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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:59 pm

    George1 wrote: Kinzhal is an air-launched complex, no relation with Zircon

    I'd expect a lot of technological commonality between a Russian air-launched hypersonic weapons (eg Kinzhal) and a surface/submarine launched weapon (eg Zircon). Kinzhal peformance sounds to be higher due to the increased energy at the point of launch?

    Usually we have to scavenge through all sorts of sources to scrape together info regarding these systems. Now it seems like a few Christmas have come all at once! russia
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    Isos

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:00 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    hoom wrote:Obviously launching from a plane significantly improves range but would it make enough of a difference to bump range up from 500km all the way to the quoted 2000km?

    I'm just guessing but the MiG-31's high top speed must play a role

    The 500km range of iskander is limited by the international treaty not by its size I think.

    hoom

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:43 pm

    True, could be the standard produced missile has space that can be used for a bigger fuel tank in non-treaty restricted air-launch/antishipping version...

    I wonder if Tu-22M3/Tu-160 will be able to carry this as well?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:45 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    I'd expect a lot of technological commonality between a Russian air-launched hypersonic weapons (eg Kinzhal) and a surface/submarine launched weapon (eg Zircon).  Kinzhal peformance sounds to be higher due to the increased energy at the point of launch?

    Usually we have to scavenge through all sorts of sources to scrape together info regarding these systems.  Now it seems like a few Christmas have come all at once! russia


    Kindzhal has clear objective: to keep CVSGs at bay. With 2000 range + radius of MiG-31 should  be fairly easy.

    But

    1) Never heard Zircon is to have nuclear warhead (and Kindzhal will have)  
    2) Size - Zircon has to fit to UKSK
    3)  Speed: Zircon 8 Kindzal 10Ma (BTW it needs no explosive warhead - TNT equivalent is equal to kinetic energy by 3 km/s )


    Putin to US president: Were you on Santa's naughty or nice list this year? Sarmatian will bring you one Smile






    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Sounds like a nuclear thermal engine?  Use a white hot reactor core to heat a reaction fluid, eg air from a ram intake, to produce sustainer thrust.  The trick is to effectively control the reactor energy output in relation to airflow and avoid overheating and burn-out.  Experiments have been conducted on nuclear thermal engines since the 60s, but AFAIK no-one has miniaturized them sufficiently and reliably to power a GLCM...  until now Very Happy

    Anti-Putin liberastic Kommersant already stated that Putin denied laws of physics. But journo writing this brought no proves and has not even technical background.
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    Isos

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:25 pm

    hoom wrote:True, could be the standard produced missile has space that can be used for a bigger fuel tank in non-treaty restricted air-launch/antishipping version...

    I wonder if Tu-22M3/Tu-160 will be able to carry this as well?

    They won't need any navy if tu-160 can lunch this thing. They can reach any part of the world with this. They made look all the other weapons like oniks s 400... useless.

    hoom

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:36 pm

    This is only a 2000km range, not the nuclear powered cruise missile.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:32 am

    It looks suspiciously like an air launched Iskander says the Drive. Nothing bad about that!

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile
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    zg18

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  zg18 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:41 am

    JohninMK wrote:It looks suspiciously like an air launched Iskander says the Drive. Nothing bad about that!

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile

    I just wanted to post same article Smile

    An air-launched ballistic missile is a relevant capability that dramatically expends the reach (by roughly four times), deployability, and flexibility over existing Iskander missiles. But if this missile does indeed have anti-ship capabilities, that's a huge leap in capability for Russia's already incredibly dense anti-ship missile arsenal. wrote:

    This development will likely only increase calls for broader, more layered ballistic missile defense, not to mention the fielding of new targeting new sensors, and the distributing of some "shooter" roles to airborne systems. This includes those armed with directed energy weapons (lasers) and even very-long range air-to-air missiles. wrote:

    Kinzhal enables win-win scenario for Moscow, it forces US to either accept capitulation on ABM or to spend additional gazzilion dollars on ABM that are needed elsewhere. Putin playing straight out of Reagan`s playbook.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:31 am

    JohninMK wrote:It looks suspiciously like an air launched Iskander says the Drive. Nothing bad about that!

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile

    Meh, Iskander is a rocket and flies like 6-7 Ma, no wings

    Kindzhalis 20000 (ok energy high due to MiG-31) and 10 Ma. But unlikely a rocket but ramjet and has wings
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:07 am

    Sustaining a mach 10 speed over 2,000km suggests to me that it has a rocket but also a scramjet motor, so while it might look the same as the Iskander, I rather suspect it is quite different inside.

    the Iskander is all rocket and accelerates to about mach 7 or so and high altitude...

    But with a scramjet motor at mach 10 peak speed that means fuel for running the scramjet engine for about 10 minutes to reach 2,000km...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:21 am

    Zivo wrote:Sorry I haven't posted here in a while.

    There's a lot to be said about these new weapons. When I heard about the concept of a nuclear powered cruise missile I remembered that last fall a radiation plume was detected over Europe, that originated from Russia. The source of the radiation was never explained, the russian government denied there was an accident. Now I'm wondering if it came from a live engine test of this missile.


    Good to see you back man!!! thumbsup



    As for that test I assume it was definitely the case but radiation levels were pretty small in fact way below any health hazard levels so that's a big upside

    What I want to know is where did that test missiles land and how much cleanup was required?



    Also, we need separate topic for this nuke-powered missile, this tread is about Kinzhal anti-ship missile
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:03 am

    Apparently the full designation of the missile is Kh-47M2 Kinzhal

    Top Russian general reveals secrets of new Kinzhal hypersonic complex

    In an interview with a TASS on 1 March, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Aerospace Force Colonel General Sergei Surovikin has revealed the secrets about the new KH-47M2 Kinzhal hypersonic complex.

    According to Sergei Surovikin, the new Russian  KH-47M2 Kinzhal has been developed on the basis of the upgraded Mikoyan MiG-31 aircraft. The new system designed for a strike at targets at a distance of over 2,000 km that allows manned aircraft remain at a safe distance.

    “The fast-speed fixed-wing carrier allows delivering a missile with unique performance characteristics to the area of its discharge within minutes. The main propulsion unit mounted on the aero-ballistic missile accelerates a warhead to hypersonic speed within seconds. The missile’s maneuvering at speeds exceeding the speed of sound by several times allows it to reliably breach all air defense and anti-ballistic missile defense systems that exist or are being developed,” the commander said.

    The length of the KH-47M2 is about three meters, externally it is distinguished by the air intake of the ramjet air-jet engine projecting at the bottom – a similar configuration is used on the latest strategic missiles KH-101. The speed of the new missile exceeds 4 Mach. One of the carriers of the new weapon also will be the Su-57 fighter.

    http://defence-blog.com/news/top-russian-general-reveals-secrets-new-kinzhal-hypersonic-complex.html

       
    JohninMK wrote:
       It looks suspiciously like an air launched Iskander says the Drive. Nothing bad about that!

       http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile

    Definately looks like it externaly

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    GarryB

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:21 am

    Well we know the "bomber" version of the MiG-31... the MiG-31 equivalent of the MiG-25RB, had a standard payload of 6 dumb bombs, two under the inner wing pylon and four under the fuselage where the R-33s normally go.

    The standard bombs were FAB-1500s, but fitted with special heat resistant fuses so they could be carried and dropped at mach 2.5.

    That would be a payload of 9 tons at mach 2.5, though the weapon shown would likely have more drag it is unlikely to be heavier than 9 tons.

    The MiG-25 carried four R-40 missiles which were rather large and had large aerodynamic surfaces at mach 2.8, so again I would expect this loadout should allow for such flight parameters... especially if it is an upgraded MiG perhaps with new heat resistant materials that are lighter than steel.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:45 am

    GarryB wrote:Sustaining a mach 10 speed over 2,000km suggests to me that it has a rocket but also a scramjet motor, so while it might look the same as the Iskander, I rather suspect it is quite different inside.

    the Iskander is all rocket and accelerates to about mach 7 or so and high altitude...

    But with a scramjet motor at mach 10 peak speed that means fuel for running the scramjet engine for about 10 minutes to reach 2,000km...

    From the other hand Iskander weights like 4,700kg and has warhead about 800kg if they traded warhead for another engine and extra fuel.  BTW is last part of missile goes 10Ma then you dont need any explosives really.

    But for the other hand either you have gas dynamic thrust control or wings to maneuver Razz

    Su-57 as carrier could explain why this is a good candidate for Russian deck fighter.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:34 pm

    zg18 wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:It looks suspiciously like an air launched Iskander says the Drive. Nothing bad about that!

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile

    I just wanted to post same article Smile





    Kinzhal enables win-win scenario for Moscow, it forces US to either accept capitulation on ABM or to spend additional gazzilion dollars on ABM that are needed elsewhere. Putin playing straight out of Reagan`s playbook.

    Where have you been? You were missed here.
    Good to see you back.
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    zg18

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  zg18 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:18 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Where have you been? You were missed here.
    Good to see you back.

    Thanks!

    I had some pressing matters but i follow RDF regularly.


    Austin

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:23 pm

    Glavkom VKS Russia revealed the secret of the hypersonic rocket "Dagger"

    https://rg.ru/2018/03/01/glavkom-vks-rossii-raskryl-sekret-giperzvukovoj-rakety-kinzhal.html

    The commander-in-chief of the Air and Space Forces of the Russian Federation Colonel-General Sergey Surovikin spoke about the capabilities and features of the newest hypersonic missile X-47M2 "Dagger".

    - A high-speed carrier aircraft delivers an aeroballistic missile to the discharge area in minutes. Further the march engine accelerates the ammunition to hypersonic speed in seconds. At the end of the trajectory, an all-weather homing head is turned on, it ensures the required accuracy and selectivity of target destruction at any time of the day, "said Surovikin.

    The flight to the target also takes a few seconds, which excludes the interception of the Dagger by air defense means. The length of the X-47M2 is about three meters, the speed of the ammunition exceeds 10 Mach, the range of its flight is 2000 kilometers. Since December 1, 2017, "Dagger" is being tested in combat combat operation in the Southern Military District with interceptors MiG-31BM.

    - Maneuvering the missile at speeds several times the speed of sound, it allows it to be guaranteed to overcome all existing and prospective air defense and missile defense systems. The effectiveness of the "Dagger" has been repeatedly confirmed in state trials. Now the issues of combat use of new weapons are being worked out, "the commander-in-chief added.
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    Zivo

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Zivo on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:34 pm

    The question remains, is it iskander or a derivative of the system? Does the aircraft's initial velocity and altitude explain the notable gain in speed and range?

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:40 pm

    Zivo wrote:The question remains, is it iskander or a derivative of the system? Does the aircraft's initial velocity and altitude explain the notable gain in speed and range?

    It's way too fast and has too much range to be Iskander but first stage is most likely Iskander derivative, they used something simple to get the fist one ''up to speed''
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    gaurav

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  gaurav on Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote: It's way too fast and has too much range to be Iskander but first stage is most likely Iskander derivative,
    they used something simple to get the fist one ''up to speed''

    This Dagger is really creating "waves" in the west .We know the Deep state government of USA is trembling/shaking in it boots with
    this ammunition . They have not slept since President showed this on his speech.
    From the pic it just looks like an big ammunition like a 2 ton bomb.
    This is not even a missile .. for the west this is just barrel bomb .. They are thinking this is Assad barrel bombs..  Cool
    I think personally (Trump) would be cuttign cakes (celebrating ,jumping with joy) after this Putin speech.
    His enemies are sht their pants in  deep state.


    Yaah this social media just looks at the phto and starts comparing things.

    Iskander was INF treaty compliant with less than 500 kms. Where as this Dagger is 2000 plus kilometres.
    Russian ground forces have had historically different logistics and armaments  than air forces.
    This Dagger is a KTRV product where as Iskander was dedicated ground forces product.(Probably KBM).
    KBM and KTRV are completely different entities.
    Iskander was a rocket and dagger  well supposedly some alien tech (Scramjet engine).
    As pointed out by many people here

    Iskander deployed in 2005 circa and Dagger deployed in 2017 mid probably ..many generation different.
    THere is full difference of decade in their deployment.
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    Zivo

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Zivo on Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Zivo wrote:The question remains, is it iskander or a derivative of the system? Does the aircraft's initial velocity and altitude explain the notable gain in speed and range?

    It's way too fast and has too much range to be Iskander but first stage is most likely Iskander derivative, they used something simple to get the fist one ''up to speed''

    Iskander is single stage, solid propellant. So without notable modifications to the hull, it couldn't use a two stage method to achieve this performance. Upgraded propellants could improve range and velocity, but I find it hard to believe you could get more than a 50% gain in a single generational leap in propellant technology. We are talking about a +30% gain in velocity and a 400% increase in range.
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    Zivo

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Zivo on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:59 pm



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    BKP

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  BKP on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Sustaining a mach 10 speed over 2,000km suggests to me that it has a rocket but also a scramjet motor, so while it might look the same as the Iskander, I rather suspect it is quite different inside.

    I'm not seeing an inlet.
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:35 am

    But for the other hand either you have gas dynamic thrust control or wings to maneuver Razz

    They have already displayed vectored thrust jet engine nozzles... so no big deal really.

    The question remains, is it iskander or a derivative of the system? Does the aircraft's initial velocity and altitude explain the notable gain in speed and range?

    A sidewinder missile launched at low altitude has much much shorter range...

    Very simply a solid rocket motor burns for x amount of time with x amount of thrust.

    From a stationary start in the thick low altitude air the top speed is rather limited and as its range is largely determined by its speed and weight and aerodynamic shape the faster you can get it moving the further it will go.

    Having it at probably 15-20km altitude launch height plus already moving at mach 2 plus means its rocket motor can probably get it up to mach 9 and perhaps 40+km altitude... once it is up there a scramjet motor is in its element and could run for far longer than any liquid rocket motor because it is scooping up the air it uses to burn as it flys along so it just needs to carry a fuel and not an oxidiser.

    Iskander is single stage, solid propellant. So without notable modifications to the hull, it couldn't use a two stage method to achieve this performance. Upgraded propellants could improve range and velocity, but I find it hard to believe you could get more than a 50% gain in a single generational leap in propellant technology. We are talking about a +30% gain in velocity and a 400% increase in range.

    The Iskander is limited to 500km by treaty, not by design... I seem to remember the missile the Iskander is based upon with pretty much exactly the same shape had a range of 2,000km as well... I believe the NATO codename was Spider.

    Changing to scramjet totally explains the increase in speed and range.

    I'm not seeing an inlet.

    No inlet on the air launched version of Yakhont either... it falls off just after launch to make it aerodynamic... it does not need to use the air intake until after the solid rocket motor has burned out... then the fairing is jettisoned and the intake starts sucking in air for the ramjet to operate... though I suspect in this case this will be a pure scramjet that does not operate in subsonic air flows... simply because it would not need to.

    I mean we are not talking out of the bounds of reality... I mean look at this image...:



    So a 4.5 ton 9+ metre long rocket/ramjet powered Moskit missile under the belly of an Su-33 with a 2.5 ton 8+ metre long rocket ramjet powered Yakhont developed a few years later sitting next to it...

    The Sunburn entered service in the 1980s on Sovremmeny class Destroyers and the Onyx replaced it soon after in new ships... now I understand disbelief at the numbers but ramjet performance clearly improved in that period and the step to scramjet is enormous... it would be like the pre WWII period with no jet engines talking about a fast high flying jet that could fly from the Soviet Union to the US and back with weapons... they would never have believed it because with propellers it would be impossible to fly supersonically let alone that far.

    Jet engines raised the speed to efficient high subsonic planes with enormous range.

    Scramjet engines make high speed much easier and because of the high speed you only need to run a scramjet engine for 10 minutes to fly 2,000km, so long range is not so hard... note the only other option for high speed is rockets and they only burn for minutes at most most of the time anyway.
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    BKP

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  BKP on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    No inlet on the air launched version of Yakhont either... it falls off just after launch to make it aerodynamic... it does not need to use the air intake until after the solid rocket motor has burned out... then the fairing is jettisoned and the intake starts sucking in air for the ramjet to operate... though I suspect in this case this will be a pure scramjet that does not operate in subsonic air flows... simply because it would not need to.

    I mean we are not talking out of the bounds of reality... I mean look at this image...

    Okay, I suppose it is possible then. Thanks. Smile

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