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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:36 pm

    LMFS wrote:@marat, SeigSoloyvov:

    This is exactly what was said:
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    This makes full sense if you actually care reading. AShM onboard an AB are Harpoons unless I am very wrong. Buyans carry 3M-54T. As far as I know the first has way shorter range and is subsonic during all the flight, while the longer ranged Kalibr almost reaches 3 M in terminal approach and is logically way more difficult to intercept. ABs are meant as defensive vessels for a carrier group, with very strong AD capabilities, but as anti-ship a single Buyan could be more dangerous. This is an asymmetric way of deterrence against a much stronger USN, not a way to dominate the seas, but the threat it represents is completely credible.

    True but.....

    AB will find Buyan before Buyan could find him.

    Buyan have no choppers and have lower radar position. So AB will see first. shoot first, and kill first. His AGM 84 are good enough for Buyan and its weak AD.

    Also his choppers could attack Buyan as well far before Buyan find AB and they could use AGM 119 from 30+km.
    Same goes with Karakut.

    Missiles are not only asset that we have to consider when discuss firepower.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:43 pm

    You all don't compare AB with Buyan which designed for extremely different purpose in mind.

    Buyan wont go fight over open ocean like AB Does and AB won't get into Moscow canals.

    Most likely when it needs to fight Buyan will be near Russia protected by other assets and do its job from there. In open seas she'll be just as good as dead and even high wave can kill her.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:47 pm

    LMFS wrote:@marat, SeigSoloyvov:

    This is exactly what was said:
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    This makes full sense if you actually care reading. AShM onboard an AB are Harpoons unless I am very wrong. Buyans carry 3M-54T. As far as I know the first has way shorter range and is subsonic during all the flight, while the longer ranged Kalibr almost reaches 3 M in terminal approach and is logically way more difficult to intercept. ABs are meant as defensive vessels for a carrier group, with very strong AD capabilities, but as anti-ship a single Buyan could be more dangerous. This is an asymmetric way of deterrence against a much stronger USN, not a way to dominate the seas, but the threat it represents is completely credible.


    Okay

    Number 1 to overwhelm a single Burke defense is going tot ake way more missiles then a single Buyan-M carries. This myth that the Buyan can destroy burkes only exists in this forum got ell any serious naval expert and they will laugh hard if you tell them a Buyan-M alone can sink a Burke.

    Buyan-M loses to AB any day of the week, it's simply not possible for that ship to win 1v1 nor was it ever designed to fight Burkes, the burke shave many more capabilities than the Buyan's have

    The burke can carry many more harpoons then a Buyan can Kalibers, it can bring many more missiles to bear than a Buyan-M can this isn't a comparable match up and is frankly unfair to the Buyan-M

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:54 pm

    Bigger anti-ship firepower.
    Its true: 8* (flight 1) or 0* Harpoons (flight 2 & 3) vs 8* Sizzler supersonic or longer-range sub-sonic Kalibr = Buyan-M has more anti-ship firepower.

    Obviously not anything like the overall abilities & nobody said 'able to singlehandedly beat a Burke' but in that particular metric yes more firepower.  
    ...At least until they start mounting VLS LRASM in Burkes.


    I see 3 basic interpretations of the Buyan-M/22800:
    They can be considered an example of the US Streetfighter concept of small cheap ships with distributed lethality, closer to the original idea in several respects than the LCS.

    But in the Russian tradition/strategic position they can be seen as primarily defensive missile boats 'mosquito fleet' which has its ancestry in the post-Tsushima era where Imperial Russia adopted the ideas of the French Jeune Ecole school, producing a bunch of torpedo boats & the first 'modern' Destroyers.
    Again in the early Soviet era they turned initially to small Destroyers/Gunboats.
    Then in the later Soviet period we have large numbers of Tarantul & Nanuchka missile boats.

    The other interpretation is being evolved from the Buyan which was designed primarily for shore bombardment with 100mm gun & Grad rockets the long range Kalibr strike from Caspian may have been the primary goal of the enlarged -M version.
    (I picture some young newbie presenting his brainstorm getting chewed out harshly before the value of the concept sunk in unshaven)
    22800 then takes that same concept but mixes in more missile boat, puts it on a more seaworthy hull & adds both Onyx and Pantsir-M -> back to the Streetfighter style.


    Individually yes for launching land attack strikes 8 missiles is not all that powerful against a defended opponent but is proven useful for surgical strikes against a weaker opponent.
    The squadrons of 6 that they are being built in gives a pretty healthy 48 missile throw at quite low cost & requiring 6 separate hits to neutralise.
    Currently with 3* Buyan-M, 3* Grigorovich & 6* Kilo the BSF has a theoretical 84 missile salvo (with up to 72 more reloads in the Kilos).
    With the plan for 6* Buyan-M, 6* Grigorovich, 6* Kilo & 6* 22160 (2*4 containerised Kalibr) the throw would be 180 missiles.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:09 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    LMFS wrote:@marat, SeigSoloyvov:

    This is exactly what was said:
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    This makes full sense if you actually care reading. AShM onboard an AB are Harpoons unless I am very wrong. Buyans carry 3M-54T. As far as I know the first has way shorter range and is subsonic during all the flight, while the longer ranged Kalibr almost reaches 3 M in terminal approach and is logically way more difficult to intercept. ABs are meant as defensive vessels for a carrier group, with very strong AD capabilities, but as anti-ship a single Buyan could be more dangerous. This is an asymmetric way of deterrence against a much stronger USN, not a way to dominate the seas, but the threat it represents is completely credible.


    Okay

    Number 1 to overwhelm a single Burke defense is going tot ake way more missiles then a single Buyan-M carries. This myth that the Buyan can destroy burkes only exists in this forum got ell any serious naval expert and they will laugh hard if you tell them a Buyan-M alone can sink a Burke.

    Buyan-M loses to AB any day of the week, it's simply not possible for that ship to win 1v1 nor was it ever designed to fight Burkes, the burke shave many more capabilities than the Buyan's have

    The burke can carry many more harpoons then a Buyan can Kalibers, it can bring many more missiles to bear than a Buyan-M can this isn't a comparable match up and is frankly unfair to the Buyan-M

    The most likely scenario is that a bigger ship like a gorshkov face the AB and they send a Buyan to a help it covered by the gorshkov AD. Then the 8 missiles change everything since the AB will face 16+8 antiship missiles. And since there are two ships they can attack from different positions specialy if the helicopter of the AB is destroyed.

    Gorshkov and buyan are far stealthier than AB. They can also go withtheir guns to destroy it. One from the left one from the right.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:28 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:You all don't compare AB with Buyan which designed for extremely different purpose in mind.

    Buyan wont go fight over  open ocean like AB Does and AB won't get into Moscow canals.

    Most likely when it needs to fight Buyan will be near Russia protected by other assets and do its job from there. In open seas she'll be just as good as dead and even high wave can kill her.  

    This guy gets it ^^^

    Where the hell is this Buyan/Burk comparison coming from? One is small littoral/river ship other is large ocean rated vessel.

    Do you want to compare Vespa with Hilux next?
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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:44 pm

    @marat, SeigSoloyvov:

    Nobody is saying corvette wins 1 on 1 vs AB for god's sake. Just wanted to point out that original argument was factually correct.



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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:03 pm

    Buyan is a artillery ship.
    Buyan-M is the small missile ship.

    Better comparison would be Karakurt.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  medo on Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:18 pm

    Buyan-M and Karakurt have UKSK launchers, from which they could not launch only Calibr class missiles, but Onyx missiles as well. For anti-ship role, they will take Onyx missiles with 600 km range and 2,5 mach speed, which is far longer and faster than any Harpoon missile, which in the longest range version have range of 310 km and speed of 0,7 Mach.

    Buyan-M armed with Onyx missiles is actually very dangerous for Burkes, specially when Burkes have to come closer to shore to launch cruise missiles. In that case Buyan-M could hide in river delta and launch long range Onyx missiles on Burkes from safe distance. And add to them Bastion coast complexes armed with Onyx missiles as well and they could easily close closed seas like Black Sea and keep US ships far away from their coasts and with that negate their cruise missiles attacks.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:45 pm

    medo wrote:

    Buyan-M armed with Onyx missiles is actually very dangerous for Burkes, specially when Burkes have to come closer to shore to launch cruise missiles. In that case Buyan-M could hide in river delta and launch long range Onyx missiles on Burkes from safe distance. And add to them Bastion coast complexes armed with Onyx missiles as well and they could easily close closed seas like Black Sea and keep US ships far away from their coasts and with that negate their cruise missiles attacks.

    Mind please that here are also supersonic Kalibrs ,after wiki:

    3M54K An anti-ship variant deployed by the Russian Navy, as a submarine launched missile, Its basic length is 8.22 m (27.0 ft), with a 200 kg (440 lb) warhead. Its range is 440–660 km (270–410 mi). It is a Sea-skimmer with supersonic terminal speed and a flight altitude of 4.6 metres (15 ft) at its final stage; its speed is then Mach 2.9.
    4,5 meters and 2,9 Ma not bad either.

    As for tomahawk attacks - thy dont have to come so close - Tomahaw's range is ~2500kms
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:53 pm

    marat wrote:
    Same goes with Karakut.


    with positiv radar i has now range of 300kms to see AB. With 40km range Pantsit missiles any chopper unlikely reaches her.

    Missiles are not only asset that we have to consider when discuss firepower.

    true that's why in realistic scenarios it is unlikely to happen. Where one 22800 would fight against one AB?!

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:26 pm

    Where the hell is this Buyan/Burk comparison coming from?
    The question was 'whats the reasoning behind the UKSK equipped small ships'.
    Someone mentioned the anti-ship firepower being better than a Burke -> all sorts of other nonsense.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:32 pm

    current versions of Tomahawk can´t hit sea targets.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:19 pm

    Exercices of russian navy in mediteranean sea.

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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:20 pm

    Hole wrote:current versions of Tomahawk can´t hit sea targets.

    Neither it can hit ground targets when pantsirs are there lol1
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    MarshallJukov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  MarshallJukov on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:28 pm

    marat wrote:I do not see any advantage of Buyan and Karakut over one Tu-95. TU 95 needs no rivers, it had bigger range, could carry same number of CM etc etc.
    Generally rivers are no advantage at all, in case of war CM would be placed on truck TEL vehicles.

    Apples and oranges. And BTW, Tu-95 carries no long range ASMs



    marat wrote:And saying that Buyan have bigger firepower then AB is just....  Rolling Eyes
    no comment

    Remind me please, how many supersonic/hypersonic ASMs does ABs carry?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:48 pm

    Do "Karakurts" need Chinese diesel engines? https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2477283.html

    Russian Marines landed in Syria
    https://www.archyworldys.com/russian-marines-landed-in-syria/

    They were supported by NAF incl. SU-33s & VKS.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/09/08/pentagon-white-house-consider-military-strike-options-on-syria/

    Assad, Rouhani & Putin won't tolerate Americans in Syria & will soon try to evict them by making their life miserable.

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:23 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Same goes with Karakut.


    with positiv radar i has now range of 300kms to see AB. With 40km range Pantsit missiles any chopper unlikely reaches her.

    Missiles are not only asset that we have to consider when discuss firepower.

    true that's why in realistic scenarios it is unlikely to happen.  Where one 22800 would fight against one AB?!

    He cannot find AB from more then 40 km, no matter what is stated in promo material. Radar is low so his horizont is not 300 km.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:32 pm

    marat wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Same goes with Karakut.


    with positiv radar i has now range of 300kms to see AB. With 40km range Pantsit missiles any chopper unlikely reaches her.

    Missiles are not only asset that we have to consider when discuss firepower.

    true that's why in realistic scenarios it is unlikely to happen.  Where one 22800 would fight against one AB?!

    He cannot find AB from more then 40 km, no matter what is stated in promo material. Radar is low so his horizont is not 300 km.

    There is super refraction and passive radar mode that has a much longer range than active radar mode. AB radars are not 1 km altitude to see that much farther, they may see 1km more than buyan, not more.

    Buyan-M is a small boat with very good shapes that reduce its rcs.

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:39 pm

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    marat wrote:I do not see any advantage of Buyan and Karakut over one Tu-95. TU 95 needs no rivers, it had bigger range, could carry same number of CM etc etc.
    Generally rivers are no advantage at all, in case of war CM would be placed on truck TEL vehicles.

    Apples and oranges. And BTW, Tu-95 carries no long range ASMs



    marat wrote:And saying that Buyan have bigger firepower then AB is just....  Rolling Eyes
    no comment

    Remind me please, how many supersonic/hypersonic ASMs does ABs carry?

    So supersonic/hypersonic ASMs is all that matter? Since when?

    AB have more then one asset that could be used agains ship.

    His standard SAM could be used in AS mode, they are supersonic and he can bring dozens of them. And practically he could fire them on longer range then Buyan could fire its ASM as Buyan would be blind in comparation with AB.

    Also they have Harpoon, they are not supersonic but they are more then good enough for Buyan. And he have helicopters as well, so claiming that Buyan have bigger AS potential is just non sense.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:43 pm

    marat wrote:

    He cannot find AB from more then 40 km, no matter what is stated in promo material. Radar is low so his horizont is not 300 km.

    and how AB could find it? its I see you you see mey scenario. Unless you talk about OTH right?


    for plain radar horizon form ship height of 50m to shipof 20 meters you havs 47kms horizon...


    http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:43 pm

    Isos wrote: AB radars are not 1 km altitude to see that much farther, they may see 1km more than buyan, not more.

    Buyan-M is a small boat with very good shapes that reduce its rcs.

    It would be probably a bit more then 1 km but that is not what matter.

    What matter is>


    AB have helicopter with radar that could find ship on distance up to 250 from helicopter and that chopper could be sent far in front of AB. So AB have asset to find Buyan on several hundred km ahead.

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:46 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    marat wrote:

    He cannot find AB from more then 40 km, no matter what is stated in promo material. Radar is low so his horizont is not 300 km.

    and how AB could find it? its I see you you see mey scenario. Unless you talk about OTH right?


    for plain radar horizon form ship height of 50m to shipof 20 meters you havs 47kms  horizon...


    http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm
    I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

    PS> Thank you for link with radar horizont calculator. Very Happy


    Last edited by marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:51 pm

    marat wrote:
    I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

    OK I didnt see this post before posting mine relax Smile

    to me ABs go in packs as 22800 do.  Both have support in C4I . If small ship doesn't have to see AB but ut onlu come to position thne shoot and has  2x range missiles then we got the winer i guess.

    But as I mentioned there is nonsense to count of ship to ship action. No realistic scenario.



    @marat you're welcome. It always helps with discussion about AWACS or optical reconnaissance: lol1 lol1 drones

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:02 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    marat wrote:
    I mentioned more then once that AB have that little toys  called HELICOPTERS, equipped with RADARS, Radars with range up to 250 Km. Helicopter could climb on several KM so their horizont is big enough to actually use potential range of their radars and they can fly hundred of Km from ships.

    OK I didnt see this post before posting mine relax Smile Anyway there is no real scenario one 22800 fighting against one AB. ABsgo in packs as 22800. First 22800 are going to use SAT/AWACS/Tu-142 data to coordinate attacks not just shoot at will. If small ship doesnt have to see AB but has 2x range missiles then we got the winer i guess.

    But as I mentioned there is nonsense to count of ship to ship action. No realistic scenario.



    Sorry Smile

    That is true, one-to-one scenario is not realistic, I didn't denied that.

    If we introduce whole system then yes, IF Buyan or Karakut would get information about AB position early enough, then they could shot first and run away, and their missiles are very dangerous. But you know, is isn't really realistic that single AB would co close to Russian coast alone Smile

    Actually I find Karakut and Buyan useful as small FAC armed with ASM, but I do not find them very useful for Surface-ground Cruise Missile attack
    I just do not find any advantage they have in that mode compared with TU-95 as I mentioned before.

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