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    "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

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    George1

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    "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:18 pm

    Part video, part CGI of the new low observable cruise missile with a small nuclear powered propulsion system which was apparently successfully tested in 2017. Presented during V.V. Putin's annual state-of-the-nation address today.



    Last edited by George1 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:05 am; edited 4 times in total
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    Nuclear powred cruise missile

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:06 pm

    Putin declares creation of unstoppable nuclear-powered missile

    Putin showed a video modelling the flight of a nuclear power plant-equipped cruise missile circumventing missile defenses

    MOSCOW, March 1. /TASS/. Russia has created a small-size super-powerful nuclear power plant that can be installed on a cruise missile, which will ensure an unlimited flight range and invulnerability to missile and air defense systems, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in his annual State of the Nation Address to the Federal Assembly on Thursday.

    "We’ve started the development of new types of strategic weapons that do not use ballistic flight paths on the way to the target. This means that the missile defense systems are useless as a counter-means and just senseless," Putin said that these cutting-edge weapon systems were based on the latest unique achievements of Russian scientists, designers and engineers.

    "One of them is creation of a small-size highly powerful nuclear power plant that can be planted inside the hull of a cruise missile identical to our air-launched X-101 or the United States’ Tomahawk, but at the same time is capable of guaranteeing a flight range that is dozens of times greater, which is practically unlimited," Putin said.

    "A low-flying low-visibility cruise missile armed with a nuclear warhead and possessing a practically unlimited range, unpredictable flight path and the capability to impregnate practically all interception lines is invulnerable to all existing and future anti-missile and air defense weapons," Putin said.

    At the end of 2017 Russia successfully launched the newest nuclear-powered cruise missile at the central proving ground, he went on.

    "During the flight the power plant achieved the design capacity and thrust. The launch of the missile and the tests on the ground allow for starting work to create a fundamentally new type of weapon - a strategic nuclear missile equipped with a nuclear power plant," Putin said.

    On a large screen he showed a video modelling the flight of a nuclear power plant-equipped cruise missile circumventing missile defenses. In the video a cruise missile was flying at a low altitude over rugged terrain and water surface.

    "This shows the way it will be coping with defense lines," Putin said about the missile’s maneuvers.

    "The range is unlimited, so the maneuvering can go on indefinitely," he explained.

    "As you may have guessed, no other country in the world has anything like that. Possibly, something similar will appear someday, but our guys will come up with something else by then," Putin said to draw applause.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/992226


    Last edited by George1 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:08 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Nuclear powered (yes, powered) cruise missile, unlimited range

    Srry my bad. Indeed this is nuclear powered cruise missile but not a hypersonic one. Anyway in less then 24 hours can reach any point of the world.


    Here is vid from MoD

    http://vote.mil.ru/vote/krnd.htm




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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:30 am

    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Nuclear powered (yes, powered) cruise missile, unlimited range

    Srry my bad. Indeed this is nuclear powered cruise missile but not a hypersonic one. Anyway in less then 24 hours can reach any point of the world.


    Here is vid from MoD

    http://vote.mil.ru/vote/krnd.htm


    [youtube]Xr7alYwCznQ


    How are they using nuclear power for a missile ?

    N bloody idea but they do according to pics... can cruise around the world will it be considered strategic ? Smile Smile))
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:How are they using nuclear power for a missile ?

    N bloody idea but they do according to pics... can cruise around the world will it be considered strategic ? Smile Smile))

    Sounds like a nuclear thermal engine? Use a white hot reactor core to heat a reaction fluid, eg air from a ram intake, to produce sustainer thrust. The trick is to effectively control the reactor energy output in relation to airflow and avoid overheating and burn-out. Experiments have been conducted on nuclear thermal engines since the 60s, but AFAIK no-one has miniaturized them sufficiently and reliably to power a GLCM... until now Very Happy
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    Isos

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Isos on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:33 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:How are they using nuclear power for a missile ?

    N bloody idea but they do according to pics... can cruise around the world will it be considered strategic ? Smile Smile))

    Sounds like a nuclear thermal engine?  Use a white hot reactor core to heat a reaction fluid, eg air from a ram intake, to produce sustainer thrust.  The trick is to effectively control the reactor energy output in relation to airflow and avoid overheating and burn-out.  Experiments have been conducted on nuclear thermal engines since the 60s, but AFAIK no-one has miniaturized them sufficiently and reliably to power a GLCM...  until now Very Happy

    It shouldn't be easy to put in service. The radiation of this thing are more dangerous than those on ICBM as they are in contact with more people. Specially for the pilot, it is just under its b*lls lol1
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    kvs

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  kvs on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:40 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:How are they using nuclear power for a missile ?

    N bloody idea but they do according to pics... can cruise around the world will it be considered strategic ? Smile Smile))

    Sounds like a nuclear thermal engine?  Use a white hot reactor core to heat a reaction fluid, eg air from a ram intake, to produce sustainer thrust.  The trick is to effectively control the reactor energy output in relation to airflow and avoid overheating and burn-out.  Experiments have been conducted on nuclear thermal engines since the 60s, but AFAIK no-one has miniaturized them sufficiently and reliably to power a GLCM...  until now Very Happy

    According to Putin the power core is 100 times smaller than a typical naval nuclear reactor but delivers a higher power density (not total
    power of course). It is not clear what this is, but it is indeed a world leading tech breakthrough.
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:How are they using nuclear power for a missile ?

    N bloody idea but they do according to pics... can cruise around the world will it be considered strategic ? Smile Smile))

    Sounds like a nuclear thermal engine?  Use a white hot reactor core to heat a reaction fluid, eg air from a ram intake, to produce sustainer thrust.  The trick is to effectively control the reactor energy output in relation to airflow and avoid overheating and burn-out.  Experiments have been conducted on nuclear thermal engines since the 60s, but AFAIK no-one has miniaturized them sufficiently and reliably to power a GLCM...  until now Very Happy

    It shouldn't be easy to put in service. The radiation of this thing are more dangerous than those on ICBM as they are in contact with more people. Specially for the pilot, it is just under its b*lls lol1

    The reactor would be shielded such that with the control rods inserted (ie inactive state) the shield would keep radiation down to a minimum to permit weapon handling. In flight the rods are withdrawn and the radiation level soars, and at that point the main design criteria is limiting the radiation received by the guidance electronics.
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    Zivo

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Zivo on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:55 am

    Sorry I haven't posted here in a while.

    There's a lot to be said about these new weapons. When I heard about the concept of a nuclear powered cruise missile I remembered that last fall a radiation plume was detected over Europe, that originated from Russia. The source of the radiation was never explained, the russian government denied there was an accident. Now I'm wondering if it came from a live engine test of this missile.
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    GarryB

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    Nuclear powred cruise missile

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:13 am

    Regarding the subsonic cruise missile with nuclear propulsion... the US made a huge cruise missile in the 1950s or 60s that was nuclear powered... they decided not to make it however.

    It was going to be a ramjet powered missile that flys at mach 3 at low altitude... It was going to have unlimited flight range and a payload of something like 24 warheads that could be fired up as the missile flew along that would then fall back to earth and detonate well behind the missile.

    The nuclear propulsion had two options... one where the reactor heated the air directly, and another option where the reactor heated a material that was then pumped into the engine to heat the air. The former was easier and simpler but meant the air got irradiated as it went through so it left radioactive waste in the air as it moved. The latter option was less efficient but much much cleaner.

    I rather suspect this missile uses the latter method as it is only subsonic.

    In comparison a normal jet engine uses fuel that is burned in the air to generate a lot of heat... in a nuclear engine the nuclear reaction generates the heat with the air flowing through being the medium being heated to generate the thrust.

    I rather suspect these missiles will only be used during WWIII rather than in places like Syria, but after WWIII starts they could be launched from anywhere and could fly for years before going after their final intended targets safe in the knowledge that the ICBMs and SLBMs will have made air defence almost non existent.

    An equivalent hypersonic model would also be devastating with a scramjet propulsion method that would exclude the possibilities of flameouts as the heat is generated by nuclear reaction rather than combustion...

    But I am sure the US is much better off having its ABM system in Europe... that will make them safe... Smile
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:...What I want to know is where did that test missiles land and how much cleanup was required?

    One assumption is that the test missiles might have a parachute landing option...similar to the Tu-143 Reis

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    This guy has a theory that the nuclear-powered missile

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:13 pm

    This guy has a theory that the nuclear-powered missile is a ramjet-powered one, with the problem of ramjet fuel-injection at high speeds having been solved by using a small nuclear reactor instead of fuel.
    The nuclear reactor will heat the air, which then gets ejected out the back (I would assume in a plasma-like state).
    As materials and theory have improved since the 60s, and the air won't be going through the reactor - the outgoing air won't be radioactively contaminated like what the US's experiments produced.

    This is all good and well but the guy makes constant reference to the missile moving at Mach 20. I don't recall that claim being made in the presentation, or any speed figure being given for that missile - but then maybe I missed it.

    In Russian only unfortunately.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:This guy has a theory that the nuclear-powered missile is a ramjet-powered one, ..........

    This is all good and well but the guy makes constant reference to the missile moving at Mach 20. I don't recall that claim being made in the presentation, or any speed figure being given for that missile - but then maybe I missed it.

    In Russian only unfortunately.
    .........

    And it's not Kinzhal, it's the other thing
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:39 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    The nuclear reactor will heat the air, which then gets ejected out the back (I would assume in a plasma-like state).

    Ekhm so we achieved the first case of perpetuum mobile respekt respekt respekt
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:55 am

    flamming_python wrote:This guy has a theory that the nuclear-powered missile is a ramjet-powered one, with the problem of ramjet fuel-injection at high speeds having been solved by using a small nuclear reactor instead of fuel.
    The nuclear reactor will heat the air, which then gets ejected out the back (I would assume in a plasma-like state).
    As materials and theory have improved since the 60s, and the air won't be going through the reactor - the outgoing air won't be radioactively contaminated like what the US's experiments produced.

    This is all good and well but the guy makes constant reference to the missile moving at Mach 20. I don't recall that claim being made in the presentation, or any speed figure being given for that missile - but then maybe I missed it.

    It's a nuclear thermal engine.  The reactor generates heat, and the air from the ramjet intake is used to cool the reactor, with the resulting hot air being used to propel the engine.  Early experiments into nuclear thermal engines (like the US NERVA for spacecraft propulsion) were rocket engines, where the reaction fluid/coolant was liquid hydrogen pumped into "combustion chamber" ie through channels in the reactor core.  This led to the concept of an air-breathing engine  (see below for a nuke-powered turbojet by General Electric in the 50s for powering a nuke-propelled aircraft) and the Russians have clearly developed the idea into practical and greatly miniaturized hardware.  



    The presentation probably mentions M20 as a potential speed when used in a HGV using a nuclear source powering a scram-jet sustainer motor.  This would allow the HGV to maintain speed and not slow down as it maneuvers in the upper atmosphere (as well as enhance its maneuvering capacity using TVC), and it is plausible that the tech developed for the GLCM subsonic missile at very low altitudes could also serve in a high-altitude application.  The flow controls and reactor power loop tuning would be radically different, but the basics are same.  

    The Russians will likely work on perfecting the Avangard/Pr 4202/what-ever-its-called HGV first (ie a passive maneuverable glider) then adapt the design to include a scramjet sustainer.  The beauty of a nuclear powered HGV is its lack of requirement for fuel, saving mass and reducing dimensions.  It would however limit its use to strategic nuclear weapons, no good for a Global-Strike style conventional weapon.
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:01 am

    The main problem with scramjets is to get fuel to burn at supersonic speeds.

    Ramjets suck air in and burn fuel and it goes out the back faster than it came in so the result is thrust.

    The problem with a ramjet is that even flying at mach 5 you need to constrict the air intake so the air is flowing subsonically threw the engine so the fuel will burn... as you can guess when the goal is high speed air flowing through the engine having to slow it down to burn the fuel is a huge problem that greatly reduces the thrust this engine can generate.

    With a nuclear powered ramjet where there is no combustion, it can be a scramjet like engine because having a big wide open intake means more air flowing through the engine and more thrust out the back... and like a scramjet it would work at any speed... up to and beyond orbital speed if the airframe can take the heat...

    The nuclear powered cruise missile however is a different missile... it would be a low flying small cruise missile with unlimited range... it could even be supersonic but at low altitude it wont be faster than mach 1.4 or so most likely.

    At higher altitude it should be much faster but easier to detect over longer ranges...

    Hopefully the Kinzhal does not use nuclear propulsion as that would rather limit it to WWIII strategic nuclear war scenarios...
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:31 am

    Big_Gazza wrote: then adapt the design to include a scramjet sustainer.  The beauty of a nuclear powered HGV is its lack of requirement for fuel, saving mass and reducing dimensions.  It would however limit its use to strategic nuclear weapons, no good for a Global-Strike style conventional weapon.

    By limiting you mean most of tasks can be delegated to conventional hypersonic missiles?

    BTW with 20 Ma (eartk level)  

    Energy =  0,5x1x(20x343)2 [kg*(m/s)2] =1,176,490 = 281*4,184MJ

    Energy 1 kg TNT - 4.184 MJ

    So 1 ton warhead is like 280 tons TNT something like tactical nuke. Guess enough for CV or small base Smile I'd assume a warhead built to fragment on impact so passing energy would be easier but it i just my guess.





    GarryB wrote: Hopefully the Kinzhal does not use nuclear propulsion as that would rather limit it to WWIII strategic nuclear war scenarios...

    Why energy source (not engine) has to do with that?

    it can same as Iskander have tactical nuke or conventional warhead. Anyway a missile designated specifically to kill CVSGsis hardly to use in different scenarios Smile

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Arrow on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm

    So small nuclear powered cruise missile flying at subsonic speed and very low is better option than  nuclear powered cruise missile with scramjet engine flying about 20M ? Hypersonic missile are more dangerous and more difficult to intercept?

    I think that a cruise missile flying at the subsonic speed is a very easy target for American defense systems. When it is detected it's easy to intercept it. Hypersonic missiles that are easily detectable but difficult to intercept are more dangerous. Scrajmet engine with nuclear propulson thisa is better idea.
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:This guy has a theory that the nuclear-powered missile is a ramjet-powered one, ..........

    This is all good and well but the guy makes constant reference to the missile moving at Mach 20. I don't recall that claim being made in the presentation, or any speed figure being given for that missile - but then maybe I missed it.

    In Russian only unfortunately.
    .........

    And it's not Kinzhal, it's the other thing

    Right you are.

    Garry do we have a thread for the nuclear-powered missile? Maybe move the discussion there?
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:41 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    And it's not Kinzhal, it's the other thing

    Right you are.

    Garry do we have a thread for the nuclear-powered missile? Maybe move the discussion there?

    Here it is:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7211-nuclear-powered-cruise-missile
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    George1

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Garry do we have a thread for the nuclear-powered missile? Maybe move the discussion there?

    George1 is always one step ahead my friend Very Happy
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  kvs on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:29 pm

    Arrow wrote:So small nuclear powered cruise missile flying at subsonic speed and very low is better option than  nuclear powered cruise missile with scramjet engine flying about 20M ? Hypersonic missile are more dangerous and more difficult to intercept?

    I think   that a cruise missile flying at the subsonic speed is a very easy target for American defense systems. When it is detected it's easy to intercept it. Hypersonic missiles that are easily detectable but difficult to intercept are more dangerous. Scrajmet engine with nuclear propulson thisa is better idea.

    Cruise missiles are by definition subsonic. They travel at low altitudes and in very convoluted paths. Trying to do this
    with a hypersonic missile is basically pointless.
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:BTW with 20 Ma (eartk level)  

    Energy =  0,5x1x(20x343)2 [kg*(m/s)2] =1,176,490 = 281*4,184MJ

    Energy 1 kg TNT - 4.184 MJ

    So 1 ton warhead is like 280 tons TNT something like tactical nuke. Guess enough for CV or small base Smile I'd assume a warhead built to fragment on impact so passing energy would be easier but it i just my guess.

    I think your calc is a little off.  Considering a 1T/1,000kg glide vehicle travelling at M20, Ek = 0.5 x 1,000 x (20 x 343)^2  = 23.5GJ.    With 1kg of TNT delivering 4.18 MJ, the HGV energy is equal to 5,630 kg of TNT.  

    While that's a lot of energy, the impact of a HGV would lack the large volume of super-hot high-pressure gas so typical of HE detonation. Against a ship it would be a penetrating-hit like a solid slug, and would tend to punch a hole through the structure and equipment, and while enormously destructive, its doesn't have the localised blast effect of a HE payload.

    Generally speaking, unlike nuclear weapons (which are extremely efficient at converting energy into radiant heat), kinetic impacts need to be directed into solid unyielding bodies in order to efficiently generate heat (eg like meteor strikes into rock).  Impacts against man-made structures comprised of multiple thin partitions and voids (eg a ship) produce much less heat as energy is mostly dissipated in tearing through and deforming metal.  What heat that is generated doesn't produce much blast (no high-temperature gases/vapours released at these energy levels) unless secondary energy sources like fuel or ordnance are ignited/detonated.

    M20 HGV are top-shelf high-cost weapons, and any conventional version will need a decent HE payload to be fully effective, but they are mass limited so a few hundred kgs is all you could conceivably carry.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote: Hopefully the Kinzhal does not use nuclear propulsion as that would rather limit it to WWIII strategic nuclear war scenarios...

    Why energy source (not engine) has to do with that?

    it can same as Iskander have tactical nuke or conventional warhead. Anyway a missile designated specifically to kill CVSGsis hardly to use in different scenarios Smile

    The issue is that a weapon using a nuclear engine cannot be used in a conventional conflict as it will litter the impact site with highly radioactive debris, and such would hand a propaganda windfall to an enemy.  The Yankistani bastards manage to propagandize the Russians clearing terrorists from Aleppo, or distorting their intervention in Georgia after Saakashvillis blitzkrieg and targeted killing of Russian peace-keepers.  These evil cunts would have a field day if Russia used a GLCM with a nuclear motor and contaminated an otherwise legitimate target with lethal radiation.
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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:48 pm

    Arrow wrote:So small nuclear powered cruise missile flying at subsonic speed and very low is better option than  nuclear powered cruise missile with scramjet engine flying about 20M ? Hypersonic missile are more dangerous and more difficult to intercept?

    I think   that a cruise missile flying at the subsonic speed is a very easy target for American defense systems. When it is detected it's easy to intercept it. Hypersonic missiles that are easily detectable but difficult to intercept are more dangerous. Scrajmet engine with nuclear propulson thisa is better idea.

    You misunderstand the threat such weapons pose.  Consider this - you know there are dozens of small, stealthy, low flying LACMs flying around in the sparse, uninhabited spaces of the planet, and when they are ready, they will approach the continental US and deliver thermonukes to your cities.  You don't know what direction they will come from, and you don't know when they will attack.  You will have to build an air defense network that could monitor such a vast area on a 24/7/365 basis, detect such weapons before they can hit their targets, scramble interceptors within range, and have this vast system remain functional after a Russian strategic counter-strike.  If the missiles are smart, they will monitor the EM bands used for AD radars and run algorithms to locate and map the holes in the remaining radar coverage and avoid the residual defense, further complicating your defense.

    Errr... no.  Not gonna happen without a multi-trillion dollar expenditure, and the US just doesn't have the resources, despite their endless exceptionalist cock-stroking braggadocio....

    Final thought - at the moment we are talking about nuke-powered LACMs, but lets extend the idea to stealthy UAVs (eg small robot versions of a B-2) each carrying a large internal warhead, eg thermonuke kamikaze. Yeah, that's an air defense nightmare...
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    kvs

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    Re: "Burevestnik" Nuclear-powered cruise missile

    Post  kvs on Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:39 pm

    American bleaters always invoked their cruise missiles as a way to defeat Russia. Now Russia has totally turned the tables on them.
    Recall the surprise that Russian cruise missiles managed to reach Syria. NATO idiots really believed that Russians and the USSR could
    not produce viable cruise missiles. The usual Napoleon and Hitler syndrome, meat-headed chauvinism and arrogance that dismisses
    Russia's true capabilities. Unfortunately, this severe western mental disease results in millions of dead civilians.

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