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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:02 pm

    I'm not pro-NATO, read my posts on other threads. However, to be objective, I get info. from different sources. There's no such thing as benevolent empire, & Russia isn't exception.
    Some peoples were exterminated, by intention or not, while others survived. Those who did were incorporated & many of them lost much of their original culture:
    https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/russia-1900-to-1939/russification/

    https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/151025

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP12.HTM

    The absence of US or Canada style reservations isn't necessarily a good thing. Some ethnic groups may have autonomic status but they r not that well protected from the dominant culture, ecenomy & political/judicial system. I met & spoke to 1 Udege man who told me in 1986 that they wear nylon jackets in winter in their homeland on the way to work.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udege_people

    https://lib.ohchr.org/HRBodies/UPR/Documents/Session4/RU/RAIPON_IWGIA_RUS_UPR_S4_2009anx_Indigenous_Peoples_Russia_RAIPON_INFOE_2008.pdf


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Hole on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:10 pm

    The minorities in Russia still live where there ancestors lived hundreds/thousands of years ago and are allowed to live the way they want. They are also supported by the state.

    There were battles in Siberia and central asia as both sides hadn´t figured out how to live together.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:54 pm

    ..are allowed to live the way they want.
    Read the links I posted.
    The best lands were taken over by the Russian & Ukrainian settlers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic#Russian_conquest

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buryatia#History

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur_Oblast#17th_century-1850s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadan_Oblast#History

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukotka_Autonomous_Okrug#Russian_exploration_and_conquest

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchatka_Oblast

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryak_Okrug

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabarovsk_Krai

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primorsky_Krai#History

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_in_Russia
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:04 pm

    Civilization is based on the organized use of violence to control and integrate each timer bigger territories and populations, there is no way around this we like it or not. That being said, there are many ways of doing this. Anglo-Saxon cultures that never mixed with the "inferior races" and simply annihilated natives without other interest than replacing them have essentially nothing to say about other civilizations that mixed and at least didn't go on an all-out on extermination quest of the original populations, but they are interestingly the ones making more noise about this issue...with no problems with the natives to address at home themselves since they conveniently eliminated them already. Do what I say but not what I do
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    Post  kvs on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 am

    Wikipedia is not an objective source. It is edited 24/7 by interested parties and you can see revisionism in real time. No narrative
    that goes against the NATO agenda will ever be found on Wikipedia.

    So, TS, either cite the original sources or GTFO.

    I also want to know from which paradise does this clown originate that he pretends his country has no history of minority abuse
    in the past.

    I will repeat: Russia never ethnically cleansed aboriginals from their lands and onto reservation camps. Don't invoke Chechens or
    Crimean Tatars as "proof" of the opposite. During WWII they allied themselves with the Nazis who were in the process of carrying
    out genocide against Russians. So Stalin, the ethnic Georgian, decide to deport them away from the front lines. As anyone
    with a clue knows both the Crimean Tatars and Chechens have come back home. Their experience was tragic, but not as tragic
    as that of New World aboriginals.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:14 am

    Actually deportations spared both Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars a lot of casualties. Without deportations a lot of them would have ended conscriptedin the Red Arny or collaborating with the Germans. The death toll would have been much higher.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:33 am

    So, TS, either cite the original sources or GTFO.
    I also want to know from which paradise does this clown originate that he pretends his country has no history of minority abuse
    in the past.
    If u don't like WP in English, find the corresponding pages in Russian & then google translate them. At the bottom, sources r listed- check them for any discrepancies with the text. If some troll incorrectly edited it, others will correct it. Besides, NATO isn't an omnipresent entity or reference point in the history of Russia/USSR; it appeared after 1945.
    Where did I state that my country "has no history of minority abuse
    in the past"?
    Nenets were also abused: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets_people#History_and_way_of_life
    Without deportations a lot of them would have ended conscripted in the Red Army..
    Those eligible for conscription were all conscripted, incl. ethnic Germans & Crimean Tartars, many of whom were decorated, some became Heroes of the SU.
    ..an additional 316,600 Soviet Germans served as labour conscripts during World War II. Soviet Germans were not accepted in the regular armed forces but were employed instead as conscript labour. The labour army members were arranged into worker battalions that followed camp-like regulations and received Gulag rations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)#Soviet_Union_and_annexed_territories

    The Assyrians, Iranians, Koreans, Balkars & Greeks were also exiled:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union#Iranians_and_Assyrians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Koreans_in_the_Soviet_Union
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kabardino-Balkaria#Russian_and_Soviet_rule

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union#Soviet_Union
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Operation_of_the_NKVD

    The list is long:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:50 am

    Time for GarryB or George1 to clean this thread up! Take all these unnecessary posts and stick em' in the harry bollocks thread!
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:12 pm

    Sorry Tsavo... but please don't post anything from the UK regarding minority rights:

    https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/russia-1900-to-1939/russification/

    This is just bullshit.

    The British invented concentration camps... and when it comes to mistreating minorities you would be pretty hard pressed to find worse offenders than the major colonial powers of the west.

    Just watch the first episode of the Beverly Hillbillies... it was humour, but it was also biting satire that most Americans didn't understand.

    (For those not familiar it is a TV show about backwater hillbillies finding oil and becoming rich and moving to beverly hills... lots of humour about simple folk and rich folk and their differences and their judgements. When the first arrive a local rich woman wants to talk to the head of the family to find out which boat their family came to america on... it is explained to him that the earlier the boat the higher his families standing in society (rich society that is) will be. He makes the obvious comment that that means the Indians must be at the top... to which the shocked woman says... no no... not at all... you see rules are different for rich white people and darkies... )

    Of course many parts of the programme are intended to make these simple folk appear foolish, but just as often it shows how fooling rich people are too.

    Time for GarryB or George1 to clean this thread up! Take all these unnecessary posts and stick em' in the harry bollocks thread!

    Will do.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:01 pm

    Ah, the UK.

    The UK implemented a policy similar to the residential schools in Canada aimed at wiping out the Welsh identity. We had the same
    beating of children for speaking in Welsh, etc. Russia never had such grotesque policies. Anyone from the UK trying to get on some moral
    high horse vis a vis Russia is full of shit. The Russian empire never baited ethnic groups each other as the UK did in Canada in the case
    of the Mohawks and the Hurons. As a result the Hurons were exterminated. That genocide the is the fault of the UK. In Sri Lanka
    the UK used the Tamils as a proxy against Hindus with the ensuing century of ethnic strife.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:39 pm

    The British invented concentration camps... and when it comes to mistreating minorities you would be pretty hard pressed to find worse offenders than the major colonial powers of the west.
    That doesn't mean that everything they say about this particular issue isn't true or partially true.

    As a result the Hurons were exterminated.
    Not all of them!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyandot_people#History

    J.F. Cooper wrote his "The Last of the Mohicans" novel, but their descendants still live in the USA:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahican#Representation_in_media
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohegan

    Other tribes weren't as lucky:
    http://top-10-list.org/2011/11/04/top-10-native-tribes-who-faced-extinction/

    The Brits had a policy of apartheid that originated with Germanic Anglo-Saxons, but the Mongols, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Romans/Italians & Russians needed as many of the natives alive as possible so they could be exploited, incorporated & assimilated to make their empires stronger.
    By the time of the Ivan IV (Terrible), & even more so the Peter I, the Russians already had strong admixture of Tartar (who themselves had taken Ks of Slavic captives) blood in their veins.
    As they expanded East, rapes & intermarriages were common, producing new half breeds.
    Western/Central Europeans incl. French POVs, & Baltic & other Germans were also assimilated- Mother Russia had room for them all. Catherine II was German herself.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:52 am

    That doesn't mean that everything they say about this particular issue isn't true or partially true.

    The purpose of the concentration camps was to "convert" the Boer women and children... they were brutal, and had the sole purpose of turning the enemy into friendlies or they die...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:14 am

    LMFS wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1

    India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"
    Better idea: sell it to Pakistan and let them show India how stealth it is What a Face
    .....


    Are you trying to win Vlad Tepes Overkill Award?

    Even F-16 is too much stealth for India, Su-57 would be torture porn Cool
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:46 am

    The British invented concentration camps...
    In the US, Indian reservations were in that category & appeared earlier.
    https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/indian-reservations

    Hitler & Himmler learned a lesson from that.
    As an exception to the rule, Canada under the British was a lot less violent than the US in its Indian(Native American, or Aboriginal) policy. The RCMP handled all disputes & tried to arrest only the "guilty parties", instead attacking entire camps like the US Cavalry did. There, better named "reserves" were established.
    After the 1867 purchase, Alaska Natives had it easy, as there was no big influx of White immigrants willing to settle there as in the lower 48.
    History shows that all big countries (by population & territory), even not formal empires, r won & held together by force.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:53 am

    In the US, Indian reservations were in that category & appeared earlier.

    Concentration camp =/= Reservation or Reserved native lands... the key is who is in control and who runs the places and the purpose of the places... and conditions thereof.

    Or are you suggesting being at Summer camp and in an insane asylum are the same thing... while their might be similarities I can assure you there are also fundamental differences too...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:39 am

    I know far a fact that although they declare Indian Nations independent, Federal & state laws still apply there. The state of New York tried to tax tobacco sales to non-Indians but the state police was prevented from enforcing it.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newyork-tobacco-idUSTRE74865R20110509

    The Natives always fight for their rights in USA.
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-05-13-mn-1674-story.html
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/226387/AGENTS-HELD-THEN-RELEASED-AFTER-CASINO-RAID.html
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/227932/ARIZONA-INDIANS-FEDERAL-OFFICIALS-STILL-IN-STANDOFF.html

    The pipeline saga isn't over yet:
    https://apnews.com/081cb7ff366549fb996ffec970fe0684
    https://www.narf.org/cases/keystone/


    R there Maori lands not subject to NZ laws & Wellington?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:58 am

    Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun


    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.
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    Post  medo on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:03 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1

    India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

    At first, India must prove, that their pilots could hit the hill with guided bombs…. lol1

    Why bother with India? Let them develop their own fifth gen fighter, when they are so smart. Just look at Tejas. After 30+ years of development, everything inside is foreign made and technology from nineties.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:15 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys.... lol1


    I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that  they left the FGFA program.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:10 am

    India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:18 am

    Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun

    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.
    For India's sake I hope planers are not as stupid as these media guys and I assume this scenario you propose is what will happen probably. Su-57 is the only 5G plane available to India and also probably the best and one of the cheapest too, with ToT and a history of trust and positive cooperation with the developer, it is simply a no brainer to go for it. But there is a sector of media and apparently defence guys too that makes too much noise and are clearly putting a spoke in India's wheels by creating all kinds of fake speculations against Russian armament. I have no doubt who is their owner, they give themselves away using the same stupid arguments of Western media. Indian society would do well calling them out for what they are.

    bolshevik345 wrote:I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that they left the FGFA program.
    True! lol1
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:46 pm

    Hole wrote:India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?

    Recent news from France:

    French Rafale Jets Grounded After Passenger Was Accidentally Ejected From A Two-Seater Last Week Return To Flight
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:50 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    LMFS wrote:

    Turkey already has advanced plans for the TF-X, but actually using the Su-57 airframe instead would be much better. They could unify their fleet in one single true multirole plane at a fraction of the development cost and still have the stuffing of their own liking, pretty much a "do it yourself 5G fighter kit" from Sukhoi Razz

    Turkey appear to have got into bed with BAE to develop from scratch a stealth fighter but that is a decade away.

    Just think about the impact of a Su-35ET assembled in Turkey/UK with Turkish/British electronics, radar, weapons and engines. Long term replacement for the Tornado, so in comes the Germans and Italians.

    We can dream Very Happy

    Every plane where UK was involved sucked. Su-35 with british help will suck just like typhoon suck or f-35 or harrier or anything else they made.

    They will sign contracts, turkey will pay, and the project will be dead as US will impose sanctions and destroy their economy, UK will keep the money.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:15 pm

    Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun


    India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.

    Yeah (responding to "medo"), he seems to be a sympathizer for Pakistan who supported militancy towards USSR and what is with some of you that come from countries that are on their knee's throughout their history serving other powers and talking big on these forums (seriously NZ, Australia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia e.t.c....get real)? India may be a shit hole but you pale Vs its existence in history. You realize that Pakistan pretty much lost every war miserably that they fought post 1948 with India. There are only 4 sovereign or semi-sovereign countries in the world today imho....USA, Russia, China and India....rest are doing their own thing standing on their knees.

    Ofcourse the Indian press excels in feeding stupidity and empty patriotism to their population. However Pakistan is a failed country and it has no future, no comparison with India on any metric. Just because the Indian fighter was shotdown does not mean anything....Russian planes were shotdown by 1000 times lesser powers recently, did Russia do anything symmetric in reaction? If sane politicians act like some of you think they should then there is no need for the existence of real strategists and we can all go back to fighting tribal wars. Sorry off topic...I just could not resist responding to this member as he has been very consistent in his pro Pakistan opinions in an immature way. You realize Russia does not give a shit about Pakistan? Russian's are smart when they are not corrupt bunch like Yeltsin regime and would deal with their partners practically and they will play along with Indians just like they did for 60 years. You have 100's of posts on this forum and most of your non-technical analysis is trash and knee jerky feel to it.

    As far as Su-57 is concerned and India's participation goes, at best Indians may offer some buggy integration but beyond that they have no chops to do real and respectable contribution as of now and probably not in near future either. Russia is in it for money and not for solutions from India....not sure why some of you are getting all emotional.....Indian media is not Indian government (not that it is any better). It is not a result of talentless Indian's as you can see they contribute a lot in the countries they immigrate into....not talking about back office work but academia, patents, research, management e.t.c. The reason why the same advancement does not happen in India is because the personal integrity is not something most even consciously pay attention there anymore when doing their work (ethics are lost under centuries of foreign occupation) and neither does the system demands it from them. From top to bottom, it has evolved into a "nothing sacred to protect" country in a real sense (economic, quality and integrity sense). Only consolable thing is that it did not devolve into a mindless terrorist friendly country like Pakistan and so many other Western (yes playing their dirty politics and butchering people) or Middle Eastern countries....I am new to forum, please move it to correct topic or trash it accordingly.

    As far as SU-57 is concerned, it is real that India is diversifying its defense purchases and USA is stepping in and as an American, it is a good opportunity for us to get it into that market with competitive products and hopefully not through sanctions route. This is good for India too, SU-57 is not proven yet and this verbal stupidity will continue in its full intensity in the media, and geo political circles for a while. The result will be out eventually based on the true adaptation of the product.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:07 pm

    India is a free country and can do as it pleases, but for all their complaints about Russian military equipment, that is actually normal... even the best piece of kit occasionally fails or has problems that need to be sorted out... a situation that can be made much worse by operations in harsh environments and also not buying enough spare parts and ensuring proper support, thinking you can order parts when you need them and then finding they have to make them which takes much longer that you expected, or red tape in negotiating prices and delivery dates... despite their good relations, negotiations always take longer with India... and if there is an election in there sometimes you have to start again with a new group of negotiators... but that is democracy for you.

    Russia is also a free country, but would be stupid to ignore the fact that India is an important customer and an important growing power too.

    The simple fact is that Russia should not be in a huge hurry to export the Su-57... the Su-35 is selling rather well right now and is much cheaper to buy and to operate.

    As regards to the comments by southpark, first of all for some of your first posts on this forum I would suggest you ease up on criticising existing members.

    It is especially amusing as you state you are American and your criticism is that the member is pro Pakistan... do you not see the irony there... America basically supported Pakistan throughout the cold war against India.

    But now, again, the US has switched sides... I guess the music stopped or something... and now they realise there are 1.3 billion Indians who need blue jeans and bourbon... (and they probably wont buy them from China...)

    Your problem, america is looking for more women for its harem, and it don't share its bitches... India can buy all sorts of things (though it might have to ask for permission to actually use it...) but it has to stop buying stuff from Russia.

    Doesn't sound like a very good deal for India... especially when over 60% of the things in Indian service are Soviet or Russian... but what would I know.

    It is made rather worse when you consider the US wants to use India against China... so India can use F-35s to try to free Tibet, they would object to them being used against Pakistan.

    In other words you can fight the country we don't like, but you can't fight the country we used to help fight you.

    American interests in this situation is to sell stuff, and to create a country in the region friendly to the US and hostile to Russia and China.

    India needs to decide if it wants to be Americas bitch or make its own decisions... and I am sure there are plenty of Indians who don't trust other Indians and think some other power should be in charge... whether it is the British or the Americans...

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