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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

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    Isos

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am

    Arrow wrote:This is typical ballistic missile. Ballistic missiles or RV maneuvers only in the atmosphere in terminal phase.

    Iskander is a ballistic missile and has a far slower speed which confirms that kinzhal is not a BM because it flies lower than BM but with a greater speed.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 06, 2018 2:49 am

    Arrow wrote:This missile can maneuver only in the terminal phase. It's just a ballistic missile.

    do you have source?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 am

    Arrow wrote:This missile can maneuver only in the terminal phase. It's just a ballistic missile.

    You're full of shit. It seems to based on an Iskander (a fact you've accepted), yet the Iskander is known to be a quasi-ballistic weapon which constantly adjusts its trajectory using steering vanes in its engine nozzle (which remain lit in sustainer mode for the flight duration).

    I've long since ceased to bother with the trollish junk you post...
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 am

    Not much that is typical about this weapon... not surprising that HATO is responding... soon we will be told SM-3 can engage much faster targets anyway...
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Arrow wrote:This missile can maneuver only in the terminal phase. It's just a ballistic missile.

    You're full of shit.  It seems to based on an Iskander (a fact you've accepted), yet the Iskander is known to be a quasi-ballistic weapon which constantly adjusts its trajectory using steering vanes in its engine nozzle (which remain lit in sustainer mode for the flight duration).

    I've long since ceased to bother with the trollish junk you post...

    He's too busy regurgitating the horse feces Foreign Policy mag fed to him. Embarassed
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun May 06, 2018 11:45 am

    Is it possible to add terminal sea skimming to the kinzhal. Even with speed and maneuverability, US SAMs like the SM-3/6 are specifically made for destroying high flying hypersonic missiles or satellites.
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    Hole

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Sun May 06, 2018 11:58 am

    The are not mady to destroy hypersonic missiles. They are mad to destroy ballistic missiles which do not change their trajectory.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun May 06, 2018 12:01 pm

    Hole wrote:The are not mady to destroy hypersonic missiles. They are mad to destroy ballistic missiles which do not change their trajectory.

    If the kinzhal has a solid fuel engine and has the same trajectory as the iskander, why isnt it ballistic?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 06, 2018 12:14 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote: If the kinzhal has a solid fuel engine and has the same trajectory as the iskander, why isnt it ballistic?

    Same reason why Iskander is not ballistic? it is , but it is not flying on optimal ballistic trajectory (like Scud) but can change course and maneuver in all parts of trajectory. Same with kinzhal




    GarryB wrote:Not much that is typical about this weapon... not surprising that HATO is responding... soon we will be told SM-3 can engage much faster targets anyway...

    it can! it can miss targets of any speed Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil





    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is it possible to add terminal sea skimming to the kinzhal. Even with speed and maneuverability, US SAMs like the SM-3/6 are specifically made for destroying high flying hypersonic missiles or satellites.

    So far going almost vertical with hypersonic speed is much more effective AFAIK
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    Hole

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Sun May 06, 2018 4:23 pm

    The solid fuel rocket motor is possibly from the Iskander. But it is only there to accelerate the missile to a high speed and its service ceiling, after that the scramjet takes over, after that point the Kinzhal can maneuver like an aircraft.

    Arrow

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Arrow on Sun May 06, 2018 6:41 pm

    Kinzhal does not have a scramjet engine. Scramjet needs a lot of air inlets. Kinzhal is not here.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 06, 2018 6:59 pm

    Arrow wrote:Kinzhal does not have a scramjet engine. Scramjet needs a lot of air inlets. Kinzhal is not here.

    It also doesn't have photon warhead and battery charger, how does any of it affect it's speed?

    Use your brain moron, it's aerobalistic missile, if you put air inlets on it (that would serve no purpose here) or anything else that might increase drag you will drastically lower it's speed and range.

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Arrow on Sun May 06, 2018 7:11 pm

    See what a scramjet missile looks like.



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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 06, 2018 7:39 pm

    Arrow wrote:Kinzhal does not have a scramjet engine. Scramjet needs a lot of air inlets. Kinzhal is not here.

    how does it relate to being able to use gas rudders or being hypersonic?! besides whether k if Kiznah has scram jet or not - iyup t doesn't look like Zircon/Brahmos II but none of us have seen it in flight neither so you are just guessing without proofs
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    Hole

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Sun May 06, 2018 10:00 pm



    The grey part is the solid fuel rocket Booster, propably from the Iskander.
    The with part is the Missile with the scramjet. You can see in the first video (CG) how it separates from the rest and flies towards the target.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  flamming_python on Mon May 07, 2018 1:15 am

    Arrow wrote:Kinzhal does not have a scramjet engine. Scramjet needs a lot of air inlets. Kinzhal is not here.

    Kinzhal does have what appears to be air inlets; there are normally covered up in the photos but in a few they are open.

    So it's either a scramjet or its a rocket engine that gets its oxidizer from the atmosphere.

    Having a rocket booster combined with a scramjet would hardly be unprecedented. After all the Moskit ASM is a rocket booster combined with a ramjet.

    Viewing the CG video of Putin's presentation one can see that the first part of its trajectory looks ballistic; or rather something similar to the Kh-15/Kh-22/Kh-32. But the 2nd past of it shows the Kinzhal going down towards sea-skiming altitude and conducting all sorts of manuevers; for which it will need to slow down quite a lot - and that sort of manueverability disqualifies it from being even a quasi-ballistic missile.

    No doubt the missile also has a mode though where it maintains its hypersonic speeds and impacts the target with a more or less ballistic trajectory; because that way it will optimize its range and bleed the least speed - however because it's not a ballistic missile it will still be capable of manuever to avoid ABMs or can even select a different target.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 07, 2018 1:52 am


    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon May 07, 2018 2:55 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care

    Why sell it short by simply calling it an anti-ship missile? The sole footage of it attacking a target, was in fact a ground target, which means it'll likely take on the the Mk. 41 launchers stored in the Aegis Ashore Euro Meat Shield. The fact it fly's at Mach 10 speed, and that it is the evolutionary path of the maneuverable hypersonic Iskander-M, and if fitted with a large thermonuclear warhead, it would fit comfortably in the regime of a ABM system, it is fitted on the MiG-31 after all.
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    GarryB

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 07, 2018 4:51 am

    Is it possible to add terminal sea skimming to the kinzhal. Even with speed and maneuverability, US SAMs like the SM-3/6 are specifically made for destroying high flying hypersonic missiles or satellites.

    Sea skimming wont make it safe, but would dramatically reduce both speed and flight range.

    vIf the kinzhal has a solid fuel engine and has the same trajectory as the iskander, why isnt it ballistic?

    You think Iskander is ballistic?

    Kinzhal does not have a scramjet engine. Scramjet needs a lot of air inlets. Kinzhal is not here.

    Inlets can be retracted or have fairings over them.



    Note the almost flat tipped nose cover that is ejected as the main rocket is ignited?

    The nose on the Kinzhal is pointy because the MiG-31 has to be able to fly fast with it underneath it... otherwise it would have a round nose like the Yakhont/Onyx...

    ie:



    Where are the air intakes on the large missile to the right of the Su-33 in the photo above...?

    After all the Moskit ASM is a rocket booster combined with a ramjet.

    SA-6 SAM, Kh-31, Granit, Onyx, Yakhont, Kh-41, SS-N-22 Sunburn... are all combined rocket ramjet designs.

    To achieve mach 10 and 2,000km range even when launched from a high and fast MiG-31 requires scramjet propulsion.

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    Hole

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Mon May 07, 2018 12:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care

    Best comment of the week. thumbsup
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 07, 2018 3:16 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care

    Why sell it short by simply calling it an anti-ship missile? ......


    I ain't selling it short.

    Hitting moving target like a ship is harder than hitting stationary target on land. So if it can handle a ship it can handle everything else by default.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon May 07, 2018 5:49 pm

    Did anyone else notice in the footage provided of it hitting a land target that it seemed to be flying at qutite a low speed?

    So slow infact that you could see it moving. If it was hypersonic all you would see is a faint blur.

    Ofcourse that might just be footage of some other missile used intead to avoid giving away classified information.
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    Hole

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Hole on Mon May 07, 2018 10:16 pm

    ever heard of slow motion? High speed cameras?
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon May 07, 2018 11:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care

    Why sell it short by simply calling it an anti-ship missile? ......


    I ain't selling it short.

    Hitting moving target like a ship is harder than hitting stationary target on land. So if it can handle a ship it can handle everything else by default.

    What are you talking about? For the longest people doubted (not me of course) that Onyx could be used against ground targets, similarly people doubted (not me) that the MiG-31 could be used with guided munitions against ground targets, and labeling it as an AshM usually saw people limit such munitions to that role. Its more accurate to call it simply a strategic system. It's Mach 10 speed, it's 2000 km range, and its large warhead means that it can be utilized as an Anti-Ballistic Missile; just fit it with a large thermonuclear warhead and your set to go.
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    Isos

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    Re: "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    Post  Isos on Mon May 07, 2018 11:33 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    It's a Mach 10 anti-ship missile with 2000km range

    With those numbers it can work on reindeer farts for all I care

    Why sell it short by simply calling it an anti-ship missile? ......


    I ain't selling it short.

    Hitting moving target like a ship is harder than hitting stationary target on land. So if it can handle a ship it can handle everything else by default.

    I disagree. The ship is the only target on the water so the radar or optics will see it easily.

    Attacking land targets is more complicated because you need to found the target in a unfriendly environment for your detector.

    The air defences against ballistic missiles are the same on sea or on the ground. It would be more complicated to go through them for a classical anti ship missile because it won't have the terrain to mask its flight.

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