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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:16 am

    Most Russian fanboys criticised Stealth and AESA for being fucking expensive, and in the case of stealth... it worked against radar and weapons of the time but over time new systems have been developed to render their enormous cost a total waste of time and money.


    The F-117 is a great example... mediocre flight performance, and a payload of two laser guided bombs, and a flight range less than modern Russian cruise missiles.

    It is still expensive even for russians. But russians like you say don't even go at full stealth.

    F-117 is a very good bomber. You will say it was destroyed by old s-125 but Tu-22M with it supersonic speed and wonderfull weapon was also destroyed by Georgian air force.

    And guess who is making a flying wing bomber 20 years after the americans ? The russians.

    Of course... they were rusted old crap so the Russian Air Force put them in service... because the RuAF like rusted old crap aircraft like the Su-35 and Su-57...

    Yes they got that rusted mig and put them in service.

    They have their customers by the balls... they "give" them aide for free and then dictate what they can or cannot buy with that money ...

    Number 1 in arms production. Control the richest countries. Spend the more in R&D. They are in a very good situation for them.


    It says so in their colour brochures... Rolling Eyes

    It's not the french or the american who sold rusted migs.

    But hang on, the Russians and Soviets have been working much longer than the west on longer wave radar technologies for anti stealth roles, but are you still claiming western long wave radars are better?

    They have better electronics so better radar computing. As a proof, russia is using Texas Instrument products in their S-400. Well not in your head but in our reality it is.

    Yeah, the Soviets have had supersonic anti ship missiles for decades... over half a century actually and some new US designs that have been planned for a while might get in to service.

    And when they saw how good was exocet they hurry up making the kh-35.

    MiG-35 and Su-35 are not stealth, but when the new radar designs they have been developing are ready of course they will get them you idiot, but they wont become stealthy and they don't need to.

    Well su35 was not in my list. It has no stealth and no aesa. It's a plane that bets everything on row power.

    The other will get them (aesa and stealth) just like the americans 20 years ago.


    See and that is where you really don't understand the Russians. It is mass production and wide deployment that will make AESA elements affordable and much more useful than if they were only fitted to a few platforms.

    That is why their corvettes have UKSK launchers... because all their upgraded and new build platforms will have the same... it is called standardisation... and really something NATO knows very little about... what is the standard NATO 5.56mm rifle for instance... even the ammo from different countries has a slightly different loading...

    See that's where you are biased. Aren't US mass producing stealth and aesa ? Yes they are. Aren't the US navy and french standardized ? Yes they are.

    Why do you think the MiG-41 will be stealthy? And how stealthy do you think it could possibly be with an enormous radar scanning for aircraft and incoming weapons flying very low and very high... it will probably track hypersonic missiles flying at more than 40km altitude and also ballistic missiles outside of the atmosphere too... and cruise missiles hugging the terrain... what part of that do you see as being stealthy or needing to be stealthy?

    It was said so by an official in an article posted here. It's not me guessing (something you do a lot).

    but if you agree the White Swan doesn't need to be stealthy then why do you think the MiG-41 interceptor needs to be stealthy?

    I just look what is done, how it's used and what they are doing. Officials said it will incorporate stealth.

    Their materials are better and should offer significantly better performance with fewer problems.

    Then why are they offering su30 with western made components ? Why did they beg for french Catherine cameras for their t-90 ? Why did they beg for Thales components for their su-30SM ? Why are they using US electronics in their S-400 ?

    They do, but they don't climb the fence and get into Syria like they used to, they often climb the fence to the next door neighbour

    Everytime it is successful.


    I remember in the late 80s when the cold war was still officially going they said they wanted 1,500 F-22s. With the end of the cold war of course in the 1990s they said 750 would do and that was the plan because that was what they needed... but when they realised there was nothing to justify even F-15s let alone F-22s they stopped production

    Those 187 F-22 would have destroyed the russian fleet of su27. That's why they quikly made the su35 and s-400.

    No, it wasn't. Of course it wasn't considered a new bible like in the US where penetrating airspace to murder people is considered more important than anything else.


    They didn't even knew it could be used to make stealthy aircraft. They never used those maths. It was only theory for them. It's the US who had the idea of implementing it into aircraft design.

    But russian fanboys are happy because it was a soviet guy who made the book Rolling Eyes
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:32 pm

    It is still expensive even for russians. But russians like you say don't even go at full stealth.

    They could have gone for US level stealth if they wanted to, but that would cost 1,000 times more and perhaps might have been an extra 3-4 years of being useful before the enemy found a way to defeat it, so instead of going hard on stealth they went hard enough to make something useful but still affordable.

    F-117 is a very good bomber. You will say it was destroyed by old s-125 but Tu-22M with it supersonic speed and wonderfull weapon was also destroyed by Georgian air force.

    F-117 is out of service and its performance results could have been achieved with rather less money invested in better cruise missile technology... and investment they could still be benefiting from today, unlike the benefits from the F-117.

    The Tu-22M was either destroyed by a BUK or a Spyder... the fact that the Israelis are not crowing about it suggests a BUK, which is a modern up to date SAM system against a rather old unupgraded bomber like the Backfire... unlike the ancient S-125 against the state of the art super stealthy F-117 they should not have even known was operating over their airspace if you believe the pamphlet...

    And guess who is making a flying wing bomber 20 years after the americans ? The russians.

    Who made theirs 40 years after the Germans... what is your point?

    Actually the Soviets developed and built a flying wing design during WWII from memory.... just a prototype, but still.

    Yes they got that rusted mig and put them in service.

    Of course, if it is not gold plated it must be useless, but the amusing thing is that recent figures seem to show very little performance difference between Flankers and Fulcrums, but there is a significant difference in operational costs. Something NATO will find out as more F-35s enter service no doubt... the amusing thing is that western fanboys are starting to realise what a real dog these aircraft are and what an economic burden they are going to put on Americas allies... Turkey has really dodged a bullet here to be honest... even if they end up buying MiG-35s.

    Number 1 in arms production. Control the richest countries. Spend the more in R&D. They are in a very good situation for them.

    No they are not. They charge the most for their weapons so their sales figures are the best, and they blackmail their so called allies to buy their products... which tells you immediately how good their products are. They spend more on anything and are deeper in debt than they know how to fix and getting deeper all the time.... no this is not a good situation for them unless they are in denial... and they are so they are ignoring the problem and hope the next president will fix it... the current one has made things much much worse... will he get a chance to finish America off or will another person get the priviledge to fight the people who actually run the US or should I say are running the US into the ground.

    It's not the french or the american who sold rusted migs.

    No, they make products and get paid and then refuse to deliver to customers like Mistrals and F-35s...

    They have better electronics so better radar computing. As a proof, russia is using Texas Instrument products in their S-400. Well not in your head but in our reality it is.

    Not any more, the US has been banned from providing such electronics to Russia for quite some time and Russia has been using Russian substitutes... which is good for the Russian economy and export potential for Russian products because they own them fully.

    And when they saw how good was exocet they hurry up making the kh-35.

    Would be better if they actually ever exploded. The SS-N-25 was developed for export, and was first used on an East German ship in the 1980s.

    But otherwise it was rather a huge improvement on the original it was actually nicknamed Harpoonski.

    Well su35 was not in my list. It has no stealth and no aesa. It's a plane that bets everything on row power.

    It is being exported widely and will be a significant part of the Russian Air Force... and it as AESA radars start being widely deployed on Russian aircraft it will be fitted to Su-35s.

    The other will get them (aesa and stealth) just like the americans 20 years ago.

    You can't give a design stealth, and if it carries weapons externally then it is not stealthy... even the F-35 is not described as stealthy with external weapons fitted... only a moron or a European marketing department would call a fighter plane with external weapons stealthy because otherwise they would have to develop an actual stealth plane with internal weapons bays like a real stealth plane.

    You bollock on about Russia not having a stealth plane, but Europe don't have anything even near service... interesting that...

    See that's where you are biased. Aren't US mass producing stealth and aesa ? Yes they are. Aren't the US navy and french standardized ? Yes they are.

    The US mass producing Stealth and AESA does not make NATO standardised unless all NATO allies are using only US Stealth aircraft and US AESA radar elements... and they are not. How many F18s and F35s does the French Navy have in service to standardise with the US Navy?

    How many Rafales does the US Navy operate?

    You do understand what standardisation actually means don't you?

    It was said so by an official in an article posted here. It's not me guessing (something you do a lot).

    Lots of officials say lots of things that don't turn out to be correct, are you going to listen to them or are you going to use common sense?

    If Su-35s and MiG-31s are not stealthy, why would MiG-41s need to be?

    Except if they are supposed to operate over Europe or the US...

    Then why are they offering su30 with western made components ?

    Because India and some other countries request foreign items to be included.

    Why did they beg for french Catherine cameras for their t-90 ? Why did they beg for Thales components for their su-30SM ?

    Beg? Didn't they pay for them? Perhaps if they begged for Mistral carriers it would make more sense why they were not delivered...

    Why are they using US electronics in their S-400 ?

    If they did it was probably because they were available at the right price. I realise all American stuff is all American... their tanks have Belgian machine guns and British armour and German main guns, and electronics with components made in China or South Korea...

    Everytime it is successful.

    No it isn't.

    Those 187 F-22 would have destroyed the russian fleet of su27. That's why they quikly made the su35 and s-400.

    So why do they want 3,500 F-35s?

    They didn't even knew it could be used to make stealthy aircraft. They never used those maths. It was only theory for them. It's the US who had the idea of implementing it into aircraft design.

    It was just an interesting idea and the US turned it into a way of murdering people... you are quite right, the US contributions to civilisation are enormous... Hitler and Goebbels would be so jealous to see their toys to control and to spy and I would like to say they would not understand why they have such self control in limiting their use, but they clearly do not and wontonly murder civil rights activists and popular politicians that refuse to be bought by the west on a daily basis... I am sure Hitler would be jealous of the creativity and effort put in to developing weapons to kill ethnic groups around the world, and their expanding ability to collect information. I mean the US doesn't tell the EU to do what they are told because the EU respects them... they do so because the NSA likely has folders full of photos and recordings and evidence of overseas bank accounts.... like an American wikileaks and cayman island papers all rolled into one huge database at the fingertips of those in the Whitehouse... the last place you would want it to be.

    But keep cheering for the people destroying the real American dream and indeed the western ideals of human rights and family values... how is that going by the way...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:35 pm

    But russian fanboys are happy because it was a soviet guy who made the book.

    No, the Russian Fanboys are happy because the Americans were too stupid to work things out for themselves and in effect are no better than they claim those stupid Chinese are that can only copy and can't invent for themselves.

    I mean with stupid Russians making rusty planes and stupid Chinese that can only copy... why are people talking about the threat Russia and China pose to the west... it just does not make sense... unless the western view of the world is wrong...
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    Post  Azi on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:32 pm

    @Isos you are not neutral anymore and I have always valued your neutrality and your expertise!

    Isos wrote:It's not the french or the american who sold rusted migs.
    I remember rusted Humwees and ships for Ukraine and other east european allies Wink

    Isos wrote:Those 187 F-22 would have destroyed the russian fleet of su27. That's why they quikly made the su35 and s-400.
    In open unprotected area...YES! Combined with russian IADS...NO!

    Isos wrote:Then why are they offering su30 with western made components ? Why did they beg for french Catherine cameras for their t-90 ? Why did they beg for Thales components for their su-30SM ? Why are they using US electronics in their S-400 ?
    I think you don't get the point of technology transfer! USA is using in the F-35B russian technology of Yak company, american fanbois don't talk about it but it's true.

    If someone has a good product or technology you just want to get it as fast as you can, sometimes you steal the thechnology and sometimes you just buy the technology. The Catherine cameras were good for their time, so Russia buyed the technology. The same for F-35B and Yak company.

    If russian equiptment is soooo extreme crap...why China and other countries buy it? Turkey preferred S-400 over F-35...this should give a reason to think.

    Isos wrote:The other will get them (aesa and stealth) just like the americans 20 years ago.
    And again you forget the 10 lost years of economic disaster. Russia had simply no money in 90ies to afford a 5gen fighter, good AD systems, new cruisers etc. they had enough money to feed their soldiers...Yeltsin was a traitor!!!

    Now Russia is back again and with a more aggressive military role. Combined with IADS Su-27/35 is good enough to defend the homeland, but a scenario outside of Russia requires different equiptment. Russia now tries to project power, for that you need a special amount of "stealth".

    Isos wrote:
    but if you agree the White Swan doesn't need to be stealthy then why do you think the MiG-41 interceptor needs to be stealthy?

    I just look what is done, how it's used and what they are doing. Officials said it will incorporate stealth.
    Mig-41 will have NO STEALTH! It's not possible. The Mig-41 will be optimized for aerodynamic, low drag and nor for stealth...combining both is real problem. At Mach 4 no stealth coating will survive the heat at the edges of the aircraft.

    Whatever bullshit officials are talking about...no stealth!
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    Post  Azi on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:50 pm

    Isos wrote:What I see is Syrian and Russians dying and no response from any of them. Well, they called some isreli staff in Moscow to say them it was bad... Rolling Eyes

    The only one responding is Iran.
    Not a SINGLE russian soldiers died due to IDF strikes! Only due to complete incompetence of SAA AD-Specialists.

    Russia and Iran, both compete for influence in the region. Russia needs iranian sponsored milita, because SAA is incompetent and Iran needs russian air-support. But you can't trust Iran...NEVER and NEVER. Iran is ruled by a religious dictatorship, with a few small democratic elements...sooner or later they want to spread influence of Islam in Russia. Russia want to keep Iran out in Syria, but it's not possible, due to complete incompetence of SAA, so they tolerate the Iranians.

    If you keep an eye at the situation you will recognize that the relation between Russia and Iran is not very close. The Alawites in Syria are not really Shi'ites, only some far relatives. For Russia it would be a disaster to have the Alawites religious indoctrinated like the Shi'ites in Iran. At other hand they don't want to see Iran destabilized, because it's a neighbor, so the devil they know is a good devil Wink

    Syria is really complicated! pwnd
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:14 am

    @Isos you are not neutral anymore and I have always valued your neutrality and your expertise!

    I'm still neutral. I never said russia makes shit stuff and west very good one. It's just annoying that some people here can't even accept that US and generaly western stuff is sometime better than russian and they have some advanced in r&d than russia thanks to a better eco situation and far greater investement.

    In open unprotected area...YES! Combined with russian IADS...NO!

    Su-27 is an air superiority fighter than shoukd have won the supremacy over western europe. Now imagine its the su27 vs f-15/22 and patriots and US radars.

    If russian equiptment is soooo extreme crap...why China and other countries buy it? Turkey preferred S-400 over F-35...this should give a reason to think.

    I never said it was crap. I said they use same technologies 20 years after US. That's the reality. Stealth subsonic bombers, aesa and stealth multirole fighters, stealth frigates with a single multi task mast...

    You just compare the design philosophy of soviet and russia 90s with today's russia equipment and you will see that they are becoming a western military (not totally but they share lot with western philosophy).

    And again you forget the 10 lost years of economic disaster. Russia had simply no money in 90ies to afford a 5gen fighter, good AD systems, new cruisers etc. they had enough money to feed their soldiers...Yeltsin was a traitor!!!

    Now Russia is back again and with a more aggressive military role. Combined with IADS Su-27/35 is good enough to defend the homeland, but a scenario outside of Russia requires different equiptment. Russia now tries to project power, for that you need a special amount of "stealth".

    Yeltsin was their choice. Their shit. Their problem.

    I never said su-35 was bad. Even less in IADS.

    And to project power they want french designed Mistrals and US type of aircraft carriers (that most russian fanboys bash since 70 years). Hoo and the power projection is something very bad according to those same people who praise every move of russia. They say it is the neo colonialism of the despotic satanist western civilization.

    Mig-41 will have NO STEALTH! It's not possible. The Mig-41 will be optimized for aerodynamic, low drag and nor for stealth...combining both is real problem. At Mach 4 no stealth coating will survive the heat at the edges of the aircraft.

    Whatever bullshit officials are talking about...no stealth!

    Well if they are paid to say bullshit  dunno let them enjoy their salaries.

    Not a SINGLE russian soldiers died due to IDF strikes! Only due to complete incompetence of SAA AD-Specialists.

    The russian MoD was totally partial on that matter and showed the radar images and while Putin was saying it was an accident they blamed Israel. The israeli used that plane to hide their own few seconds before the hit.

    Iran is ruled by a religious dictatorship, with a few small democratic elements.

    Well according to some here, it is the heaven on earth Rolling Eyes ...

    If you keep an eye at the situation you will recognize that the relation between Russia and Iran is not very close.

    Well according to some here, Russia and Iran will unite and start WW3 against Western civilizations to fullfy their envy of seeing US destroyed stop US empire and bring peace among arabs who most if not all the time kill each other without the need of US intervention at all.
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    Post  Azi on Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:06 am

    Isos wrote:
    @Isos you are not neutral anymore and I have always valued your neutrality and your expertise!

    I'm still neutral. I never said russia makes shit stuff and west very good one. It's just annoying that some people here can't even accept that US and generaly western stuff is sometime better than russian and they have some advanced in r&d than russia thanks to a better eco situation and far greater investement.
    Ok...good to know Wink

    Isos wrote:Su-27 is an air superiority fighter than shoukd have won the supremacy over western europe. Now imagine its the su27 vs f-15/22 and patriots and US radars.
    At the time Su-27 was introduced it was a great fighter, then we have the 10 lost years. Without money no progress, no innovation...thanks to Yeltsin traitor and Co.

    I'm not sure what I should think about Patriot... it's a real expensive system and at paper it looks good, but in reality the system is a disaster (See Saudi Arabia yesterday!). It doesn't work against CM and drones, it failed against old ballistic missile. Will it work against fighter? That is the question.

    But yes the attacker is always in a bad position, here it comes to quantity and tactics. Let's not forget the real power of USA, Russia and a few other NATO countries is not only good equipment, the biggest assets are really skilled pilots.

    Isos wrote:I never said it was crap. I said they use same technologies 20 years after US. That's the reality. Stealth subsonic bombers, aesa and stealth multirole fighters, stealth frigates with a single multi task mast...

    You just compare the design philosophy of soviet and russia 90s with today's russia equipment and you will see that they are becoming a western military (not totally but they share lot with western philosophy).
    Russian/Soviet military is very traditional in matters of equiptment and technology. When "stealth" was introduced by USA in the 80ies and 90ies , they didn't saw the big step, because "stealth" means only low observable and stealth planes are still trackable with russian/soviet technology. But you are complete right, Russia was transforming it's army into a new modern intervention force and stealth is great to bomb the shit out of smaller countries without a good IADS. So the model for Russia was in some parts a modern western army, but now they are more efficient in some parts, than western armies....the student beats the teacher Wink

    Another point is, that stealth technology now is mature. Remember how much a single B-2 costs...the sum is just ridiculous. For the cost of 100 B-2 you don't have to fight a war, you can just buy the enemy Laughing The new B-21 is much cheaper...with this progress in technology and science stealth is sexy for Russia now and wasn't before.

    Isos wrote:Yeltsin was their choice. Their shit. Their problem.
    Yes...they were too naive! A few watched western advertisment and they were thinking streets in western countries are made of gold and houses made of chocolate, bullshit of this kind. Instead they lost their jobs, their dignity and nearly everything. And USA sponsored Yeltsin with money and they tried not to hide this fact.

    Isos wrote:The russian MoD was totally partial on that matter and showed the radar images and while Putin was saying it was an accident they blamed Israel. The israeli used that plane to hide their own few seconds before the hit.
    IDF was too aggressive and Russia pissed, but it was mistake of incompetent SAA. The rest is politics...saying A and meaning B.

    Isos wrote:Well according to some here, it is the heaven on earth Rolling Eyes ...
    It's one of the biggest shitholes on earth, together with Saudi Arabia. Different sides of hell, but still hell.

    If someone aks me where you want to live...in hellish zionist Israel or in paradise wonderland Iran? It would ALWAYS be Israel! Always! It's a moden western society. In Iran you will be condemned to death for a sexual relation with a muslim woman (Iranian women are really beautiful  respekt ) and Saudia Arabia (can't say they are beautiful, never saw the face...haha What a Face ) the same...it's not medieval it's worse! Iran is a bit better than Saudia Arabia but not that much.

    Isos wrote:Well according to some here,  Russia and Iran will unite and start WW3 against Western civilizations to fullfy their envy of seeing US destroyed stop US empire and bring peace among arabs who most if not all the time kill each other without the need of US intervention at all.
    Haha lol!
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:31 pm

    Su-27 is an air superiority fighter than shoukd have won the supremacy over western europe. Now imagine its the su27 vs f-15/22 and patriots and US radars.

    Su-27s mainly operate with the PVO and perhaps frontal aviation... there is no mission for them to gain and hold air superiority over enemy territory... you are confusing Russia with NATO.

    I said they use same technologies 20 years after US.

    And that is where you are wrong... the stealth the Russians are going to introduce is nothing like the stealth the US introduced 20 years ago because Russia is not trying to copy the US, it has its own needs. New Russian AESA radars wont be 20 year old technology... they will be using state of the art brand new materials that give much better performance than US AESA radars in service 20 years ago. There is no reason why the US couldn't do the same and upgrade their current AESA radars with the new materials to improve performance... and they probably will but neither will be 20 year old technology.

    You remind me of people saying Russia shouldn't bother with EMALS technology for their aircraft carrier programmes, they should just develop steam cats instead because they are a proven technology.

    That is like saying if you are developing a new sniper rifle you should start with a black powder model... the time and effort and money to design and build a steam catapult would not be that much different from developing and building an EMALS cat system, but a working EMALS cat system would be much more useful in terms of new materials and technology than a steam powered system... and they have no experience of either so neither would actually be easy.

    EMALS offers better performance and new technologies that will be useful in other areas...

    Stealth subsonic bombers, aesa and stealth multirole fighters, stealth frigates with a single multi task mast...

    Actually the Russians have stealthy tanks... the Americans had some 40t designs that never made it to service. The Armata and other vehicle families have kits to reduce their signature in radar and IR, so in that sense they are ahead of the Americans, but unlike the American Air Force not all their new fighters are stealthy, and unlike the US Navy not all their subs are nuclear powered...

    Russias needs are not the same as Americas needs, so there is no set path for the future.

    You are claiming that the Americans having 300 F-35 stealth fighters and 188 F-22 stealth fighters and most of their other fighters with AESA radars means the US is ahead, but why are you assuming the Russians even want an all stealth fighter fleet... even the Americans can't afford it and they print their own money and are in total denial about their economic position.

    You just compare the design philosophy of soviet and russia 90s with today's russia equipment and you will see that they are becoming a western military (not totally but they share lot with western philosophy).

    No, they don't... They are up to their second generation super soldier system in service and their third system by about 2022-2023, they are in the process of introducing new vehicle families to replace their cold war armour... something the west is no where even close to. They are introducing corvettes with the fire power of their own cold war destroyers, and communications and battle management capacities only their cruisers and carriers had.
    Their philosophy is defensive. They wont get thousands of fighters and AWACS platforms and inflight refuelling tankers to enable them to invade countries at will... they are building AWACS platforms and inflight refuelling aircraft to improve mobility of forces around their own territory.

    They haven't tried to cripple a country with economic sanctions or overthrow a democratically elected leader any time recently.

    And to project power they want french designed Mistrals and US type of aircraft carriers (that most russian fanboys bash since 70 years).

    They wanted a quick off the shelf solution to protect their own territory... the mistrals fitted the bill as something that was mature and had features that would make it a useful platform... they didn't allow for the slimy cowardice of the French leadership, so lesson learned there.

    And what US type carrier... their plans are for 70-80K ton carriers that carry AWACS aircraft and fighter planes... the opposite of US colonial carriers... optimised to attack baby milk factories world wide...

    Hoo and the power projection is something very bad according to those same people who praise every move of russia. They say it is the neo colonialism of the despotic satanist western civilization.

    The west has developed colonialism... use mobile military force to project power around the world to steal resources and energy and pay for the military force.

    What Russia wants is the ability to trade globally without the interference from the US. Russia and China signed a few deals with Venezuela and then the US tried to overthrow the democratically elected government there. Russia is not interested in taking over Venezuela and stealing its resources while the Venezuelan people starve... that is what the west has been doing to the world all these centuries... and despite all the rhetoric and propaganda that is what it continues to do. Russia wants to trade, but to do so it needs to access markets and to reach those markets it needs sea power... not to invade or bomb, but to assure access and the safety of allies that the west decides to crush so they can steal the resources instead.

    The russian MoD was totally partial on that matter and showed the radar images and while Putin was saying it was an accident they blamed Israel. The israeli used that plane to hide their own few seconds before the hit.

    They did, and the only reason the Russian plane was even in that airspace was because the Israelis claimed they were attacking elsewhere to make them go where they wanted so they could use them as cover.

    Clearly an evil cynical act by Israel to both attack Syria and to try to cause conflict between Syrian forces and Russian forces... so a snake acting like a snake.

    Well according to some here, it is the heaven on earth

    Well the west is no better... I am an athiest... why can't I marry as many people as I like... things have changed so I can marry a man or a woman, but why still only one at a time?

    The Christian view dominates in the west and is imposed on anyone.

    Well according to some here, Russia and Iran will unite and start WW3 against Western civilizations to fullfy their envy of seeing US destroyed stop US empire and bring peace among arabs who most if not all the time kill each other without the need of US intervention at all.

    If they do unite it will only be because bullying and violence from the west has forced them to cooperate against the west.

    There is no reason for Russia and Iran to become best buddies, nor for China and Iran or China and Russia... they can trade and have peaceful relations without joining up and trying to destroy anyone... most in the west think things are great now because the world needs to be ruled and who better to rule the world than the most advanced civilisation that there has ever been... the west... led by the US. They can't even balance their budget and they get money handed to them via their money being the defacto international currency, and they are still fucking things up... America couldn't lead an orgy in a brothel.

    Russia and China don't talk about domination or taking control of the world.... they talk about a multipolar world because they don't think any country should be telling other countries what to do.... you know democracy vs dictatorship.

    I know westspeak has ruined the english language so democracy and dictator have no meaning any more.


    I'm not sure what I should think about Patriot... it's a real expensive system and at paper it looks good, but in reality the system is a disaster (See Saudi Arabia yesterday!). It doesn't work against CM and drones, it failed against old ballistic missile. Will it work against fighter? That is the question.

    I seem to remember during one of the conflicts in Iraq or during a period between them it managed to shoot down a western fighter... I guess the IFF system is shit... and that it targeted another western fighter... I think it was an F-16 but it was carrying an ARM and managed to defend itself by taking out the patriot battery radar... so not really an amazing system.

    Yes...they were too naive! A few watched western advertisment and they were thinking streets in western countries are made of gold and houses made of chocolate, bullshit of this kind. Instead they lost their jobs, their dignity and nearly everything. And USA sponsored Yeltsin with money and they tried not to hide this fact.

    They believed western propaganda... so now democracy and american values are a dirty concept because they know they are empty slogans.... well ask the Ukraine about the utopia that the west brings...

    If someone aks me where you want to live...in hellish zionist Israel or in paradise wonderland Iran? It would ALWAYS be Israel! Always! It's a moden western society.

    Tell that to the palestinians... things are going to get interesting there soon when Trump reveals his deal of the century...

    In Iran you will be condemned to death for a sexual relation with a muslim woman (Iranian women are really beautiful respekt ) and Saudia Arabia (can't say they are beautiful, never saw the face...haha What a Face ) the same...it's not medieval it's worse! Iran is a bit better than Saudia Arabia but not that much.

    Walk around any western country in public in the nude and you will get arrested... everybody has standards of what is acceptable and what is not... in the west we claim our standards are right and anyone with higher standards is bad, oppressive.... and lower standard is bad... insane...

    Why don't you go to those countries and tell them their rules are wrong and western rules are right... the west has been doing that for centuries.

    Of course they might reply that the people in those regions killed by the west might prefer to hide their faces rather than have western freedoms but get murdered at any moment with a drone strike.

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    Post  jhelb on Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:New Russian AESA radars wont be 20 year old technology... they will be using state of the art brand new materials that give much better performance than US AESA radars

    As much as the Russian in me want to believe what you just said.....what brand new materials are you talking about here ?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:27 pm

    Their photonic radars don't use radio waves so they likely wont use GaN...

    BTW just looked up AESA radars on Wiki and the first Soviet active phased array radar was the 5N65 from the early 1960s but they didn't put it in to service... it was part of a SAM system.

    The funny thing is that it also lists the firsts... you know... the stuff in service first and guess what...

    first military ground-based AESA was the J/FPS-3... Japanese... 1995...

    first series production ship-based AESA was the OPS-24... Japanese... 1988

    first airborne series production AESA was the EL/M-2075 Phalcon on a Boeing 707... the Chilean Air Force ...1994.

    first AESA on a combat aircraft was the J/APG-1 introduced on the Mitsubishi F-2 in 1995. Japan...

    first AESA on a missile is the seeker head for the AAM-4B, an air-to-air missile carried by the Mitsubishi F-2 Japan....

    America leading the way as usual...


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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:14 pm

    Su-27s mainly operate with the PVO and perhaps frontal aviation... there is no mission for them to gain and hold air superiority over enemy territory... you are confusing Russia with NATO.

    They were supposed to protect bomber behind enemy lines. F-22 would have destroyed them.

    There is no reason why the US couldn't do the same and upgrade their current AESA radars with the new materials to improve performance... and they probably will but neither will be 20 year old technology.

    Yeah but US have 20 years of experience with them. Russia no. It means more tests, more design, better accuracy ...

    Your comparisin with rifles is useless. Radars are thousand time more complicated than a rifle.

    Actually the Russians have stealthy tanks... the Americans had some 40t designs that never made it to service.

    Soviet tank were made in huge numbers and were designed to last few moment on the battlefield. Crew condition wasn't an issue. Armata is adopting western philosophy : protect crew, expensive but higher epected life, connected ...

    but why are you assuming the Russians even want an all stealth fighter fleet...

    They would love it. But they are facing the same issue as most nato military. It is costly.

    No, they don't... They are up to their second generation super soldier system in service and their third system by about 2022-2023

    Say thank you to the french.

    Their philosophy is defensive.

    They clearly said they want power projection capacity but can't afford it.

    And what US type carrier... their plans are for 70-80K ton carriers that carry AWACS aircraft and fighter planes... the opposite of US colonial carriers... optimised to attack baby milk factories world wide...

    That's exactly what US have since the 40s. And that's exactly what Soviet criticized like your doing here. And that's exactly for what kuzntsov was send in Syria, bombing a non state group.

    Russia is not interested in taking over Venezuela and stealing its resources while the Venezuelan people starve...

    They are starving because Maduro is a total failure. And Moscow is supporting this failure. Once the people remove him, Moscow can forget Venezuela.

    They did, and the only reason the Russian plane was even in that airspace was because the Israelis claimed they were attacking elsewhere to make them go where they wanted so they could use them as cover.

    Clearly an evil cynical act by Israel to both attack Syria and to try to cause conflict between Syrian forces and Russian forces... so a snake acting like a snake.

    Yes and russia didn't protect their military. They had them on S-400 screens. They let them go.

    When you have a snake in your home you remove it.

    . I am an athiest... why can't I marry as many people as I like... things have changed so I can marry a man or a woman, but why still only one at a time?

    The Christian view dominates in the west and is imposed on anyone.

    Not really. In US you can marry many women in some places. In Iran a man can marry many woman but the woman shut her mouth up. Maybe you should send your mother there if it is so good.

    Russia and China don't talk about domination or taking control of the world.... they talk about a multipolar world because they don't think any country should be telling other countries what to do.... you know democracy vs dictatorship.

    The first consideres its neighbours as its whores and don't want them to talk with west. The second consideres that other country are part of its territory even if they 2000km away and the only thing they want is not to stop US but take their place.

    Western democracies are not perfect but compare to China and Russia ...

    I'm not sure what I should think about Patriot... it's a real expensive system and at paper it looks good, but in reality the system is a disaster (See Saudi Arabia yesterday!). It doesn't work against CM and drones, it failed against old ballistic missile. Will it work against fighter? That is the question.

    Patriot proved to be capable of destroying su-24. Something Russia uses in large numbers.

    This system was never designed to hit BM and cruise missiles. Only pac-3 has some limited capabilities against them.

    I seem to remember during one of the conflicts in Iraq or during a period between them it managed to shoot down a western fighter... I guess the IFF system is shit... and that it targeted another western fighter... I think it was an F-16 but it was carrying an ARM and managed to defend itself by taking out the patriot battery radar... so not really an amazing system.

    Then it's time to send those mig-31 at the garbage. Few months ago one mig-31 destroyed another one with its r-33. I wonder how you will respond to this scratch .


    They believed western propaganda... so now democracy and american values are a dirty concept because they know they are empty slogans.... well ask the Ukraine about the utopia that the west brings...

    It wasn't better when it was a pro russian government. Baltics, Poland, Romania are in far better eco situation now thry are in nato and EU than previously in USSR. The fact that they are so afraid of become part of russia again is the only proof you need.


    Walk around any western country in public in the nude and you will get arrested

    Send a naked woman in the streets of Paris she will pay a bill of tens of euros.
    Send a naked woman in the streets of Teheran or saudi arabia and she will be killed.

    Yeah they are a fucking exemple. Such a good society ...

    The west has developed colonialism...

    Go check history again. Ecery civilization developed colonialism. Asian were big colonizators just like egyptians, arabs, russians, soviets (I think in your language you call them liberators Rolling Eyes ), westerns, amerindians before west goes there, scandinvians, japanese ...

    BTW if you think colonialism is so bad you may act in consequence and go back to england because new zeland wasn't a coubtry full of white back in the time.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:22 am

    They were supposed to protect bomber behind enemy lines. F-22 would have destroyed them.

    What F-22s? They would all be in the US trying to shoot down Bears and Blackjacks and all those cruise missiles...

    Yeah but US have 20 years of experience with them. Russia no. It means more tests, more design, better accuracy ...

    Your comparisin with rifles is useless. Radars are thousand time more complicated than a rifle.

    Of course... the Russians know nothing at all about radars and the US leads the way.

    Is Turkey going to demand US radars with those S-400 systems or will they just make their own?

    Soviet tank were made in huge numbers and were designed to last few moment on the battlefield. Crew condition wasn't an issue. Armata is adopting western philosophy : protect crew, expensive but higher epected life, connected ...

    More western propaganda... the Soviets didn't care about crews... that is why the KV-1 and T-34 had no armour to start with, and why they only had more tanks that the rest of the world combined at the start of WWII because the Soviets wanted their soldiers to walk everywhere.

    The BTR series was derided in the west... till they copied it with their amazing Stryker series of vehicles... even their airborne forces are fully mechanised but western airborne forces are not... don't they care about their soldiers?


    They would love it. But they are facing the same issue as most nato military. It is costly.

    Bullshit. If they wanted an all stealth air force where is their F-35 cheaper lightweight numbers stealth fighter?

    Say thank you to the french.

    Can't possibly have anything to do with the French.... because they were delivered on time.

    They clearly said they want power projection capacity but can't afford it.

    When?

    That's exactly what US have since the 40s. And that's exactly what Soviet criticized like your doing here. And that's exactly for what kuzntsov was send in Syria, bombing a non state group.

    Bullshit. The Russians don't need a colonial cruiser to invade and keep their minions in line like the US does, the Russians need an air defence carrier that can protect Russian surface groups operating world wide. In syria they were merely testing blind bombing equipment added to the Su-33s... the same system added to the Su-24 and other platforms.

    They are starving because Maduro is a total failure.

    Who is starving? The Venezuelan economy is based on oil exports... and no previous government did a thing to change that... even the ones the US supported.

    Now that the price of oil is going up because of problems in Saudi Arabia their income should grow and their problems will be solved by the orange man in the white house.

    And Moscow is supporting this failure. Once the people remove him, Moscow can forget Venezuela.

    Moscow is supporting the democratically elected leader of Venezuela.... just like the majority of Venezuelans who voted for him... it is why he is still in power... because lying bastards claiming there is starving there are full of shit... how on earth could he possibly remain in power if that were true... but obviously if you want to drink the kool aide you become addicted and the truth or reason become unimportant.


    Yes and russia didn't protect their military. They had them on S-400 screens. They let them go.

    So you are saying the Russian S-400 battery should have shot down Israeli F-16s because the Syrians shot down a Russian Il-20 elint aircraft... too much kool aide rots the brain it seems.

    When you have a snake in your home you remove it.

    And when it is not your home you provide the owner with the tools they need to kill snakes on their property... currently it keeps the snakes out but it likes to sit next door and spit venom over the fence when it can.

    Not really. In US you can marry many women in some places. In Iran a man can marry many woman but the woman shut her mouth up. Maybe you should send your mother there if it is so good.

    In several US states having sex with animals is only a misdemeanour, doesn't make them less oppressive than Iran now does it?


    The first consideres its neighbours as its whores and don't want them to talk with west.

    Russias neighbours are whores... they are doing nothing to take them back... the west can do as it pleases with them.

    The second consideres that other country are part of its territory even if they 2000km away and the only thing they want is not to stop US but take their place.

    Don't understand what you are trying to say here. Probably don't agree with you anyway.

    Western democracies are not perfect but compare to China and Russia ...

    Western democracies are not democracies... laws are created via bribes so the rich are in control and the people have no say at all.

    Compared with Russia and China... they seem to be improving the future for their citizens without selling out to big business and the very very rich... that alone makes them better.

    Patriot proved to be capable of destroying su-24. Something Russia uses in large numbers.

    When?

    Patriot shot down a Tornado in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but was destroyed when it locked on an F-16... Russian and Soviet Fencers are armed with better ARMs than F-16s are.

    This system was never designed to hit BM and cruise missiles.

    Which explains why it was so shit at that, but it seems it is not so great at conventional aircraft targets either.

    Then it's time to send those mig-31 at the garbage. Few months ago one mig-31 destroyed another one with its r-33. I wonder how you will respond to this

    Mistakes happen. The west still uses Patriot. The MiG-31 is still the worlds most capable interceptor.

    It wasn't better when it was a pro russian government.

    What? The Ukraine has never had a pro Russian government. When 70 percent of your income comes from trade ties with a large neighbouring country a great way to fuck yourself is to cut all ties without anything to replace that trade link.

    Baltics, Poland, Romania are in far better eco situation now thry are in nato and EU than previously in USSR. The fact that they are so afraid of become part of russia again is the only proof you need.

    Yeah, big bad scary Russia... those rats will make all sorts of claims... Russia is better off without relations with such countries.

    Send a naked woman in the streets of Paris she will pay a bill of tens of euros.
    Send a naked woman in the streets of Teheran or saudi arabia and she will be killed.

    Yeah they are a fucking exemple. Such a good society ...

    Wear a high viz jacket in Paris and get an eye removed or a hand blown off... democracy.

    BTW if you think colonialism is so bad you may act in consequence and go back to england because new zeland wasn't a coubtry full of white back in the time.

    Why would I go to that shit hole... I was born in New Zealand, and having seen the results of colonialism I will of course criticise it... I wont gloss it over and say shit like.... well the spanish would have killed all the natives so we are not so bad. The British settlers here were censored . They were thieving censored and murdering censored and rapists and their crimes should not be forgotten or ignored by me or you.

    Ecery civilization developed colonialism.

    So which countries did the Australian Aboriginies colonise, or the Chinese for that matter, or how about the native American indians...
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am

    Listen, you guys waste time with a child.  He couldn't even get the near basic of AESA radar modules correct, but he talks as if he knows what he is saying.  He didn't know where modules are placed, what kind of modules and knows the concept behind the design and manufacturing of it.  But talks about "experience" as if it really matters when it doesn't.  Matter of fact is, China has no experience in AESA but already produces GaN modules and producing their own AESA radars too.

    Its sad when people just waste breath debating with someone who dances around the same concept over and over again, regardless if he was proven wrong and was shown how ridiculous his claims are.

    Its simple.  Learn the basics first of how they are designed and how they are placed, then we can continue.

    Oh, and no, experience means squat.  Technology is what matters here, and they obtained it long ago.  Modules makes the difference, not the experience.  And the modules are built no different than that in the US, Europe or Asia.  Vice versa.

    Might I suggest we just mute him, and move on? Rather than derailing or dancing in circles?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:33 pm

    What F-22s? They would all be in the US trying to shoot down Bears and Blackjacks and all those cruise missiles...

    They would have a thousabd of them if USSR didn't collapse.

    Of course... the Russians know nothing at all about radars and the US leads the way.

    Is Turkey going to demand US radars with those S-400 systems or will they just make their own?

    I never said they no know nothing about radars.


    Turkey is pissed off of not getting the f-35.

    More western propaganda... the Soviets didn't care about crews... that is why the KV-1 and T-34 had no armour to start with, and why they only had more tanks that the rest of the world combined at the start of WWII because the Soviets wanted their soldiers to walk everywhere.

    Compare the numbers of germans tanks crew that died and soviet ones.

    The one who separeted the munition from the crew were the americans. And now russians are doing it too.

    Bullshit. If they wanted an all stealth air force where is their F-35 cheaper lightweight numbers stealth fighter?

    Mig didn't produced it. Now they are stuck with the mig35 that is just an upgraded mig29. The airforce would more than happy to get a single engine small and light fighter. With the order of 76 su-57 and the other sukhois, its very unlikely they buy more than a handfull of mig-35.

    Can't possibly have anything to do with the French.... because they were delivered on time.

    Very funny. Russian fanboys are easily trigered when they hear the truth about Russia buying stuff from France. Thermal cameras, HUD, Felin system, engines for their mighty civilian planes (which are bought only because they use french engines) ....

    Try again.

    When?

    They want a blue water navy. You don't use a blue water navy to defend your borders.

    In syria they were merely testing blind bombing equipment added to the Su-33s... the same system added to the Su-24 and other platforms.

    You don't send a carrier to test a targeting system. They wabted to show the world they can attack far from their home with a carrier and they are back in the game. They failed and lost 50 million worth of aircraft.

    Moscow is supporting the democratically elected leader of Venezuela....

    Not really. They want to oppose the US. But Maduro is a failure with or without US intervention. He will be removed one day and people will see russia as the one who helped him. And the support to maduro is very weak, they eveb removed their staff because Maduro doesn't pay the russian companies.

    So you are saying the Russian S-400 battery should have shot down Israeli F-16s because the Syrians shot down a Russian Il-20 elint aircraft... too much kool aide rots the brain it seems.

    Syrian targeted israeli. Israeli used the il-20 as a protection. Russia should have destroyed them.

    And when it is not your home you provide the owner with the tools they need to kill snakes on their property... currently it keeps the snakes out but it likes to sit next door and spit venom over the fence when it can.

    The snake is in is the garden and still biting.

    Western democracies are not democracies... laws are created via bribes so the rich are in control and the people have no say at all.

    Yeah people have a lot to say in China and iran. Twisted Evil Those in charge in these countries are poor, they eat salades at every meal whike the people rides in 40k$ cars and drinks french wine. Rolling Eyes

    You shoukd go live their if western societies suck so much. And brig MikeTheterrible with you. Very good idea no ?


    When?

    Patriot shot down a Tornado in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but was destroyed when it locked on an F-16... Russian and Soviet Fencers are armed with better ARMs than F-16s are.

    Israeli partriot destroyed syrian su-24.

    Mistakes happen. The west still uses Patriot. The MiG-31 is still the worlds most capable interceptor.

    Of course a friend kill from a patriot means the patriot is shit. A friend kill from a mig is a mistake.

    The thing is that durig war the crew is more stressed. The thing on their screen can be a enemy with ARM so they want it to be removed fast. This mig-31 kill was during an exercice so its even worse.

    Wear a high viz jacket in Paris and get an eye removed or a hand blown off... democracy.

    There were 44 manifestations from yellow vests in entire france. Medias were there just like some asshole that wanted to destroy everything and just like some cops that wanted to use their weapons for no reason. But at the end it shows how we are free to express our opinions.

    You do the same in China or iran and they bring in the army. If chinese and iranians are happy with that it's good for me. But don't me tell they are a free people.

    So which countries did the Australian Aboriginies colonise, or the Chinese for that matter, or how about the native American indians...

    I'm an expert but I know that american indians used to fight btw them and it was very uggly. They are not the peacefull people that many believes they were.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Listen, you guys waste time with a child.  He couldn't even get the near basic of AESA radar modules correct, but he talks as if he knows what he is saying.  He didn't know where modules are placed, what kind of modules and knows the concept behind the design and manufacturing of it.  But talks about "experience" as if it really matters when it doesn't.  Matter of fact is, China has no experience in AESA but already produces GaN modules and producing their own AESA radars too.

    Its sad when people just waste breath debating with someone who dances around the same concept over and over again, regardless if he was proven wrong and was shown how ridiculous his claims are.

    Its simple.  Learn the basics first of how they are designed and how they are placed, then we can continue.

    Oh, and no, experience means squat.  Technology is what matters here, and they obtained it long ago.  Modules makes the difference, not the experience.  And the modules are built no different than that in the US, Europe or Asia.  Vice versa.

    Might I suggest we just mute him, and move on? Rather than derailing or dancing in circles?

    You proved nothing. Fighter mounted aesa is still different from your Nebo exemple. Your linked didn't prove that they use same elements. Even if they use the same, size matters and its much more harder to make a small radar than a big one. Specially for cooling it. Nebo is deployed since years while they still have no aiborne mounted radars. Byelka was still development last year. If nebo and byelka are the same thing they would have done it in 1 or 2 months. The fact they didn't prove your claims are total bullshit.

    I don't dance around anything. All my claims are backed by real proof. Yours not really. Your only argument is to talk like you know everything and say "kid" when you have no argument.

    The guy from twitter that I quote in Syrian war thread said that chinese radars sucks. And they are not even using their aesa but basic ones. So there is a guy that works for syrian air defence that tests in a real war those radars who said they sucks and there is you, a rondom guy who has family that works in radars who says they are very good. I will believe the syrian guy.

    Experience is usefull in engineering. If you think you need some engineers that understand the physics of radars to build very good one then you should go back to school.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:01 pm

    If I resume what you say Russia waited for aesa to be cheaper (and for stealth too I presume ? ). Is it correct?

    Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    A su-35 is something like 25 million $ according to MikeTheterrible who saw that in the contract signed by the russian air force.

    So a su-57 is 3-4 times more expensive than a su35.

    US f-15 are ~100 million and f-22 ~300 million. 3-4 times also.

    It seems that Russia is facing the same issues 20 years later.


    In terms of leading scientific fields, western companies are faaaar from any chinese or russian ones. Specially for the civil productions. Those investment in new materials and electronics for weapons are directly reinjected in the civilian products. That's why they are leaders and russia and china not.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:47 pm

    Isos continuing to dig himself deeper and deeper  Very Happy

    Yeah they're "leaders"...that must be why they're flapping around like headless chickens trying desperately to sabotage development of Russia and China.

    Overpriced "Superior tech" marketed to a happy customer
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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:32 pm

    Of course they will sabotage Russia and China. Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.

    Underpriced russian and chinese tech isn't doing better. It isn't doing anything actually. If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Western products rely on things we can control from a to z. Any problem in those poor countries that produce for us and they make a regime change. Russia wants to play to much USSR style, they get sanctionned. China wants takes the lead in something US sanction them.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.


    Last edited by Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:42 pm

    Isos wrote:In terms of leading scientific fields, western companies are faaaar from any chinese or russian ones. Specially for the civil productions. Those investment in new materials and electronics for weapons are directly reinjected in the civilian products. That's why they are leaders and russia and china not.
    No sorry that's bullshit! Im scientist and most companies are doing ZERO, I repeat...ZERO for the research! Basic research is done at institutes and universities. And here is Russia quite good. By the way science is really international, scientist communicate with each other and they often attend conferences. Companies just buy the technology and refines the technology for a specific use. Military research is done in some "special institutes", or civilian working groups are obliged to keep silent, if the research is done at a university. The results of the research are later transfered to companies, in whatever way possible.
    The research in companies looks more like...oh our IRST has a range of 50 km, let's try 52 km...here we have Aspirin, let's add some fany taste to it...our mobile has 2 cameras, let's add a third one and let's see what coool stuff we can do with it.

    By the way...I have to read a lot of papers and journals (chemistry) and the best publications are western, japanese and russian/soviet publications. There is no difference in quality between russian papers and papers from western countries, only quantity is different. Really crap are chinese and indian papers, after a few minutes reading you realize it's complete bullshit (96%). African papers are really, really, really exotic and not really good, most are in french language and not translated o.O

    An example...
    In Darmstadt in Germany the GSI (Society for Heavy Ion Research) are building a new acceleration ring and nearly all magnets and other high tech components coming from Russia. This is astonishing, because many consider Russia to be Nigeria or some other african 3. world country, only additional with atomic bombs in possession.

    The only thing that russian companies really lacks are a good distribution in other countries. The Superjet was in western countries a flop, not because it's a bad jet...the Superjet is a great airplane, but the distribution of spare parts in western countries was a disaster! Every day a jet is grounded the company makes minus. So Russia have to learn more advertisment and good distribution, than creating high tech products. Markets are very traditional, it's not easy for foreign companies to win a market...they have to spend a lot of money for advertisment and need patience.

    ---

    Companies like Lockheed Martin, or bureaus like Sukhoi etc...they are not doing any basic research, they create products. In the end they assemble selfstyled or buyed parts to weapon systems. Of course they do some research...but it's no basic research, like creating a quantum radar. Quantum technology is developed by civilian universities. We should not mistake apples for pears.

    But you are right in the point that western products are of really high quality, because the companies have a lot of expertise and experience. Russian products are not bad at all, when China and India rely often on russian products, the can't be so bad...India has full access to western weapon market.


    Last edited by Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:47 pm

    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).
    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:06 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Isos wrote: Russia waited for aesa to be cheaper (and for stealth too I presume ? ). Is it correct?


    Not, the Federation Institutes not expected АФАР, rather having pioneered electronically scanned array and computed, at reason, that improvement in ПФАР technology would have granted superiority in the most important parameters over coevian АФАР at a fraction of the cost, design today АФАР for fighter aircraft -multi band ones- only as a transient solution waiting for the completion of omni band vehicle-blended radars from the "РОФАР" program ,with a level of performace a whole order of magnitude superior to the most advanced  АФАР and ПФАР today operative worldwide.

    About the so called "stealth" technology i have wrote several times about its origin in the Soviet times with hundreds of publications by part of dozen of titan names of Soviet Science the majority of which is still today covered by State's secret and how this very deep theoretical understanding of the Physics involved and all the related complex mathematical modeling (well beyond what publied with Soviet Scientifical Commision approval by comrade П.Я́. Уфи́мцев with itsd physical theory of diffraction that also thanks to its personal involvment have given birth in the USA to the modern low observable vehicles) without any peer, allow our Institutes to compute with almost absolute accuracy the effective scattering area of any object today produced abroad or domestically and those effective area of scattering are often even 2 or 3 order of magnitude greater than the comical figures usually circulating in public environment or for PR purposes.

    Therefore none more than us know the real....instead of phantasious..... impact of the "stealth" on the detection and acquisition ranges when confronted with advanced radars and at different bands, an effect that is doomed to reduce even furtherly in the next decade.
    Therefore you will never see a domestic military product ,not now nad even less in the future, that will sacrifice other most important and long standing parameters features to reduce effective area of scattering over the threshold where it become advantageous only for the company producing it.

       



    Yeah so your PESA radars are as good as other AESA and your photonic radars are almost ready and it will see stealth easily. So why is su-57 stealth and has a aesa like f22 which makes it 3-4 times more expensive than a su-35 ?

    US have more experience with stealth than you. Geometry of the plane, RAM (which includes materials and paint). Soviet had the first but not the second. The first can be studied but second needs to be created and then tested. If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.

    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.

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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:15 am

    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink

    Well you shouldn't compare. That will hurt some here.

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    The first one supply almost every country with thousand of planes (military and civilian) every year
    The second sold less than 100 every years and its only civilian plane is mostly using foreign parts and is not even bought by russians.

    That's not the point actually. They desperatly need more export clients and to sell in bigger numbers because every new technology is more expensive than the previous and needs more money for r&d. Su-57 is an exemple. It's not even produce for russian but is already proposed for export.

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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 am

    Isos wrote:US have more experience with stealth than you. Geometry of the plane, RAM (which includes materials and paint). Soviet had the first but not the second. The first can be studied but second needs to be created and then tested. If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.
    USSR had experience in stealth, both geometry and RAM. The Ch-101 is a stealth CM and research dates back to beginning of the 80ies. New designs like Mig1.44 were supposed to have a real small RCS, compared to older legacy fighters, but soviet designers never sacrificed aerodynamic capabilities for stealth.

    By the way...first RAM dates back to 2. WW! The snorkel of german submarines were coated with RAM. So RAM is very old, only the concept of geometry is really new in designing stealth planes. Okay, now more RAM coatings are available, than 40 or 50 years ago.

    Isos wrote:
    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.
    The concept of stealth is that stealth airplanes don't use the radar, they have other "eyes" in the sky...AWACS, another stealth plane with radar in LPI mode or a legacy fighter with good radar. This makes the other stealth aircraft nearly invisible in X-Band Radar. The problem is if the "eye" is hit by a missile, because the eye is not invisible. That was clear from beginning to end for soviet scientist, that the "eye" is the weakest point in stealth technology, and AWACS could be hit by large distance from Russian IADS. And that was also clear for USA, so first strike would be a nonstealthy saturation attack against Russian IADS, after that stealth aicrafts could fly more or less free.

    The problem...USSR rated their IADS very strong, they had no real need and hurry for stealth. The USA rated their attack capabilities very strong and relied on stealth. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as we can see in Kosovo War 1999.

    Russian army has now a different concept of using stealth, than 20 years before. The concept is more...let's write aggressive. And they take advantage of really crappy AD-Systems of NATO countries working in X-Band. It's funny that western countries don't try to counter their own technology. What a Face
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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:46 am

    Isos wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink

    Well you shouldn't compare. That will hurt some here.

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    The first one supply almost every country with thousand of  planes (military and civilian) every year
    The second sold less than 100 every years and its only civilian plane is mostly using foreign parts and is not even bought by russians.

    That's not the point actually. They desperatly need more export clients and to sell in bigger numbers because every new technology is more expensive than the previous and needs more money for r&d. Su-57 is an exemple. It's not even produce for russian but is already proposed for export.

    In every Boeing and Airbus russian parts are inside!!! Boeing spends over 1 billion US-$ for titanium parts per year, build in Russia. The parts are build in Russia, not only the titanium comes from Russia. Boeing has a joint venture, the "Ural Boeing Manufacturing". Boeing has also a design center in Russia with 1200 employees.

    No titanium, no new planes! But it's funny that Russia is not playing the sanctions game in this part of economy Wink so they prefer to do reliable biznjezz Wink

    I hope you now understand the problem...Boeing/Airbus sells to everyone the planes, but Sukhoi can't because they need first a distribution system for spare parts. A good distribution system is more complicated than building one perfect product. And by the way...western planes are more expensive, than russian ones Wink so with a good distribution system and quality near to wetsren planes they will have good chance.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:22 am

    You mean service system, not distribution.

    Right now that is what Borisov has said is being done - coming up with a strong service structure within Russia (first) for all civil jets of Russian origin.

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