussion

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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:54 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    No, they just can't compete  Very Happy ...how many times do we have to point out the blatantly obvious  cheers ...end of discussion


    Yeah I see that.

    Look at the reality. They are at the top and no one can compete against them. At least on the short/medium term. And even when China will become too strong economically, they will face US EU and japan because rich countries will always choose US rather than China or russia.

    Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them. EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything. Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:25 pm

    Isos wrote:Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them. EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything. Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.

    Buddy, you just don't have a f*cking clue.... but don't worry, as you are not alone. The US is stuffed choc-a-blok full of empty-head exceptionalists who can't adjust to the changing world, but eventually, reality will intrude on their space-spaces and they'll have no choice but to pull their heads outta their posteriors and smell the coffee. Laughing Laughing

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:40 am

    And who is competing against us ? In what fields ? Aeronotics ? Airbus and boeing have no competitors.

    Ignorance is bliss.

    Computing ? US leads that with microsoft.

    Microsoft develops software, and pretty shitty software at that. Right now all European governments use Microsoft because of course in a democracy they have developed a monopoly and are dictating to western countries because those western countries no longer have any options... which is why the US is so easily able to spy and therefore also manipulate most of Europe.

    Their sanctions and spying are creating a market for alternatives.

    Smartphones ? Its either apple or android.

    Huawei are already in talks with Russian and Chinese companies regarding alternatives in OS and apps.

    With no android, they won't sell their smartphones.

    And when Android was first developed they probably said with no apple OS they wont sell their smart phones too.

    Their 5G network is forbiden in many countries. That will impact them.

    Of course it will seriously impact them... they are going to have to wait until the US develops 5G technology before they can benefit from it...

    The rich countries that are worth something are our exclusive clients. The poor and destroyed ones (Iran, Syria, Yemen) are russians client. And you expect that Russia is competitive with such clients.

    And that has made the US so rich..., well in a lot of debt, but the infrastructure and quality of life is amazing... well a few people are doing very very well.

    In the short time when sanctions were off in iran, they bought western planes and hurried up to sign contracts with us and didn't give a fuck about your Russia.

    Perfectly true... and you could say the same about Gadaffi and Assad and Saddam... when given the chance to suck up to the west they did it... and how did that work out for them?

    Iran had no reason to think Russia was anything but another try hard sucking up to the west, and for much of the early years Putin was trying hard to get in to the rich boys club. The G7 became the G8 in the late 1990s... there was no way Russia was rich enough to join then... it was all political.... ironic because their leaving in 2014 was also political too... but the problem with politics is that words really don't mean much unless they are backed up by action and most of the time by the time there is action from the west there is no way to reverse and you are stuck in that car crash.

    That's already enough. The f-35 is still produced.

    It is only enough if they make 3,000 F-35s and they aren't going to.

    I really hope they do because the economic albatross of 3,000 F-35s will destroy their economy.

    The denial will have to stop and they will have to say... what we are doing can't be right because it is really failing badly.

    French didn't gave up, they lost. There was no more army.
    British kept fighting as much as they could.

    The western allies didn't start fighting in europe till the realised that the Soviets were going to be entering Germany soon and if they didn't do anything all of europe would be liberated by the Soviets.

    If Staline did believe that Germany was attacking him, it would have been better for USSR too.

    Germany attacking the Soviet Union sounded like something the British would come up with to try to provoke the Soviets into manouvering aggressively and make the Germans want to attack them...

    And they are falling in it right now.

    No... you don't get it do you... they dipped their toe in the water and realised the water was a bit cold... they have waited for warmer weather so the water is still chilly but it is getting hot so a nice cool swim is just what they could use right now.

    They haven't blow 1.5 trillion dollars on an F-35... and however many other trillions on F-117s, and B-2s, and F-22s, and all those shit drones Iran had no problem capturing.

    What future ?

    Are you suggesting the Russian AF has no future or the MiG-35?

    India just bought 36 Rafales for about 8 billion dollars..., so if we divide 8 billion by 36, and then times that by 126, we get about 28 billion dollars for their MRCA winners that were supposed to cost 10 billion. I wonder why they wont continue in that direction.

    So their alternative is F-16 or MiG-29.... well the F-16s are actually older than the MiG-29s.... and diversification of sources only makes sense if it improves logistics, so a new source with a history of sanctions makes things worse, not better.

    They already have access to it.

    Not with any strength or duration.

    In other words, attack a weak enemy with a multi billion dollars equipment. Just like US.

    In a way yes, but the obvious fundamental difference is that this enemy picked Syria and Russia and is a terrorist organisation supported by Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the US.... not the other way around.

    You said russian carrier is used as a air defnece protection for a fleet. Where are the enemy ships in Syria trying to destroy russian ships ? West of Alleppo or maybe north west ?

    Of course... air defence means sink ships... that is why the attack on Saudi Arabia recently was so successful... because billions of dollars of Patriot batteries and also european systems were looking for ships to sink instead of threats in the air like an air defence system should.

    Part of coordination of a carrier within a group of ships includes communication, as well as operating aircraft like the Ka-31 AEW aircraft, and of course CAP to monitor the local airspace for aircraft, missiles, and ships or subs.

    If they wanted to test the plane they could have send them from Khmeimim.

    Of course they could... and in 20 years time when they are operating off the coast of Africa they will only need 20 inflight refuelling aircraft to launch their CAP missions and the odd air strike from Khmeimim.... and it will work like clockwork because they will have practised it...

    You say they test weapon against real poeples, and in the same sentance you say they are not murderers like west. You should read what you write.

    They test weapons against people who are terrorists and if successful, will bring the chaos they are trying to create in Syria back to Russia and Europe.

    Currently in Idlib, the people living there are living with terrorists... they mostly moved there from other areas in Syria where they supported the terrorists and now they move with the terrorists because they are allies... there are no innocent civilians there any more... they will have either left or been killed by the terrorists.

    The flew from a land base mostly.

    Of course, but the experience for the crew of the Kuznetsov to gather intel and plan and execute missions was valuable experience.

    Yeah what about the democratically elected opposition at the assembly ? The army is behind him.

    Aw... are you really that stupid... that is like saying Boris Johnson is the democratically elected leader of Britain... the people didn't vote for him... his party colleagues voted him in... there was nothing democratic about rich white men voting for an idiot. Just like the DNC voting for Hillary to be the opposition candidate against Trump... in fact it is even worse because most Venezuelans didn't even know who Guano was before the US claimed he should be king.

    Tell that to the one bombed in syria by israeli every week.

    I would have to shout... you do understand what stand off weapons are don't you?

    I was the one who said it's not because russia makes ground based huge aesa radars that it can make airborne ones easily.

    No, you are the one saying Russia doesn't know how to make AESA radars and is 20 years behind, and then when proven wrong that they don't know how to make airborne AESA radars...

    If they needed to have AESA fighter radars in service they would have done it... no matter the cost, or how bad they end up being... we have seen several iterations of the AESA for the MiG-35... if they were desperate they would have one... it might only be a 600x600 array with pathetic performance but they would have one in service.

    The facts are that they don't need one in service, their existing radars are already good enough for the task and a fraction of the cost of even a very bad cobbled together AESA radar. They are working on developing the technology to the point where it is better value for money which means cheaper and better performance.

    It is sad that you wont accept this reasoning and just think the Russians are stupid.

    When it came to nuclear weapons and nuclear propulsion they were behind too, but you wouldn't even notice now...

    It is shit if you look at his capabilities to destroy something it was made for destroying.

    Let's talk about that when those syrian maned S-300 get destroyed.

    Well the Patriot battery that tried to shoot down an F-16 was taken out rather easily by an ARM because Patriot is not designed to defend itself from ARMs... the S-300 version the Syrians have can... so it is going to take rather more to take down an S-300 than a Patriot, but lets ignore that and say the patriot is wonderful.

    Turkey doesn't think so, and I suspect Saudi Arabia is phoning the Russians as we speak.

    Google is your friend.

    Google is part of the enemy.

    They don't take risks. Thats why they will keep being far ahead.

    How ironic you say that... most would suggest that taking risks and making choices is part of leading... that is why they call it the (b)leading edge.


    Freedom in west doesn't mean free to destroy. Yellow vests in Iran or China would have been killed fast in the best scenario.

    Yes, western dogma and propaganda tell you this is true, but these protesters in Hong Kong are not being killed... but it could not be that your propaganda has failed you...

    Of course the amusing thing is that when there is a protest in France, it is because the people are genuinely being abused by their government and the rich people who run the country, while in the countries you say have less democracy you will often see American political figures running around giving out cookies and stirring up trouble... it is funny that the west does the most to undermine democracy around the world... peaceful protest is a regime change tool the west uses... hire a few snipers to shoot random people in the crowd... get the people fizzing and then sit back and watch the country destroy itself... yah the american dream...

    Why ? It's a free country according to you.

    Because the nobel peace prizes go to useful idiots like oblama...

    In China believing in god send you in camps. Very nice this freedom.

    In Europe not believing in god got the Spanish inquisition... nice freedom that too.

    What will they have ? They will go back and study PESA radars ?

    No, there would be no profit margin there... they will start developing Star Trek Scanners... it will take 500 years and trillions of dollars a year, but they want the funding and a long term income...

    Keep believing US taxes pays everything in US. More biased and you die from hate.

    Not my problem.

    They need to learn to fix their own problems and not expect me to help them.

    The thing is that boeig is selling thousands of planes to the world. Sulhoi 48 su-35 and few ssj100. That like racing against a ferrari with a lada.

    Glad you are not just rehashing old stereotypes... Boeing is a monopoly in the US and has more voting influence than half the US population... no matter who is president... Sukhoi is a company that designs and builds aircraft.

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    And that is what it comes down to. The US doesn't like competition. And europe has hitched its wagon to that. I am glad the US and europe are pushing Russia and China away.

    They are at the top and no one can compete against them.

    They are head and shoulders above everyone else because they are sitting on a pile of debt... they see Russia gathering speed and they see China and India growing too and they panic... Russia is their biggest military threat, and China is their biggest economic threat, but India is a huge market they want to use against China. They will also try to use Russia against China too but it is too late.

    And even when China will become too strong economically, they will face US EU and japan because rich countries will always choose US rather than China or russia.

    As China becomes economically stronger it will have 1.5 billion potential customers for european and japanese goods... and the US will have a 30 trillion dollar debt and with the US dollar becoming less and less the international currency less and less means to pay their debts.


    Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them.

    What!

    I am no economist, but Trumps tariffs means Americans pay more for Chinese goods... it is Americans paying more for stuff they were buying before... it means poorer Americans, or products from other poor countries replace Chinese goods... but it will take time for Apple and Nike to move production from China to Bangledesh...

    EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything

    Russia used to import its food from the EU, now it is exporting food to China to replace food they used to buy from the US... things don't remain the same... this is not the 1990s.

    Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.

    Used is past tense... now Russia accepts payments in Euros and other currencies too.

    The US is stuffed choc-a-blok full of empty-head exceptionalists who can't adjust to the changing world

    The US needs a Putin to say, screw it... why do we police the world. Lets close all our foreign military bases and end all the wars we are involved with and focus on problems in America... fix the roads and bridges... build some monorails that actually work... some high speed trains... lets work out how to deal with plastic waste and make it reusable... lets go to mars... lets make our living standards the envy of the world again.... that is the living standards of everyone in the US, not just the ultra rich.
    Isos
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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:24 am

    Microsoft develops software, and pretty shitty software at that. Right now all European governments use Microsoft because of course in a democracy they have developed a monopoly and are dictating to western countries because those western countries no longer have any options... which is why the US is so easily able to spy and therefore also manipulate most of Europe.

    Having the monopoly in its field is what every company would love to.

    Huawei are already in talks with Russian and Chinese companies regarding alternatives in OS and apps.

    Who's going to use it ? All the connected people use android and iOS, Chinese and russians use their smartphones for practically everything possible. They want to stay connected to the world. They will just switch to other smartphones runing on android or iOS.

    And that has made the US so rich..., well in a lot of debt, but the infrastructure and quality of life is amazing... well a few people are doing very very well.

    Yeah China and Russia have no deibt and all their people live in luxury houses with chinese made beautifull 300k$ car outside, they eat luxury meals and fart fragrances ...

    Get real a little bit.

    It is only enough if they make 3,000 F-35s and they aren't going to.

    I really hope they do because the economic albatross of 3,000 F-35s will destroy their economy.

    All that money was used by US companies and is stilll there.

    Germany attacking the Soviet Union sounded like something the British would come up with to try to provoke the Soviets into manouvering aggressively and make the Germans want to attack them...

    Yeah British are responsible for everything and russians are perfect.

    They haven't blow 1.5 trillion dollars on an F-35... and however many other trillions on F-117s, and B-2s, and F-22s, and all those shit drones Iran had no problem capturing.

    No they haven't but the money they used was too much because they desperatly needed another country to invest and now they desperatly need someone to buy it.

    US are sure that the f35 will be bought. First because they will buy it as China and russia became threats again and because other countries will have to.

    But the thing is that those investments stay in their respective coutries. Those 1.5 trillion are going around in USA (they were used to pay US worker , engineers, smaller subcontractors...) and with the taxes they come back in US hands soon.

    India just bought 36 Rafales for about 8 billion dollars..., so if we divide 8 billion by 36, and then times that by 126, we get about 28 billion dollars for their MRCA winners that were supposed to cost 10 billion. I wonder why they wont continue in that direction.

    That's not only for the rafales. The contract includes equipment for airfields, weapons, training and probably other stuff like some sort of guarenties.

    MMRCA was suppose to have offsets so half of those 28 billion should have been invested in indian civilian projects.

    Russians sign for only jets and then for the rest.

    Aw... are you really that stupid... that is like saying Boris Johnson is the democratically elected leader of Britain... the people didn't vote for him... his party colleagues voted him in... there was nothing democratic about rich white men voting for an idiot. Just like the DNC voting for Hillary to be the opposition candidate against Trump... in fact it is even worse because most Venezuelans didn't even know who Guano was before the US claimed he should be king.

    When its good for you opinion, democracy is good but when not it's total shit used by west to destroy a country.

    Maduro destroyed the country. He can't even pay russian companies.

    No need for your "its like saying...". If you have to prove something stay on the subject which is here the opposition elected at the assembly while Maduro failed.


    Of course, but the experience for the crew of the Kuznetsov to gather intel and plan and execute missions was valuable experience.

    The only experience they gained there is that they need to check arresting wires too.


    I would have to shout... you do understand what stand off weapons are don't you?

    And S-400 missiles stop at the border ? Stand off weapon are an acceptable weapon when it comes to killing your allies ?

    I remeber when Syrians used they bm-30 to attack from stand off israeli on the golan, they got an answer 5 minutes after.

    No, you are the one saying Russia doesn't know how to make AESA radars and is 20 years behind, and then when proven wrong that they don't know how to make airborne AESA radars...

    No I said they talk for 20 years how stealth and aesa are shit because US uses them and they end up using it. I so said they never had an airborne aesa of any sort anf their first one will fly 20 years after US one.

    That's not an opinion that's a fact.

    The thing is that you and other russian fanbois here are so anti-US that anyone who is a objective about their equipment becomes a colonialist and supremacist white man who praises every move of the US.

    How ironic you say that... most would suggest that taking risks and making choices is part of leading... that is why they call it the (b)leading edge.

    Most are stupid and talk a lot. Western companies are on the top and they will never help chinese or russians to go near them anyday soon.


    Of course the amusing thing is that when there is a protest in France, it is because the people are genuinely being abused by their government and the rich people who run the country, while in the countries you say have less democracy you will often see American political figures running around giving out cookies and stirring up trouble...

    Yeah those people in those countries run by dicatators go in the streets because they love their situation. They praise their wonderfull dicatators. Those who maight think their situation is bad are US spies.

    Your argumentation is rather pathetic.

    US may use them but when they go in the streets its because they can't support those assholes runing their countries.

    In Europe not believing in god got the Spanish inquisition... nice freedom that too.

    And look how far you go to find a similar exemple for the west.

    Next time don't answer.

    Used is past tense... now Russia accepts payments in Euros and other currencies too.

    Using euro gives EU another tool to sanctiothem badly just like US are doing with the dollar.the other currency are not stable. Cthe other currency starting with russian ruble are not stable, multi billion contract can became multi million one in few days.





    Anyway I stop this conversation here. I'm fed up.
    GarryB
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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 30 Empty Temporary thread for talking bollocks

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:20 pm

    Having the monopoly in its field is what every company would love to.

    Of course, because all companies are run by power hungry psychopaths...

    Who's going to use it ? All the connected people use android and iOS, Chinese and russians use their smartphones for practically everything possible. They want to stay connected to the world. They will just switch to other smartphones runing on android or iOS.

    I am not using Android or iOS... or Windows... new OS can work seamlessly on the internet...

    They buy new phones every other week... I doubt most could even tell you what OS they are even running...

    Yeah China and Russia have no deibt and all their people live in luxury houses with chinese made beautifull 300k$ car outside, they eat luxury meals and fart fragrances ...

    Get real a little bit.

    But that is the point... if I am 22 trillion dollars in debt I would be asking myself why I live in a trailer park working three jobs and my wife working two just to pay the fucking bills... where is the benefit of that money spent... most Americans really don't see it...

    All that money was used by US companies and is stilll there.

    Of course.... it is in the pockets of the 1% and they will give it all back... someone just needs to ask...

    Yeah British are responsible for everything and russians are perfect.

    The British have a long history of screwing Russia... the Russians had no reason to believe the British at all. Still don't.

    No they haven't but the money they used was too much because they desperatly needed another country to invest and now they desperatly need someone to buy it.

    Rubbish, they are offering a good product that they need to sell before the F-35 house of cards collapses and everyone realises Su-35s and MiG-35s and F-15s were good enough... with stealthy drones like the S-70.

    No matter what happens Russia wont make more than about 250 Su-57s for itself... it simply does not need more.

    US are sure that the f35 will be bought. First because they will buy it as China and russia became threats again and because other countries will have to.

    I hope you are right... the US forcing its allies to buy those shitty planes will break those alliances rather better than anything Russia or China could do.

    But the thing is that those investments stay in their respective coutries. Those 1.5 trillion are going around in USA (they were used to pay US worker , engineers, smaller subcontractors...) and with the taxes they come back in US hands soon.

    Not really, those engineers have only made 300 aircraft of 3,500 odd they were supposed to make, most of those 1.5 trillion is smoke and mirrors...

    That's not only for the rafales. The contract includes equipment for airfields, weapons, training and probably other stuff like some sort of guarenties.

    MMRCA was suppose to have offsets so half of those 28 billion should have been invested in indian civilian projects.

    Russians sign for only jets and then for the rest.

    The 10 billion dollar contract was for a small number of foreign produced fighters and the rest local production, the Russian offer met the terms, the French offer did not, but the whole exercise was driven by the pro Mirage 2000 lobby to replace the M2K in Indian service so the French entry was always going to win.

    They originally wanted licence production rights to the M2K but France refused and demanded they buy Rafales... will be interesting to see what happens when they get 36 in service...

    The only experience they gained there is that they need to check arresting wires too.

    Which shows your shallow knowledge of the situation... arrester wires fail all the time... that is why there are four fitted at any one time and they carry spares that can be quickly and easily replaced. The problem was not the wires but the reduction gears.

    You can't make wires strong enough to stop an object the weight of an aircraft, so you connect it to reduction gear that gradually increases the tension... it is a bit like making it slightly elastic, but without that tension being released again and sending it back into the air.

    When there is something wrong with the tension gear you can't just replace a cog or wire... it is like repairing a gearbox in a car... you have to take it to pieces and see what is going wrong.

    If you don't know what is wrong till it is too late then aircraft run out of fuel and have to ditch in the water.

    And S-400 missiles stop at the border ?

    An S-400 is an excellent system but can't tell what sort of weapons an aircraft is carrying. Once it has launched those weapons from behind a mountain range there is no legitimate reason to shoot the plane down. The radar will track the incoming weapons and alert the air defence forces near the areas the weapon seems to be heading to.

    Stand off weapon are an acceptable weapon when it comes to killing your allies ?

    They have an agreement with the juice. When the juice broke the agreement the Syrians got S-300 missiles and became part of probably the best IADS in the region.

    I remeber when Syrians used they bm-30 to attack from stand off israeli on the golan, they got an answer 5 minutes after.

    Syrians acting on their own without Russian permission or support... they have other objectives that need to be dealt with first.

    No I said they talk for 20 years how stealth and aesa are shit because US uses them and they end up using it.

    They were told it was shit when a fanboy said it made their planes invisible, and unbeatable...

    I so said they never had an airborne aesa of any sort anf their first one will fly 20 years after US one.

    That's not an opinion that's a fact.

    It is an empty fact, the Soviets had electronically scanned (PESA) radars operating in the late 1970s and the first operational AESA in an aircraft was for the air force if Chile in the late 1990s. They have not made any attempt to convert the MiG-31 to AESA because it offers no advantages at the current technology and price levels... why would they introduce it in any of their other fighter aircraft?

    High offboresight AAMs and helmet mounted cueing systems are of much more value... also something the soviets had in the 1980s.

    In comparison stealth in fighters has never been relevant in combat, they used a few stealth bombers occasionally... in situations where a stealthy cruise missile would have been much much cheaper and much more useful...

    The thing is that you and other russian fanbois here are so anti-US that anyone who is a objective about their equipment becomes a colonialist and supremacist white man who praises every move of the US.

    Just calling it like I see it.

    Most are stupid and talk a lot. Western companies are on the top and they will never help chinese or russians to go near them anyday soon.

    Of course... and the reason the Russians are ahead in hypersonic missiles and China is ahead in 5G technology is because they are copying those advanced western companies... who haven't got any working examples... damn them Ruskies and Chinks are clever eh?

    Yeah those people in those countries run by dicatators go in the streets because they love their situation. They praise their wonderfull dicatators. Those who maight think their situation is bad are US spies.

    Your argumentation is rather pathetic.

    Western manipulation and abuse of so called free media and manufactured freedom movements has made dictators look good and honest, and democracy a dirty word in most of the world.

    US may use them but when they go in the streets its because they can't support those assholes runing their countries.

    US policy in central and south america is to oppose any social or political movements they don't approve of, so in Venezuela, when a government starts looking at solutions to poverty and making things better for the poor majority, the US imposes sanctions and seizes their money in the west, and blame the current leader for the problems, and you like the fucking drooling idiot you are believe you know anything at all about Maduro when a year ago you wouldn't even know his name let alone which country he leads, but you endorse the US deciding who should lead that country even though last year they voted Maduro in for a second term as president. They have done all they could with a rent a crowd to over throw the legally elected democratic government and you bitch and whine about me supporting dictators and not being nice to the fucking yanks.

    And look how far you go to find a similar exemple for the west.

    The west just recently overthrew the democratically elected government in the Ukraine, and they did that by hiring snipers to shoot random people (police and civilians) at a protest to cause unrest so their stooges could seize power. Like most east european countries they basically have a nationalist party, then the next popular is a communist party, and then you have the extremists who are mostly skin heads and nazis... couldn't use the commies of course and the main party is normally the incumbent you are overthrowing so they used the nazis... who lived up to their reputation and burned people to death and shot those trying to escape and any that tried to say no were bombed and shelled... that naked woman you were talking about... if she had a Russian flag wrapped around her she would likely be raped and then killed in peaceful freedom loving Kiev.

    And how about the peace and unity in Syria or Libya or Afghanistan... it has been 30 years since evil Saddam was driven out of Kuwaite... I think men got the vote there in 2009, but not women of course...

    Next time don't answer.

    Another feature of western democracy... there is a transmit button but no receive...

    Using euro gives EU another tool to sanctiothem badly just like US are doing with the dollar.the other currency are not stable.

    Good... use it... train them to hate the west... it will be better in the long run... for them.

    Cthe other currency starting with russian ruble are not stable, multi billion contract can became multi million one in few days.

    Russia, Iran, China, and India have all already agreed to not trade in US dollars.

    Anyway I stop this conversation here. I'm fed up.

    Moving it now... it is way off topic.
    kvs
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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:15 pm

    The dissing of Huawei by the resident NATO fanboi is hilarious. The US does not even produce the 5th and 6th gen level of equipment that Huawei produces.
    And Huawei has also developed its own Arm CPU variant that will give Intel/AMD some serious competition. The most likely explanation for all the spying and
    IP theft claims is that the US can't compete and is pulling the usual dirty tricks to "succeed". American claims about IP can never be given the benefit of the
    doubt: supposedly Russia is stealing all the Patriot and yet-to-be-built hypersonic missile tech but the shit America produces is either shit or not even present
    on this astral plane.

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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:56 pm

    Isos wrote:Yeah so your PESA radars are as good as other AESA ..

    Our latest ПФАР, and specifically Н035 «Ирбис», are not "as good" as other latest АФАР, it significantly surpass them in terms of, radiated power, detection/acquisition range , side lobes performances and cost, while conceding to them in, beam agility, interleaving air/groung mode and capability to provide targets update guidance to an higher number of missiles and UAVs (this last difference become exploitable, above all for US -made fixed array mounted only in frontal radome, only for 3th part guidance of missiles delivered by other aircraft against enemies remaining within 45-50 frontal degrees).  

    Isos practically this mean that, at example if you are in a forward formation of F-22s you will detect and acquire with AN/APG-77 a group of enemy air refueling aircraft (the destruction of which could mean the effective "downing" ,without firing a single missile, of an entire attacking deep strike or SEAD/DEAD group of literally dozen enemy aircraft that counted on them to return from theirs mission) and the position of theirs defensive counter air group more than 100 km after what would be possible to a formation of Су-35С with its Н035 "Ирбис" and this gap ,together with the employment of Р-37M instead of an AIM-120-D......,will make all the difference between being capable to easily and timely engage them or being totally uncapable of that.

    Even more all our simulation models of modern large scale air combat between advanced opponents for long range engagements (that anyhow against highly manoueuvrable fighters proceeding at supersonic speed and protected by advanced ECM systems will not produce relative losses superior to 20-25 % of the enemy formation before the merge) have always shown the central role of wide angular detection capabilities for each aircraft in the air formation, where it become a true force multiplier both offensively -mantaining detection/locking and missile guidance on enemy aircraft/ missiles-  that defensively -allowing kinematic motions enormously aiding AAM-defeating maneuvers and to exit from enemy radar FoV-.

    This became a central MoD technical requirement both for development of Н035 "Ирбис"



    and Н036

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 30 Zqr16810

    As said this transient step with the development of Н036 АФАР has been done to provide a working radar sample with very high field of view in the today built aircraft, exibiting an elementary component basis and a placement in the aircraft's structure more similar to the fotonic based models that will be serially integrated, likely, already from the second MoD order of T-50s ( that will require some minor modifications, but will spare some weight and increase of several times detection, acquisition and EW immunity performances).


    Isos wrote:So why is su-57 stealth and has a aesa like f22 which makes it 3-4 times more expensive than a su-35 ?
     

    About the Н036 АФАР you can read above , about the alleged cost of T-50 in comaparison with Су-35С, it is a pure non-sense, probably fruit of the usual disfunctional brain of western PR doctors.


    Isos wrote:US have more experience with stealth than you. Geometry of the plane, RAM (which includes materials and paint). Soviet had the first but not the second.The first can be studied but second needs to be created and then tested. If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.

    Isos lately i are attempting, for various reasons, to avoid to provide response too technical (you can search some i and other contributors have given in the past about this subject), but i image that you are perfectly aware of the fact that radar absorbing materials (often less knowly by most used in "low observable" design to merely change the point and angle of incidence of a portion of the reradiating cone toward other elements of the airframe capable to reduce the return at the source point) account also in the most advanced samples of latest generation to no more than 20 % of the total RCS reduction.

    Now even an openly accessible, mostly physical optics-executed (providing usually result most "advantageous" for the Aircraft in terms of reduction of the effective RCS) analysis of the F-22's airframe RCS give results very different from the ridiculous figures circulating on it - and here we talk of frontal projection not average -. Just for example :

    https://www.academia.edu/5672531/Radar_Cross_Section_of_a_stealthy_aircraft_using_electromagnetic_simulation_in_the_X_and_in_VHF_UHF_Bands    

    you will notice how the same authors ,are forced to in some way and in a way totally unprofessionally to justify the enormous spread between theirs computation and the "public literature" (read PR garbage) for frontal RCS ,variating from 20 to 40 dBSM at 8 to 10 GHz, just citing the "unknown variable of RAM" , that they themselves well know cannot contribute for more than a 10 dBSM reduction in effective area of scattering.

    This example, one of the dozen is possible to find in public and not public analysis of "low observable" aircraft, show not only what are the real RCS figures we are talking about (those perfectly collimating with Federation's Institutes computation boasting the most advanced mathematical modeling for radar diffraction at world none excluded) ,but the terrible pressure existing in the West on the scientifical community on maintaing, often also in an unsophisticated gross way, the PR coverage on those sensible subjects.


    Last edited by Mindstorm on Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:24 pm

    It takes a special kind of moron to swallow company brochure claims as validated scientific fact. Brochures for products are written by the marketing department
    and not by the R&D team and have an obvious conflict of interest: sell the product is top priority, actual performance characteristics are not conducive to selling
    the product.

    As someone who does physics for a living, I always found the claims about a few square centimeters of radar cross section claimed for the F-22 as utter, brain
    dead BS. One can only get such small cross sections only from a small number of ideal vantage points and by using 1950s radar characteristics. No F-22 is
    going to present the optimum low RCS to multiple radars all the time. It is physically impossible and in fact, the F-22 has enormous RCS from its ridiculously
    oversized rear rudders. When you drop the 1950s radar features and admit the use of wide spectrum detection, the whole stealth miracle starts to fade away
    and fast.

    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:58 pm

    kvs wrote:The dissing of Huawei by the resident NATO fanboi is hilarious.    The US does not even produce the 5th and 6th gen level of equipment that Huawei produces.  
    And Huawei has also developed its own Arm CPU variant that will give Intel/AMD some serious competition.    The most likely explanation for all the spying and
    IP theft claims is that the US can't compete and is pulling the usual dirty tricks to "succeed".   American claims about IP can never be given the benefit of the
    doubt: supposedly Russia is stealing all the Patriot and yet-to-be-built hypersonic missile tech but the shit America produces is either shit or not even present
    on this astral plane.  


    No company in China is independend. In France and Europe in general we dont want comrade Xi in our networks. Thats why Huawei gets banned here. Quite reasonable in such a important
    infrastructure.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:20 pm

    Huawei are already in talks with Russian and Chinese companies regarding alternatives in OS and apps

    It will end up tits up. No devs, no OS. Microsoft and their surface platforms sucked so bad because of that.

    Huawei phones are only popular because they are cheap and they run android.


    Last edited by Regular on Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:20 pm

    kvs wrote:As someone who does physics for a living, I always found the claims about a few square centimeters of radar cross section claimed for the F-22 as utter, brain
    dead BS. .


    Exactly the same here.

    kvs wrote:One can only get such small cross sections only from a small number of ideal vantage points and by using 1950s radar characteristics. No F-22 is
    going to present the optimum low RCS to multiple radars all the time

    The thing i find even more amusing is the terrible "clutching at straws" by part of western collagues when them , presenting the results of theirs work in a serious publication about those subjects (RCS computations of supposedly "very low observable aircraft of western design) begin to utter the most self-embarrassing non-senses to attempt to, in a way, to cover the huge defference they themselves find between the RCS they compute for those low observable aircraft and the comical garbage coming from the PR departments of the US making companies and theirs slave media.

    If you open at page 9 (49 of the journal) of the analysis i have provided in the link in the last post you will notice that strictly in the frontal projection even taking into account the portion of X band for which planar layout arrangement of F-22's airframe is optimized, RCS reduction-wise, (8-10 GHz) you have that the RCS variate from a minimum of -18 dBsm at 8 GHz up to +4 dBsm at 10 GHz.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:50 am

    No company in China is independend. In France and Europe in general we dont want comrade Xi in our networks. Thats why Huawei gets banned here. Quite reasonable in such a important
    infrastructure.

    So what you are trying to say is that Chinese hardware that might have built in back doors and weaknesses is bad, but US hardware that does not exist yet, but when it does will definitely have back doors and weaknesses is a better choice for France and for Europe and the world?

    Grow up.

    When you actually have evidence of Chinese spying please tell us about it, but the evidence of US spying is enormous, and evidence of their immoral and illegal use of information so gained is public record.

    It will end up tits up. No devs, no OS. Microsoft and their surface platforms sucked so bad because of that.

    There are dozens of operating systems around the place... it is not even as if it is a totally new language... MS DOS is just microsoft disk operating system, which was largely stolen from existing DOSs... it really is not rocket science... 90% of users don't even know what operating system they even use.

    Ask most people and they will say Dell, or Acer, of Phillips because that is what is written on their monitor.

    There are hundreds of different Linux variations for a variety of platforms from tiny to industrial that are all open source and free.

    Huawei phones are only popular because they are cheap and they run android.

    And for a few years you could say the same about Samsung phones... but these days if you are prepared to wait a few extra months they normally come out with a cheaper phone than the latest Iphone... often with new or better features...

    As someone who does physics for a living, I always found the claims about a few square centimeters of radar cross section claimed for the F-22 as utter, brain
    dead BS. .

    As an amateur, with fairly basic but broad knowledge... the F-22 is not a sphere so describing it with one number for its RCS can't be accurate.

    In sales, you don't list problems, you list the very best features to try to sell the product.

    The figures the Americans give is the best angle at specific frequencies in a particular status and condition... ie X band simple radars of limited processing and power, against an F-22 without external weapons and in top condition properly maintained and serviced... from one specific direction/angle no doubt.

    Change any of those parameters and the RCS will blow out exponentially... because that is what RCS do...

    Otherwise existing types could be made stealthy and there would be no need to manage design and construction down to the fraction of a millimetre, and precision of angles to the nth degree.

    As the Russians worked out... reduced radar signature is useful, but not critical to change the entire airforce for.

    Interceptors and indeed AWACS platforms will be operating rather powerful radars a lot of the time so radar stealth makes very little sense for either of them.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:27 am

    GarryB wrote:
    No company in China is independend. In France and Europe in general we dont want comrade Xi in our networks. Thats why Huawei gets banned here. Quite reasonable in such a important
    infrastructure.

    So what you are trying to say is that Chinese hardware that might have built in back doors and weaknesses is bad, but US hardware that does not exist yet, but when it does will definitely have back doors and weaknesses is a better choice for France and for Europe and the world?

    Grow up.

    When you actually have evidence of Chinese spying please tell us about it, but the evidence of US spying is enormous, and evidence of their immoral and illegal use of information so gained is public record.

    It will end up tits up. No devs, no OS. Microsoft and their surface platforms sucked so bad because of that.

    There are dozens of operating systems around the place... it is not even as if it is a totally new language... MS DOS is just microsoft disk operating system, which was largely stolen from existing DOSs... it really is not rocket science... 90% of users don't even know what operating system they even use.

    Ask most people and they will say Dell, or Acer, of Phillips because that is what is written on their monitor.

    There are hundreds of different Linux variations for a variety of platforms from tiny to industrial that are all open source and free.

    Huawei phones are only popular because they are cheap and they run android.

    And for a few years you could say the same about Samsung phones... but these days if you are prepared to wait a few extra months they normally come out with a cheaper phone than the latest Iphone... often with new or better features...

    As someone who does physics for a living, I always found the claims about a few square centimeters of radar cross section claimed for the F-22 as utter, brain
    dead BS. .

    As an amateur, with fairly basic but broad knowledge... the F-22 is not a sphere so describing it with one number for its RCS can't be accurate.

    In sales, you don't list problems, you list the very best features to try to sell the product.

    The figures the Americans give is the best angle at specific frequencies in a particular status and condition... ie X band simple radars of limited processing and power, against an F-22 without external weapons and in top condition properly maintained and serviced... from one specific direction/angle no doubt.

    Change any of those parameters and the RCS will blow out exponentially... because that is what RCS do...

    Otherwise existing types could be made stealthy and there would be no need to manage design and construction down to the fraction of a millimetre, and precision of angles to the nth degree.

    As the Russians worked out... reduced radar signature is useful, but not critical to change the entire airforce for.

    Interceptors and indeed AWACS platforms will be operating rather powerful radars a lot of the time so radar stealth makes very little sense for either of them.

    China spies constantly, so yes, i dont want comrade xi in our hardware. Im glad france locked them out of competition.

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