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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:30 am

    So not only does it introduce a layer of defence against low flying subsonic cruise missiles... it greatly extends the flight time of the missiles because they will have to fly low... which uses up more fuel and makes them slower...
    Why can't CMs be programmed to fly high & low over water & low over land? Those launched from a ship & the B-1B in the Arabian Gulf won't even fly over the Med. Sea.

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:26 pm

    really nothing? what tghis dude was smokin? I need same stuff for the weekend
    Well the article is largely trash & I don't think its quite what he meant but he is correct: US already launched I think 2/3 of the last strike from the Red Sea & Persian Gulf side -> bypassing the Russian fleet/bases & it would be very surprising if they wouldn't do the same again.

    I'll be curious to see if Russia starts the Jihadistan op with a massed Kalibr strike (theoretically can make a 60 missile salvo, possible extra 24 on the subs) or they'll all be fully loaded with Onyx/Sizzler for deterrence.

    Maybe a mix but that would reduce the impact of both.

    What would be really interesting is if Ustinov turns out to have actually got the angled tube Kalibr/Onyx in the upgrade after all.
    That'd be an extra unexpected 48/64 missiles.

    william.boutros

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  william.boutros on Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:29 pm

    These small land attack Caliber equipped boats are bit puzzling. Generally cruise missiles are launched in mass at the start of a war on risky targets or to augment air power. They may also be used for precision strikes against high value highly defended targets. You would need a large number of such missiles in the hundreds as was the case in desert storm.
    A dozen Buyan Class need to be gathered to equate 1 Arleigh-Bruke class in strike power. These ships are designed for shore defense under land AA and radar coverage against ships, land attack is a distant last in capability.


    Last edited by william.boutros on Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Nibiru on Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:22 pm

    william.boutros wrote:These small land attack Caliber equipped boats are bit puzzling. Generally cruise missiles are launched in mass at the start of a war on risky target or to augment air power. They may also be used for precision strikes against high value highly defended targets. In the first occasion you would need a large number of such missiles in the hundreds as was the case in desert storm.

    Perhaps these small boat CM platforms were designed with minor scale conflicts in mind like that in Syria, a larger war with Nato however would definitely require a bigger vessel to house more CMs to saturate most Nato targets.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:55 pm

    More platforms means more flexibility. You can launch a massive salvo from different locations. In case of Russia from the Caspain Sea, Black Sea, Med, Baltics.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  LMFS on Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:20 pm

    ... and even from many kilometres of rivers in Russia, so they would be almost impossible to track and counter. US wanted to implement something like this with their "distributed lethality" concept, Russia has already done it. With these missiles, a single corvette can realistically threaten a carrier group or attack enemy bases at sub-strategic level, that has lots of military value IMHO.

    In Syria they make sense both to attack high value jihadist targets and as deterrence against the coalition. US military planers have to consider the presence in theater of such assets and mitigate the risk exposure to them, so they tend to get more reasonable.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:34 pm

    Russia to hold ‘large-scale’ drills in Mediterranean
    http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-to-hold-large-scale-drills-in-mediterranean/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=f848721a60-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_31_12_20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-f848721a60-31607385

    The TU-160s will probably do some carpet bombing to support the advance on Idlib.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:03 am

    Hole wrote:More platforms means more flexibility. You can launch a massive salvo from different locations. In case of Russia from the Caspain Sea, Black Sea, Med, Baltics.

    More likely it allows them to launch surprise precision strike against a high-value target from anywhere at any time. Any UKSK-equipped vessel is capable of long range LACM strikes, and that gives excellent operational flexibility and ability to take advantage of opportunities as the occur.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:59 am

    Russian ships and planes on the exercises in the Mediterranean Sea will hold missile firing

    In the course of maneuvers, the tasks of anti-submarine warfare and anti-aircraft defense will be handled, as well as anti-piracy issues

    lol1  lol1  lol1

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    Nibiru wrote:

    Perhaps these small boat CM platforms were designed with minor scale conflicts in mind like that in Syria, a larger war with Nato however would definitely require a bigger vessel to house more CMs to saturate most Nato targets.

    No this is not the Russian way. Very expensive one. Cheaper one is use Iskanders, Kiznhal or in near future GZURs. By order of magnitude less missiles are required then.






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    GunshipDemocracy wrote:ok Graham second brain damaged after McCain  bounce  bounce  bounce This military sounds reasonable here.
    Incredibly I was feeling compassion for a guy like Carter  lol1  lol1  lol1

    well, Carter might be evil but no psycho to me respekt respekt respekt
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:16 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Russian ships and planes on the exercises in the Mediterranean Sea will hold missile firing


    In the course of maneuvers, the tasks of anti-submarine warfare and anti-aircraft defense will be handled, as well as anti-piracy issues

    lol1  lol1  lol1


    Not that funny.

    Israel almost lost a ship against hezbollah guerilla. In Yemen there were successfull attacks with single missile or even full of bombs motor boats against Saoudi supply vessels.

    It's more usefull to train against pirates in the syrian context than train to attack US navy. Terrorist used drones to attack russian base, they could easily use a drone boat to attack the erussian ships coming in the port.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:01 am



    The new Black Pearl. Laughing
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:27 am

    Isos wrote:
    Not that funny.

    Israel almost lost a ship against hezbollah guerilla. In Yemen there were successfull attacks with single missile or even full of bombs motor boats against Saoudi supply vessels.
    not very good examples to me
    Hezbollah is by no means pirates, they are anti-Israeli resistance
    Houtis are Yemeni guerrillas fighting for independence against US/Saudi occupation


    Somalu or Nigerianpirates are pretty far away tho that's why I believe its funny

    It's more usefull to train against pirates in the syrian context than train to attack US navy. Terrorist used drones to attack russian base, they could easily use a drone boat to attack the erussian ships coming in the port.

    against US fleet? meh who launches Granits against US it is only good against Somalian pirates thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup or US/UK/France sponsored terrorists true , they can provide terrorists with weapons
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:29 am

    Hole wrote:
    The new Black Pearl. Laughing

    and where's new Kraken? Very Happy
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:20 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Not that funny.

    Israel almost lost a ship against hezbollah guerilla. In Yemen there were successfull attacks with single missile or even full of bombs motor boats against Saoudi supply vessels.
    not very good examples to me
    Hezbollah is by no means pirates, they are anti-Israeli resistance
    Houtis are Yemeni guerrillas fighting for independence against US/Saudi occupation


    Somalu or Nigerianpirates are pretty far away tho that's why I believe its funny

    It's more usefull to train against pirates in the syrian context than train to attack US navy. Terrorist used drones to attack russian base, they could easily use a drone boat to attack the erussian ships coming in the port.

    against US fleet? meh who launches Granits against US it is only good against Somalian pirates thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup  or US/UK/France sponsored terrorists true , they can provide terrorists with weapons

    What russian navy could face in syria is an attack by very small boats full of explosives like those Houtis launched against Saoudi ships.

    West countries won't provide full set of radars and Harpoons but rather help them build very simple weapons like the drones that are launched against russian air base.

    Anti pirate training means training against an oponent that will use unconventional and rather simple tools and not an armada of destroyers with anti ship missiles. Pirates are on the sea what guerillas are on the land. When they say anti pirate training they don't mean chasing black beard and protecting trades routes.

    So yeah, it is the most interesting and usefull aspect of those exercices.

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:50 pm

    What russian navy could face in syria is an attack by very small boats full of explosives like those Houtis launched against Saoudi ships.
    Govt controls the coast & if it hasn't happened 3 years in its unlikely to happen now.

    The recent instances of piracy nearby have all been Israel boarding, shooting & capturing the ships of unarmed peace activists attempting to provide aid to Gaza strip...
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:41 pm


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:05 pm

    @Hole
    is it about Cephalopod drone?! lol1 lol1 lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:39 pm

    Transfer of ships from Caspian to BSF continues.
    Apparently the Buyan non-M Makhachkala is moving too Shocked

    I wonder if its to do with the recent Caspian treaty, like even if not on paper there was an agreement to reduce ships?
    Or if its just the need for BSF is higher (and enabled with Caspian being quiet)
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:50 pm

    Deployment to the Sea of Azow?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:56 am

    Hole wrote:Deployment to the Sea of Azow?

    where calibers are of no use but 100mm automatic gun does make difference.

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:42 pm

    Apparently yes to Azov.
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    MarshallJukov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  MarshallJukov on Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:00 pm

    william.boutros wrote:You would need a large number of such missiles in the hundreds as was the case in desert storm.
    A dozen Buyan Class need to be gathered to equate 1 Arleigh-Bruke class in strike power.


    Not quite. Russian doctrine of use of cruise missiles in a war with an advanced enemy does not include only massive use of cruise missiles. Thats different from what US had in Iraq or Serbia, where it used those missiles to target even low-value military targets and civilian infrastructure. Russia will use them to destroy high value military assets only, thus reducing ammount of missiles needed by order of magnitude. That will leave other targets to the bombers, TBMs and artillery.
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    Also as people noted here already, small ships and boats can capitalize advantage of ~100K km Russian river ways and river ways of its allies.

    marat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  marat on Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:32 pm

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:You would need a large number of such missiles in the hundreds as was the case in desert storm.
    A dozen Buyan Class need to be gathered to equate 1 Arleigh-Bruke class in strike power.


    Not quite. Russian doctrine of use of cruise missiles in a war with an advanced enemy does not include only massive use of cruise missiles. Thats different from what US had in Iraq or Serbia, where it used those missiles to target even low-value military targets and civilian infrastructure. Russia will use them to destroy high value military assets only, thus reducing ammount of missiles needed by order of magnitude. That will leave other targets to the bombers, TBMs and artillery.
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    Also as people noted here already, small ships and boats can capitalize advantage of ~100K km Russian river ways and river ways of its allies.

    I do not see any advantage of Buyan and Karakut over one Tu-95. TU 95 needs no rivers, it had bigger range, could carry same number of CM etc etc.
    Generally rivers are no advantage at all, in case of war CM would be placed on truck TEL vehicles.

    And saying that Buyan have bigger firepower then AB is just.... Rolling Eyes
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:02 pm

    marat wrote:
    MarshallJukov wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:You would need a large number of such missiles in the hundreds as was the case in desert storm.
    A dozen Buyan Class need to be gathered to equate 1 Arleigh-Bruke class in strike power.


    Not quite. Russian doctrine of use of cruise missiles in a war with an advanced enemy does not include only massive use of cruise missiles. Thats different from what US had in Iraq or Serbia, where it used those missiles to target even low-value military targets and civilian infrastructure. Russia will use them to destroy high value military assets only, thus reducing ammount of missiles needed by order of magnitude. That will leave other targets to the bombers, TBMs and artillery.
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    Also as people noted here already, small ships and boats can capitalize advantage of ~100K km Russian river ways and river ways of its allies.

    I do not see any advantage of Buyan and Karakut over one Tu-95. TU 95 needs no rivers, it had bigger range, could carry same number of CM etc etc.
    Generally rivers are no advantage at all, in case of war CM would be placed on truck TEL vehicles.

    And saying that Buyan have bigger firepower then AB is just....  Rolling Eyes
    no comment


    Well you know the old saying, in Russia everything is opposite...so I guess in Russia eight is bigger then 90.

    The facts Buyans can go in rivers doesn't offer them a major advantage in war honestly it's a nice little thing don't get me wrong you can move them around easier sure but that won't help much in the end

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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:17 pm

    @marat, SeigSoloyvov:

    This is exactly what was said:
    As for Buyan class with AB class, actualy sincle Buyan has much higher anti-ship firepower than single AB class. That is through mere fact that Buyan uses much more advanced ASMs with much higher probability of defenses penetration.

    This makes full sense if you actually care reading. AShM onboard an AB are Harpoons unless I am very wrong. Buyans carry 3M-54T. As far as I know the first has way shorter range and is subsonic during all the flight, while the longer ranged Kalibr almost reaches 3 M in terminal approach and is logically way more difficult to intercept. ABs are meant as defensive vessels for a carrier group, with very strong AD capabilities, but as anti-ship a single Buyan could be more dangerous. This is an asymmetric way of deterrence against a much stronger USN, not a way to dominate the seas, but the threat it represents is completely credible.

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