Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Talking bollocks thread #2

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21084
    Points : 21632
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:12 am

    The don't need large numbers of SSBNs... in fact having too many would actually be a bit of a problem in terms of their commitments to treaties regarding strategic weapons...

    With 16 launch tubes per boat and 4 warheads per missile and 8 boats that gives them 64 missile warheads per boat... so 8 boats gives them 512 warheads... which is about what they need.

    They already have Delta IV class boats and Delta III class boats capable of doing a decent job too that are not totally obsolete... imagine a Delta IV with the SLBMs removed and a bank of 150 subsonic nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles on board... you could send it to the south Pacific or south atlantic to patrol for months at a time... miles away from anything or anyone... by the time those warheads land on any country on the planet all the air defence forces will be gone so they can just cruise in and boom... even days after the first strike landed...

    During peace time you could swap out those nuke powered and nuke armed cruise missiles for 5,000km range conventional cruise missiles... so you just need one sub to take out 150 targets instead of a rather large number of corvettes...

    They could probably put a wide range of different missile types on board...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8091
    Points : 8177
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:00 am

    GarryB wrote:The don't need large numbers of SSBNs... in fact having too many would actually be a bit of a problem in terms of their commitments to treaties regarding strategic weapons......

    I just did some reading and yeah, 8 Boreis is enough for now, combined with Deltas that would be double digit number SSBNs

    For some reason I assumed that US Navy has ~30 of SSBNs in service (I must be in full Cold War mode lately) but correct number is 14 Ohios (+ 4 more in SSGN setup so those don't count)

    So numbers are OK, Deltas should be retiring by the time next batch of Boreis is launched


    GarryB wrote:..... imagine a Delta IV with the SLBMs removed and a bank of 150 subsonic nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles on board.......


    When you have missile with unlimited range it doesn't matter where you launch it from so this would be redundant (especially with Status-6 in play)


    GarryB wrote:....During peace time you could swap out those nuke powered and nuke armed cruise missiles for 5,000km range conventional cruise missiles... so you just need one sub to take out 150 targets instead of a rather large number of corvettes...

    They could probably put a wide range of different missile types on board...

    Now this is definitely something they should do (USA did it with those 4 Ohios), been saying it for a while

    And we do know that they plan on retiring couple of Deltas due to high noise output which makes them unsuited for their current role but other than that those ships are 100% solid

    Replacing SLBMs with Kalibrs would turn them into excellent arsenal ships, having them tag along with couple of corvettes would turn those corvettes from light patrol into a force capable of flattening a decent sized country at discount price, perfect for Middle East

    No need for large naval task force when corvette can just send target data and Delta can handle the rest, sub's noise in not relevant in that scenario[/quote]
    avatar
    Peŕrier

    Posts : 281
    Points : 279
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:26 pm

    Are you sending ships with less than 15 days endurance along with SSBN (even if converted to SSGN role) with some months endurance?

    What's the rationale?

    Truth is, if you need to operate far from your shores, you need very long range ships.

    Even frigates would be a long shot employed in conjunction with anything nuclear powered, but corvettes would be a plain joke.

    And anyway Russia does need very long range surface ships, if not else, just to do the work of the madman able to cause troubles all around the world.

    Corvettes are useful just until they can make larger and longer ships free to deploy almost anywhere in the world, just to remember everybody that whatever happens anywhere in the world, Russia will be always there, if not to make things better, at least to make them worst.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:00 am

    Peŕrier wrote:

    Corvettes are useful just until they can make larger and longer ships free to deploy almost anywhere in the world, just to remember everybody that whatever happens anywhere in the world, Russia will be always there, if not to make things better, at least to make them worst.

    They also need very big ships specially in the north with the new sea route that will show up. A big lider can control ships there for months and secure the airspace against US bombers and cruise missiles but also control under sea US SSGN.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8091
    Points : 8177
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:10 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are you sending ships with less than 15 days endurance along with SSBN (even if converted to SSGN role) with some months endurance?

    What's the rationale?......

    Rationale is that they will soon have Delta sub available for stuff like that and nobody was talking about priority deployments​, I was talking about Middle East

    100+ LACM slots on already available vessel is good thing to have
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2120
    Points : 2114
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Regular on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:13 am

    Kimppis wrote:Miketheterrible:

    Russian car ownership per capita is considerably lower than in Finland, and even its population density is lower...

    There was of course the communism thing as well: widespread car ownership is a relatively new thing in Russia.

    You obviously seem to have some... may I say weird ideas about Russian living standards. It's not propaganda or Russophobia to say that Russian living standards are still quite a bit lower than in the West. It's an obvious fact. Sure, most people have no idea about Russian living standards and Russia-haters love to exaggerate those differences. And certainly the gap is much smaller than it was 10 or 20 years, but it still very clearly exists.

    So there are some things:

    1. The "driving culture" is less developed, as I mentioned above. It takes time
    2. Alcohol consumption is still higher in Russia
    3. Infrastructure is worse on average
    4. Finland is like one of the most egalitarian, orderly and developed countries in the world. Comparing it to Russia less than 20 years after... well, Yeltsin, is not exactly fair (of course, it depends on the indicator)

    As I pointed out in my previous comment: even South Korea rate is over 20, Chile is at 50, China at over 100... So sure Russia looks bad compared to Finland, but much less so when compared to the global average.
    We can move this to Russia section or offtopic, ok?

    Russian car ownership is not new thing, it's not Africa.
    Russian living standards are very low compared even to very low living standards of eastern Europe. As soon you leave Moscow you stumble across poverty left and right. For some people living standards didn't change in 20 years. If they were living in shitty Kuzminka town with unpaved roads they are still living in same place MINUS soviet legacies.

    1. Driving culture is part of mentality. Also, russian laws are weak af to deter people from driving like cunts.
    2. Well fins have nothing to write home about as they are drunkards too
    3. Infrastructure is not being developed with any grandiose plan, but rather ad hoc and sporadically.
    4. Also, fins didn't have to live under commie rule.

    Russia doesn't look bad to those countries, but again, Russian can be so much more with right people in power.
    Putin brings stability, but there's that. Communism was stable, but it was stagnating
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4084
    Points : 4188
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:51 am

    Whatever the kremlin ,Russia military is  doing with their aviation safety is not working..
    Some heads needs to Roll. Russia have lost more soldiers in planes -helicopters accidents due to crashing in Russia ,
    than in combats in the Syrian warzone.  If you look for example at the safety record of Big Airliners, Americans
    and Europeans.. they measure crashes in the millions flights . For example latest models of Boeing have 3-5 crashed
    for every million flights.. This are far more complex planes ,far bigger with a lot more difficult to maintain. yet Russian planes crash almost every month due to "Accidents". in Russia. So today is March 7 2018.. wait for April 8 ,and you will see another pilot killed ,transport plane crashing.  This is not supposed to happen ,if you had good quality controls
    and proper repair/maintainance facilities.  Russia is very careless for the safety of their equipment.. they leave their
    planes not only in Syria but in Russia territory too.. in the Open Air.. taking dust ,rush ,water ,birds poo, and Rats or other rodents in such conditions could damage planes hardware ,cables ,electrical circuits.  Birds are allowed to  freely
    Fly in Russian military bases.. Simply a major reform will be need in Russia military ,this time not about buying weapons..but instead about significantly raising their poor quality controls. of their military airports and maintainance of their facilities.  Only Russia most advanced stealth planes get a hangar.. the others are left to Rust in the open ,or exposed to bad weather or rodents.
    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 733
    Points : 726
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:58 am

    Military helicopter with nine special forces officers onboard crashes in Russia. At least five dead: https://sputniknews.com/russia/201803071062309641-helicopter-crash-chechnya/

    This is getting ridiculous.
    gaurav
    gaurav

    Posts : 377
    Points : 371
    Join date : 2013-02-19
    Age : 39
    Location : Blr

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  gaurav on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:00 pm

    Another helicopter MI-8 crashed today killing 7-8 more..in Chechnya.
    avatar
    Nikander

    Posts : 52
    Points : 52
    Join date : 2015-01-01

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Nikander on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:38 pm

    Now helicopter crashes, Peskov is getting ready, Putin writing some more condolences. It's even worse if these are not terror attacks because it means that the Russian leadership is treating russian people like cockroaches. Like they ere worthless. So who cares if a 100 people died, we have another hundred to die just around the corner. Children, man, woman, elderly, military, generals, fuck them all, most important thing is that I have my little super weapons. That's all you have you little midget. Russian people, army, security services need to move Putin and his gang from power before west does it and put their own people. It's clear that situation is getting out of control even if everyone is trying to pretend that it's not.
    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 733
    Points : 726
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:01 pm

    This is a good example why Russia needs a civil society. People and organizations independent from the government (and not funded from the West) who would DEMAND that the government takes REAL ACTION to improve the aviation security in the country.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4084
    Points : 4188
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:13 pm

    Yep another Accident by the incompetent Russia military.
    This accidents are all consequences as i said before of the Abysmal quality
    controls of Russia ,leaving their aircrafts on the open to freeze ,to corrosion to
    Birds poo ,to Rodents.. and having a very low quality controls in the nation...

    This accidents are not normal.. but only consequences of negligence.

    If Russian aircraft had the proper service ,then vast majority of the accidents
    Russia experience will not happen. Heads needs to Roll in Russia ,this accidents are not Normal.
    I have been complaining about Russia poor quality controls since last year.. but the usual Putin fanboys
    accused me of being a "Troll".  oh..thats normal.. no is not..

    This accidents will increasingly lower the morale of Russia troops ,knowing they could die ,
    if they transported in a military plane because of poor service..  Russia should better ask Private
    companies to take care of the maintenance of Russia military planes. Because what the Russia military
    is doing is to embarrass Russia as a nation and its military.

    Go check in the Russian aviation accidents how the "Experts" including moderators.. tried to convince
    me that so many accidents was "normal". Is so Ridiculous ,that Russia have lost more soldiers in crashes in Russia
    main land ,than in Syria war. Neutral


    The only thing that Holds Russia as a super military power is the Amazing Engineers and Scientist
    Russia have. But they dont repair planes.. neither they supervise quality controls .. thats the job
    of Russia military. it will not be surprising that many of this crashes are consequences of
    internal Sabotage ..traitors paid to sabotage ,Russia military and space industry,
    Because already Dmitry Rogozin was the one who came with that theory in public with the proton accidents issues.
    Later he was forced to change his opinions. When someone so high ranked says such things in public is not
    for coincidence. is however possible that the issues are related with leaving Russian aircraft in the open ,exposed
    to extreme cold in open air. Bad weather can damage aircraft parts.
    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 733
    Points : 726
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:01 pm

    These accidents also makes it harder for the armed forces to recruit servicemen.

    Who would want to serve in a military where there is a good chance of dying each time you fly?
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2120
    Points : 2114
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Regular on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:26 pm

    What?? Not all servicemen end up flying.
    Well at this point I expect drastic change in Russian aviation. Airframes are not getting any younger.
    There's already discussion going on about what needs to be done. Russians are stubborn bunch and decision makers are slow.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3646
    Points : 3628
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:44 pm

    3 were killed and the helicopter bumped off ground, indication it was pilot error since chopper turned over.

    So not only not Syria related, it's also not equipments fault.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4084
    Points : 4188
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:17 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:These accidents also makes it harder for the armed forces to recruit servicemen.

    Who would want to serve in a military where there is a good chance of dying each time you fly?

    exactly..

    This will significantly scare Russian citizens to join the army.. this can be disastrous ,if Putin
    don't act quickly and restore the confidence on Russia aviation. now were that the Naysayers
    saying that Russia accidents are normal ? Laughing

    A major reform needs to be done in Russia quality controls of their military bases.
    and new equipment for monitoring electric hardware and aircraft parts needed. But don't think
    Putin is going to do anything . He is so busy embarrassing Russia at any time he can.

    This also will have a major impact in weapons sales.. nobody will buy Russian aircrafts
    if they fall from the sky everyday.
    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 733
    Points : 726
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:52 pm

    Putin is getting old and declining as a leader. Old leaders want to preserve and live in the past, instead of reforming and modernizing.
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 603
    Points : 603
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    This is a longer phenomenon. Based on your nickname you are a Finn, right? I'm a Finn too.

    Finland used to be a grand duchy of Russia from 1809 to 1917. This was generally a good time for Finland. Finnish economy developed rapidly and also Finnish political and cultural institutions developed into the phase where independence was possible in 1917 (although it wouldn't have been possible without that Russian traitor Lenin. Lenin has always been well-liked in Finland because of this, there are even a few Lenin statues still standing in Finland).

    Yeah. Wink

    Your description of that era is accurate. Finland was comparatively rich and it started developing comparatively early mainly because the it had been part of Sweden for centuries. So there are some cultural reasons, homogeneous population as well, etc. Maybe some ethnic/biological ones too (I think you're familiar with Anatoly Karlin and his writings about race and IQ? Very interesting stuff), but Russian IQs are high nowadays, so the difference in potential was clearly modest.

    I think Russian Empire was very comparable to Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal...) actually. They used to be similarly poor until the second half of the 20th century, but nowadays they are almost as developed as Western Europe (especially Spain and even Italy). Compare that to Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe. What explains the difference in living standards in 2018? Very simple: "communism" and central planning meant stagnation from the 1970s onwards and then when the whole system collapsed, massive decline in living standards in the 90s. But since the late 90s and early 2000s EE has been catching up. So we should really wait until... 2030-40. That's all.

    Regular wrote:
    We can move this to Russia section or offtopic, ok?


    Russia doesn't look bad to those countries, but again, Russian can be so much more with right people in power.
    Putin brings stability, but there's that. Communism was stable, but it was stagnating

    I agree, this is my last post on this, but it is kind of related... Safety and all that.

    I didn't say that they're comparable to Africa in any way. Just compared to Finland, it's all relative. And as I mentioned: China and South Korea have similar problems. Why South Korea too? Because it got rich only quite recently, many people forget that.

    And I think you're too negative on Russia, if miketheterrible is the other extreme or something. Firstly, living standards vary quite a lot from country to country, even in Eastern Europe. Are we talking about Estonia or Ukraine? A huge, huge difference. Russian living standards actually compare quite favorably to EE, I'd say they're quite average for the region: Latvia, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia and they're actually higher than in Romania and Bulgaria.

    Russian PPP GDP per capita is comparable to those countries and even to Poland and Russia also has a very high human development index. Russia is not a negative outlier, and since around 2008 indicators like life expectancy, alcohol consumption, abortion rates, death rate (largely due to alcoholism), infant mortality and even homicide rate have massively improved.

    I think even those driving indicators have probably improved considerably and Russia is clearly not a huge negative outlier. Also in his recent speech, Putin was talking about all of those things: infrastructure, housing, living standards in general. So we should also wait a little bit to see what happens during his last term.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4084
    Points : 4188
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:55 pm

    Take a look at the news ,that Russian Media is showing recently.. Mar 6 2018..
    It shows the level of tensions between US and Russia... The things that are not told
    officially by the Russian government in public and instead told by friends of Putin in the media
    are the most interesting.



    If Russia wanted to send a message to PEntagon with meaningful graphics and without alarming the world
    over a new world war..or scaring investors in Russia ,The best place to send more stronger ultimatums will be to see what PUtin's close friends and close journalist are now saying in Russian media that Russia is very aware the Pentagon never miss a report.

    Message Russia is sending..
    -Sit down to the negotiating table for changing your policies and removing your missiles.
    -Don't mess with us ,our missiles are bigger.
    -The program is also telling Pentagon how vulnerable they are ,if Russia detonate nukes
    underwater on the atlantic.





    gaurav
    gaurav

    Posts : 377
    Points : 371
    Join date : 2013-02-19
    Age : 39
    Location : Blr

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  gaurav on Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:27 pm

    MikeTerrible wrote:3 were killed ...

    Only 3  ..
    A Mil Mi-8 multipurpose helicopter crashed in Russia’s North Caucasus republic of Chechnya, a spokesman for the local emergencies services told TASS on Wednesday.

    "According to preliminary information, up to eight people were killed in the incident," the spokesman said. "The information on casualties is being verified."

    He added that the helicopter presumably belonged to the Border Guard Service.



    More:
    http://tass.com/world/993173

    I think Russia does not need any Kinzhal or Avangard .. even AN-26 , AN 32 filled with hundreds of Russian suicide troopers willl be enough
    to "overwhelm" US missile defense in Romania and poland ..
    In this case AN-26 will make a subsonic dive from high altitude say 5 kms , on to the us missile defense and along with all the crew and military officers everybody will be killed..

    Putin will be happy because US missile defense got overwhelmed ..
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3646
    Points : 3628
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:37 pm

    First off Gaurav, you are a retard. You come from a shit country were people and soldiers die due to gross incompetence like lack of ammo.

    Second of all, go shit somewhere else

    Third off: http://tass.ru/proisshestviya/5016604

    Fourth: your comment is an insult to Russian soldiers, which I think is a warranted ban imo. I'll ask GarryB
    avatar
    par far

    Posts : 1787
    Points : 1962
    Join date : 2014-06-26

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  par far on Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:53 pm

    gaurav wrote:
    MikeTerrible wrote:3 were killed ...

    Only 3  ..
    A Mil Mi-8 multipurpose helicopter crashed in Russia’s North Caucasus republic of Chechnya, a spokesman for the local emergencies services told TASS on Wednesday.

    "According to preliminary information, up to eight people were killed in the incident," the spokesman said. "The information on casualties is being verified."

    He added that the helicopter presumably belonged to the Border Guard Service.



    More:
    http://tass.com/world/993173

    I think Russia does not need any Kinzhal or Avangard .. even AN-26 , AN 32 filled with hundreds of Russian suicide troopers willl be enough
    to "overwhelm" US missile defense in Romania and poland ..
    In this case AN-26 will make a subsonic dive from high altitude say 5 kms , on to the us missile defense and along with all the crew and military officers everybody will be killed..

    Putin will be happy because US missile defense got overwhelmed ..

    You are a fucking moron. It is terrible that this accident with the Russian Soldiers happened(RIP), this accident has sent shock waves through out the Russian Army and after, this accident older aircraft will be either replaced or go through full modernization. Accidents like this happen to every country.

    Putin won't be happy because this is not good for the moral of the Armed Forces and the country but he is not like Modi where he will call Washington to kiss American ass, so he can get new equipment, what Putin will do is kick ass and make sure adjustments are made to void something like this does not happen in the future.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8091
    Points : 8177
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:27 pm

    gaurav wrote:........
    I think Russia does not need any Kinzhal or Avangard .. even AN-26 , AN 32 filled with hundreds of Russian suicide troopers willl be enough
    to "overwhelm" US missile defense in Romania and poland ..
    In this case AN-26 will make a subsonic dive from high altitude say 5 kms , on to the us missile defense and along with all the crew and military officers everybody will be killed..

    Putin will be happy because US missile defense got overwhelmed ..

    Retard confirmed.
    avatar
    Karl Haushofer

    Posts : 733
    Points : 726
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:45 pm

    par far wrote: Accidents like this happen to every country.
    When was the last time the US lost 30 high ranking military officers in the same accident?
    avatar
    par far

    Posts : 1787
    Points : 1962
    Join date : 2014-06-26

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  par far on Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:05 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    par far wrote: Accidents like this happen to every country.
    When was the last time the US lost 30 high ranking military officers in the same accident?


    Aviation industry in Russia is behind the US(no nothing like this has happened in the US), there is no secret about that and that is why it happened(this will need to be addressed.) But trolls like yourself have made this worse than it needs to be.

    Sponsored content

    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 3 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:43 pm