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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:14 am

    LMFS wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1

    India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"
    Better idea: sell it to Pakistan and let them show India how stealth it is What a Face
    .....


    Are you trying to win Vlad Tepes Overkill Award?

    Even F-16 is too much stealth for India, Su-57 would be torture porn Cool
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:46 am

    The British invented concentration camps...
    In the US, Indian reservations were in that category & appeared earlier.
    https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/indian-reservations

    Hitler & Himmler learned a lesson from that.
    As an exception to the rule, Canada under the British was a lot less violent than the US in its Indian(Native American, or Aboriginal) policy. The RCMP handled all disputes & tried to arrest only the "guilty parties", instead attacking entire camps like the US Cavalry did. There, better named "reserves" were established.
    After the 1867 purchase, Alaska Natives had it easy, as there was no big influx of White immigrants willing to settle there as in the lower 48.
    History shows that all big countries (by population & territory), even not formal empires, r won & held together by force.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:53 am

    In the US, Indian reservations were in that category & appeared earlier.

    Concentration camp =/= Reservation or Reserved native lands... the key is who is in control and who runs the places and the purpose of the places... and conditions thereof.

    Or are you suggesting being at Summer camp and in an insane asylum are the same thing... while their might be similarities I can assure you there are also fundamental differences too...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:39 am

    I know far a fact that although they declare Indian Nations independent, Federal & state laws still apply there. The state of New York tried to tax tobacco sales to non-Indians but the state police was prevented from enforcing it.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newyork-tobacco-idUSTRE74865R20110509

    The Natives always fight for their rights in USA.
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-05-13-mn-1674-story.html
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/226387/AGENTS-HELD-THEN-RELEASED-AFTER-CASINO-RAID.html
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/227932/ARIZONA-INDIANS-FEDERAL-OFFICIALS-STILL-IN-STANDOFF.html

    The pipeline saga isn't over yet:
    https://apnews.com/081cb7ff366549fb996ffec970fe0684
    https://www.narf.org/cases/keystone/


    R there Maori lands not subject to NZ laws & Wellington?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:58 am

    Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun


    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.
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    Post  medo on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:03 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1

    India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

    At first, India must prove, that their pilots could hit the hill with guided bombs…. lol1

    Why bother with India? Let them develop their own fifth gen fighter, when they are so smart. Just look at Tejas. After 30+ years of development, everything inside is foreign made and technology from nineties.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:15 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1


    I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that  they left the FGFA program.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:10 am

    India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:18 am

    Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun

    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.
    For India's sake I hope planers are not as stupid as these media guys and I assume this scenario you propose is what will happen probably. Su-57 is the only 5G plane available to India and also probably the best and one of the cheapest too, with ToT and a history of trust and positive cooperation with the developer, it is simply a no brainer to go for it. But there is a sector of media and apparently defence guys too that makes too much noise and are clearly putting a spoke in India's wheels by creating all kinds of fake speculations against Russian armament. I have no doubt who is their owner, they give themselves away using the same stupid arguments of Western media. Indian society would do well calling them out for what they are.

    bolshevik345 wrote:I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that they left the FGFA program.
    True! lol1
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:46 pm

    Hole wrote:India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?

    Recent news from France:

    French Rafale Jets Grounded After Passenger Was Accidentally Ejected From A Two-Seater Last Week Return To Flight
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:50 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    LMFS wrote:

    Turkey already has advanced plans for the TF-X, but actually using the Su-57 airframe instead would be much better. They could unify their fleet in one single true multirole plane at a fraction of the development cost and still have the stuffing of their own liking, pretty much a "do it yourself 5G fighter kit" from Sukhoi Razz

    Turkey appear to have got into bed with BAE to develop from scratch a stealth fighter but that is a decade away.

    Just think about the impact of a Su-35ET assembled in Turkey/UK with Turkish/British electronics, radar, weapons and engines. Long term replacement for the Tornado, so in comes the Germans and Italians.

    We can dream Very Happy

    Every plane where UK was involved sucked. Su-35 with british help will suck just like typhoon suck or f-35 or harrier or anything else they made.

    They will sign contracts, turkey will pay, and the project will be dead as US will impose sanctions and destroy their economy, UK will keep the money.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:15 pm

    Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun


    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.

    Yeah (responding to "medo"), he seems to be a sympathizer for Pakistan who supported militancy towards USSR and what is with some of you that come from countries that are on their knee's throughout their history serving other powers and talking big on these forums (seriously NZ, Australia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia e.t.c....get real)? India may be a shit hole but you pale Vs its existence in history. You realize that Pakistan pretty much lost every war miserably that they fought post 1948 with India. There are only 4 sovereign or semi-sovereign countries in the world today imho....USA, Russia, China and India....rest are doing their own thing standing on their knees.

    Ofcourse the Indian press excels in feeding stupidity and empty patriotism to their population. However Pakistan is a failed country and it has no future, no comparison with India on any metric. Just because the Indian fighter was shotdown does not mean anything....Russian planes were shotdown by 1000 times lesser powers recently, did Russia do anything symmetric in reaction? If sane politicians act like some of you think they should then there is no need for the existence of real strategists and we can all go back to fighting tribal wars. Sorry off topic...I just could not resist responding to this member as he has been very consistent in his pro Pakistan opinions in an immature way. You realize Russia does not give a shit about Pakistan? Russian's are smart when they are not corrupt bunch like Yeltsin regime and would deal with their partners practically and they will play along with Indians just like they did for 60 years. You have 100's of posts on this forum and most of your non-technical analysis is trash and knee jerky feel to it.

    As far as Su-57 is concerned and India's participation goes, at best Indians may offer some buggy integration but beyond that they have no chops to do real and respectable contribution as of now and probably not in near future either. Russia is in it for money and not for solutions from India....not sure why some of you are getting all emotional.....Indian media is not Indian government (not that it is any better). It is not a result of talentless Indian's as you can see they contribute a lot in the countries they immigrate into....not talking about back office work but academia, patents, research, management e.t.c. The reason why the same advancement does not happen in India is because the personal integrity is not something most even consciously pay attention there anymore when doing their work (ethics are lost under centuries of foreign occupation) and neither does the system demands it from them. From top to bottom, it has evolved into a "nothing sacred to protect" country in a real sense (economic, quality and integrity sense). Only consolable thing is that it did not devolve into a mindless terrorist friendly country like Pakistan and so many other Western (yes playing their dirty politics and butchering people) or Middle Eastern countries....I am new to forum, please move it to correct topic or trash it accordingly.

    As far as SU-57 is concerned, it is real that India is diversifying its defense purchases and USA is stepping in and as an American, it is a good opportunity for us to get it into that market with competitive products and hopefully not through sanctions route. This is good for India too, SU-57 is not proven yet and this verbal stupidity will continue in its full intensity in the media, and geo political circles for a while. The result will be out eventually based on the true adaptation of the product.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:07 pm

    India is a free country and can do as it pleases, but for all their complaints about Russian military equipment, that is actually normal... even the best piece of kit occasionally fails or has problems that need to be sorted out... a situation that can be made much worse by operations in harsh environments and also not buying enough spare parts and ensuring proper support, thinking you can order parts when you need them and then finding they have to make them which takes much longer that you expected, or red tape in negotiating prices and delivery dates... despite their good relations, negotiations always take longer with India... and if there is an election in there sometimes you have to start again with a new group of negotiators... but that is democracy for you.

    Russia is also a free country, but would be stupid to ignore the fact that India is an important customer and an important growing power too.

    The simple fact is that Russia should not be in a huge hurry to export the Su-57... the Su-35 is selling rather well right now and is much cheaper to buy and to operate.

    As regards to the comments by southpark, first of all for some of your first posts on this forum I would suggest you ease up on criticising existing members.

    It is especially amusing as you state you are American and your criticism is that the member is pro Pakistan... do you not see the irony there... America basically supported Pakistan throughout the cold war against India.

    But now, again, the US has switched sides... I guess the music stopped or something... and now they realise there are 1.3 billion Indians who need blue jeans and bourbon... (and they probably wont buy them from China...)

    Your problem, america is looking for more women for its harem, and it don't share its bitches... India can buy all sorts of things (though it might have to ask for permission to actually use it...) but it has to stop buying stuff from Russia.

    Doesn't sound like a very good deal for India... especially when over 60% of the things in Indian service are Soviet or Russian... but what would I know.

    It is made rather worse when you consider the US wants to use India against China... so India can use F-35s to try to free Tibet, they would object to them being used against Pakistan.

    In other words you can fight the country we don't like, but you can't fight the country we used to help fight you.

    American interests in this situation is to sell stuff, and to create a country in the region friendly to the US and hostile to Russia and China.

    India needs to decide if it wants to be Americas bitch or make its own decisions... and I am sure there are plenty of Indians who don't trust other Indians and think some other power should be in charge... whether it is the British or the Americans...
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:32 pm

    Well, Su-57 must be stealthy enough that no one knew it flew in Syria till Russia showed footage.

    On another note, Southpark is correct in what he is saying. Pakistan is a failed state. Continues to fail too.

    Indian media is heavily funded by Western States. And many politicians as well as media groups and professionals have family and ties to both US and UK. So it is of no real concern what Indian media says or does. They have also proven that Western equipment sucks and or just their own sheer incompetence.

    What matters to me is what Russia gets.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As regards to the comments by southpark, first of all for your some of your first posts on this forum I would suggest you ease up on criticising existing members.

    I did not know that there is a minimum requirement on number of posts to state your opinion and it was not like a personal attack nor was I disrespectful. I am not looking to be on good side of anyone or anything.

    GarryB wrote:
    It is especially amusing as you state you are American and your criticism is that the member is pro Pakistan... do you not see the irony there... America basically supported Pakistan throughout the cold war against India.

    Again I observed his posts and it came across to me his opinions were biased between India and Pakistan from the very first post after the incident. Not sure if I stated anywhere US was innocent? I just thought he picked evidence as it suited to his argument.

    GarryB wrote:
    India needs to decide if it wants to be Americas bitch or make its own decisions... and I am sure there are plenty of Indians who don't trust other Indians and think some other power should be in charge... whether it is the British or the Americans...

    India never picked sides decisively and that is part of the problem too....you can't always stand on the line indecisively and she is not strong enough to be on her own either. So I do not expect India to be anyone's bitch, but they have their own wisdom like Chinese without the power of current China though. Look at Pakistan for picking sides, fanatical shithole and nothing else. Are you implying buying American equipment makes them automatically US bitch? Chinese trade with them in trillions and I guess they are a bitch too....don't take it personal. Just responding to your reply. Negotiations with India are difficult for different factors, systematic corruption, extremely divisive politics and empty egotistical bureaucrats and policy makers and just possibly unqualified technical people involved in those negotiations. I do not think India will abandon the Russian equipment but they will for sure diversify whether you accept it or not. There is evidence for it...they want benefits from US then they need to yield on some too...but it does not necessarily mean they are US or Russian bitch.

    Also you may be talking to wrong Indian's, I do not have respect for people that immigrate and bad mouth the whole nation with those stupid arguments like it would have been better under British, right....be on guard for that kinda people...they will escape their duty at the first risky situation to their life or well being. I have seen that among Chinese too...bad mouthing their country.

    Probably off topic...

    As for Su-57, unless they are already at the cusp of 6th gen technologies, it does not make sense to export it. US did the same with F-22 and we are getting ready for the increased competition. I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:50 pm

    southpark wrote:
    As for Su-57, unless they are already at the cusp of 6th gen technologies, it does not make sense to export it. US did the same with F-22 and we are getting ready for the increased competition. I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.

    Unless there are strategic benefits that outweigh risks. There wont be many buyers, most important is India. The only one with strategic weight and money. For India it is good chance to buy fighter+technologies. For Russia keeping India in partnership in military cooperation for next 20 years or os. When India grows more then Us by means of GDP.

    If they sell, say, it this year to India. We have 1-2 years for details negotiations. 2-3 for production and 2-5 for tech transfer. So 2030 it might be localized in biggest part. This is time for 6gen in Russia.


    BTW US sells F-35
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:56 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1

    India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

    from your link:
    Pay attention to the comments in the Indian media about
    oh cmon this were quotes of 2 journos. Likely with grants from US NGO nothing official from Indian MoD isnt it? Of course F-35 is nto in teething problem is competently toothless so far.

    Russia is responsible for what technology could offer India for funding the program. And today, India could enter into the program of the American fifth generation fighter (F-35) and not to be dependent on the Russian process improvement (su-57) – waiting for children's teething.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:10 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    If they sell, say,  it this year to India. We have 1-2 years for details negotiations. 2-3 for production and 2-5 for tech transfer. So 2030 it might be localized in biggest part.  This is time for 6gen in Russia.

    BTW US sells F-35

    LOL...you are right about that guaranteed paralysis but the other reason could be that Indian's haven't been very successful like China in indigenizing the complicated technologies like materials, engines, and aerodynamics e.t.c. So Russia may prefer to sell them earlier than the only other contender which is China that can afford this fighter. Based on the shitstorm about the cost in acquiring Rafale's in India, I doubt they will opt for F-35 and the tech transfer restrictions from US on 5th gen technologies. I prefer the US not sell 5th gen technologies to anyone. I think the Russian's are figuring out the market pretty decently based on their recent successes.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:21 pm

    southpark wrote:As far as SU-57 is concerned, it is real that India is diversifying its defense purchases and USA is stepping in and as an American, it is a good opportunity for us to get it into that market with competitive products and hopefully not through sanctions route. This is good for India too, SU-57 is not proven yet and this verbal stupidity will continue in its full intensity in the media, and geo political circles for a while. The result will be out eventually based on the true adaptation of the product.
    That is all fine and dandy but your government is not trying to compete fairly, it is just behaving like gangsters do. Not that anyone else would be better after such a long period of dominance BTW, but it is what it is. They are apparently going to remove Turkey from F-35 because they buy the S-400, how much do you think they would like the huge ties Indian military has with Russia? Even before becoming a major military partner they have already been trying to school them about what weapons and what oil do they need to buy, how is India going to trust them? Putting India's national security in US' hands would be a suicide pure and simple.

    Back to Su-57: India didn't get really involved in the FGFA because they had no money for yet another fighter program, as simple as that. The conditions that Russia was offering them were exceptionally good, hell they spent much more money in buying 36 Rafales without ToT than what Russia was asking for granting IP rights for (IMHO) the best 5G fighter in the world... no comments on that decision not to proceed, but in any case much better for Russia than having their latest fighter produced and sold abroad by India. And they will probably end up buying a Su-57MKI in the end, so from a Russian perspective FGFA can pretty much go to hell.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:45 pm

    Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development? So may be the government actually did not get bought into that trap to do joint research and may chose to buy the finished product when it is ready. Actually I see that as Russia's loss. India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....

    As far as the US is concerned, I think recently our policy makers are more stick than carrot and think sanctions as the first and last chip. Too much entropy got into the system, I am hoping there will be some sort of correction and hopefully we will get some calm and collected people in the near future. If we withdraw someone will take that slot, it is just natural and occurred time and again. I prefer we withdraw where it is not serving our interests for instance Syria, Afghanistan e.t.c Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger. I think the bigger mistake our policy makers made is that they dismantled some of the important rules that were in our favor anyway when it comes to unwritten big power agreements....I can't rationalize and just hoping that we get some smart people take some key positions in our cabinet. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram generation contributes to the indifference also...

    What product gets sold is not always based on its capabilities...iphone vs android, WRX vs S4 e.t.c
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:53 pm

    LMFS wrote:Back to Su-57: India didn't get really involved in the FGFA because they had no money for yet another fighter program, as simple as that.{}
    And they will probably end up buying a Su-57MKI in the end, so from a Russian perspective FGFA can pretty much go to hell.

    There is no permanent like/hate in business or politics . Cool calculation. If you'd looked at India from timeline perspective: India 's economy now is 3 in the world in PPP already (~$9T) and is growing like 7-8% p/a). It might be powerful allay and economical partner they need basically everything starting from food, crude, gas, metals till technologies.

    What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:00 am

    southpark wrote:

    LOL...you are right about that guaranteed paralysis but the other reason could be that (1) Indian's haven't been very successful like China in indigenizing the complicated technologies like materials, engines, and aerodynamics e.t.c. So Russia may prefer to sell them earlier than the only other contender which is China that can afford this fighter. Based on the shitstorm about the cost in acquiring Rafale's in India, I doubt they will opt for F-35 and the tech transfer restrictions from US on 5th gen technologies. (2) I prefer the US not sell 5th gen technologies to anyone. I think the Russian's are figuring out the market pretty decently based on their recent successes.



    (1) not yet at least Smile Smile Smile That's why IMHO Modi tries to force Made in India.

    (2) As for F-35 ekhm to me it is mildly speaking not best fighter US can build. Us is also working on VI gen tech so i dotn see real danger to sell Vgen. It is not like you sell and next year they master them. Besides Vgen tech is not magic just the matter or resources invested + time. So Indian will have it sooner or later. the sooner Russians would sell Su-57 the better for them in terms of strategic partnership.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:45 am

    southpark wrote:Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development? So may be the government actually did not get bought into that trap to do joint research and may chose to buy the finished product when it is ready. Actually I see that as Russia's loss. India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....
    5G is something everybody wants but maybe not everybody understands. In any case India wants it too, and these things take time, so better start soon. Contribute in development? Requirements and money, little more being honest.

    Joint research was for their fighter (not for PAK-FA) for which they would have got total ToT, local production plus right to sell abroad... for 5 billion if I am not wrong. Of course Russia was interested in the money and to ensure Indian partnership for the future, but this was a super deal for India, maybe they were not ready to take advantage of it. So Russia was interested but I really don't think such crucial projects are started depending on a foreign and changing political will, that makes no sense.

    I am curious why do you think is a Russian loss? No big ToT, no competitor plane from India and off-the-shelf buy instead of some capital which has proven not necessary? Don't see the issue honestly.

    As far as the US is concerned, I think recently our policy makers are more stick than carrot and think sanctions as the first and last chip. Too much entropy got into the system, I am hoping there will be some sort of correction and hopefully we will get some calm and collected people in the near future.

    In the current situation it would be much better for US to agree rationally with raising powers how to behave and make humanity rise from its teenage into adulthood, ie., respect for international law instead of foul play to take geopolitical spots, and do it before US sees their power base crumble and nasty things happen. With nuclear weapons we cannot play at war anymore. But ok that is too much off-topic from me! Razz

    Gunship wrote:What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.
    Why do you say so?
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:02 am

    LMFS wrote:
    I am curious why do you think is a Russian loss? No big ToT, no competitor plane from India and off-the-shelf buy instead of some capital which has proven not necessary? Don't see the issue honestly.

    Well, India and China are the only major countries that buy their fighters in any quantity and China is leaping forward with their own and it will be only be a matter of time if the current trajectory continues for them and they stop going for major purchases from Russia just like their Navy. India not throwing money on FGFA is a loss in the amount of $5b that you mentioned, could have funded couple of yasens for them for instance. Well, partnerships like this at that stage has no precedent except for SU30MKI but that was a platform that was already kinda matured and FGFA is just in its infancy. The odds are it would turn into a black hole with no tangible deliverable. Not worth it especially if the Indians are not ready to absorb the technologies and have no base to build on it. I think Indians made the correct decision but they do that in their style whether you like it or not and I do not understand the drama every time they make a deal to step back. As Garry said two opposing groups?

    LMFS wrote:
    In the current situation it would be much better for US to agree rationally with raising powers how to behave and make humanity rise from its teenage into adulthood, ie., respect for international law instead of foul play to take geopolitical spots, and do it before US sees their power base crumble and nasty things happen. With nuclear weapons we cannot play at war anymore. But ok that is too much off-topic from me!  Razz

    The one who thinks the world is run fairly by any man is naive in my opinion (you can look around in places you interact)....whoever goes to the top removes the ladder...if you know what I mean. I just hope we go for longer term strategy and place our chips accordingly. We need someone like Eisenhower.

    If its offtopic move to bullocks thread...
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:50 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Gunship wrote:What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.
    Why do you say so?

    telling India to fuck themselves just because 2 journos (likely sponsored) expressed their opinions ? Russia agreed to export Su-57 for a reason. Anybody else can buy other then India? i dont see anybody else.

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