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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:20 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    One thing is for sure; the navy cannot in the foreseeable future even hope to match its adversaries pound for pound.
    They know it & don't even try to do that! Being #2 is a step below #1.
    As Suvorov said: not with #s, but with ability!

    #3

    China is 2.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:11 pm

    I know, but Putin wants it to be #2. But it's all relative & may not be that relevant. The US has the NATO Naval Standing Force Group 2 at its disposal around Europe,etc. to step in while most the USN is engaged elsewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_NATO_Maritime_Group_2

    In the Asia-Pacific, the RCN, JMSDF, RAN, ROCN, & IN can assist the USN 7th fleet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Navy#Fleet


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:43 am

    The tone of the article is not realistic. Is totally out of touch.

    Russia has a competent Navy that solved the operation in Syria without problems.

    Russia is completing the reduction of its combat fleet after the end of the Soviet Union, reaching a fleet of stable size.

    Russia is completing a new generation of solid modern designs for every type of warship and auxiliary ship.

    Russia is building ships at the necessary rythm today and is preparing to increase the rythm of commissions by the 2030s, that is when will be needed.

    Modernization and upgrades of the current ships are positive and necessary. Russia has new weapons that must be integrated in the ships, better sooner than later.

    And even Russia begins to modernize older designs in order to finish the units in production not completed after the end of the Soviet Union.

    Finally, Russia continues the reduction of its auxiliary fleet, scrapping the exhausted auxiliary ships, that in a good part require not replacement.

    Russia is doing right.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:54 pm

    Russian navy had no problems in Syria.....? they had tons of them, ask their carrier how that went.

    Having designs on paper means nothing only when the ships are built does it become something.

    Their Modernizations half the time do not solve any problems and merely put the already outdated gear back on ships.

    They modernize stuff so dam slow.

    This is why no one takes you seriously all those statements are so out of touch with reality it baffling.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:16 pm

    Pro-US readers love to read about collapse and lots of drama, but this is not realistic. Sincerely I think you have enough taking care of your own credit.

    In every deployment are some problems, are accidents, are things broken and repairs, but Russia solved all it fairly well, until to achieve significant victories.

    The alone categories of combat and auxiliary ships where Russia has not ships of modern projects totally completed are:

    - Warship <500 tons: Project 12300
    - SSAN: Project 09851
    - Auxiliary Cable-Laying: Project 15310
    - Warship >10000 tons: Project 23560
    - Warship aircraft carrier: Project 23000

    In the 3 first cases the first unit has been laid down time ago and are likely near the launch.
    In the case of the Project 23560 the preliminary project was approved by April 2017. Since then the phase of technical project, that includes the construction of the first unit, is ongoing, and very likely the lay down of the first unit will be soon.
    In the case of the Project 23000 (and some potential unknown alternative) the preliminary project will be in the hands of the Ministry of Defense for examination by the end of 2018. Next steps are approval of the selected option, and begin of the technical project with the construction of the first unit.

    At this point Russia even has ships completed of some modern projects that are redundant.

    Russia is building and modernizing ships at the rythm they want. Slow rythms of production and modernization mean low number of workers assigned per ship and this is not bad by itself. We know most of the Russian shipyards come from the time of the WWII, and are giant, to attend needs of war time. We know that it allows to Russia to mantain big number of ships under construction and modernization and we know that the Russian shipyards are working in peace time very far of their full capability, but neither it is bad by itself. Instead, Russia takes advantage of it.

    If I would have to make some improvement in the refered to the rythms of production and modernization, I would accelerate the production of the first unit of the new aircraft carrier. The projects which first unit is not completed by the end of 2025 likely will fall to the next geneartion of armament.

    The allegued chaos and drama in the situation of the Russian Navy and the Russian shipyards is more noise than other thing. In every factory there are problems every day, the problems with Ukraine forced to introduce changes and to modify timelines, in some cases delaying and in other cases accelerating, but the rythm of deliveries is basically the rythm needed by the Russian Navy, not lower.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:46 pm

    С понтом под зонтом, а сам под дождем- s pontom pod zontom, a sam pod dozdem! It's an expression of distrust in what has been said. They r modernizing many ships & subs that otherwise would be scrapped, had they been able to build new 1s on schedule & on budget!
    In contrast, since 1991, despite all the ongoing local wars & deployments, the USN deactivated a CVN, decommissioned 9 CGNs, 5 CGs, 27 SSNs & dozens of many other ships:  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CVN-65)#Decommissioning
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_powered_cruisers_of_the_United_States_Navy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser#Ships_in_class
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Los_Angeles-class_submarines#Summary_by_status
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidd-class_destroyer#Ships_in_class
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruance-class_destroyer#Decommissioning
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_frigates_of_the_United_States_Navy#Knox-class_FF
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_frigates_of_the_United_States_Navy#Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_FFG
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarawa-class_amphibious_assault_ship#Decommissioning_and_replacement
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship#Ships

    Excluding SSBNs, all of the above could form a fleet larger than the corresponding classes in the active VMF!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:37 pm

    Early scrapping only makes sense for reduction of the fleet. Otherwise is a bad business in economical sense.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:34 am

    In the US, they build a lot of expensive high tech ships & subs that get decommissioned early not just to reduce the fleet, but mostly to make room for more expensive new ships & subs, incl. new classes, wasting a lot of $. Still, they can afford to do it!
    In Russia, they build fewer & less advanced ships & subs, of more classes, wasting $ & time, & having to convert/modernize them to keep them active longer as there isn't much to replace them with.
    Even though Russia doesn't need as many ships & subs as the USN has, her fleets r widely separated & need to be self-sustaining w/o having to depend so much on transfers between themselves.
    Plus, her icebreaker fleet must be maintained, operated & renewed, not to mention the Coast Guard. It's an uphill battle!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:11 pm

    Russia needs not to repeat every wrong thing done by the US.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:20 am

    Much has been said about the inefficiency of the Federation's shipyards, however this is something that's not going to be fixed overnight. I have a proposition in the meantime; why not create a tug-munition system? By that I mean create a system of self-contained munitions built on floating barges, that can be tugged behind existing ships to improve their firepower. A relatively simple yet effective quick solution, you could have set of floating barges with a multitude of different systems, like a barge with several dozen UKSK launchers, or another floating barge with several dozen Polymut-Redut launchers as well as ECM and decoys. Those munitions could be guided with existing sensors on the boat tugging them, or another floating barge could contain radars, electronic-optical sensors, command posts, etc. This in theory should only take a small fraction of the time to produce compared to the ships, and they should be easily fully modular, easily upgradeable.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:39 am


    I have better idea: how about they just swallow their unearned pride and order several dozen frigates from Chinese? They just need blank ships with hulls and engines,they can install local weapons and sensors themselves.





    eehnie wrote:Russia needs not to repeat every wrong thing done by the US.

    Correct, starting with wasting money on carriers (yesterday's war)
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I have better idea: how about they just swallow their unearned pride and order several dozen frigates from Chinese? They just need blank ships with hulls and engines,they can install local weapons and sensors themselves.





    eehnie wrote:Russia needs not to repeat every wrong thing done by the US.

    Correct, starting with wasting money on carriers (yesterday's war)

    The barge-munition system is basically like what we seen with the containerized version of Klub, etc., except taken to another level. Nothing overly complex, high modularity, should be very quick to produce and implement, should theoretically add immense capability to existing ships. Besides:

    On the new border patrol ship "Impeccable" Chinese diesel broke
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:09 am

    Chinese diesel may break but at least it exists unlike Russian one

    Buy couple of spare engines and you are in the clear











    Last edited by PapaDragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:18 am

    why not create a tug-munition system?
    My mind went straight to

    dunno  Laughing

    Barges as UKSK launchers along the inland waterways makes sense, less so with US pulling out of INF.
    A self propelled Arsenal ship to provide extra VLS for a taskforce makes sense.
    But not a barge towed in the ocean by a combat ship.

    Its mainly not the actual shipbuilding thats the issue though, its systems & equipment. Barges/arsenal ships won't solve that.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:20 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:19 am

    Russia needs not to repeat every wrong thing done by the US.
    As applied to their circumstances, the US didn't make as many costly mistakes as Russia; the latter needs to learn from her own mistakes & not repeat them.  
    A towed barge will slow the ship down & reduce it's maneuverability, increase fuel consumption & strain its engines. Bad idea!
    Barges as UKSK launchers along the inland waterways makes sense, less so with US pulling out of INF.
    I doubt the US will put many new missiles in Europe, they have enough on naval platforms & planes already. It's being done to scare Russia into more spending on her defense & deploy missiles in Japan & the ME against China, NK & Iran: https://iz.ru/810595/2018-11-10/ssha-prokommentirovali-plany-po-razmeshcheniiu-raket-v-evrope

    I mentioned buying ships in the PRC a while back. Now, they may want to order floating docks as well.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 pm

    Russia does not need Americas navy... the cost of operating even just two US carrier groups would bankrupt the entire Russian military budget for no practical gain at all.

    Right now the Russian Navy does its job... lots of changes are being made, but the pace is not blinding because there is no need.

    As applied to their circumstances, the US didn't make as many costly mistakes as Russia;

    Are you kidding... the Zumwalt and F-35 combined have probably cost more money that would be needed to end world hunger and much of the worlds poverty...

    Comanche, the various attempts to replace the M16, and the Paladin SPA... there are so many dead ends and screwups...

    A towed barge will slow the ship down & reduce it's maneuverability, increase fuel consumption & strain its engines. Bad idea!

    That is why you use a tug boat to move them and most of the time you keep them tied up on the side of the river...

    But with the US pulling out of the INF treaty then why not put them in trucks for better mobility?

    What they need to do in that regard is develop a low accuracy 3,500km range two stage missile with just an enormous warhead... 10-100MTs and just build hundreds of them and publicly state that they will be pointed at any US bases in Europe and the capital cities and major cities of any country US bases are located... including every country in europe.

    Also put them in the Russian far east pointed at Japanese and South Korea population centres with the same deal...

    Chinese diesel may break but at least it exists unlike Russian one

    Buy couple of spare engines and you are in the clear

    Of course.... give the Chinese lots of money to perfect their diesel engine industry... why waste money developing Russian capability in that area... I mean how many possible applications could there be for a modern efficient diesel engine... duh.

    I mentioned buying ships in the PRC a while back. Now, they may want to order floating docks as well.

    Floating docks are different... why not have them made in the PRC... the ones they have were made in Sweden and Finland anyway...


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