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    Russian defence against drone swarms

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:drone should be relatively straight forward... whether the drone uses its radar closer to the enemy or perhaps inside enemy territory, or the Su-57 scans for targets and the much closer but radar silent drone listens to the radar return... assuming they are synchronised then the drone being closer to the target should receive a better signal return because the signal has not travelled as far and it would also detect signals not heading directly back to the source of the radar signalling so radar waves deflected away from the Su-57 that is scanning might be detected by several drones operating with the aircraft.

    The US Air Force is now trying to use Swarm Drones to overwhelm enemy air defenses. The idea is that a large aircraft - C-130, C-17 or even a fighter aircraft like the F-18 will carry a few hundred drones as close to enemy airspace and then launch these drones.

    Eventually hundreds of these hard to detect drones ( because of small size, stealth) will attack enemy positions on the ground.
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    Post  william.boutros on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:38 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    The US Air Force is now trying to use Swarm Drones to overwhelm enemy air defenses. The idea is that a large aircraft - C-130, C-17 or even a fighter aircraft like the F-18 will carry a few hundred drones as close to enemy airspace and then launch these drones.

    Eventually hundreds of these hard to detect drones (because of small size, stealth) will attack enemy positions on the ground.

    Well these drones will not be difficult to fight. The problem is current air defenses are not optimized to defend themselves against them. I suspect a new or updated point defense complex with a gun and a new radar to protect air defenses and bases.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:18 pm

    jhelb wrote:

    The US Air Force is now trying to use Swarm Drones to overwhelm enemy air defenses. The idea is that a large aircraft - C-130, C-17 or even a fighter aircraft like the F-18 will carry a few hundred drones as close to enemy airspace and then launch these drones.

    Eventually hundreds of these hard to detect drones ( because of small size, stealth) will attack enemy positions on the ground.

    The thing is that such drones are more expensive than cruise missiles because they need to be long range (if not the c-130 or c17 are dead meat before they launch them), stealthy (if not the AIDS will detect them and move its air defence systems) and they need to cooperate btw themselves and use same guidance methodes as cruise missiles ( gps will be jammed). They also need sensors to detect radars or ground targets ...

    So they are just slower cruise missiles but also need to be much smarter than simple cruise missile. If they are too slow they will need hours before coming near their target which by the time would have moved away.

    At the end a su-34 with 6 kh-31 would do a better job.
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    Post  thegopnik on Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:05 am

    https://qr.ae/TWHrkY

    Drone swarms are useless against EW systems like these.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:20 am



    The US Air Force is now trying to use Swarm Drones to overwhelm enemy air defenses. The idea is that a large aircraft - C-130, C-17 or even a fighter aircraft like the F-18 will carry a few hundred drones as close to enemy airspace and then launch these drones.

    They have been talking about this for some time now and I really can't see them doing a better job at making this a reality, than they did with the light cheap unified light stealth fighter to replace all 4th gen fighters with a small light capable strike fighter that everyone will use... one set of spare parts for everyone, it will be cheap because we will make thousands of them... the US alone will use 3,500 of these aircraft and Americas allies will all use them too...

    This is American so it is going to end up being too expensive and so they wont be able to make enough to make a difference let alone be decisive.

    The problem is that cheap and simple is not something they understand... they wont make much of a profit with cheap and simple and so they don't do it very well.

    The huge irony is that Russia and China will likely be brilliant at cheap and simple and their counter systems are going to be a real serious threat to the west... the west has a history of developing stuff but not really developing or introducing defences against such stuff... so their ships are vulnerable to even their own subsonic anti ship missiles like the British boats in the Falklands, ironically you could argue that the pack attack programming of missiles like Granat and Vulkan is actually what they are talking about today for their own use in anti ship missiles.... amazing new tech there guys... welcome to the 1970s...

    Small means fragile, so air burst 57mm cannon shells and 30mm cannon shells would be a good start, plus EMP jammer beams and rounds... perhaps artillery sized shells so they pulse away from the target and don't damage local infrastructure... and of course the blatently obvious... attack the launch platform before these things are released.

    BTW have you noticed the trends in Russian SAMs? Big long range SAMs being replaced by small lighter missiles which still have decent range but replace the old big missiles by a factor of four or more... SA-6 had three missiles on the TEL, SA-11 has four, SA-17 has four as well but the new model replacement has 6 or 12 missiles. The original SA-9 had four missiles ready to fire and the SA-13 has 6, while the SOSNA-R has 12 missiles. The Tunguska originally had four missiles and the standard 2S6M has 8, while Pantsir has 12 and now they are developing special missiles that fit four small missiles to a single tube... the original Tunguska is not used any more but standard 2S6M units could therefore have 4 x 8 = 32 ready to fire missiles each and the Pantsir could have 4 x 12 =48 missiles ready to fire per vehicle... and new models shown can have up to 24 missile tubes per vehicle so 4 x 24 is 96 ready to fire missiles... plus of course guns, and new guns on the way have over 100 57mm rounds on board ready to fire... and that is without any of these swarm drones they keep talking about being fielded. (I missed OSA... with originally 4 missiles open and exposed that was replaced by 6 missiles in boxes ready to fire and of course the TOR system replacement with first 8 missiles ready to fire and now the current model, 16 smaller lighter faster longer ranged more accurate missiles ready to fire..)

    Just look at the expansion of ready to fire missiles from the old systems to the new ones the increase in actual ready to fire missiles has literally exploded, and that doesn't include other weapons that can be used from MANPADS and ATGMs like Kornet that have been designed to have anti drone and anti aircraft capability designed in to them.
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:38 pm

    GarryB wrote: plus EMP jammer beams and rounds... perhaps artillery sized shells so they pulse away from the target and don't damage local infrastructure...

    A couple of questions:

    (1) What are these EMP jammer beams and rounds. By beams I suspect you are referring to a system like Krasukha and Palantin but what are EMP rounds ?

    (2) If you jam, shoot down these drones and they fall in civilian areas they will still cause a lot of damage isn't it because once they fall the warhead they are carrying will explode on the ground.

    (3) What if these swarm drones take advantage of blind spots in air defence and attack the target ? Even in a networked air defence system there will be blind spots.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:47 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote: plus EMP jammer beams and rounds... perhaps artillery sized shells so they pulse away from the target and don't damage local infrastructure...

    A couple of questions:

    (1) What are these EMP jammer beams and rounds. By beams I suspect you are referring to a system like Krasukha and Palantin but what are EMP rounds ?

    (2) If you jam, shoot down these drones and they fall in civilian areas they will still cause a lot of damage isn't it because once they fall the warhead they are carrying will explode on the ground.

    (3) What if these swarm drones take advantage of blind spots in air defence and attack the target ? Even in a networked air defence system there will be blind spots.

    1) it's a "bomb" that create an electromagnetic pulse which destroys transistors. Actually it doesn't destroy them but make them useless. The onboard computer of the drones will stop working and the drone will crash.

    2) most likely they will crash in open fields because the air defnece protects civilian and military infrastructure. The warhead will be very small. No real danger.

    3) blind spot are known by the IADS. That some useless piece of land where there is nothing (like btw two mountains). Nothing to protect there. When they exit the blind spots they will be detected and destroyed.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:55 pm

    In Saudi-Arabia one of these blind spots was the largest oil facility in the country. Laughing
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:14 am

    Swarm drones, as envisaged by such proposals and differently from usual cruise missiles, are supposed to fly to the target and get back, so even taking advantage of blind spots would not suffice, even after reaching their intended target they would still be vulnerable to araction during their return flight.
    Also because from 2006 Lebanon conflict almost it has been found that one of the most efficient method to hamper an air dominance strategy based on the possibility of a large use of precision weapons is to negate them targets to engage with said systems, trough concealment, dispersion and even burrowing  of  the whole structure of an insurgent movement or even a whole non-statal armed force  of the dimensions of Hezbollah, ISIS and. as the latest example, the Houti army in Yemen.
    So sending hundreds of swarm drones just to engage some secondary opportunity objective spotted trough aerial reconnoissance or by special forces could even turn out to be, in the end, counter productive, even in case of a successful engagement if such a thing lead to the destruction of a consistent part of them by a post hit reaction of AD.


    Last edited by marcellogo on Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:42 am

    (1) What are these EMP jammer beams and rounds. By beams I suspect you are referring to a system like Krasukha and Palantin but what are EMP rounds ?

    Using high explosive to generate an EMP pulse... it is only local and I would expect it would not be effective much beyond the fragmentation range of a similar sized munition, but where a fragmentation bomb has individual fragments that spread apart as they travel meaning as distance increases the gaps between the fragments gets bigger and bigger so at a larger distance the chance of getting hit with a fragment is low let alone a hit that would damage the drone. An EMP pulse offers better coverage against smart targets.

    Very simply if the target is a bomb and it just has a fuse then an EMP round might just dud the round, but if it has a mechanical backup fuse it will go boom anyway.

    For a smart drone it needs to be able to fly by itself, it needs to communicate with other drones in the swarm, and it needs to have sensors and to be able to make its own decisions based on criteria... it needs to have some level of intelligence which is what the EMP would destroy.

    (2) If you jam, shoot down these drones and they fall in civilian areas they will still cause a lot of damage isn't it because once they fall the warhead they are carrying will explode on the ground.

    That is possible... one of the most successful Scud attacks during Desert Storm featured a Scud that hit an American Barracks... at the time they were saying 100% kill rate for Patriot of course, but it is certainly possible... in fact likely that this Scud would have been hit several times before impact... perhaps changing its trajectory to hit the barracks that perhaps it might not have otherwise hit.

    Generally modern weapons have proximity and impact fuses, but these are only enabled when you get near the target, so hit them early enough and they become an IED bomb threat on the ground... firing air burst shells is more likely to set them off directly but can cause damaged targets to fall to the ground and do damage... not really much you can do about it.

    Saw quite a few Patriot launches where the missile just arced over and hit the ground... war zones are dangerous.

    (3) What if these swarm drones take advantage of blind spots in air defence and attack the target ? Even in a networked air defence system there will be blind spots.

    There are enormous blind spots in western air defence networks because they are arrogant and think they have cruise missiles and they have drones... but until Russia actually used cruise missiles in Syria they were astounded that Russia has cruise missiles... now that the Houthies have attacked Saudi Arabia they have realised other countries have drones and cruise missiles and they might start adapting their current SAMs to deal with very low flying slow targets.

    These drones will be communicating with each other and avoiding the ground which generally creates communication traffic which will give away their position... not to mention the carrier aircraft will also be noticed too.

    If 500 drones hit a Russian hydro electric power station... they would only do it in time of war and getting 500 drones within range of the target will be a much more costly exercise than launching a tomahawk... if there are these blind spots for swarm drones then there will be blind spots for cruise missiles too...

    In Saudi-Arabia one of these blind spots was the largest oil facility in the country.

    Makes you wonder what their coverage is over the rest of the country... what were they focussing on protecting?

    It clearly wasn't their main source of income.

    The Swarm Drone Strategy is a declaration that stealth wont penetrate current Russian air defences... the Russians on the other hand have gone for very high speed and manouver performance which seems like the best direction to head to and they have a significant lead in that they have a missile design on the verge of service entry and their new ships and upgraded old ships will be able to carry it as standard ammo...

    80 Calibre missiles is a potent war load for an upgraded Kirov class ship, that could be used against 65-75 targets with a weak enemy, or perhaps 20-30 targets of a medium enemy, or 10-15 targets with a peer enemy. 80 Zircon missiles on the other hand would be a struggle for most modern armed forces to deal with... we are talking about 50-60 targets for that weapon load out against a peer enemy...

    And their newer larger ships are only going to carry more.
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:28 am

    nd their newer larger ships are only going to carry more. Back to top Reply with quote wrote:

    Russia is not building larger ships.

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    Post  Arrow on Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:49 pm

    Maybe they will build bigger in 20 years. For now, frigates with a displacement of 4,500 tons are being built very slowly.Russia is far behind the navy and the construction of new ships behind China and the US. You won't be as powerful as you won't dominate the oceans.
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:14 pm

    GarryB wrote: Generally modern weapons have proximity and impact fuses, but these are only enabled when you get near the target, so hit them early enough and they become an IED bomb threat on the ground... firing air burst shells is more likely to set them off directly but can cause damaged targets to fall to the ground and do damage... not really much you can do about it.

    Right. So shooting them down is not an option over a major urban center. So how do you deal with them ?

    Jamming - Doesn't work in the case of autonomous drones with pre fed co-ordinates of terrain control mapping data.

    Sensor Based Interdiction - Disrupting the drone's flight sensors, motion sensors, gyroscopes etc. But this will cause the drone to crash and that will set off the warhead.

    Drones are controlled over wireless links with a typical span of control being over 2 km. This makes it possible for it to be controlled from anywhere within a 13 sq. km area-an area larger than most city suburb. This makes tra­cing a drone operator a practically impossible task

    GarryB wrote:These drones will be communicating with each other and avoiding the ground which generally creates communication traffic which will give away their position...

    Please state what you mean by "avoiding the ground"
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:15 pm

    Maybe they will build bigger in 20 years. For now, frigates with a displacement of 4,500 tons are being built very slowly.Russia is far behind the navy and the construction of new ships behind China and the US. You won't be as powerful as you won't dominate the oceans.

    With 16 Zircon missiles their corvettes are already better armed than any current western ship... quality is more important than quantity...
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:28 pm

    Cirkon has a range of 1000km, so this small frigate to launch a rocket must enter the range of aviation from the aircraft carrier group. Only Mig-31 from Kindzal and Tu-22M3 can operate outside the range of tactical aviation from an aircraft carrier.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:34 pm

    Right. So shooting them down is not an option over a major urban center. So how do you deal with them ?

    Didn't I just say that the US was shooting down Scuds over all sorts of areas including built up areas and failed Patriot missiles were landing all over the place... they fired an average of about 32 Patriots for each Scud, and there is no evidence a single Scud was destroyed in the air by them.

    Major urban areas are not packed wall to wall with humans and these tiny drones wont have very big payloads... they will rely on precision to be effective against point or soft targets... the risk to the general public would be very low.

    Jamming - Doesn't work in the case of autonomous drones with pre fed co-ordinates of terrain control mapping data.

    Jamming does work because it blocks communication with the drone and any corrections it might be sent... if it doesn't recognise the terrain and gets lost it can't dial up the internet or GPS to locate itself.

    Sensor Based Interdiction - Disrupting the drone's flight sensors, motion sensors, gyroscopes etc. But this will cause the drone to crash and that will set off the warhead.

    The chances it will land in an open field or a even a street are pretty good and its warhead, as I have said will be very small because it is a small drone and for it to have any decent range will need much more fuel or battery power than explosive.

    On top of that most munitions are not armed until they approach their target to prevent it from being set off by various systems that activate proximity fuses in munitions, which would result in duds most of the time.

    Drones are controlled over wireless links with a typical span of control being over 2 km. This makes it possible for it to be controlled from anywhere within a 13 sq. km area-an area larger than most city suburb. This makes tra­cing a drone operator a practically impossible task

    Of course because there is no way that a wireless transmitter sending a signal to a drone could ever be traced... except that it is very much like a mobile phone and they can be very accurately traced... very very accurately traced...

    And such guidance can be jammed and the source traced at the same time.

    Please state what you mean by "avoiding the ground"

    When you fly a plane you need to stay in the air by not flying into the ground... flying into the ground is called crashing... manned planes do that all the time.

    Air pressure altimeters tell you your height based on air pressure and are generally given as height above sea level, while radar altimeters use a radar pulse that bounces off the ground below the aircraft or missile to tell what actual height you are above the ground... the latter is passive but wont warn you about high ground or mountains or even trees and power cables... the latter warns you about things below your aircraft that you can fly in to but can be detected.

    Some aircraft like helicopters have small flat antenna that faces down and gives altitude when the aircraft is closer than 200-300m to the ground... otherwise the flight control system reverts to air pressure and altitude above sea level... that means the radar only needs to work over a few hundred metres distance so it doesn't have to be very powerful but it can be detected. Larger aircraft like Tornado strike aircraft and Fencer strike aircraft use terrain avoidance radar... a mode for their nose mounted radar used to detect terrain ahead of the aircraft to avoid crashing... imagine flying along a low flat plain and then a steep cliff face 500m tall... a small flat radar pointing down showing altitude above ground wont see the cliff and you would fly straight in to it with no opportunity to climb... which is why high speed aircraft use nose mounted radar for the job... which can also be detected.

    A properly equipped SA-13 has all sorts of boxes and sensors attached to the turret to detect terrain following radar and altitude sensors for strike aircraft and cruise missiles respectively to warn the operator such things are approaching... a drone would need some way of detecting and avoiding the ground too.... but also knowing what altitude it is at.

    Cirkon has a range of 1000km, so this small frigate to launch a rocket must enter the range of aviation from the aircraft carrier group. Only Mig-31 from Kindzal and Tu-22M3 can operate outside the range of tactical aviation from an aircraft carrier.

    Which carrier based fighter aircraft has a radius of 1,000km?
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pm

    All this discussion started from the idea of swarming drones launched by an AC-130 or similar planes and successively retrieved, so something totally different from the one-way suicide drones like the one used by Houti or even the same Harop used by Israel to try to overcome Syrian air systems.

    The former are at all effects military planes, the latter are another peculiar form of missile, exchanging speed with longer range and even the possibility to stay in the area in order to attack opportunity targets.
    So jamming will work well with the first, less with the second (but good against loitering ammos).
    First ones have the added vulnerability of the possibility to be engaged during the return flight, hitting the intended target in this case is not enough a.t.c.would give up a sign of their own presence.

    US already experimented such a concept during the Cold War: it worked even then and quite well also BUUT the logistical tail added was, to put it simply, absolutely impossible to deal with.
    And they still had conscription then... dunno
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:36 pm

    marcellogo wrote:All this discussion started from the idea of swarming drones launched by an AC-130 or similar planes and successively retrieved, so something totally different from the one-way suicide drones like the one used by Houti or even the same Harop used by  Israel to try to overcome Syrian air systems.

    The former are at all effects military planes, the latter are another peculiar form of missile, exchanging speed with longer range and even the possibility to stay in the area in order to attack opportunity targets.
    So jamming will work well with the first, less with the second (but good against loitering ammos).
    First ones have the added vulnerability of the possibility to be engaged during the return flight, hitting the intended target in this case is not enough a.t.c.would give up a sign of their own presence.

    US already experimented such a concept during the Cold War: it worked even then and quite well also BUUT the logistical tail added was, to put it simply, absolutely impossible to deal with.
    And they still had conscription then... dunno

    It could very well happen that US transport plane releases drone swarms in attack formation only to find out them attacked decoys only and than carrier plane gets destroyed in return.

    What at one moment in time US sees as a great opportunity to destroy Russian air defense asset with swarm drone tactics may only be decoys placed as to lure opponent into thinking

    he is good when he is not into prepared SAM trap. It is difficult to detect targets in depth and when thousands of decoys lights up all controlled by IADS supported who can be certain

    into anything? Your only option is to take risk in a hope you will eventually still sooner than latter (until you loose your planes) figure it out the concept you are up against.

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    Post  thegopnik on Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:25 am

    So......Are Russians willing to export EW systems in the future to Saudi arabia like repellent-1, peregrine falcoln the ram or even microwave weapons that have claimed to have a 10km range on a buk system to help against drone attacks? Or such systems cant be exported because no other nation has shown that much sophistication in EW systems like the Russians have in fear of reverse engineering?

    I wonder how Alabuga EMP detonations would do against swarm attacks.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:06 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe they will build bigger in 20 years. For now, frigates with a displacement of 4,500 tons are being built very slowly.Russia is far behind the navy and the construction of new ships behind China and the US. You won't be as powerful as you won't dominate the oceans.
    With 16 Zircon missiles their corvettes are already better armed than any current western ship... quality is more important than quantity...
    They plan to put Zircons on 855M SSGNs too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasen-class_submarine#Design

    Also the Papanin class OPV can carry Calibr CMs & could be armed with Zircons as well, if need be; if not, their larger icebreakers could.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:38 am

    How hard would it be to develop medium sized drones armed with 40mm grenade launchers equipped with forward firing fragmentation grenades that auto detonate 40m from the muzzle of the gun... it would be the airborne equivalent of a claymore mine that sends a cloud of high speed fragments forward in a fan shape to deal with a range of soft targets over a distance of perhaps 10-20m. Each drone could carry hundreds of grenades and could be bigger and faster than these tiny drones and could fly in their own swarms of hundreds of craft individually hunting Russian airspace for drones to shoot down... it could take high res video of the target and the kill and the location so a ground unit could be sent out to recover the pieces and determine if there is a UXO danger and also determine who was attacking Russian territory.

    It could be very cheap as those grenades would be very cheap to develop as on firing it could ignite a short fuse like in a hand grenade to detonate the round automatically at a fixed distance from the gun muzzle. If you wanted to get smart you could have a rotary counter on each grenade so you could set the time fuse time so you could set it to explode at any distance you like before firing it though you would probably be better off with an induction coil around the muzzle that automatically sets an electronic fuse on firing the weapon. Simply lase the target and a fairly basic ballistics computer could calculate the time of flight of the grenade to the target... minus 5-10 metres and then work out the flight time and pulse that code to the grenade as it leaves the muzzle on its way to the target...


    Obviously electronic fuses would make the ammo more expensive but also more effective... a fixed time fuse that perhaps could be set by turning the grenades nose to set it from 20m to say 100m in 20m steps altering a fixed burning fuse arrangement that would be pretty reliable and very cheap... it could be loaded quickly to fend off a ground attack as the design of the grenade would make it safer for defenders as the fragments are blown forward towards the enemy rather than in all directions like standard bombs.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:41 am

    The airborne round could have a smaller propellent charge and use that extra space for more HE and more fragments to make it a more effective short range grenade.

    Note the standard new Russian 40mm grenade has a range of 2.5km and quite a heavy HE payload... rather more powerful than the older 30mm grenade... which was made more effective by having long side surfaces with lots of fragmentation material to make it rather effective for its calibre.

    The efficiency of the Russian 30mm led to China making 35mm grenades and the US developing 20mm and 25mm grenades for their future weapons systems.
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:01 am

    Which carrier based fighter aircraft has a radius of 1,000km? wrote:

    F-18 Super Hornet is near radius of 1000km. Cirkon is still develop.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:How hard would it be to develop medium sized drones armed with 40mm grenade launchers equipped with forward firing fragmentation grenades that auto detonate 40m from the muzzle of the gun... it would be the airborne equivalent of a claymore mine that sends a cloud of high speed fragments forward in a fan shape to deal with a range of soft targets over a distance of perhaps 10-20m. Each drone could carry hundreds of grenades and could be bigger and faster than these tiny drones and could fly in their own swarms of hundreds of craft individually hunting Russian airspace for drones to shoot down... it could take high res video of the target and the kill and the location so a ground unit could be sent out to recover the pieces and determine if there is a UXO danger and also determine who was attacking Russian territory.

    It could be very cheap as those grenades would be very cheap to develop as on firing it could ignite a short fuse like in a hand grenade to detonate the round automatically at a fixed distance from the gun muzzle. If you wanted to get smart you could have a rotary counter on each grenade so you could set the time fuse time so you could set it to explode at any distance you like before firing it though you would probably be better off with an induction coil around the muzzle that automatically sets an electronic fuse on firing the weapon. Simply lase the target and a fairly basic ballistics computer could calculate the time of flight of the grenade to the target... minus 5-10 metres and then work out the flight time and pulse that code to the grenade as it leaves the muzzle on its way to the target...

    The current generation of swarms being envisaged by US/NATO are based on behaviourial models inspired by examples from the natural world. Foremost among these are the ways in which ‘social insects’ such as bees, ants and termites cooperate and orchestrate the division of labor among their respective ‘networks’as encapsulated by the so called ‘stigmergy‘ principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy

    The two essential features required for swarming to work are connectivity and autonomy. Connectivity is required to facilitate the seamless coming together of drones that are distributed in a seemingly amorphous mass at the right moment. Also, with connectivity, drones can ‘aggregate’ and ‘disaggregate’, i.e. they can join or leave the swarm, as if one cure. One could even have a situation where a single drone might detach to get a closer look at a target and then either return or be used to carry out an attack, i.e. ad-hoc detachments for specific tasks from a swarm may be possible.


    The control of drone swarms is done by using a decentralized planning control algorithm handling both stationary and moving obstacles, which owing to its decentralized nature is more resilient than centralized algorithms that have a single point of failure. However, in a decentralized algorithm each entity (drone) has only partial information of the operating environment and the other drones (for example, it can only see a few neighbors). The drones in a swarm therefore need to communicate with each other for information sharing and coordination of actions.

    According to Pentagon Swarms of uninhabited vehicles have several potential advantages:


    1. Dispersal of combat power, which forces the enemy to expend more munitions.

    2. From a focus on individual platform survivability, the system moves towards swarm resiliency. As long as there are a minimum number of drones in terms of mission sufficiency, the swarm as a whole is resilient against attack.

    3. The combat power of the swarm undergoes graceful degradation even as individual platforms are attrited, as opposed to a sharp loss in combat power if a single, more exquisite platform is lost.

    4. Dynamic self-healing networks – Swarming behavior allows drones to act in a dynamic self-healing network. In-built redundancy and resilience caters for the loss of a number of drones and yet allows the operator to maintain surveillance coverage over an area, even as continuous self-healing communications and adaptive networks take on new tasks.

    5. Swarms can saturate enemy defenses. However advanced contemporary air defence systems may be, they cannot handle so many threats at a time. Swarms can overwhelm enemy defenses, with ‘leakers’ getting through to neutralize the target.

    6. Swarms can perform distributed sensing and attack by dispersing assets over a wide area. A swarm can conduct distributed focused electronic attack, syncing up its electromagnetic signals to provide focused point jamming.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47555588
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:25 pm

    F-18 Super Hornet is near radius of 1000km. Cirkon is still develop.

    Which can't currently operate from their newest carrier whose cats don't work... but by all means tell me how F-18s will be able to fly out to 1,000km in time to sink a ship before it can launch mach nine anti ship missiles?

    By the time the Hornet is airborne it will be using its radar to search for ships and air targets so it will be easy to track... move a corvette in from the other side of the carrier group and launch half a dozen Zircons... by the time they are detected they will be about 500km from the carrier but moving towards that carrier at 3km per second and probably at about 40km altitude... you can redirect you Hornets to intercept but they will never make it to the missiles before they hit their carrier and the Corvette will hardly be chased down because a minimum of two or three US ships are about to be obliterated... even if they find and sink that single corvette so what... a corvette sunk in return for a super carrier and probably 4 or 5 other AEGIS cruisers... that sounds like a very raw deal for the worlds last super power...

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